TRPG General Chat

NautArch

7:00 PM

@DavidCoffron isn't that the same problem with any patron?

Himitsu_no_Yami

@DavidCoffron well we (as in rpg.se) have some questions that address some of these issues

David Coffron

@NautArch It's more likely to come up when the patron is a major player in the storyline

NautArch

@DavidCoffron oh whoops. very good point.

Yeah, if I was a patron and some little upstart i gave powers to comes after me....good bye powers.

Himitsu_no_Yami

For instance, mayhaps Acererak doesn't realize my warlock is his

David Coffron

@Himitsu_no_Yami That's fair. If it is a less direct pact, you remove a lot of those issues

NautArch

7:01 PM

@Himitsu_no_Yami Why do you want to have Acererak as your patron?

David Coffron

@NautArch Unless the pactis a devilish pact, because they are more bound by those than other patrons

Himitsu_no_Yami

@NautArch to spice things up a little

David Coffron

Trying to avoid spoilers, but there are some other NPCs the DM would have to think about if Acererak is the source of your power.

Himitsu_no_Yami

To address the issue of if he die and my character loses her powers we also have this question

goodguy5

oooh!

Bonus action to trip with the whip against a grapple opponent.

NautArch

7:03 PM

@Himitsu_no_Yami Which one would this fall under?

goodguy5

like a grapple and yank

Himitsu_no_Yami

@NautArch Using him as the Undying patron

NautArch

@Himitsu_no_Yami yeah, that would be the only one that makes sense.

David Coffron

> Beings of this sort include Vecna, Lord of the Hand and the Eye; the dread Iuz; the lich-queen Vol; the Undying Court of Aerenal; Vlaakith, lich-queen of the githyanki; and the deathless wizard Fistandantalus.

NautArch

I think @DavidCoffron is right. It's doable, but it's going to put a lot of work on the DM to figure out when it's going to matter more.

And it'd be reasonable for the DM to not want that.

David Coffron

7:05 PM

Acererak seems to be a suitable fit among that company

(although I think they are all a bit more powerful than Acererak in the lore)

Mm.. Maybe not; Vol and Acererak are probably comparable in their respective settings (Eberron and Realms)

kent

Oh my Silvanus if you click your chat comment you can edit it on mobile!

NautArch

25

Q: Can a patron revoke a warlock's powers?

I would like to know whether a warlock can directly confront his patron without risking to lose his powers. And generally in which case the patron is allowed can take his "gift" back. I've tries searching for relevant lore but couldn't find anything. I'm playing the 5th edition. The backstory: ...

@DavidCoffron agrees with the primary concern around devils.

David Coffron

@NautArch nods Yeah there is a lot of information in Mordenkainen's Tome of Foes about devil contracts (but it is kind of spread out through the book)

NautArch

@DavidCoffron and it does make sense that if a devil made a 'mistake' and their warlock got too powerful and took them down...well, that's part of the lifecycle.

David Coffron

@NautArch As Asmodeus has said:

> Those who struck deals with his followers and then somehow turned the contracts against the devils were freed from their debts. A contract is the law, and the law is a contract.

Mark Wells

8:04 PM

@NautArch I'm wondering if a simpler solution to that is for the whip-grab to pull the target to you, so that it's just a regular grapple

(or you to the target, if it's bigger than you)

NautArch

@MarkWells Although that also presents a risk for the whipper.

oooh...maybe treat it like a trip attack?

instead of a grapple, it's a save or prone?

and then maybe grappled as well? or is that too much (since they can't get up?)

Mark Wells

there's the Chain Devil

which has a grapple+restrain attack

or yes, treat it like a shove except you can't push them away from you. you can pull them closer, or knock them off their feet

NautArch

@MarkWells Make it a pick one? Either pull closer or knock prone? Does grappled condition still happen?

Mark Wells

trip + grapple in one attack is nasty

NautArch

yeah, it seems a little OP. Even with the smaller damage die. oooh....what about treating like GWM/SS. -5 to hit, with grapple/prone if successful?

Mark Wells

8:11 PM

I'm not sure how that makes physical sense. if it was a bolas / lasso, maybe

NautArch

yeah :/

just an idea.

Mark Wells

I could see Indy tripping someone with his whip, or yanking them to himself, but wrapping them up so they can't move is a pretty big stretch

NautArch

I like the pick one option. It gives some control opportunities and more capabilities.

The bigger issue which they haven't htought about yet is that if grappling with a whip, they no longer have a whip to attack with.

Mark Wells

yeah, again like the Chain Devil, it needs some language that while grappling with the whip you can't do anything else with it

NautArch

does that make it a grapple/prone/pull set of options? But if doing any of those, you can't use the whip?

GcL

8:16 PM

@MarkWells Isn't that what a bola is for?

NautArch

Or is the prone one a potential release?

GcL

I mean, the electronic versions are much more deadly, but that's covered in a different set of rules.

Mark Wells

@NautArch only the grappling is an ongoing effect

NautArch

@MarkWells So you can either pull toward (and release), trip (and release), or grapple at distance (lose whip until released.)

Mark Wells

@NautArch I'm still unsure about the grapple. does it keep them from closing with you?

GcL

8:19 PM

Grapple would make it a weak and very reusable version of hold person?

NautArch

@MarkWells I think it'd have to. Just so that there isn't a new mechanic introduced.

GcL

@MarkWells movement speed 0

goodguy5

oh good, we're still talking about the whip question.

GcL

whip it good

Mark Wells

@NautArch How about this then: you can pull toward, or trip. After that, if they're within 5' of you, they become grappled.

NautArch

8:20 PM

but can do everything else without a problem. Only works exceptionally well with a creature without a ranged attack.

@MarkWells with the whip?

Mark Wells

yeah

NautArch

@MarkWells could you trip and step forward?

that bypasses the need to pull

GcL

@MarkWells Auto grapple in addition to damage? or hit to grapple instead of damage?

Mark Wells

@GcL "auto" in that you have to succeed on the contest to pull/trip them

GcL

@MarkWells So attack + free grapple action?

Mark Wells

8:23 PM

Isn't all of this instead of doing a normal attack?

goodguy5

Normal 'attack', not normal 'Attack Action'

Mark Wells

I'm just looking at that as a solution to the "grappled while out of reach, now you can't touch me" problem

GcL

Yeah. If the feat got upped to actual grapple, that would be an issue.

Extreme Whipcracker: Adam Winrich

►

V2Blast

Weird. The page numbers listed there for the "basic rules" are usually wrong... It seems the sources take a certain order of precedence, so if something appears in the basic rules, that's what's listed there - but if it also appears in the PHB/DMG/MM, then the backend system seems to include that as a source as well.
If there's no page number for the basic rules entry (which I think there never is, since it was before DDB started actively citing page numbers for sources), but there is a page number for another source it appears in, then DDB seems to show "Basic Rules" but displays the page …

goodguy5

@GcL that's bonkers

NautArch

8:37 PM

@V2Blast yeah, i've usually found it to be (i think) Basic Rules if it's available, page number of the actual book (PHB/DMG/MM)

V2Blast

@Kevin As NautArch said, question mismatches/opposites between title and body is a semi-common problem that's easily solved. I'd just edit one to match the other (usually sticking to the more straightforward phrasing, or the version addressed by existing answers - which is usually the question in the body).

@NautArch Weirdly, no 5e book even has 397 pages

David Coffron

If I get a new answer of score 40 (ala the Guru badge) will I get the Scarf Ace hat, or will it not work since I already have the badge?

KorvinStarmast

@MarkWells sounds like a battle master, and there is a feat that borrows from battle master already

It is called Martial Adept

V2Blast

@NautArch Found it... it's on p. 397 of the SRD (since it's not actually in the basic rules)

The Bandit statblock cites " Basic Rules , pg. 162 ", which is actually accurate; it's on p. 162 of the 2018 basic rules PDF

KorvinStarmast

@V2Blast The numbering on the original basic rules, player and the basic rules of 2018 don't always match up.

The original basic rules were broken up into basic rules (player) and basic rules(DM)

@V2Blast Oh, yeah, that too.

V2Blast

8:48 PM

@DavidCoffron Appendix A of Descent into Avernus is also entirely about "diabolical deals" and how they work

NautArch

@V2Blast ugh. guess i'll be doublechecking all page number citations moving forward.

V2Blast

It's really mostly only an issue with DDB entries that cite the "basic rules" along with a page number. This is the first time I've seen it refer to an SRD page number, since it doesn't usually refer a basic rules page number either; generally it refers to the page number in the PHB or MM as appropriate. (I think this issue has also happened with some of the monster statblocks in OOTA that were reprinted in MTOF, since OOTA entries on DDB didn't have page numbers.)

NautArch

@V2Blast that's quite a lot of them, though.

ALthough mostly the basic rules stuff does align with the actual PHB/MM/DMG numbers.

THis was really the first time I noticed it didn't.

V2Blast

tbh I'm pretty sure it's been the case for a while, and quite a lot of them aren't the same page number between the basic rules/SRD and the other book. I guess it's more likely to be farther off the mark with MM page references than with PHB page references?

NautArch

@goodguy5 I did not notice tavern brawler can throw an improvised weapon to grapple.

Someone_Evil

9:04 PM

@NautArch That seems... incorrect

NautArch

@Someone_Evil Not gonna disagree.

"When you hit a creature with an unarmed strike or an improvised weapon on your turn, you can use a bonus action to attempt to grapple the target."

melee weapon attack is not stated.

so I could throw an improvised weapon and grapple RAW. Im planning on taking the feat next level, but no way am I gonna ask a DM to rule in favor that.

Someone_Evil

But the target needs to be within your reach for grapple to work

Himitsu_no_Yami

you guys remember that dice roller program I was making on my calculator before?

Someone_Evil

So you can throw a cup at an enemy, and then run up and grapple them as a bonus action

NautArch

Ah, so then the standard grapple rules apply @Someone_Evil?

Someone_Evil

9:06 PM

@NautArch If you are trying to grapple someone, the rules innate to the grapple condition applies, yes

Himitsu_no_Yami

I've come up with some improvements to it. I've got it working to reroll 1s either infinitely or just once each

NautArch

@Someone_Evil makes sense. I commented this chat to goodguy's answer.

Someone_Evil

Tavern Brawler is actually irrelephant, it just lets you make a "standard" grapple attempt as a bonus action. That grappling requires the target to be "within your reach". This might deserve a full question on main, if we haven't got one already.

David Coffron

V2Blast

9:23 PM

Yes. It doesn't ignore the rules for grappling outside of action economy.

NautArch

@Someone_Evil I'm not sure your change to the Grappler feat question was good...that seems to be asking for ideas now.

Someone_Evil

@NautArch If it's this question, I only materially changed the title and tags

V2Blast

The body of the post already asks essentially that question; the title just matches it now

NautArch

@Someone_Evil yeah, the body makes it clear they're trying to squeeze more out of it, not ideate.

Someone_Evil

I feel like there is some distinction I'm not seeing

NautArch

9:29 PM

@Someone_Evil How can I use the tools given to make this good vs how can i change the tools to make this good?

V2Blast

true. it's about making better use of the feat (or trying to)

NautArch

@V2Blast heh, was just working on that edit. nicely done!

Someone_Evil

Ahh.. I see how that title could have be read as idea generation. Good new one, V2!

Himitsu_no_Yami

So, I have reason to suspect our party is about to fight a beholder tomorrow. Any tips for fighting it? We're all magic users, and 3 of the 4 of us are casters

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Someone_Evil

9:46 PM

@Himitsu_no_Yami Try to sweet-talk it? Remember Beholders love themselves. (I mean look at them, who wouldn't?)

Yuuki

@Someone_Evil Beauty is in the eye of the beholder and beholders have so many eyes, therefore they have a lot of beauty.

Someone_Evil

Exactly

NautArch

@Himitsu_no_Yami Try to get it in melee/weapon range and keep it there.

If the DM is smart, they'll do what they can to keep out of weapon range.

Yuuki

@NautArch Is it because they have poor hand-eye coordination?

NautArch

And try to find something to make yourself unable to be seen.

Himitsu_no_Yami

9:48 PM

Only one of our characters uses a weapon to any effect at all

NautArch

whether magical or mundane, if the beholder can't see you, their options are limited.

you're also going to probably want to split up if you're all magic users. If the anti-magic cone is facing one, you'll want the others outside of it.

Himitsu_no_Yami

Let's see if it can stand up to my patented darkness/devil's sight combo

NautArch

Any of y'all have greater invisiblity?

@Himitsu_no_Yami it'll just turn the AMF on the darkness.

booom, no darkness

Himitsu_no_Yami

shhh I'm hoping it'll think the othes are more worth turning AMF on

NautArch

running a beholder is fun, but it's hard because they're just not right in the head. Hard to play that.

Himitsu_no_Yami

9:53 PM

No, they're right in the head, it's everyone else who's not right in the head

Xirema

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ACuriousMind

@NautArch I often find villains with alien mindsets easier to play than villains that are "reasonable" from a common point of view. You don't need to logic your way into them.

SmokeDetector

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Himitsu_no_Yami

So our current part consists of 4 level 11s. One is pure Warlock of the Fiend. One is level 6 Life Cleric/level 5 Celestial Warlock. One is level 11 Land Druid. The last is a level 2 fighter (defense style)/level 9 necromancer Wizard. Most of the wizards damage comes from using a +1 greatsword with Booming Blade and having skeletons shoot arrows

oh and the wizard has a 23 STR and 18 INT

Someone_Evil

10:10 PM

@Himitsu_no_Yami That is one beefy wizard

Himitsu_no_Yami

the STR comes from the spirit inhabiting his body rn (ToA stuff)

If we survive the Beholder encounter we should level up again

or wait no nevermind

I forgot we're dividing XP

Xirema

Ahh, Tomb of Annihilation. When the DM says to themselves "you know, I think it's time to kill the PCs, but I want to make it look like an accident".

Himitsu_no_Yami

So, given what I've said about the party makeup is melee still the best idea? Pretty sure Beholders can fly

NautArch

They hover, and slowly

Himitsu_no_Yami

also, how do cones work with the third dimension? especially on a 2D board?

NautArch

10:18 PM

Not sure how the beholder is set up in the tomb, but it should likely start 150' above you :)

Can any of you fly?

Himitsu_no_Yami

@NautArch You're just outright trying to kill us aren't you

@NautArch The two warlocks can

Someone_Evil

@NautArch Depends on how hard you throw them

NautArch

It's crazy, not stupid

Himitsu_no_Yami

also here's how the room is described (after the door is opened, before anyone stepped into the room)

The vault door grinds upward, revealing a domed, candlelit room fifty feet high. The polished marble floor is so perfectly reflective that it creates the illusion of standing at the entrance to a sphere. Nine alcoves filled with glittering treasure open up along the walls. In the middle of the chamber, a large spherical object hovers under a black silk drape twenty feet above the floor.

Someone_Evil

@Himitsu_no_Yami With great difficulty. 5e, grids and z-axises do not all fit into the same room

Xirema

10:21 PM

@Himitsu_no_Yami I believe it's just a 53° arc in a direction of the DM's choosing.

Yuuki

@Himitsu_no_Yami Wait, is the beholder like a (stereotypical not realistic) ostrich? Throw a blanket on top of it and it goes completely still because nothing exists?

Someone_Evil

@Yuuki I'd love to see you try

Xirema

If the DM wants to deal with the trigonometry of the z-axis, that's their mistake they need to make for themselves.

Yuuki

@Someone_Evil The question isn't about trying, it's about whether the beholder is that large spherical object hovering under a black silk drape twenty feet above the floor.

Himitsu_no_Yami

Should I attack the drape?

NautArch

10:26 PM

Try not to metagame it too much

Himitsu_no_Yami

@NautArch yeah, I'm asking for ideas on tactics not answers about the game itself ;)

NautArch

And I don't think you can Target the drape with EB.

Himitsu_no_Yami

the DM has let me target objects with EB and anything that requires an attack roll

NautArch

Oh, well then I guess you can

Xirema

10:43 PM

EB does have the same [lack of] stipulation as some other cantrips that prevents it from targeting objects, but as a DM, I struggle to come up with a good reason to not allow it to be used on objects, except for the RAW-fact that it can't.

Like, Poison Spray I get: "poison" generally can't do anything to objects, and the spell doesn't create anything that persists beyond the moment the spell is cast.

BESW

There's plenty of precedent in D&D for magic that only affects living things, to the extent that a physical justification is unnecessary. Eldritch Bolt may simply be targeting life force rather than flesh.

Carcer

11:01 PM

@V2Blast thanks for the DDB link on the Sword of Zariel question, that's one of the ones I don't happen to have access to on DDB.

@BESW but it does "force damage"

uh, which is defined as "pure magical energy focused into a damaging form"

there are other kinds of damage you could plausibly describe as hurting "life force" directly, like necrotic damage or maybe even psychic damage or whatever.

anyway the point is D&D is terrible

Himitsu_no_Yami

So my friend made an account and is trying to get into the chat and he's got the 20 rep but it's doing something weird

his username is Akira_Kurusu but when he goes from the main rpg.se page (where he's signed in) to the chat it switches to "user51091" and he can't chat

Akira_Kurusu

I figured it out just now, actually.

Himitsu_no_Yami

Well, whatever was going on it appears to have worked now... /shrug

Akira_Kurusu

For the record, I'm the aforementioned "beefy wizard"

2

BESW

Welcome!

Akira_Kurusu

11:12 PM

Hey! Thank you.

Someone_Evil

@Akira_Kurusu Out of interest, how did you fix it?

Akira_Kurusu

Well, every time I would go to chat.stackexchange.com, it would log me out of my RPG Stack Exchange account and log me in to a placeholder account called "user51091." I noticed after clicking on everything that there's a "Change" option, which I assumed was to change your name? But it actually lets you change to a stack exchange account.

Someone_Evil

Neat. That might be useful to know if someone else has the same problem in future

Akira_Kurusu

Yeah, it's definitely good to keep in mind! But if someone does have that problem in the future, they won't really be able to say because they can't speak in the chat.

ACuriousMind

@Akira_Kurusu The "change" option changes your "parent site". Normally that shouldn't affect chat privileges, but if you only recently gained enough rep to chat, it forces chat to reload your reputation value instead of reading from a cache, so that probably made chat recognize you actually are allowed to chat.

Akira_Kurusu

11:20 PM

I just happened to have Himitsu to ask.

@ACuriousMind Ah I gotcha. I just made this account today, so that makes sense.

nitsua60

11:59 PM

@ACuriousMind shouldiblamecaching.com

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