TRPG General Chat

12:06 AM

The concert is starting now on the main stage, at 5:00 pm PDT (8:00 pm EDT): twitch.tv/dnd

I'm trying to pull some quotes from a YouTube transcript, but the automatic transcript is totally unable to handle a Māori accent.

trogdor

I feel like it can't handle like,... A human person talking.

It's not surprising it has trouble with someone's accent, it's kinda trash isn't it?

V2Blast

unsurprising

BESW

It's very good at the Mid-Atlantic accent. Which is hilariously tragic.

It's an invented-for-public-speaking accent whose "chief quality was that no Americans actually spoke it unless educated to do so."

trogdor

@BESW and most people don't talk like that

Like, even if you only count people with English as a first language I mean

BESW

12:14 AM

exactly.

Ben

@BESW same with the Kiwi accent

And sometimes the Australian accent

Depends how thick it is haha

trogdor

@Ben it's bad with a lot of American and British accents too

I've never turned on that caption thing and gotten it to read as what I am hearing

It's very bad

It should be better

At everything

XD

Ben

12:31 AM

To be fair, speech to text used to be unusable by anyone other than Americans.

So, it's getting there. Lol

Burnistoun - Voice Recognition Elevator in Scotland

►

trogdor

I'm not saying it's unimproved

It's definitely better

But it's got a ways to go yet

BESW

And it's not just a lack of data, the algorithms themselves are deeply biased. Like, the YouTube video I'm pulling from is a TED Talk from the Manukau Institute of Technology, and the speaker is easily switching between English and te reo, mid-sentence. The technology doesn't understand the idea of code-switching, and no amount of data input is going to overcome that flaw.

Ben

I was watching an Indian Comedian once, and they were doing that so regularly I couldn't understand when they were speaking English.

I was following for the first sentence and a half, then I lost it. Lol

trogdor

@Ben this is pretty funny though

BESW

All the te reo I know is from reading e-tangata articles, but I could follow her better than the transcript could.

...it keeps rendering whakapapa as a rude word.

trogdor

12:39 AM

@BESW and yeah this is also a huge issue, we teach our tech through our dumb example to be biased and stupid

@Ben huh, when I went to India I had no issue with it

Shalvenay

@BESW yeah, I suspect it would be equally confused by someone hopping between English and say Swedish :P

Ben

I was watching it on Netflix. "comedians of the world".

trogdor

Our guides would speak to us in English and code switch to talk to each other but it was pretty clear when they were using one or the other

Ben

So I had subtitles to follow

trogdor

Ah

That does complicate things

Ben

12:43 AM

As far as I'm aware, it was an Indian audience too.

BESW

@Shalvenay When people respond to criticisms of algorithms with "the algorithm isn't the problem, it just needs better data!" I think about that sort of thing: "algorithms are opinions embedded in code." Good data is essential, but the best data in the world is useless if it's being processed on limiting or inaccurate assumptions.

Shalvenay

@BESW yeah, there's a reason that assumptions make an ass out of you and me

trogdor

@Ben mm yes that also makes a huge difference

Because the comedian knows that

If that's the case

Shalvenay

@BESW I actually hit these sorts of problems at $work, where we keep running into weird corner-case spots that were built that way 50+ years ago to pinch a few pennies, but require us to hack our algorithms to accommodate them

(who knew that the ghosts of an automaker that's been blinkin' defunct for a half century now would be haunting me and my employer in the year 20-freakin-19?!)

user15026

It amuses me how often and how easily people think that tech stuff can't possibly be as biased as it is, forgetting all of this stems from very biased humans.

trogdor

12:50 AM

@Ash not just from us being biased but from feeding it biased information

user15026

Exactly, yeah

user15026

It's a very biased onion.

trogdor

Like our biased records of arrests or our biased threat assessments or our biased guilty/innocent verdicts

Or our biased reports of drunk driving

So on and so forth

I'm scared of learning programs not because they signal the start of Sapient AI but Because they obviously rely on us for data and ways to process it

BESW

PropPublica has a series "Machine Bias: Investigating algorithmic injustice and the formulas that influence our lives."

user15026

Yeah, all of it is biases on biases that feed more biases

trogdor

12:53 AM

And then after that we have a tendency to say it doesn't have the flaws we do

user15026

@BESW oooh.

user15026

I read an article about how if we make robots and sentient ai that they will be biased too and I can't find it now, BECAUSE twitter

trogdor

It's not a great look on us to teach our programs our faults and then pretend they don't have them

Shalvenay

@trogdor yeah, the assumption that "machines are blind" disregards the bigger issue, which is that they are only as good as the code and data we write, or alternately, GIGO :P

user15026

It really isn't but I guess humanity can be very good at putting those blinders on

trogdor

12:55 AM

@Ash I'm not even sure I believe we will make sentient AI, but even if we do I think I will have been dead if old age for a while before that's actually a thing

@Ash humans ability to do that is the single most existentially scary thing to me

BESW

@Ash I'm hoping the Memory Called Empire sequel will get more into what's wrong with the City's algorithm.

trogdor

Probably higher than fear of death or questions of the purpose of the universe or our existence

@Shalvenay the scary thing is definitely that a system we build that depends on an AI we built with bias is going to be defended both active and passively by the perception of machines and computers lacking bias

Shalvenay

@trogdor never mind that machine learning is the high-interest credit card of technical debt

trogdor

I remember around 20 years ago when everyone belied computers couldn't even make mistakes

Some people probably still believe that but back then it was extremely pervasive

Shalvenay

> On two occasions I have been asked, — "Pray, Mr. Babbage, if you put into the machine wrong figures, will the right answers come out?" In one case a member of the Upper, and in the other a member of the Lower, House put this question. I am not able rightly to apprehend the kind of confusion of ideas that could provoke such a question.

Peter Cooper Jr.

1:04 AM

@Shalvenay I was just looking for that exact quote.

user15026

@BESW oh yes that would be awesome

user15026

@trogdor lots of people still believe that

user15026

I deal with it a lot at work

trogdor

@Ash that's fair

Shalvenay

@Ash yeah, sometimes I'm left wondering how to apprehend the kind of confusion of ideas that provokes such an attitude, too

trogdor

1:07 AM

Humans are scary

Peter Cooper Jr.

If you don't mind a change of subject… I'm rather newly playing a Wizard ([dnd-5e]), and I'm trying to get ideas for useful things to do with a familiar. I love the flavor of having a familiar, but just in terms of practical things. I mean it can scout ahead, and it can do the Help action. But I'm sure there's a lot more that it can do that I just haven't thought of yet.

BESW

1:19 AM

You may find some ideas going through these questions.

nitsua60

@Shalvenay Father-in-law's still in ICU. Trying to get ahead a bit on work so that I can take Tuesday to go down to the city with my wife for the meeting they're having with the doctor-team and social worker... =(

Shalvenay

@nitsua60 sighs

BESW

@nitsua60 Oh dear. You're in our prayers, and let us know if there's anything we can do!

nitsua60

@Ash Is it this one?

@BESW Thank you. Just keep making the world a better place, in your own locale =)

(For varying definitions of "locale.")

user15026

1:40 AM

That is a doable thing. :)

user15026

@nitsua60 nope, it was something about how we would make racist AI I think. But since I can't quite remember and I can only recall it from Twitter I suspect it is gone forever now

trogdor

@Ash it's not about Tay the Microsoft AI Twitter taught to be horrible is it?

Because looking up keywords for that literally is only bringing up that exact apparent incident

I looked at the whole first page and got only hits focused on that

Which I did not expect to be the only thing I could find on the subject

BESW

"Is AI doomed to be racist and sexist?' "Is Artificial Intelligence Racist?" "Yes, artificial intelligence can be racist" (lots more links in that one)

"Are artificial intelligence systems intrinsically racist?"

user15026

I believe it was one of those, @BESW but I could not tell you which one because my brain is a tired traitor.

Ben

2:04 AM

Is three days long enough to wait for a homebrew question, before I feel like it got left behind?

BESW

@Ben Like, to offer a bounty? Sure.

@Ben (cc @Ash because you're the only person here who I'm confident will know exactly what went through my brain when I saw this line.)

Ben

@BESW Well now I'm curious. Lol

user15026

@BESW I can make a reasonable guess, yes

trogdor

I didn't realize you were telepathically sharing information XP

BESW

@Ben "Left Behind" is the title of a series of novels and films about the rapture.

Ben

2:09 AM

Metal dice sets. Their selling point being that they're "less deadly then the usual d4 caltrops." Not points. Haha.

BESW

...sometimes I think a Stackture would be the kindest end to some of these questions. And/or the whole site.

@Ben Rounded edges also mean they're gonna go further under the couch.

trogdor

@BESW oh THAT left behind

Ben

@BESW Now that I know there is a series about this, I'm sold. Haha

trogdor

Not the specific works per say but the whole rapture idea thing

user15026

@Ben its...hm. Not great, shall we say.

Ben

2:12 AM

As opposed to the metal "Thorn" dice set

user15026

@BESW of which I read waaaaaay too many.

Ben

@Ash In what way?

BESW

@Ben Every way but cringe.

user15026

@Ben even when I was my most devout Christian, I was like "no why is this so bad", just like such poor writing and terrible everything.

user15026

At least one of the authors is an evangelical minister, if that helps tell you what sort of thing you are getting into

Ben

2:16 AM

Ah. That's a shame then :(

BESW

All the Left Behind productions are either vanity projects or produced by small companies that produce movies exclusively for the evangelical Christian audience. This means they tend to have lower production values, the only really good actors they can get are there as a favor to the church, the story logic is shaky at best because it's appealing to the emotions of an audience already familiar with the narrative, and the themes are often condescending and intolerant.

user15026

Yes! All of that. Thank you. I was trying to word it but it is in that part of me that is tangled messy so I was mostly like keyboard smash

user15026

(also having grown up steeped in that culture I have trouble sometimes articulating it)

user15026

Like I can't see the forest for the trees, kinda?

trogdor

I'm extremely glad my parents weren't religious

user15026

2:20 AM

Mine are but not as much as you would think, a lot of it was me throwing myself in the deep end trying to find meaning.

trogdor

Mm

BESW

(Simplifying rapture doctrine into a narrative film format tends to make it even weirder than it already is, too.)

user15026

(plus I had a few evangelical friends that helped me there)

user15026

@BESW ooooh yes. Like it's already weird but that adds some mad crazy layers of weird interpretation

Ben

@trogdor Depends on the degree. Mine are, but to the extent that it can be used more as moral guidance, some level of foundation, all that. Not so much about the existential belief that [insert thing here] is going to take you to hell.

user15026

2:21 AM

Watching people trying to take Revelations seriously is just...quite the thing.

trogdor

I was interested in Christianity as a kid but then I went to a Christian private school,... And I kinda lost any non-clinical interest in it due to that

Ben

More along the lines of "Be a good person"

trogdor

But skip to today and I've read the Bible and understand it Better than some devout Christians I've met

BESW

The original doctrine has to be really careful or you wind up with a God that kills millions/billions of people and sentences his enemies to an eternity of torture, and an Anti-Christ that feeds the poor and brings peace to the world. The movies are... not careful. And for bonus points, the Left Behind Anti-Christ annoys insufferably smug gits played by Kirk Cameron.

trogdor

Lol

user15026

2:26 AM

Yeah it's quite the thing.

trogdor

That almost Makes me want to watch that

BESW

Diamanda Hagan has some comprehensive but very sweary reviews of the series. She doesn't pull any punches, but is careful to not conflate the God depicted in the films with any other version of God outside the films, which I appreciate.

For at least one of them she teams up with a Christian reviewer.

Ben

@trogdor Me too haha. Just to say I experienced it lol

user15026

It's not worth it I promise

BESW

Whoops, that link's not great. This one might be better.

All of Hagan's videos come with content warnings for violence and profanity.

trogdor

2:35 AM

@Ash I expect it isn't

user15026

2:48 AM

There is much better Christian media if you wanna go that route :p

trogdor

I don't though

I definitely don't

On my opinion I've already been forced to consume more than I ever should have

Goddang it phone I wear trying to edit that!

BESW

And now you wearn't.

trogdor

If nothing else it's caused me to be unfortunately a little biased against religious ideas of other people

@BESW ugh

I'm not even going to edit that

I can't handle editing today

I've had extra work dumped on me that's related to something I thought I had finished because I was given incomplete information about what to do

X(

user15026

Nooooo :(

trogdor

3:03 AM

And now that I Know that the new instructions looks very lacking as well

I don't feel the slightest bit motivated to work on this thing

Ben

Just answered the "Healer Feat/Healer's Kit" question. Got an upvote, but no rep notification... What?

Realised I just spent 100 rep on a bounty, and the notifications only show net gains

linksassin

3:35 AM

@Ben Would you mind if I made a not so small edit to your question to try to make it easier to answer? I think people might be getting bogged down in the details and not focusing on what you are actually asking.

Ben

@linksassin Go for it!

:)

You've been working on this with me, and honestly you've done most of the work in this area, so you know just as well as I what we're trying to achieve :)

V2Blast

3:48 AM

I made a thread on /r/dndnext summarizing all the announcements from the D&D live event here: reddit.com/r/dndnext/comments/bqq2tt/…

linksassin

4:00 AM

@Ben Done. Do you approve of the changes?

Ben

4:39 AM

@linksassin Nice :D

Hot RPG Questions

5:53 AM

3

Q: What spell do I need to be my own rock band?

In Pathfinder, I created a level 10 bard, and I want to be my own rock band outside battle. My bard already have a huge performance in singing and playing numerous instruments. I took Ghost Sound to emulate music and Silent Image to emulate drummers and other specials effects. My DM said Ghost s...

BESW

@HotRPGQuestions Move Earth, Control Winds, Fireball.

V2Blast

6:31 AM

@BESW lol

Ben

6:48 AM

I was going to start building my Genasi Sorc today...

Lol

Ok... str/dex/con/int/wis/cha: 10/14/16/10/10/15

I think I could flip dex and con though, cos I get +1 dex and +2 con

10/15/14/10/11/15

I will be multiclassing into Fighter at a later level

linksassin

@Ben Why?

Ben

For Golden Sun reasons haha

The characters from Golden Sun were native spell casters, with (significant) physical combat prowess

linksassin

which origin are you going?

Ben

Not sure. Not Draconic, I feel

Might go with Giant Soul?

linksassin

7:06 AM

@Ben What's that one from? I haven't seen it

Ben

It is UA, but it's the only other one in the list for dndbeyond

linksassin

Ah that's cause you don't have the rulebooks. There is also divine soul, wild magic, shadow magic and storm sorcery

Ben

I do, haven't looked at them yet though. Having a squiz now

And apparently "squiz" is a word in my autocorrect dictionary. Score

linksassin

Divine and Shadow are pretty strong.

Ben

Had a look - since my theme is "air elementalist", Storm Soul is pretty appropriate

linksassin

7:19 AM

Likely

So last night my DM actually managed to make me swear at him for plot reasons. As in me the player not my character. He played me too well and now I'm in a terrible no win situation entirely of my own making. The joy on his face was infuriating.

Carcer

oh no

trogdor

I'm glad I never had a group that did that

linksassin

Oh, objectively it is amazing DMing. I love doing the same thing as a DM. I've just never had one blindside me and pull it off

Basically I wrote a backstory for my Drow Druid. He came from a noble family who were as evil as any story you ever heard about drow. But he just wanted to be friends with people.

Story unfolds such that I get separated from my best friend (player moved overseas)

Then we need my families help, so I have to do a bunch of not great things to earn their trust back after running away.

I think I finally got away with it and this might work out ok

DM: You are led down to the dungeons by your grandfather. "You must be aware that recently we have had raid on our shipments, well we have finally caught the culprit. As a reward for your renewed loyalty I thought you might like to do the honours..." Door opens... it's my best friend....

Carcer

harsh

but it's D&D!

kill him and raise dead him quietly somewhere else later

linksassin

@Carcer Not sure I could go through with that. But our cleric does have that fake death spell. Just need to stall long enough to let him rest to prepare it. Then find a reason for the extremely racist drow to let a half-orc in the room....

MikeQ

7:29 AM

So... prison break mission with the best friend?

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linksassin

Oh also... It was the last line of the session. Cliffhanger all the way.

@MikeQ If it comes to it. But at the moment there are several main quest lines that are tied up with my family. (They are holding one of the mcguffins) So we can't afford to offend them.

Ben

@linksassin oh dear haha

linksassin

@Ben It's totally my fault too. I regularly tell him about the times I've done similar things to my players. I wouldn't be surprised if he had been plotting this since the start of the campaign

Ben

Honestly though, if I pulled that off, I would not be able to hide my Cheshire grin haha

That's the really impressive part haha

linksassin

7:44 AM

@Ben Yeah it's a great feeling as DM. I've done it a few times.

To me, that is the goal of any good DM. Make the players feel something. A good DM makes the game fun. A great DM makes it fun and meaningful.

Ben

:)

We also have a changeling bard in the party

So I'm dusting off all of my bard memes

Hot RPG Questions

8:09 AM

2

Q: How does ability damage interact with the Possession spell?

Let's say that a wizard casts possession on a bugbear. Now, this bugbear has spent some time in questionable places and has contracted both Filth Fever and Mindfire, the first being a disease causing Dex and Con damage, the latter being a disease causing Int damage. The wizard is still possessin...

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Ben

MikeQ

@Ben What about the greatest meme of all: trope subversion

e.g. a bard who's a no-nonsense type who abhors the jokes and music and other theatrics, and instead inspires people by their seriousness.

Ben

I think we have a winner lol

BESW

I was fond of Fflewddur Fflam, myself.

(The novel version, anyway)

A king who feels that he's so incompetent his kingdom is better off without him, so he went to bard school but was so bad that they gave him a pity prize of a harp that practically plays itself; the drawback is, it breaks a string every time he lies, which makes him a rather peculiar bard.

MikeQ

8:26 AM

@Ben Take the Soldier background, call them The Colonel, and for your Countersong, you just interrupt and say that whatever's going on is "too silly"

Ben

The GM was getting excited by an all charisma based party lol.

I love this, but I think the GM will feel cheated haha

V2Blast

@MikeQ I approve

Carcer

9:11 AM

@Ben seibaaaaaaaa

SmokeDetector

9:27 AM

[ SmokeDetector | MS ] Bad keyword in answer, bad keyword with email in answer, email in answer, pattern-matching email in answer, potentially bad keyword in answer (347): How to find out what spells would be useless to a blind NPC spellcaster? by John Cooney NJ Usa on rpg.SE (@doppelgreener)

kviiri

10:12 AM

For some reason I feel worse than usual about the cancellation of today's game night

BESW

I've made some significant updates to "Where Are We Going" since I first posted it 12 hours ago.

Feedback appreciated.

trogdor

10:28 AM

ok will take a look

BESW

Jade gave me some excellent feedback this morning, some of which I've incorporated and some of which I'm still mulling over.

trogdor

mk

I see a lot of comments yeah

BESW

There were many more. [grin]

trogdor

ah you resolved a lot

so are they called listening points because they are supposed to reflect having listened to other people's stories?

or otherwise why are they called that?

BESW

Yes, exactly that.

trogdor

10:33 AM

because if you want to call them something else maybe, I could have ideas if I know why you chose that

ok

BESW

(well, not exactly that, there's some nuance in Larry Littlebird's speech that I'd love to get across but have no particular hope of accomplishing)

trogdor

hmm

is there,.. somewhere I could listen to that?

maybe see possibly what you mean

BESW

Walking backwards into the future: Larry Littlebird at TEDxAcequiaMadre

►

trogdor

ah ok

you had linked this before but I lost it in the swell of things happening at the time

BESW

But yeah, if all I can get across is that listening to other peoples' stories is one of the ways you define and refine your own, that'd be awesome.

trogdor

10:38 AM

oh what about Attention points?

BESW

That's a good thought! Can you drop into the comment thread on that bit?

trogdor

heeding, hearkening, interest

mk

I wasn't sure how to link it to those comments but I linked it to the same word

BESW

Thanks!

trogdor

I also included those other ones, I don't think they are as good but maybe just maybe they are options too

Ben

@kviiri why for?

trogdor

10:52 AM

@BESW ok so I know it's very early, and you might just still be working on that part, but you have mechanics for the game but you don't have a,.... I don't know what to call it other than a description of what the game is like

the setting, the theme, the tone

BESW

Right now it's an engine.

trogdor

ok

and that's fine

I just wanted to point it out

BESW

I'm toying with the idea of making it a game by adding a "you are on a journey" context.

trogdor

mk

kviiri

11:10 AM

@Ben I don't know, really. I guess I'm just so socially deprived after missing so many chances for outings that it's starting to weigh me down

trogdor

@BESW oh it looks like that is agreeable

XD

BESW

Yes!

trogdor

ok well at the moment I can't find anything else to add

Ben

11:26 AM

@kviiri I know exactly what you mean :(

Ben

11:36 AM

But, thankfully D&D is something that is potentially easy enough to find a game or two for, down at the local university for example :)

Ben

11:47 AM

@kviiri and, I'm sure if you ask nicely enough, people would be willing to play around or a few of LLKoM! Haha

Quentin

12:11 PM

rpg.stackexchange.com/questions/148357 — They're probably just making a nice soup.

Hot RPG Questions

12:41 PM

7

Q: What is Orcus doing with Mind Flayers in the art on the last page of Volo's Guide to Monsters?

On the last page of Volo's Guide to Monsters (p. 224), there is a picture of Orcus, several Mind Flayers, and an Elder Brain standing (although that might not be the best term for the Elder Brain) around what looks to be a large cauldron. Is there any explanation for what they are doing?

dnd-5e books art

Rubiksmoose

@kviiri :( why is that?

@Ben heck yeah! That's what I played for years. Very fun but sadly didn't get to use the changing ability be often

KorvinStarmast

1:24 PM

@nitsua60 Ingots

doppelgreener

@Quentin demiurges gotta have a hobby, theirs is epic meal time

David Coffron

Imagine how powerful Orcus's necromancy (albeit with the aid of a powerful artifact) must be to accomplish this feat when the absolute pinnacle of mortal necromancers can only muster a pair of CR3 undead (compared to this CR 14 atrocity)

Someone_Evil

Thanks, I'm now wondering how long you'd have to cook an Elder Brain before it becomes edible...

David Coffron

@Someone_Evil No need to cook. Chill instead

Someone_Evil

1:40 PM

@DavidCoffron For some reason I expect an EB to be a lot more tenacious (texturally) than a monkey's brain, but I could be wrong

David Coffron

@Someone_Evil Now that's the realm of lore I want in my rulebooks

Someone_Evil

Now the phrase "Deep-fired Beholder" is swimming around my brain

David Coffron

@Someone_Evil Only the deepest friers in the depths of the Underdark produce such a delicacy.

@Someone_Evil My gut assumption is that it would taste like fried calamari

vicky_molokh

@DavidCoffron Or maybe friars of Orcus?

Someone_Evil

"Because roasting a Roc whole is difficult, you are going to want to spatchcock it. To do so take a great-sword, preferably honed, ..."

KorvinStarmast

1:50 PM

@doppelgreener For me that picture was a flash back to the one time I was served brain as part of a meal ... not my thing.

Derpy

@Someone_Evil Deep Fried Gazer was actually a thing in Dragon's Crown

Mark Wells

@DavidCoffron coinsandscrolls.blogspot.com/2017/07/…

doppelgreener

2:11 PM

@KorvinStarmast ooer. nor i.

don't worry! the elder brain is just part of epic meal time club

Carcer

2:49 PM

[mandatory reference to Dungeon Meshi]

eating the dragon is the only way to defeat it for good!

Rubiksmoose

defeat?

Carcer

goddamnit.

David Coffron

@Rubiksmoose Oh dear...

Rubiksmoose

I'm so sorry lol

Carcer

shut up and take your star

Rubiksmoose

2:53 PM

[begrudgingly takes star]

David Coffron

3:09 PM

I'm pondering what the most powerful undead Orcus can create with his wand (assuming applying the skeleton or zombie template as it seems to work in the Monster Manual from the Warhorse Skeleton, Ogre Zombie, and Minotaur Skeleton). The best I've come up with is a Zombified Astral Dreadnaught; can anyone find something better?

A Tarrasque Skeleton is possible, but as it would presumably lose Swallow, Reflective Carapace, and the Natural Armor, it may not be particularly powerful at that point.

However, the fact that Orcus could raise the Tarrasque's skeleton is a testament to his power on its own.

Rubiksmoose

@DavidCoffron that would be terrifying.

David Coffron

@Rubiksmoose It is base on my assumption that the unlisted "skeleton template" sets Constitution to 15 (as it raises the Warhorse to 15, but lowers the Minotaur to 15). It may also round to the nearest 5 or something else entirely, so it's unclear.

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dnd-5e spells

David Coffron

But with my assumptions, a Tarrasque skeleton is no longer as defensive, but just as terrifying offensively.

Rubiksmoose

@DavidCoffron oh wow, a skeleton template seems like something that should have been provided by this point doesn't it?

David Coffron

3:22 PM

@Rubiksmoose Yeah. They put half-dragon in there, but 0 other templates

Rubiksmoose

@DavidCoffron yeah.. that seems like a poor choice honestly. I would think that zombie and skeleton would be two more widely requested templates than half-dragon.

David Coffron

8

Q: Is there a revenant template that can be applied to existing monster statblocks?

In a campaign I'm running, I'm wanting to send a Revenant (MM p. 259) - or a few - after the party. It's of an Orc War Chief (MM p. 246) that they killed after they entered an Orc camp and killed everyone. In 5th Edition, is there a template for Revenants that I can apply to a base Orc War Chief...

dnd-5e undead character-templates

Rubiksmoose

@DavidCoffron huh. I guess that makes sense. In that case it only works because the stats are pretty similar though right?

Though I guess there are already lots of undead versions of things in the MM probably.

David Coffron

@Rubiksmoose Not really.

Just the basic skeleton and zombie, an ogre, a warhorse, and a minotaur

Rubiksmoose

oh wow, I thought I remembered more.

David Coffron

3:28 PM

.... and a couple more obscure ones like the Bone naga and the Dracolich

There's also a beholder zombie that I forgot about

Here's a full list of undead in the Monster Manual

Rubiksmoose

huh. well then. Not a lot to go off of for modifying mosnters to be undead then at all

David Coffron

@Rubiksmoose Yeah. Maybe they'll put a template in an adventure module that has an undead theme.

Rubiksmoose

@DavidCoffron that would be nice. Because honestly "undead version of X" is a super common trope.

David Coffron

@Rubiksmoose Also, the Beholder Zombie breaks my idea of what the Zombie template is supposed to be, so I have no idea now

Rubiksmoose

@DavidCoffron how so?

David Coffron

3:36 PM

It gets the +2 hit dice like the Oger Zombie, but its Constitution goes down

Rubiksmoose

oh. huh. that seems unusual.

David Coffron

Ogre -> Ogre Zombie goes from 16 to 18 Con, while Beholder -> Beholder Zombie goes from 18 to 16 Con

Dexterity drops substantially in both, but it is unclear to me how much it's supposed to: from 8 to 6 in the Ogre vs from 15 to 8 in the Beholder

Xirema

So I love the part of the design of the Alchemist subclass for Artificers where they're allowed to add their INT modifier to any spells they produce that provide healing.... And then only gave them a single spell, Cure Wounds, that actually provides healing. 8)

David Coffron

@Xirema In the most recent UA?

Rubiksmoose

@DavidCoffron whoa that is a substantial drop there for the beholder. I wonder why the beholder is getting all those drops. Is this version supposed to be weaker?

Xirema

3:39 PM

@DavidCoffron Yeah.

David Coffron

@Rubiksmoose It's much weaker, CR 5 for the zombie vs CR 15 for the original

It loses a lot of its eye rays, and the antimagic cone

Rubiksmoose

oh wow. So maybe some of those changes are just reflective of the design goal for this monster to be a weaker beholder?

David Coffron

@Xirema I mean you also get access to acid and poison spells that it buffs

@Rubiksmoose Yeah, I think they avoid a template, because it limits design space. Even with the half-dragons in Rise of Tiamat and Hoard of the Dragon Queen, they don't follow the template in many cases

Xirema

@DavidCoffron Also, fun fact: even if they multiclass, the only healing spell from any other class that A) has a 'roll' for healing, B) has a non-costed, non-consumed material component, is the 7th level spell Regenerate—which they can't even get the bonus on anyways because their Alchemist's Tools are only valid material components for their Artificer spells.

Rubiksmoose

@Xirema I feel like they often forget that the focus only applies to those spells which require those components...

Xirema

3:44 PM

@Rubiksmoose (I wasn't even sure they'd get the bonus for Cure Wounds, itself lacking a material component, until I realized that Artificers' Spellcasting feature retcons in Material Components for all their spells.)

> You produce your artificer spell effects through your tools. You must have a spellcasting focus—specifically thieves' tools or some kind of artisan's tool—in hand when you cast any spell with this Spellcasting feature. You must be proficient with the tool to use it in this way. See chapter 5, "Equipment," in the Player's Handbook for descriptions of these tools.

Rubiksmoose

@Xirema ahhh nice. I'm glad I accidentally played that correctly then lol

Xirema

Ironically, I'm pretty sure that means Artificers cannot use a Component Pouch, or just scavenge the material components for their spells, if they lose their focus.

David Coffron

@Xirema Hm. I mean cure wounds is the most common healing spell, so it is probably enough

@Xirema Yep. Reads like they need the tools themselves

Rubiksmoose

@DavidCoffron that and healing word I'd say.

David Coffron

@Rubiksmoose Yeah, but not every class gets healing word, whereas every class with any healing gets cure wounds

Xirema

3:48 PM

@Rubiksmoose Which they do not get, and if they multiclass for it, they cannot use their tools for it.

Rubiksmoose

@DavidCoffron ah I see what you mean by common. I thought you may have meant "commonly used"

@Xirema right, yeah :-/

David Coffron

@Rubiksmoose How dare you not interpret my ambiguous statement properly!

Rubiksmoose

hahaha. Shame on me!

Carcer

4:06 PM

@Xirema ugh, but that's not actually the same as the spells having material components

Xirema

@Carcer Yeah, but it does at least satisfy the requirement "when you use your alchemist's supplies to cast a spell..."

Carcer

I think a strict reading of the rules actually requires that an artificer casting a spell that has somatic components needs a free hand and to be holding a tool to use as a focus

yeah this just has relevance to an answer I wrote recently

Xirema

@Carcer For spells that don't normally have Material Components, this might be right. Would need to think about it more.

Carcer

... hm, actually I think the wording in the magic rules makes this okay

wait no

it's the sage advice that buggers it

Rubiksmoose

^it's good at doing that

Xirema

4:12 PM

> A spellcaster must have a hand free to access a spell's material components—or to hold a spellcasting focus—but it can be the same hand that he or she uses to perform somatic components.

That's pretty curious wording: The Artificer feature doesn't say it's replicating the Material Components, but it does say it's functioning as a Focus.

Carcer

yeah, I think the way that's written makes it okay

Rubiksmoose

7:46 PM

Quick poll am I a mad person or do "you can not attack with both weapons" and "you cannot attack with both weapons" mean different things?

MikeQ

Technically, they could mean different things - you could interpret 1 as "you are unable to attack" and 2 as "you can choose to not attack"

SmokeDetector

[ SmokeDetector | MS ] Offensive answer detected (79): What is the winged creature on the back of the Mordenkainen's Tome of Foes book? by Felix Danger on rpg.SE

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1

Q: Can a kensei/swashbuckler use an offhand finesse weapon to trigger sneak attack, without using a bonus action?

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Xirema

@Rubiksmoose I think both statements can be ambiguously interpreted, but I don't think there's a semantic difference between them?

trogdor

I feel like the second one could mean you can't attack with either of them

it could be said better but because it says in one word that you can't attack first,.. it sort of feels like that

and it doesn't necessarily mean that, and it's not the first thing I would say it means either, but it could be saying that

Rubiksmoose

7:50 PM

@trogdor yeah to my eyes the first one says "you are able to not attack with the weapons" and the second says "you are not able to attack with the weapons"

trogdor

@Rubiksmoose that could also be a thing, are they both like being said in one place?

Rubiksmoose

grammarist.com/usage/cannot-or-can-not

trogdor

is that why you are asking?

Rubiksmoose

@trogdor No, just one of them, and I was recommending changing it.

trogdor

ah ok

that also makes sense

Xirema