TRPG General Chat

12:03 AM

Brb, getting popcorn

The most quoted section of RAW, with a big "LOOK! The RULES say THIS!!!", at our old aD&D table was "You don't have to follow the rules" :D
The answer to any "What does the rule-book say ...?" was answered with "The rule-book says... that you don't have to do what the rule-book says!!!" ... ah, to be 15 again ! :D

NautArch

12:26 AM

I'm gonna let someone else link to the related RAW metas <shudders>

BESW

> (Who makes the rules?)
Someone else
Who makes the rules?
(Someone else)

The rules are written in the stone
Break the rules and you get no bones
All you get is ridicule, laughter
And a trip to the house of pain!
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FCRl3yznJ5I

Xirema

@Yuuki Okay, I checked, it turns out that I was off by a magnitude in the heat produced by my Copper Volcano. It was around 2000C, not 1000C.

Not sure it makes a difference, but there it is. XD

Black Spike

For a moment, I thought that was gonna be a rewrite of Beyonce: Who Run The World?.
I have been know to do such rewrites ...

BESW

Nope, Oingo Boingo's classic Island of Doctor Moreau homage.

Black Spike

@BESW yup. I just had a listen. I like.

BESW

12:39 AM

I do confess to a fondness for filk, though.

One of the (many, many) things I love about Narbonic/Skin Horse is that the fandom sometimes hits a stride where they churn out a new filk for each daily strip.

Black Spike

@BESW I don't know 'filk'. Just googled it. I probably know some ... without knowing that it was a genre!

BESW

I'm probably showing my age with that term.

Black Spike

:)

Age is just a number.

The number of years since you were born!! :D

BESW

Black Spike

My current fad is Gloryhammer. Scottish cheese-metal. Turned up to Camembert

BESW

12:45 AM

For the last few years I've been mostly alternating between Janelle Monáe and Bob Dylan.

Black Spike

tbh, I dropped out of the music scene a long time ago .. :( can't find anything new that excites me. Apart from GH.

Never liked Bob Dylan

Heavy Metal died at the end of the '80s. Its rotting corpse still stumbles along, fuelled by Celtic/Scandinavian Necro-metal-that-man-should-not-know.

BESW

I listened to a lot of Blind Guardian a decade ago.

user15026

@BlackSpike that is good stuff

user15026

@BESW ooh yes also good stuff

user15026

@BESW whaaaaaat omg

V2Blast

12:52 AM

https://www.epicgames.com/store/en-US/collection/free-games-collection
Alan Wake's American Nightmare and >observer_ are free to get on the Epic Games Store until October 24 (after which QUBE 2 and Layers of Fear: Masterpiece Edition will be free for a week).

@Yuuki Reminds me of that quote from the first episode of Red vs. Blue:

Black Spike

@BESW I missed them

BESW

@Ash Check it out.

MikeQ

@V2Blast Given the newest UA, I am no longer concerned about homebrew ideas being too silly for 5e

V2Blast

> Simmons: Hey.
Grif: Yeah?
Simmons: You ever wonder why we’re here?
Grif: It's one of life's great mysteries isn't it? Why are we here? I mean, are we the product of some cosmic coincidence, or is there really a God watching everything? You know, with a plan for us and stuff. I don't know, man, but it keeps me up at night.
[Both stare at each other in silence.]
Simmons: ...What?! I mean why are we out here, in this canyon?
Grif: Oh. Uh... yeah.
Simmons: What was all that stuff about God?
Grif: Uh...hm? Nothing.

@MikeQ lol. I have yet to check out the latest UA (or the previous one actually)

BESW

@Ash Although, you know as well as anyone that it's not really possible to pin me down to a particular musical niche.

Digable Planets, Lake Street Dive, Buffy Sainte-Marie, Squirrel Nut Zippers...

Miniman

12:56 AM

@MikeQ I just wish they could stick to a single idea.

Rune Knight! ...plus random giant-related stuff

Rune Knight! ...plus random giant-related stuff.

Black Spike

I was an '80s metalhead. NWOBHM. I diversified into ska, reggae, and eventually folk (uk), folk (usa - i think they call it 'country'). And a whole load of other semi-random stuff

Miniman

Memories of past lives! ...plus you're undead-ish, plus you have random death related powers.

MikeQ

@Miniman Yeah, it's hard to tell what the intended design goal for those subclasses

Miniman

Bees! ...okay they did stick to their theme here, it's just mechanically very boring.

MikeQ

What does the rune knight achieve that other characters don't? Something something runes and norse mythology, maybe?

Miniman

12:59 AM

@MikeQ I kinda like the passive/active pattern.

MikeQ

@Miniman Boring? Covering yourself in angry magical bees as a battle strategy? That's boring?

Miniman

Although it would be more impactful/interesting if activating turned off the passive.

Black Spike

I'm not a big fan of all the multi-sub-extra classes.

BESW

@MikeQ Well now I just want to make a knight that's a rune from Clockwork Boys.

Miniman

@MikeQ Mechanically boring, I said. And since the mechanic is just "you do minor extra damage", yes, it's extremely boring.

Black Spike

1:00 AM

You can do a lot with Base Classes, if the GM is flexible. No need to have a super-specialised "i have a slight minor-difference to that other super-niche class"

I know Companies need to keep churning out Content. But I'd rather it be Setting material (fluff, not 'hardware')

BESW

"TTRPG Marketing Q&A," by DungeonCommandr.

MikeQ

@Miniman They also maneuver creatures on a hit. Plus at later levels, you can use the bees as transport, or a messenger/teleportation service

Joel Harmon

@BlackSpike I'd say that there is some difference in the US between folk, country, bluegrass, and western. Not sure where I'd draw the line on any particular thing, but that's just how genres in general go.

Black Spike

@JoelHarmon You're probably right, but there's a big pond in the way, some nuances get lost. There are no hard-fast lines.

Joel Harmon

@BlackSpike What with most people doing their interacting via the internet these days, I think the presence or absence of ponds between locations to be less meaningful than it was even 30 years ago. If you're really into XYZ music, you can read all about it online and watch tons of videos.

Black Spike

1:11 AM

(pet peeve, as a metal-head. 1,000 sub-genres! death, speed, power, thrash, dark, gothic, celtic, nordic, folk, punk, green, electro, garden, car, ... i can just keep typing words, you'll find a Metal band that plays it! And gets annoyed if you mis-type them!)

@JoelHarmon it has definitely changed a lot. But geo-location has not completely disappeared.

Joel Harmon

A friend once pointed me at a doctoral thesis on the subtle differences between Metal, Thrash Metal, Death Metal, Christian Metal, etc.

BESW

...and Freak Kitchen's "Freak of the Week" just came up on my randomized-favorites playlist.

Black Spike

@JoelHarmon I used to be able to point at examples of how a single band moved between several genres on each album. possibly within one song ...

Joel Harmon

@BlackSpike Is Bhoemian Rhapsody cheating for that one?

V2Blast

lol

Black Spike

1:15 AM

@JoelHarmon :D no, quite the opposite! Are Queen glam-rock? or some other sub-genre? (possibly "Queen" genre ... but they changed, different albums, different sounds .. "Early Queen", "Late Queen" , )

user15026

@BESW omg perfect

Joel Harmon

@BlackSpike I meant that for changing genres within one song.

user15026

@BESW its one of the many things I love about you

MikeQ

@BlackSpike You're probably right. I think there are some subclass/character ideas that could be explored, but given how the latest ones seem to be rehashes of old ideas, perhaps it's time they focus on a different style of product. Perhaps new creatures, hazards, or items to try out.

user15026

I have learned a lot of music through you

Black Spike

1:16 AM

"Early Bohemian Rhapsody" genre ... "BH chorus" ...

@MikeQ back in my "Fanzine" days, we used to talk of 'hardware'. New races, classes, magic items, Dungeons, stuff-with-numbers-and-rules. As opposed to (i forget what we called it) fluff/setting.

V2Blast

@BESW Ooh, the animation of that video is so cool

MikeQ

@BlackSpike Oh, so maybe each release would have some setting info and a small quest? Like a one-shot worth of adventure ideas?

BESW

@V2Blast They crowd-funded it!

Black Spike

@MikeQ something like that, yes. Some Adventure Hooks, plots and schemes that the PCs -could- get involved in ...

maybe a (potential) time-line ... here is how things will probably go, if no Plucky Adventurers stick their oar in ...

MikeQ

@BlackSpike Given that they're a real company, I'd expect to see enough material that I could use to build an adventure. By people who write adventures professionally. None of that "100 vague plot hook ideas without followup". I can do that myself.

BESW

1:25 AM

@Ash I need to listen to more music while I work.

For folx on Discord, I've got my Spotify linked up to it so you can see/hear what I'm listening to.

Black Spike

@MikeQ Needs details in there. Put some work in, yes.

part of my interest is on a balance between Big Picture and Small Detail ... I don't want ULTIMATE DETAIL, as it leaves me no room to manoeuvre, -some- detail. Some gaps.

Miniman

1:43 AM

@MikeQ I haven't had the chance to use it yet, but a Random Guy On The Internet wrote a city setting that I think really nails that line.

And then I went back and reread SCAG, and it really is just...vague and kinda useless.

nitsua60

@Miniman I dunno... I kinda like the Sun Soul Monk. That's, like, a page and a half, right?

[ducks a room's worth of thrown SCAGs]

MikeQ

@nitsua60 Each copy of SCAG does 1d4+STR bludgeoning

nitsua60

I don't know--they were kinda thin and flimsy, too. Maybe just 1+STR?

Joel Harmon

@MikeQ Well sure, but the range penalty to accuracy makes us all miss.

MikeQ

@JoelHarmon Not if you went kensei monk, and chose books as a kensei weapon

Miniman

1:49 AM

@nitsua60 I like a few of the SCAG classes, and the ones I don't at least aren't wildly problematic for the game (looking at you, XGtE).

nitsua60

@JoelHarmon You don't know my size class, though:

25

A: Can you see the moon with the spot skill?

The very first line of the skill description reads (roughly translated, I don't own an english book) You use the spot skill to find characters or creatures that are trying to hide. So yes, if the moon was a living being actively trying to hide, you would get a huge negative modifier. As the...

MikeQ

@Miniman It is indeed vague setting-wise. As someone who prefers short adventures, I'd much rather have a constrained and localized area, with one or several potential quests in it

Miniman

But over 75% of the book is just pointless. And let's be honest, it's not a big book.

nitsua60

@Miniman I'd have been much better served by a one-page pdf consisted of thirty lines each of the form "you want to know about the Moonshaes? Read *Darkwalker on Moonshae.*//you want to know about The Spine of the World? Read *The Crystal Shard*//you want to know about Elminster? Get out. Stop it. Just go back to playing 3.5."

Miniman

@nitsua60 I think you mean "if you want to know about the Spine of the World, play Neverwinter Nights". Preeeeetty sure.

Joel Harmon

1:56 AM

@Miniman I wouldn't say pointless. It does a good job of providing a high-level background on a classic adventure world. If you're having trouble coming up with interesting cultures, traditions, etc, then it could be a boon. Or maybe you just need something to throw at nits.

Miniman

@JoelHarmon Well, obviously I needed things to throw at nits.

nitsua60

\o/

MikeQ

The hardback cover edition has several points, although they don't increase the damage

Miniman

I guess I just struggle with the inherent paradox of "we trust DMs to fill in the blanks, but not to come up with stuff themselves".

@MikeQ Noice.

MikeQ

@Miniman Yeah, coming up with big floaty worldbuilding ideas isn't too hard. It takes more skill to map and design a functional dungeon, with balanced encounters, that works well within the system.

Miniman

1:58 AM

Whoa. What if 1d4 damage is the amount of damage done by a d4, and the fact that you can quantitatively measure it with a d4 is a crazy cosmic conincidence?

nitsua60

@Miniman I assume that there's just such a variety in what GMs find helpful that I'm not going to find >50% of what's published really does anything for me.

For me, I'm happiest with "here's 100 random plot hooks." Which thirty lines ago is what @MikeQ said was the last thing they wanted.

MikeQ

@nitsua60 Having a list of plot hooks isn't useless. But it requires very little effort to make. I would expect something more substantive coming from professional game designers.

nitsua60

Good luck writing/publishing for an industry that wants to get their money and mine =)

Miniman

@nitsua60 That's probably fair. There are people out there who think Rangers are OP, so really anything is possible.

nitsua60

@MikeQ Fair point. Like, modular rulesets.

BESW

2:00 AM

@nitsua60 This is, I think, one of the reasons D&D is successful at being okay for so many people, but not great for very many.

nitsua60

[ducks thrown 5e design drafts]

BESW

They spread themselves really thin.

Miniman

@nitsua60 Yeah, but you don't like more crunch, so good luck to anyone trying to get your money at all.

Joel Harmon

@Miniman I can write a decent Mad Libs, but not a decent novel.

Miniman

@BESW You know, it never occurred to me - from that point of view, 5e is actually incredibly successful design.

BESW

2:02 AM

Also, what does "professional" mean in this context?

Joel Harmon

@nitsua60 Some of my most-used pages of the DW book during a game are the lists of 100 things like names and quirks.

BESW

It seems to be used as a stand-in for "skilled" or "experienced" but that's very much a different beast.

nitsua60

@Miniman I like plenty of crunch. I'm currently playing a minotaur barbarian who has suplexed cultists, party members, a mind flayer, a manticore, a boat, a beholder, and as of last night: a shark.

Things go crunch all the time =)

Joel Harmon

@nitsua60 But have you ever been so mad, you suplexed a train?

BESW

@Miniman When your product is already head-and-shoulders the default for the medium, you just have to not actively drive people away to your competitors.

Joel Harmon

2:05 AM

@BESW Based on questions we see around here, many people are unaware that D&D has competitors.

nitsua60

(I did not jump the shark. I may have lashed fighting fish to its pectoral fins, cast dominate beast on it, and sent it to the throne room to triple-attack the baron. Once with its jaws, twice with its accessory beasts.)

Alright--night, all.

BESW

@JoelHarmon Exactly. In order to be a commercial success D&D doesn't have to be meeting peoples' needs exactly, it just has to be non-abrasive enough that people don't wonder if there are alternatives.

Joel Harmon

@nitsua60 Good night!

MikeQ

@nitsua60 Yeah, re: my earlier point, the professional factor is relevant here. There's prestige associated with a corporate logo, and it should make me expect professional-grade products. Brainstorming isn't a professional-grade skill. If a game design company tries to sell me unpolished and untested ideas, then I as a consumer will lose respect for their ability to produce well-designed products.

Miniman

@BESW Oh, I was very aware it was a commercial success. I just mean that it hadn't occurred to me that that was a design goal that they had and met.

Although saying that out loud, I struggle to believe it was completely deliberate.

Joel Harmon

2:06 AM

@BESW It also self-advertises as "tweak what you want!" and "we're good at different things! We have pillars!!"

You can also safely ignore large swathes of the rule sets, like the grapple rules.

nitsua60

@JoelHarmon You can ignore them. At your peril.

}:D

Joel Harmon

@nitsua60 They never really grabbed me, though.

MikeQ

@JoelHarmon That's because grappling is unreliable and usually a suboptimal choice

nitsua60

@MikeQ Yeah, I can see that. Though the fact that their products have basically been retreads makes me already question a lot of that "produce well-designed products."

Joel Harmon

@MikeQ Are you trying to pin down the problems there?

BESW

2:09 AM

@MikeQ I still don't know what "professional" means here. I find the quality of material in D&D to be, overall, aggressively sub-par compared to independent and mostly self-taught creators like Brandon Dixon or Dee Pennyway or Kienna S--in terms of text clarity, layout quality, system coherence, pretty much any metric you'd want to apply except volume.

Joel Harmon

@nitsua60 I think judging "well designed products" really requires knowing the design goals.

BESW

But many of the people who work on D&D have been working in the TTRPG field for longer, more visibly, on more projects, with bigger budgets, than any of the people I mentioned.

Joel Harmon

Hello and welcome, @user12217235 !

BESW

"Professional" seems to be standing in for some more quality in this conversation.

@user12217235 Hi! You'll need 20+ rep to type in chat, but you're welcome to hang out until then.

MikeQ

@BESW I don't have a solid definition for "professional" game design skills, but it has to do with incorporating gameplay and game design experience in order to design further products. Anything mechanical should be somewhat informed by knowledge of how the system dynamics work, and should be tested to some extent.

Joel Harmon

2:12 AM

@BESW I think "Professional" here means the face value of the word; someone who gets paid to do this kind of thing full time. The expectation is that it's somehow higher quality, but that doesn't always pan out.

user15026

@MikeQ Do you mean further as in interating on the thing, like edition wise, or like a series, or like....what?

user15026

I feel like this is a weird flex of "these people get to do it full time for money, thus their thing is better" which...I don't think is a fair metric

user15026

It's like when people go "oh self-published books all suck"

MikeQ

It is a semi-reasonable expectation, but no it does not apply in practice

Joel Harmon

@Ash There's a good corollary here with open source software...

BESW

2:13 AM

@JoelHarmon Yeah, that's kind of my point here: a lot of the work done on D&D is by people who, by the "been paid to do this full time for a long time" metric, are some of the most professional people in the industry. And yet, it's the independent hobbyists unaffiliated with any company who I see producing the most amazingly "professional" modern TTRPG material.

MikeQ

There are plenty of terrible designers who are paid to do it anyway, and plenty of skilled designers who are much more qualified for aforementioned payment

user15026

@JoelHarmon I used the self-pub books because I read a lot of romance, most of which is self-pub, and people get all precious because OMG it's not like done by a REAL publisher (note they never mean Harlequin or Silhouette, even though those are "real" publishers)

BESW

So instead of saying "this should be more professional" (it already is, it's the most professional) how about calling for whatever qualities we want to see, specifically and by name?

user15026

@BESW I like a lot of hte indie stuff because they're not like...penned in by what the things SHOULD be

Joel Harmon

@BESW The only thing I can guess here is they do a whole bunch of market research, then basically design by committee. That would get you to the whole "does many things pretty reasonably" aspect, but it lacks focus and coherency. It's literally up to the DMs to customize and cannibalize the system to make it into what their tables want.

MikeQ

2:17 AM

@Ash So it's more like "these people get to do it full time for money, thus I expect that they spent that time creating a high-quality product"

That doesn't mean that unpaid work implies low quality

user15026

It still feels like a weirdly stacked metric to me

Joel Harmon

At any rate, editions 3.5, 4, and 5 each have a discussion of at least six player types, so they are at least aware of that kind of variation in their audience. I can only suppose they also cater to it.

I couldn't imagine them having an intro saying "You may want a [mystery/horror/romance/whatever] game. If so, put this book down; it's not for you."

BESW

@JoelHarmon In the 3.5 handbook it actually DOES say to ignore the rules if you want a political intrigue or romance game. It outright admits that the system is not designed for those things... but in the same breath assumes you're still going to use D&D, doesn't allow room for alternatives, it just says "yeah, you're on your own for the stuff we don't care about but keep using our rules when they're applicable!"

user15026

I mean I get it, they want to sell things, but boooo anyhow

Joel Harmon

The 3.5 DMG has a table for Futuristic Weapons, like laser pistols and antimatter rifles (page 146 for the morbidly curious).

Miniman

2:23 AM

@JoelHarmon So does the 5e DMG. And both of those tables are a waste of paper and ink.

BESW

This is the same philosophy that leads 5e to say that lazily unclear rules text is a feature because it gives GMs space to make the game their own.

MikeQ

I suppose the "professional" aspect is more about the promise and expectation. Their corporate identity tells me (the consumer) that their products are designed by experienced folks who know the strengths and weaknesses of their system, and have a keen sense of what does and doesn't work. So that's the quality I expect to be sold. Independent developers can't really promise that (even if their material ends up better than the corporate-made stuff).

Miniman

@MikeQ But you're still describing theoretical patterns that aren't borne out by the actual results at all.

MikeQ

How so?

user15026

@MikeQ I am still struggling with what you're trying to say, because I feel like you contradict yourself a bunch here

MikeQ

2:28 AM

@Ash Possibly. What's the contradiction?

Miniman

15 mins ago, by MikeQ

It is a semi-reasonable expectation, but no it does not apply in practice

user15026

That professional means better except it doesnt but it should but it is better than non-professional things for existing except when it is not

MikeQ

@Ash Professional means I expect better quality. It doesn't determine the quality.

user15026

Okay, but it feels like you're using that word to as a metric saying that things are better if they're professional, like you're dismissing things that aren't that

BESW

One of the 3.0 devs proudly said that the wizard class was badly designed because he'd been the one playtesting it and he'd been deliberately playing with mediocre Intelligence because roleplaying.

user15026

2:32 AM

A lot of the things you purport to want...you can find in "unprofessional" things, and done much better than the professional things

user15026

But you seem to be dismissing them because they're not backed by whatever big name thingie

BESW

That's not the sign of a company presenting itself as experts in system design, it's a company presenting itself as "folks like you" who are interested in playing the system more than crafting it.

And I'm still pretty sure "professional" isn't the best word for this. Maybe "corporate" or "big budget."

MikeQ

@Ash Sure, sometimes independent amateurs can make really good stuff. But if I the consumer don't know anything about them, then how can I know what quality to expect?

user15026

I don't know why having a giant name on it makes it better

user15026

I mean part of that is that I'm horrible for avoiding big name stuff because it generally lets me down with narrow vision of what's possible

BESW

2:39 AM

'cause people like Brandon Dixon and Dee Pennyway are getting paid for their work, and some of them are managing to turn it into a full-time job. They're just not working for a games company.

MikeQ

Having a well-known name indicates something like "Hey, we're the team who have been designing games for the past X years. We're successful at it. We probably know our stuff."

user15026

@MikeQ Really?

Miniman

@MikeQ Perhaps because, unlike most big companies, they often give you a way to preview it? Or even just give it to you for free?

@MikeQ Examples?

MikeQ

@Ash That's what it promises. Doesn't mean that the stuff is as good as they say.

user15026

@MikeQ ......augh, see that's where I keep getting frustrated, you say "big name does x" and then "Except it doesnt'

user15026

2:40 AM

so...if it doesn't, why are you still so willing to trust it over not-big-named thing?

BESW

Ah yes, the well-known high-quality products of long-time game design companies like... [rummages through notes] White Wolf?

user15026

This feels weirdly akin to a kicked puppy sort of relationship style

BESW

@Miniman Or people write reviews, or they publish Lets Play materials on vlogs and podcasts...

MikeQ

@Ash Trust can be lost when the company continuously fails to live up to the quality it promises.

Apr 20 '18 at 18:35, by Mike Q

[glares angrily at paizo]

Miniman

@BESW Or they get real crazy and tell you about their design goals and how they tried to fulfill them.

user15026

2:44 AM

....right, so why are you still doing the thing where you assume that they're better than a nonprofessional thing?

user15026

Because it feels like that's what you're doing

user15026

and I am confused by it

MikeQ

I'm assuming that they have the resources and potential to produce something better

BESW

@Miniman OMG have you seen what Brandon Dixon is doing with Swordsfall? The process documentation is just jaw-droppingly comprehensive, it's a game-changing resource for TTRPG creators at every level of the industry.

user15026

Right, but you keep saying they don't do that

user15026

2:46 AM

Admittedly, I play mostly "simple" PWYW oneshot stuff with my gaming group, but honestly, I've had more fun with the "hey this is free or cheap" games than I ever had with D&D etc because they actually have room to tell....all kinds of stories, or they suit all kinds of moods or abilities, etc

Miniman

@BESW I haven't! I find it a bit depressing actually reading about this stuff because I never end up playing it.

BESW

That's fair. I have so many things on my to-play list.

user15026

I love and hate when y'all talk about indie games you're keeping tabs on because invaraibly I wanna platy wme all

user15026

I need to make preople platy morew games with me

nitsua60

@Ash Because "better" vs. "good enough" is a different set of scales for everyone. Some enjoy seeking and discovering and trying new things. Others would rather stick with what's comfortable. For some the "cost" of a night's trying out a new system is no cost at all--it's a delightful benefit. For others that a big cost to bear, and a candidate has to present overwhelmingly well to surmount the barrier that "good enough" presents.

V2Blast

2:51 AM

@Ash And I need to play more games with people! :)

user15026

(sorry, myy fingers are being not cooerateing)

user15026

(I'd fix the mistrakes but htey'd likely spawn new mistkaes)

V2Blast

@nitsua60 I feel like I need to be in a certain mindset to try out a new system, whereas I'm usually able to play a game I've played before regardless of mindset

@Ash Hehe. Reminds me of Muphry's Law.

Muphry's law

Muphry's law is an adage that states: "If you write anything criticizing editing or proofreading, there will be a fault of some kind in what you have written." The name is a deliberate misspelling of "Murphy's law". Names for variations on the principle have also been coined, usually in the context of online communication, including: Umhoefer's or Umhöfer's rule: "Articles on writing are themselves badly written." Named after editor Joseph A. Umhoefer. Skitt's law: "Any post correcting an error in another post will contain at least one error itself." Named after Skitt, a contributor to alt.usage...

user15026

@V2Blast I like tihgs

MikeQ

@nitsua60 Fundamentally I'm implying that some things are better or worse designed than other things. And experience is usually a factor in good design, although it is not a guarantee.

It's less so a matter of the consumer's preferences of comfortable vs new

nitsua60

2:54 AM

For me 80%-90% of my enjoyment of a night's gaming comes from doing anything with a group of friends. So I'll never not play D&D with them, even if I know there are other games I'd prefer. Yes, playing TftL or Microscope or CP or Traveller or SW or many things instead of D&D would bring me from 92 to 95 on the Fun-O-Meter. But that's not going to be worth it for the group if just about anyone wouldn't like trying something new.

So every season when we put out pitches another GM and I put forth a half-dozen non-D&D possibilities. And we know we'll end up playing 5e. Which is fine. But we enjoyed looking back at TftFV or M&M or CoC and working up a pitch. And we always have the kids to inflict the other systems on =)

Miniman

@BESW For me it's...weird and complicated. I've stopped gaming (in that sense) more or less completely, and I don't know how to start again. Plus, I've never found a group that really matches my interests - "interested in trying new things" and "interested in heavy, crunchy, gamist gaming (if you see what I mean)" don't seem to go together much.

Joel Harmon

@nitsua60 (was "SW" a typo of "DW", or am I missing something?)

Miniman

And on top of that, those two don't go together well, since one generally demands significant investment of time into a single game, where the other more or less implies the opposite.

@JoelHarmon Savage Worlds, I assume.

Joel Harmon

@Miniman D'oh!

That's what I get for trying to keep an eye on two different chats while writing an answer for a third site...

Hot RPG Questions

3:58 AM

4

Q: Charlatan Schemes, are they just flavor or for mechanics?

Favorite Schemes Every charlatan has an angle he or she uses in preference to other schemes I shave coins or forge documents. Is there a formula or mechanic for shaving coins, or is it more of a flavor thing?

trogdor

4:35 AM

RPGs in the RPG room? Madness

How dare you all talk about RPGs

XD

MikeQ

@trogdor What should we talk about instead?

BESW

Well, I just made this:

MikeQ

4:50 AM

@BESW I'm sure folks will appreciate that alot

BESW

[grin]

A friend wants to watch some Old Who but is feeling a bit overwhelmed.

MikeQ

What about it is overwhelming?

trogdor

@MikeQ literally anything else as long as it's off topic :P

Miniman

@MikeQ There's a metric ton of it?

BESW

@MikeQ More than 600 surviving episodes spanning eight main actors over 26 years, impossible to watch in order because almost a hundred episodes are missing in some or part, but we're saddled with the modern idea that watching in order is the best way to do it because you'll be confused otherwise?

Miniman

4:56 AM

And it's of inconsistent quality, but it's impossible to tell without watching which episodes are worth watching.

I've often thought about trying to watch it and quickly given up on the idea.

BESW

For completionists I generally recommend the season overviews done by Hagan and/or Nash, which give you a broad sense of the show and recommend specific things to watch or avoid.

But both of them will tell you up-front, order doesn't matter and completion doesn't matter, almost all of Old Who is designed to be watched out of order.

Hot RPG Questions

5:41 AM

5

Q: What techniques can I use to seduce a PC without arousing suspicion of ulterior motives?

I am looking to have an NPC try and seduce one of the PCs in my party. The NPC has an ulterior motive of course, but I don't want the player immediately suspecting a succubus or similar. What techniques have you successfully used in a similar situation to avoid the suspicion? The player charact...

dnd-5e gm-techniques metagaming

BESW

@HotRPGQuestions Danger, Will Robinson! Danger!

trogdor

lol

SamsyTheUnicorn

7:28 AM

I like that the first comment on my latest question is actually about the Dark Souls reference I made rather than the question. That genuinely makes me proud of this community, no sarcasm.

Pierre Cathé

Morning all

V2Blast

Aug 7 '18 at 20:02, by doppelgreener

At least for this chat, going by its history, the most off-topic thing anyone's probably asked in here was a tabletop RPG question.

@SamsyTheUnicorn Haha

@PierreCathé Hello!

trogdor

@V2Blast XD yeah

Pierre Cathé

Have you fine folks seen the DDB encounter builder ? I got an email about it yesterday and tried my hand at it, it's a nice tool

SamsyTheUnicorn

I've made it an active effort to avoid using DnD Beyond, it's just not polished enough for me yet, missing a lot of things that unofficial, yet legal, sites have, like Donjon's encounter related tools.

Pierre Cathé

7:37 AM

Heh hopefully they'll get there eventually ;)

BESW

The official late-era tools for 4e were quite good.

SamsyTheUnicorn

Hopefully, also a bit miffed that I've spent decent money getting the physical books and now I have to repurchase everything just to use the site properly.
The character sheets are too stiff in their current state, possibly to stop people just entering in official weapons as homebrew ones. I prefer Dicecloud because of that.

Pierre Cathé

Also I don't know if it's because it's still in beta, but I've got access to monsters from all books

Even though I've bought none

SamsyTheUnicorn

That doesn't sound right, they've got a paywall on monsters from the Monster Manual and multiple the other books.
Are you sure the ones you can see aren't just the ones available in the SRD/Basic Rules?

Also, being in a campaign on DDB with book sharing could be giving you access.

Pierre Cathé

No seems like everything's available in the encounter builder, though I don't get the detail of the monsters

SamsyTheUnicorn

7:51 AM

Ah, that sort of makes sense, I'd still use the Donjon 5e Encounter Balancer or KFC though.

V2Blast

@PierreCathé I haven't fiddled with the encounter builder yet, but it's been in public beta (to everyone, even without a subscription) for at least a month now I think

@SamsyTheUnicorn Not sure what you mean by "the character sheets are too stiff"

But you can manually add official content you own elsewhere as private homebrew if you want to use it on DDB without repurchasing. The staff have even encouraged this.

Pierre Cathé

@V2Blast Yay ! Another case where I have to retype the whole PHB !

Did you know that after typing it out completely 7 times, you'll know it all by heart ?

V2Blast

@PierreCathé I mean, you don't have to, unless you intend to use the whole PHB

lol

SamsyTheUnicorn

@V2Blast if you look at Dicecloud, almost everything can be adjusted manually using formulae, and with the update hinted in the site's Patreon, you'll soon be able to create new ability scores, skills, and all sorts on character sheets. As someone who homebrews a lot of content that's stat or score related, this is heaven for me.
DDB however, it's a bit of a drag and drop system.

V2Blast

@SamsyTheUnicorn ah ok

I've never used Dicecloud

Though from what I've heard, Avrae (the Discord bot, now owned by DDB) does have functionality to integrate with Dicecloud

Pierre Cathé

7:56 AM

@V2Blast I'm saying that because I'm already typing spell cards for my current campaign

SamsyTheUnicorn

Even on DDB homebrew, the forms are too stiff for accurately recreating content, I highly recommend Dicecloud to new players with a history with IT or who are able to learn basic formulae for the forms.

@V2Blast That's how I discovered it, through my PBP campaigns on Discord, the bot has been culled a bit because of the non-SRD content it carried, but it's soon to become the official DDBBot after it was essentially acquired.

Nyakouai

Morning

Erik

@SamsyTheUnicorn In my experience, when using a tool for the first time, too many options are overwhelming - therefore, when creating a basic D&D char for the first time, maybe DDB would be better?

SamsyTheUnicorn

@Erik Even then, DDB only offers one background because of the SRD/Basic Rules restriction, if you want anything else, you'd have to homebrew it in, which is an awkward process for a new player to learn.
Pen and Paper is honestly the best character sheet method for new players in my opinion.

Erik

8:11 AM

Hmm, okay. Guess I'll try all three then.

SamsyTheUnicorn

The "Too many options" is actually why I only recommend Dicecloud to people with a mathematical or computer science background, because they're more likely to pick up on the formulae used in the forms.
For the online sheet but Pen and Paper feel, I recommend the Avrae bot compatible Google Sheet method.
Most my games are online so we use these two main methods instead of Pen and Paper.

V2Blast

8:34 AM

@SamsyTheUnicorn DDB has more than 1 background usable for free, because there are a few others in the basic rules but not in the SRD. The SRD only has 1 (Acolyte), which is why other sites only have that one.

(Criminal/Spy, Folk Hero, Noble, Sage, and Soldier are the others in the basic rules: dndbeyond.com/backgrounds?filter-name=&filter-source=1)

SamsyTheUnicorn

@V2Blast I didn't realise that, I remember there only being one of something available, must have been on other wikis

Someone_Evil

@SamsyTheUnicorn There's only one subclass for each class in the SRD

SamsyTheUnicorn

8:50 AM

@Someone_Evil that might be it? I'd have to revisit DDB to remember exactly.

Someone_Evil

There's also only one feat

SamsyTheUnicorn

@Someone_Evil that's it! There was only one option for feats last I remember.

Someone_Evil

11:54 AM

Hi @goodguy5!

goodguy5

oh hai

Nyakouai

Oh Hi Mark

SamsyTheUnicorn

Does anyone know why exactly WOTC decided to remove all the Dragon lore from 3e?
After having my question answered, I looked into the whole dragon retcon and it looks like loads of cool lore was just wiped from the game.

Someone_Evil

@SamsyTheUnicorn Why that lore wasn't carried over to later editions you mean?

SamsyTheUnicorn

@Someone_Evil sort of?
I read it as retconned because they actively ruled over it with new lore.

Someone_Evil

12:08 PM

I think broadly they streamlined the later editions to make it less book/rules/lore bloated

Which is fine by me, as I've always treated lore as a "maybe useful as inspiration", but not something to make sure to adhere to.

One thing to note is if the players read any lore. Because they will then have expectations for how things are (such as Chromatic dragons are evil) and if you decide to change this, you might make them confused, or worse depending on circumstance

SamsyTheUnicorn

I still retain some old lore and rules like how Paladin and Cleric spellcasting works in relation to religion and oaths.

Carcer

@SamsyTheUnicorn parsing ambiguity - do you mean lore that was removed from 3e or lore that is in 3e but did not survive to later editions

wait

I should read!

Someone_Evil

Sure, you can add whatever you want, and based on the 5e DMG, the system wants you to do that and gives you some guidelines, some defaults, and some inspiration.

Carcer

what kind of dragon lore are we talking about having removed

Someone_Evil

@Carcer Context in this question

BESW

12:17 PM

I'm on the record that I like 4e's lore the best. It's got the bits of worldbuilding and class lore that I'm most likely to yoink for another campaign despite generally being done with D&D overall including the settings.

SamsyTheUnicorn

I need to create a Session Zero template document in GMBinder, just so I can give players a general idea of how I structure campaigns

Carcer

from a pragmatic standpoint, you don't want your setting-generic background stuff to get excessively complicated

Someone_Evil

12:33 PM

Personally, I much prefer letting players contribute lore and worldbuilding, although getting my players actually to do it is a different matter

BESW

I was just looking at the worldbuilding sheet Fred Hicks made to use with his kids.

Hot RPG Questions

12:49 PM

4

Q: What happens to extra attacks after you kill your declared target

Say I decide I want to attack a Gnoll Pack Lord 10 feet away from me and I have 3 attacks. I roll 3 times and each roll is a hit. If my first two attacks kill the Gnoll, can I use the third on one of his buddies (assuming they're within my range) or is the attack lost? Only asking because on Cri...

dnd-5e combat attack

SamsyTheUnicorn

1:00 PM

Dragons are a big part of my new campaign because they're not a part of it.
The basis of the story is, dragons are dead, they have been for a while, but suddenly all their resting places have been dug up, and there are reports of undead forces raided villages, aided by skeletal dragons.

Someone_Evil

@SamsyTheUnicorn So... Skyrim? :p

Erik

Tod is proud.

SamsyTheUnicorn

@Someone_Evil there are some parallels with Skyrim, I have to admit.
But instead of Power Fantasy you are god boy with magic powers to kill what others can't kill, your party is one of many groups that have set out to hunt down the source of these undead dragons, and the threat can't be killed in 5 minutes with a 256256256 fire damage wooden sword.

Someone_Evil

@SamsyTheUnicorn So Skyrim the MMO? Wait, didn't they make that?

Erik

@Someone_Evil Don't anger him, or he'll knock you unconcious and you'll wake up, hands tied, on a horse-drawn wagon ^^

SamsyTheUnicorn

1:05 PM

@Someone_Evil don't even get me started on the state of the Skyrim Together mod team, that's a big bad

Someone_Evil

@SamsyTheUnicorn I was actually thinking of The Elder Scrolls Online, so no, I'm not trying to get you started

SamsyTheUnicorn

The setting takes influence from the works of Lovecraft, Miyazaki, and the OG Daggerfall dev team. So it's my attempt at blending Weird and Dark Fantasy.

KorvinStarmast

@MikeQ Yep, the rune one has potential, the rogue one is (too many fiddly bits) and the ranger one is ... interesting. Heavy on the Feywild influence, it seems to me.

SamsyTheUnicorn

@KorvinStarmast is that regarding the new UA subclasses?

KorvinStarmast

@BlackSpike Folk and country are related but not the same; though there is quite a bit of crossover. There's a lot of overproduced Nashville country/pop/rock that for sure ain't folk.

@SamsyTheUnicorn yeah, the rune one has potential to be OP since the limits on runes isn't there and a wizard MC can break a few things ...

Someone_Evil

1:15 PM

@SamsyTheUnicorn As a tip about chat, if a message starts with an arrow it is refering to a previous message (you can click on it to jump to that one). You can refer to a message by clicking the arrow that appears on the right when hovering.

SamsyTheUnicorn

@Someone_Evil didn't notice that, thanks. I've been manually typing peoples names up until now. thought you could only see the reply history on the mobile chat thing.

KorvinStarmast

@BlackSpike The rolling stones did that a bit ... and so did Fairport Convention some times

SamsyTheUnicorn

I have a feeling all the new UA subclasses coming out at the moment are hinting a possible new big rule book a la XGTE. Did something similar happen prior to the release of that book?

NautArch

@SamsyTheUnicorn it's a gamechanger!

KorvinStarmast

1:36 PM

@SamsyTheUnicorn Lord, I hope not. Most of them are not very good. The truenamer redux is awful. (Onamancer) About two years of UAs happened before XGtE.

I'd rather see them release an adventure and a source book for: Shadowfell, Feywild. Than new classes and such.

And Dark Sun. But that's just me being bummed that they did Ravnica rather than Dark Sun ...

Friend of mine just got his hands on a Star Trek RPG that is on roll20, so he may begin running some of that in a while.

Miniman

@KorvinStarmast Not to worry, everyone's bummed they did Ravnica rather than [insert favourite setting here].

KorvinStarmast

@Miniman You still posting on GiTP? I could swear I see your avatar there now and again.

Miniman

@KorvinStarmast Yeah, here and there.

KorvinStarmast

@Miniman I am going to probably post a thought on the Rune Fighter UA, because I think it's about 80% OK. But there look to me to be some holes in that block of cheese.

And those who complained that it wasn't a barbarian sub class ... I can see that PoV

Miniman

I think the Rune Knight is a perfectly good fighter subclass. I also think the giant-themed stuff would make a great barbarian subclass.

I don't see why they can't pick an idea and stick to it, but it's been happening a lot lately.

KorvinStarmast

1:44 PM

I like the XGtE Barbarian sub classes, except that the elemental one I don't think they did the math right. (My son had chosen that in our Salt Marsh campaign but then he had to bow out as work scheduled changed)

@Miniman Yes, exactly!

Miniman

Apr 23 '18 at 2:08, by Miniman

@Ben Btw, are you also going to look at the Zealot? A big part of my beef with the Xanathar version of Storm Herald is that dichotomy of "relatively balanced -> nerf it into the ground" vs "overpowered -> buff it some more".

KorvinStarmast

@Miniman Mearls does that a lot, though: he tries to find synergy by throwing a lot of ideas against the wall and seeing if any of it sticks.

Miniman

@KorvinStarmast I heard the recent UA mostly comes from one of the other writers, actually. (And not Crawford, either.)

KorvinStarmast

@Miniman Believable. The Ranger one ... I need to mess around with that one with one of my play ing groups. There is something good about it and something off about it. Good bonus spells, though.

Miniman

@KorvinStarmast I (and others I've talked to) like the idea, but look at the mechanics and just sort of end up saying "meh".

KorvinStarmast

1:48 PM

@Miniman The recent Fire Druid is a neat UA idea, and as I review my Circle of the Flame attempt on home brew, I need to do another scrub. It's still kind of clunky and the play test I thought I'd get was not a go.

Miniman

@KorvinStarmast Yeah, I really love the idea of a fire druid, but I haven't seen one yet that's quite right.

Anyway, 1am here, gotta go sleep. Ttyl.

hey

o/

how is everyone

::grumblesnarlmutter:: coffee. need coffee.

Gwideon

1:58 PM

yeah coffee would be good

BESW

JohnP

@BESW That seems about right when you have to get up at 5 to make a 6a meeting.

KorvinStarmast

I'm on my second cup of coffee, still can't face the day A country song lyric from over 40 years ago that fits how I feel this morning (Gordon Lightfoot song, IIRC)

Xirema

2:21 PM

Well, will Will's will will Will will Will's will?

...... That was sitting in my chat text field, I don't remember why.

Pierre Cathé

2:41 PM

@Xirema I'm confused with the 6th will

Xirema

will (will they)
Will's (short for William)
will (last will and testament)
will (as a verb; to will)
Will's (short for William; maybe a different William)
will (as a verb; to will)
Will's (short for William; probably a third William)
will (last will and testament)

In total: is William's last wishes going to instruct a second William to have his last wishes contribute to the last wishes of a third William?

...... Again, not sure why that was there. I got very sick last night, had to go to bed early. >_<

Pierre Cathé

Ooooooh I got it, thanks !

Gwideon

i can't believe that's a viable sentence

SamsyTheUnicorn

3:04 PM

TGIF

JohnP

@KorvinStarmast Second Cup of Coffee, Gordon Lightfoot, Don Quixote album 1972. Never heard it before.

However, now that I have heard it, it might be in my top 10 GL songs.

Gwideon

just waiting for something to happen in the review queue

Someone_Evil

3:23 PM

@Gwideon What are you waiting for in which queue?

Gwideon

the review queue

i'm waiting for something to review

JohnP

@Gwideon I've done that before. :)

Someone_Evil

Don't spend too much time waiting on first post or late answers, there aren't too many of them and a lot of people to review them

Gwideon

oh that means I probably won't be able to review anything

Someone_Evil

I would like to maybe put this back on the radar. It's been a bit now and we should probably be able to fix that feed. Or, maybe it's time to review which feeds we have in General Chat

Hot RPG Questions

3:32 PM

5

Q: Is there an in-setting explanation for how dragons breathe fire?

I'm currently in the process of writing a new campaign setting in which many classical mythical creatures have been rendered extinct for various reasons, one such creature is the dragon. My initial idea was that some sort of event or evolutionary flaw in the past stopped dragons being able to bre...

dungeons-and-dragons lore dragons breath-weapon

JohnP

@Someone_Evil I thought we decided it would fix itself, it was just seeing all the "new" posts from the migration/software update?

Someone_Evil

@JohnP If it has, then it can be put back up (in?), right?

JohnP

@Someone_Evil We could always try it, and if it starts spamming/freaking out, we can stop it and look at a date limiting modification.

Someone_Evil

To me it looked like we were getting a feed of all the events on a forum, which, when that forum is going through an upgrade and things aren't working is quite a lot of updates.

Should we maybe review all the feeds that are there? Looking at it now, it looks like there are a lot of feeds that never post anything.

JohnP

I don't know how to review the feeds.

On a side note, I just saw a trailer for Discovery season 3. How have I not even tried this show yet?

Yuuki

3:45 PM

I heard the first season was a little rough around the edges.

The Oracle

1

Q: Are these questions duplicates of each other?

There are three related questions that link to each other and have similar answers: How does Ancestral Protectors' resistance work against multiple damage types? Does a rogue's Uncanny Dodge halve each type of damage individually or the total? Multiple Damage Resistance They each (effectively...

discussion

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