TRPG General Chat

Hot RPG Questions

12:04 AM

10

I run a campaign for a group of friends (ages 16-17) and we generally have fun, but there is one player I've been having trouble with. They tend to get frustrated with the other players goofing off out of game and when they get frustrated they tend to yell. Now out of character yelling is prohi...

Ben

1:39 AM

Mooorrr-- [checks watch] Morning all

Shalvenay

hey there @Ben, still under the weather I take it?

Ben

I sound like it at least.

Not feeling it, though. Which is a bonus

nitsua60

2:01 AM

Ben

Well, I just made a booboo

IT's my mum's 60th this year, so everyone wants to make it a special one. There's been email chains and secret conversations, even to the point where my comments to throw her off the trail have been hushed.

All the traffic on the topic has made me think it was this weekend. Except it's not until next month.

Lol

Black Spike

@Ben lol

always remember when my mum's b'day is: 25/12!

Shalvenay

@nitsua60 lulz

BESW

@BlackSpike Ah, yes. I used to do that, but I found that it made more work for me in order to create adventures that everyone would be invested in because I had to somehow come up with ideas that involved everybody's different backstories. It's much easier to create engagement when characters have relationships with each other and forward-looking goals.

Shalvenay

yeah, I usually reserve backstory more for answering salient questions about how a character came to be the way they are

Ben

2:14 AM

@BlackSpike I have 3 sisters, my mum, my dad, and my daughter's bday to remember. Or, "remember". Lol. All I remember is my youngest sister's bday, because I used to have the first birthday of the year, then she stole it. And My daughter's bday was on the 27th of Feb; born at 11:59. Due to my state of mind at the time, I thought she was almost a leap year baby.

Black Spike

@BESW Agreed. The next GM-Question is "how does that work, going forward?" :)

user15026

I am bad at remembering birthdays, I rely on my calendar.

user15026

I can remember mine mostly.

Ben

@Ash I would, except that would mean people need to advertise when their bdays are haha

user15026

@nitsua60 snorts

BESW

2:15 AM

I encourage people to make characters with shared goals and existing relationships, and the details can come out in the wash.

Black Spike

@Ash I rely on my mum! "Hey, you know it's your bro's birthday next week?" .. "yes, mum, -of-course- I know ... thanks for nudge!"

trogdor

@Ash same, I'm bad at dates of things in general really

BESW

Even when I can remember birthdays (hi @Ash!) I'm bad at gifting because I just give people the stuff I think would make them happy whenever in the year I find it?

user15026

@BESW Saaaame, I am like "why do I need to wait for a reason why can't I just say "this is for you because you are cool today and it is Tuesday" or whatever

Black Spike

@BESW we're a long-standing group of players .. implicit in PC creation is "you will be working as a group ... roll a PC that gets on with everyone (sort of ...)

trogdor

2:18 AM

@BESW I'm not complaining :P

BESW

@BlackSpike Sure, but that's not what I'm talking about. I encourage people to create specific (but not detailed) points of contact, not just a general expectation of non-aggression or mutual bonhomie.

user15026

Designated gift giving occassions give me hives.

user15026

@BESW like certain types of friendship or familial relationships or enmity or whatever?

Black Spike

@BESW we tend to 'drift' towards that ... and then the GM throws us a PLOT ... we all jump aboard the PLOT TRAIN :) we then grab the wheel and run it off the rails :)

nitsua60

@BESW I have a shelf in the closet for those things: I buy all year, put a post-it with a person's name on it, and when their birthday's coming up I look on the shelf. If there's a present there, I gift it. Otherwise, better luck next year!

user15026

2:21 AM

(also bonhomie always makes me think of bonhomme which means I totally think of this guy)

user15026

BESW

@Ash Like how in Masters of Umdaar each character picks another character and defines a family-like relationship such as "She's like my impatient little sister." Or Golden Sky Stories with its relationship suggestions like Rivalry, Admiration, Protection, Affection, etc.

user15026

Ah that makes sense :D

Black Spike

upcoming game, we have been given a Central Point (Venice-type canal-city) ... "the NPC has a boat. You are invested in this boat. "

trogdor

I'm pretty bad at gift giving because it's not part of my normal routine

Black Spike

2:23 AM

we get to decide how, but that's a Campaign Conceit.

Shalvenay

@BESW yeah, PbtA style Bonds are good for that I find

trogdor

My brain is pretty regimented into doing the same things through the day and the week

BESW

@Ash Masters of Umdaar is a good example because it also provides goal prompts: everybody has to provide a short phrase explaining why they've chosen to make a profession out of the ridiculously dangerous artefact-hunting activities that the game is based around.

user15026

@trogdor when Christmas comes around and I have to suddenly buy for a pile of people my brain shorts out

user15026

I always feel like I don't know what people like because I hyperfocus on things so it's easy to know what I like but non-NAT people don't do that do I don't know how to tell they like a thing

SmokeDetector

2:25 AM

[ SmokeDetector | MS ] Bad keyword in answer, bad keyword with email in answer, email in answer, messaging number in answer, pattern-matching email in answer, +1 more (437): Do ability scores have any effect on casting the Wish spell? by vicky danis on rpg.SE

Black Spike

Often we use the tired trope: You all have the same Boss, and he says you work together

BESW

@Ash Sometimes I just go "Okay, fine." and I sit down and make origami for everybody, choosing the specific creature/object that will show each person I was thinking of them in particular.

user15026

Oh, I like that

Shalvenay

...don't you just love the spam we get around here? :P

BESW

Because that's what gifting's about, it's "I care about you in particular enough to invest in thoughtfully displaying that care."

user15026

2:27 AM

I wish my brain remembered that better

BESW

Origami is shorthand for "invested time and effort and care in a thing," and picking the right shape personalizes it.

user15026

I love origami things, I like making it, although my hands are struggly with it

BESW

Get a bone folder. [nods]

A good (metal) ruler and a bone folder are so useful.

Black Spike

"I maded this, for you!" is always better than "i found this in the Mall"

Shalvenay

yeah, I really need to start unwinding my pile of half-baked crap though :P

trogdor

2:35 AM

@Ash yep

Same here

@BESW but I kinda hate that that is the only acceptable way to show that because it takes me an unfathomable amount more effort to do that than NAT people

BESW

@Ash Yeah, NT people struggle with figuring that out too. That's why there's so many jokes about obvious generic gifts like getting dad another tie for father's day or wedding gifts being mostly fancy appliances.

trogdor

I gotta get out of my rut/normal routine, figure out exactly what they want even if they don't tell me, find out where to get it, and then go there and actually get it

Some of those things sounds easy to a lot of you probably

Trust me when I say that when I read that list of things it makes me shudder

BESW

That's one reason I like that chenchule' is acceptable in services rendered, and is expected during events where certain services are obviously needed.

trogdor

At least when they are all combined

BESW

@trogdor ...I have never been able to muster empathy for people who consider shopping recreational.

trogdor

2:41 AM

@BESW ugh

It's a horrible chore

That's also one reason I like pet sitting though

I get to go to a place, do the same thing every day until the owner gets back, the animal/s actually don't want nearly the level of attention humans do (yes even dogs, I'm serious about this) and when they get back they are extremely grateful I did the things

I mean, for one thing animals don't expect you to look them in the eye, and even when I do it just doesn't hurt the way human eye contact does

Shalvenay

@BESW yeah, I can relate to struggling with gift-giving...especially regularly expected gift-giving

trogdor

5:43 AM

I mean, if it was my specific definition of "regularly expected" it would mean once every week

That would help a lot in adding a routine of it but would also be taxing in it's own right

Sirv

6:00 AM

My family asks each other what we want if we can't think of anything

Makes things a lot easier

And for parents birthdays and mothers/fathers day we'll often cook dinner for them

'cause parents are hard to buy for :/

(we being my siblings and I)

kviiri

6:16 AM

I get my dad tea, my mother is harder because she lacks a trademark favorite.

trogdor

6:33 AM

I second this extremely hard, parents don't tell you what they want

V2Blast

@Someone_Evil Did some copyediting ;)

@BESW Shopping is one of my least favorite activities, along with talking to strangers on the phone.

@kviiri Tea is a good choice 🍵

Nyakouai

7:16 AM

@trogdor They tell you they want you to be happy :)

trogdor

lol

or they just vaguely groan at the question and hem and haw about it

Pierre Cathé

Morning

Nyakouai

Morning

Nyakouai

7:43 AM

@Ash No, please, not again... Same struggle every year

Hot RPG Questions

8:39 AM

2

Q: Are the players on the same team as the DM?

I need an answer because I am a beginner. And I got the players handbook and it does not say a thing about this.

pathfinder-beginner-box

Someone_Evil

@V2Blast Some. (highly appreciated :))

kviiri

8:56 AM

@V2Blast Yeah and I'm a tea drinker myself, so I have the necessary domain knowledge to make good picks :)

@trogdor Ow, sounds hard :(

trogdor

@kviiri I mean,... it's not the worst thing, if they can't tell me what they want they know they aren't getting much

sometimes they actually ask for something

BESW

9:14 AM

Vocabulary-storming: types of fish whose names are very commonly known. Preferably not show fish like goldfish or fighting fish.

Someone_Evil

Cod, trout, salmon?

V2Blast

Tuna

BESW

hmm, good.

kviiri

Shark, swordfish, ray, haddock.

Someone_Evil

Starfish, crab, lobster, shrimp, jellyfish, sea urchin. (See also, there's no such thing as a fish)

BESW

9:19 AM

That's a point. Shrimp might work, I'm looking for something that's not "charismatic."

Someone_Evil

Stonefish, eels, wolffish?

BESW

Ooh, eel is good too.

Someone_Evil

blobfish, anglerfish

Tiggerous

bass plaice sole monkfish hake basa

BESW

Anything with a -fish suffix won't work, too unwieldy.

vicky_molokh

9:25 AM

Pike.

BESW

I'm happy with shrimp/eel for now. Thanks very much!

Someone_Evil

Sea Pigs are worth an image search in the "your fantasy/SF creatures don't look weird enough, because this is real" category

trogdor

Pike?

Barracuda

oh someone said pike

BESW

@Someone_Evil I'll see your sea pig and raise you a sea hare.

Which reminds me. @Ash do an image search for "Christmas tree worms."

Pierre Cathé

Plankton

kviiri

10:05 AM

We invented a fun little role play thingy with my SO yesternight

I pretended to be Leonardo da Vinci and asked her to tell me about the coolest things of the future. And asked a lot of questions.

4

She did really good at explaining although I'm still a bit lost how all those cats stuffed in the "internet" tubes don't run out of breathing air

BESW

10:30 AM

There are robots all along the tubes that constantly blow in hot air.

kviiri

What's a robot?

I mean, apart from a means of transportation

BESW

A clumsy metaphor for cruel labor practices, taken literally by people with no sense of irony.

kviiri

I wonder if irony was invented in Leonardo's time

(of course it was, it was invented in the iron age)

Or maybe irony was invented first and when the iron age came people were using iron ironically and hence the name

Tiggerous

10:49 AM

Hi chat, I posted this meta a couple of weeks ago now - Is 5e a clear enough statement of game system by a question asker?

Community consensus seems to have settled on an answer. Should I do anything?

Should I Accept the most upvoted answer - or just do nothing and leave for it people to refer to later?

doppelgreener

Either one is fine

There's not really a need to accept an answer on policy discussions

Tiggerous

Cool - i'll leave as is. Thanks doppel :)

Jadasc

11:55 AM

Does anyone have any idea why my "living wood" answer has suddenly gotten so much attention? It's gotten like 10 upvotes in a single night. Is there something suddenly relevant about Innistrad's trees?

Someone_Evil

@Jadasc There was a new answer, bringing the question to the front page

Jadasc

@Someone_Evil That would do it.

The Oracle

12:13 PM

0

Q: Is it possible to create a tag referral?

A recently added tag was created with the UK English spelling 'flavour'. Many US English speakers may have trouble finding or be hesitant to use this tag. Is it possible to create a tag that refers to this one with the alternate spelling? https://rpg.stackexchange.com/tags/flavour/info

feature-request tags

Hot RPG Questions

7

Q: Is there any method of inflicting the incapacitated condition and no other condition?

From reading through conditions such as paralyzed (PHB 291) or unconscious (PHB 292), I realized that incapacitated seems to act largely as shorthand so each condition that inflicts it (paralyzed, petrified, stunned, and unconscious, for those keeping track) doesn't have to repeat the text "the c...

dnd-5e conditions

doppelgreener

1:15 PM

@kviiri that's a superb exercise

Rubiksmoose

@kviiri This whole thing was amazing. Thank you for that lol

kviiri

^__^

Rubiksmoose

3:18 PM

@KorvinStarmast FWIW I'm not sure I see any contradiction in JC's tweets there.

Wizards spellbooks aren't runes necessarily and also don't have any linguisitic meaning necessarily. :)

G. Moylan

3:30 PM

hello all, been a bit

Rubiksmoose

Hey!

How's it going?

G. Moylan

going well, yourself?

Rubiksmoose

busy busy, but can't complain too much.

G. Moylan

hooray! How's the new house treating you?

Rubiksmoose

Very nicely! Still working on a bunch of small and medium stuff in preparation for a housewarming party but so far it has been nothing but wonderful.

G. Moylan

3:40 PM

good to hear

Rubiksmoose

What have you been up to?

G. Moylan

not much, just working and family stuff. Been having to really focus a lot at work and haven't had the time or focus to manage having videos or chats open while working

Hot RPG Questions

4:11 PM

12

Q: When a creature runs away from combat, when can it trigger surprise again?

I understand how surprise works, but one thing I’m curious about is clarification on when combat “ends”, if it doesn’t resolve in the defeat of either side. This might make a little more sense with context of the situation that provoked this question. I have a villain that uses the rogue’s assa...

dnd-5e combat surprise assassin

Rubiksmoose

@G.Moylan That makes sense. I'm definitely had that going on lately as well. Between work and house stuff it definitely eats up time.

G. Moylan

indeed. It doesn't help that I have ADHD, and while that enables me to shift gears rapidly, it also sometimes means I fall into rabbit holes for way more time than I should, or shift gears when perhaps it's best not to

but part of living with that is managing it and recognizing what your triggers might be. Chat windows and youtube are big ones for me, but today I'm feeling good about it

Rubiksmoose

Yeah I should almost certainly be doing more to help myself against my ADHD triggers (ADHD fist bump)

Kudos to you for being aware and attentive to yourself :)

G. Moylan

4:29 PM

bump I still have trouble getting ahead of them sometimes. I've chosen to not take medication for it for the past several years (almost 10 now) and sometimes that means I have days where I really struggle. But I have more good days than bad in that regard, so I think I'm doing alright overall

Hot RPG Questions

7

Q: Can more than one wizard copy a spell from a spellbook?

In the PLAYER'S HANDBOOK you can copy a spell into your own spellbook. In the DMG (p200) if a spell is copied from a scroll, the scroll is destroyed. If a spell is copied from a spellbook however, does the same apply? And could more than one wizard copy the same spell (or spells) from a found ...

dnd-5e spells wizard equipment

Rubiksmoose

@G.Moylan Dang that's still impressive. I would literally be unable to function without medication.

G. Moylan

@Rubiksmoose I was that way for a long time. I initially suffered when I went off medication (didn't do well academically in college when I really had no excuse). Reflecting on it now, I think I had issues in some form or another for several years socially, academically, etc. Really only these past 5 years or so, since I've been married, had "big boy" jobs, and had a kid in that time, so I feel like I've really been paying attention to what my triggers are

Mostly it's the fact that I noticed I'd have almost entire workdays where I struggled to accomplish much of anything, and thought "wow I need to fix something"

Xirema

4:46 PM

So I decided to do a very dumb thing and try to figure out a way to assign every [mundane] weapon in D&D5e a single numerical value representing how "good" it is, where "good" is partially damage, but also non-damage properties.

G. Moylan

and the winner?

Xirema

G. Moylan

I'm guessing Vorpal or nine-lives stealer

oh wait mundane

Xirema

@G.Moylan Again; just mundane weapons.

I'm trying to figure out how to assign values to weapon properties.

G. Moylan

why are great weapons rated so low by comparison?

Xirema

4:49 PM

@G.Moylan Well, my guess is that I've assigned wrong values to certain properties.

G. Moylan

are you examining the weapons in a vacuum or trying to account for how they can be wielded?

Xirema

If I assume that all weapons are theoretically equal (which is probably wrong, but we'll just assume it for the sake of argument) then all weapons should have a value of 0.

So if a weapon is above or below 0, it means one of two things:

1. I've assumed a wrong value for one (or more) of the weapon's properties
2. The weapon really is just better or worse than its peers.

G. Moylan

so when you look at a greatsword vs say a dagger, what factors go into determining their relative "goodness"

Xirema

Some of those property values I'm confident with; some less so.

G. Moylan

so what determines that a heavy weapon is objectively worse than one that isn't?

Xirema

4:54 PM

Loading is -2 because, unless you have a feature that negates it like the Crossbow Mastery feat, it severely limits the power of the weapon.

@G.Moylan The fact that small creatures cannot wield it.

Or, they can, but with Disadvantage.

G. Moylan

ok what about two-handed

Xirema

@G.Moylan You can't hold a second weapon if you plan to use it unless you get clever with juggling items.

G. Moylan

I feel like that one is a bit loose. Chracters optimized for two-handed weapons can often wield them to terrifying effectiveness

Xirema

@G.Moylan Yes. These values don't consider a character's specific potential to improve the weapon. Otherwise I'd be adding +2 to all the Crossbows.

I'm considering, though, dropping both heavy and two-handed to -0.5 instead of -1.

Since Heavy at least tends to be a very marginal property.

Actually...

G. Moylan

ok I think I see where you're going with this. You're going for something along the lines of: which weapon would have the most general usefulness to the greatest variety of race/class/level combinations

??

Xirema

5:00 PM

@G.Moylan Yeah. And there's definitely a ton of edge cases it doesn't properly consider.

G. Moylan

@Xirema sure, but edge cases aren't "in general"

Xirema

This is all intended to be part of a procedural Weapon generator I'm working on, so I'm trying to figure out if any weapons are just objectively better than others, or if they're all relatively balanced; and that depends on figuring out whether my assumptions about how to value the individual properties are correct or not.

Like, some things seem really obvious: it makes sense that a Morningstar is just strictly worse than a Rapier or Longsword: it has neither the Finesse nor Versatile properties that make those weapons (respectively) just a little bit better.

G. Moylan

I feel like certain weapons would benefit moreso from certain magical properties, though. like Vorpal, for example

Yuuki

@G.Moylan Vorpal sling.

G. Moylan

and morningstars are great for their design purpose, though, which was knocking cavalry off their horses

but terrible one-on-one weapons

Xirema

5:06 PM

It also makes sense to me that the Crossbows tend to get rated lower: again, that Loading property really cuts deep into their effectiveness.

(Hence why the Crossbow Expert feat is basically mandatory for anyone wanting to focus on Crossbows)

G. Moylan

so I guess it depends what frame of reference you're using for determining "most useful." I wouldn't find a rapier very useful for unseating cavalry

but one-on-one, rapiers are great. Longer reach than a dagger, too

Xirema

@G.Moylan Well, in game mechanics. IRL doesn't have much bearing in that regard. =P

G. Moylan

true

Xirema

I'm wondering if I should reduce the value of a thrown weapon. It's already lower than normal ranged weapons due to lower range, but Thrown Weapons also have the problem that they have to be retrieved somehow.

G. Moylan

yeah. One-time-use seems highly detrimental

if used that way

Xirema

5:17 PM

I applied the -1 adjustment to the Lance to account for the fact that it technically has the Two-Handed property (hidden behind Special), which only goes away while mounted.

I think it's okay to keep it at -1, because it has the disadvantages of being Two-handed, but doesn't actually have that property, so it can't be used with features that might benefit it.

(Otherwise I'd have to reduce the adjustment to -0.5)

G. Moylan

I figured it was due to its special circumstances

Xirema

Right now, after all the adjustments I've made (including a flat -1 "normalization" factor), the Lance has the highest score at 1.

G. Moylan

I think that's probably a better spread than 2 to -5

Xirema

@G.Moylan Well, the blowgun is the one pushing the lower end, now sitting at -6. It just kind of sucks as a weapon in every known way.

G. Moylan

yeah it's awful. You might be able to drop it if you stipulated that you had to roll for the damage. All non-fixed-damage weapons

Xirema

5:27 PM

TBH, the Net should probably be 2 points lower as well, since I think it behaves as-though it has the Loading property, even though its properties don't say so.

G. Moylan

you can attack every round, you just can't get multi-attacks with it. Loading takes an entire action to fulfil

Xirema

@G.Moylan Yeah, that's how I've been weighing it. Losing Extra Attack is a pretty huge loss.

G. Moylan

but it isn't as bad as loading, with takes a turn to do. you can't exactly get multiattacks with a loading weapon either

Xirema

@G.Moylan Oh, you might be thinking of a different edition. Loaded weapons in 5e don't need extra turns to reload, it's just preventing the Extra Attacks.

> Loading. Because of the time required to load this weapon, you can fire only one piece of ammunition from it when you use an action, bonus action, or reaction to fire it, regardless of the number of attacks you can normally make.

G. Moylan

oh it appears I am

so yeah they're effectively identical

as you said

Xirema

5:31 PM

So yeah, the net has a defacto Loading property without explicitly saying so.

G. Moylan

indeed. idk why they just didn't give it the property and rename it to "slow," stipulating that a "slow" weapon takes time to use again

Xirema

So the net drops to -4.5, only being better than the Blowgun because it has utility beyond damage, which I weighed on its own as being worth +2 or 3.

G. Moylan

but alas, 5e language

Xirema

I could maybe bump the Blowgun up to -5.5 because its range is almost eligible for Medium Range, but it's still pretty awful.

G. Moylan

it does 1 damage, it's irredemably bad :P

I suppose you could poison the darts or something

Xirema

5:34 PM

Well, +Dexterity.

G. Moylan

but that's getting in the "potential" territory

@Xirema which is also odd, but I suppose is better than a d4

@G.Moylan in a way

Xirema

@G.Moylan Well, you'd also expect the d4 to come with +Strength or Dexterity, depending on the weapon.

Damn, I could issue a Brutal, Superior Blowgun +1 and it still would only reach the quality of a mundane Longsword, based on this system.

G. Moylan

oh are you using that table that assigns additional keyworded properties? I've seen that floating around

Xirema

@G.Moylan I've seen it as well, but I'm brewing my own.

G. Moylan

we just need an additional table that adds "of the bear" or "of the lizard" to the end with extra health or regen stapled on

Xirema

5:37 PM

Actually, Brutal + Superior cannot be applied to a Blowgun because it doesn't have damage dice.

G. Moylan

@Xirema oof

Xirema

So really we're just talking about Blowgun +3 being equal to a mundane longsword.

G. Moylan

bad is still bad. A blowgun is really only useful as a poison delivery system

goodguy5

@Xirema I think ammunition should be -.5

also, moylan is correct. blowguns are for delivering poison

and theme

Xirema

Hmm. Changing Ammunition to -0.5 makes the Shortbow be on par with the Lance at a score of 1, tied for top scorers.

I think that's just down to the Shortbow being a Simple Weapon, which gives a +1 bonus.

Maybe I should reduce that to 0.5

goodguy5

5:42 PM

hard to say on simple vs martial.

Most of the time a character would use it, they are proficient in it.

Xirema

@goodguy5 True; but the idea is supposed to be that Martial Weapons are usually just a little bit better than Simple Weapons because they're just a little bit harder to use.

goodguy5

Isn't that already reflected in their damage?

Xirema

Here's the trick: the higher an item's score, then the less features I can give a Procedurally generated weapon of that class when I create a Magic Item of its kind.

@goodguy5 That's one way it might be reflected, but that's not always the case.

If I remove the +1 adjustment for being a Simple Weapon, then in the top half of weapons, only three of them are Simple.

goodguy5

that seems fine

G. Moylan

but can they play pinball?

goodguy5

5:47 PM

is this a Pinball Wizard joke?

Xirema

Yeah. But because they're Simple, more characters can use them; so it makes sense to me that when adjudicating how many magic features to add to them to create an "Uncommon" quality item, Simple Weapons should probably receive slightly fewer.

goodguy5

But why, tho

even if you have flaming club, is the wizard really going to use it that often?

Xirema

@goodguy5 Because a +1 X is inherently more valuable than a +1 Y if the whole party can use X and only one character can use Y.

Not by much; hence why I'm considering changing the modifier to 0.5 instead of 1.

goodguy5

Only if X is equally usable by the whole party

but I support .5

Xirema

I could imagine a scenario where a Wizard picks up a crossbow and fires it if it has the property that it can ignite an enemy target for multiple rounds.

Like, 10d4 damage over 10 rounds can add up.

goodguy5

5:52 PM

A wand of Cure Wounds (or whatever) that can be used by the whole party is great.
An identical wand that requires a wisdom check to do so is usually just going to go to the cleric (ranger, whatever) anyway

Xirema

@Xirema Here's where I'm at now.

After Normalizing (I always subtract or add a number so that the median weapon is a 0) the non-blowgun non-net weapons span +1 to -1.5.

GcL

Looks like a table for the Elemental Plane of Math!

Xirema

@GcL That room was frozen for inactivity. =P

GcL

@Xirema We could see if the mods would make it permanent

Yuuki

Not sure that's a thing.

Mods can re-open rooms but I don't think you can make a room unable to be frozen.

Rubiksmoose

6:03 PM

@GcL [Rubiksmoose casts thaw]

Xirema

Lol, thanks. XD

Rubiksmoose

Yeah I don't think we can make it permanent. We're always happy to warm things up though lol

Xirema

Alright, posted there for posterity.

GcL

I like having a room for holding the Mathemancy

Chat of holding

Xirema

Now the only open question is, relative to this scale I've established, how much should various Magical Properties be worth....

goodguy5

6:09 PM

btw, this seems more like you're searching for an "enchantability" modifier, rather than a true "goodness" scale

Xirema

@goodguy5 I mean, yeah, that is the ultimate goal.

Although in this context, it's an inverse value, since a Lower Value == Higher Enchantability.

goodguy5

And I was thinking about something very similar the other night. .... like laying awake in bed trying to determine the relative value of +1 vs increased crit damage as enchants

Rubiksmoose

@goodguy5 Ah yes, the RPG player's equivalent to counting sheep lol

goodguy5

I think that I determined +1 was roughly equivalent to 19-20 critical which was roughly equivalent to 4x crit dice.

With some variability based on how hard to hit the thing was in the first place.

but I was in bed, so I didn't right any of it down.

Xirema

@goodguy5 I actually do need to hash that kind of stuff out.

goodguy5

6:13 PM

For simplicity, I kept everything in improper fractions lol.

Xirema

I had earmarked that +1 (HIT and DMG) is equivalent to Superior (Crit Range 19-20) and to Brutal (extra Die on crit)

Your calculations might suggest Brutal is slightly less valuable than I had assumed? (I didn't run numbers on it, I was just spitballing)

goodguy5

extra die, or extra dice? (i.e. how does it interact with greatswords)

And I THINK so, iirc

Xirema

Extra Die, so Greatsword goes from 4d6 to 5d6. on a crit. Same as the Barbarian feature, hence the name.

(Superior gets its name from the Champion Fighter feature)

goodguy5

I was comparing all dice.

Xirema

Okay, so that does suggest Brutal might be overvalued in my assumptions.

Although combining with Superior does increase the value of both...

G. Moylan

6:24 PM

Excellent video on Rule of Cool and managing gameplay from WebDM: youtube.com/watch?v=qkrjARxseCc

goodguy5

@Xirema all "out of" 20
normally, needing a 10 on the die, you deal 12*damagedice+11*damagebonus; 10 noncrithits + 2 (from crit)

+1 means you only need 9 on the die; 13*damagedice+12*(damagebonus+1)

superior needs 10 on the die; 15*damagedice+11*damagebonus

brutal(dice, not die) needs 10; 13*damagedice+11*damagebonus
- single die is the same, but 12.5 for 2dX weapons

4xcrit brutal needs 10; 14*damagedice + 11*damagebonus

3xbrutal superior; 15*damagedice + 11*damagebonus

that was how I pondered it without anything to write averages on

hrm.... I mess up something....

yea, I borked superior.

should be (9+2+2)*damagedice + 11*damagebonus

which means that +1 is a full static 11+damagebonus+1 better than the other two; with damage bonus ranging from 3 (usually) up to 5 (7 for barbarians. and another 10 for great weapon master, but that's a wonky scenario anyway).

So, to compete, you're going to have to shore up something

Xirema

6:41 PM

@goodguy5 Alright, so I ran a whole lot of numbers on a basic Greatsword on a level 1 character with no features or fighting styles. (+5HIT, 2d6+3DMG)

in Elemental Plane of Math, 1 min ago, by Xirema

goodguy5

What's the tohit on those?

Xirema

@goodguy5 Before any special properties of the weapon, +5 (+3STR +2PROF)

goodguy5

gotcha

Xirema

For the Basic+1, +2, +3, it becomes +6,+7,+8.

goodguy5

does a nat 1 always miss?

Xirema

6:42 PM

Yeah.

goodguy5

right. I always have to remember which is which between saves skills and attacks

Xirema

Brutal, Brutal++, and Brutal++++ is +1 Crit Die, +2 Crit Dice, +4 Crit Dice. The last of which is your "Critx4" scenario.

(At least in this situation: my calculator doesn't have a built-in function for "double the crit dice AGAIN....)

goodguy5

yea, got it

wow.
18-20/4x is still worse than +3

Xirema

Yup. Big shocker.

Could be really powerful on a high level Champion Fighter, but it turns out those features are pretty low-impact.

goodguy5

Looks like two of superior and/or brutal is close enough to +1

Xirema

6:48 PM

Certainly some classes will get more use out of it. Barbarians could get really scary with a Superior++ Brutal++ Greataxe, which under my system would only be a Rare Magic Item.

goodguy5

terrifying

Add in that they're a half-orc, and you've got something doing 7d12 on an 18-20 crit

Xirema

I posted those results in the other room. It's definitely a lot, although still somewhat modest.

Actually, scratch that.

Forgot to switch it to a greataxe.

Okay, the real stats are posted now.

goodguy5

nice.

superior brutial++ surprasses +3

Xirema

TL;DR: For a Barbarian, these properties are nearly doubled in value.

goodguy5

I love barbarians

Xirema

7:00 PM

So I'm thinking the correct value for Superior is 1.5, for Brutal about 1. Contrast with +1, +2, or +3 on a weapon, each worth +2 +4 +6.

(Referring back to my Weapon Properties tables)

goodguy5

idk. because superior brutal is still kind of lower than +1

Xirema

Superior++ Brutal++ is +6, equivalent to a +3 weapon's +6. But in a Barbarian's hands, the former is better; in someone else's hands, the latter is better.

@goodguy5 Are you looking at the new Barbarian stats on the other page? That's not the case in that particular comparison.

goodguy5

not with the barb, no. I mean, in general.

It seems unfair to the property to compare it against a level 20 barbarian

or whatever

Xirema

It's a level 2 Barbarian: high enough to get their Reckless Offense feature.

But no additional crit dice from barbarian features.

goodguy5

oh snap

didn't realize that

hrm.

Xirema

7:06 PM

And I'm not including Rage, which mostly just bumps all the values up by 2-ish, since most of these don't affect hit%.

goodguy5

Even so. comparing the efficacy of Brutal++++ looks much different against a Champion than it does anyone else.

Xirema

I'd compare on a Champion fighter, but my calculator doesn't expand the crit range beyond 18-20, so if I want to do that, I have to add that functionality. =P

goodguy5

mmmm.... 16-20 crit range. /drool

Xirema

@goodguy5 Elven Dex Fighter with Elven Accuracy and a situation where you can get Advantage.

goodguy5

chance of not critting is something like .8^12

~7%

A good time to be a Paladin lol

Xirema

7:10 PM

Well, across 4 attacks. On a single attack, you have a 57% chance of getting a critical hit.

goodguy5

wait a second, I goofed.

it's actually .75^12

so, ~3%

Xirema

Yup. 3.1676% chance of 0 crits across 4 attacks.

goodguy5

but enough power gaming fantasies. I need to clean my house and pretend I'm working.

Xirema

And if you're a dexterity Fighter, maybe you're a Crossbow Expert who got that property on your crossbow....

goodguy5

woooh. lunch beer and medicine kicking in at the same time.

GcL

7:41 PM

@goodguy5 Time to write some story lines!

goodguy5

I don't think I'm THAT altered.

GcL

Well, darn

gT

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