TRPG General Chat

12:22 AM

4

Q: Can the Changeling race change specific body parts?

Can a changeling say they want to transform their arms into one race, change their legs into another, and then change their face into a different race or person. Can that be done? Does their transformation require concentration while they maintain their form?

nitsua60

Today in Your Deities' Temples Aren't Interesting Enough: some of the many brawls among Christian sects at the Church of the Holy Sepulchre

3

Highlights include the pair of people it takes to open the door every morning and the ladder that hasn't been moved for 150 years. Because no one's allowed to.

BESW

heh.

trogdor

I would enjoy those little bits of trivia more if they weren't tied into the monk fistfights but still cool

BESW

There's an interesting compromise in the Underground Prisoners Museum in Acre, along those lines.

trogdor

What kind?

BESW

12:26 AM

The museum is mostly focused on some famous Jewish prisoners held there during the British Mandate, and a related prison break.

Shalvenay

hey there @nitsua60

BESW

But some of the same rooms that those prisoners were held in, were also the rooms that Baha'u'llah and the Holy Family where held in when He was first exiled to Acre.

trogdor

Oooh

I would say that was cool but,.. imprisonment

BESW

So the museum renovated most of the area to how it looked in the 1920s during the Acre Prison Break, but certain parts of the upper floor cells were renovated to reflect the 1868 imprisonment of the Holy Family, and there's an agreement with the Baha'is for pilgrims to have special visiting hours.

linksassin

@nitsua60 Oh man did you just make major changes to the temples and churches in my world! Way more weird rituals coming.

nitsua60

12:30 AM

@Shalvenay hiya

@linksassin I like the one about the guy who sits on the roof to maintain the claim on the roof.

trogdor

@nitsua60 but then people got mad that he moved, ... X/

Shalvenay

@nitsua60 you think we'll be able to talk later this evening?

trogdor

Because screw anyone who doesn't want to bake to death In The sun

nitsua60

@Shalvenay Probably not--about to put the girls to bed, and I'm behind on grading.

Shalvenay

@nitsua60 ah, the only thing worse than doing homework. do have a video I wish to drop you sometime, as well, though :)

BESW

12:33 AM

For example, the second picture in this gallery of International Convention events shows how a particularly (and very sadly) important section of the floor was prepared with the Baha'i pilgrims in mind. (Ash, you may not want to click on that casually.)

user15026

Purest Branch? If so, yeah, not gonna click, and grateful for the warning.

user15026

(It was the saddest bit I could think of)

BESW

Yuuup.

user15026

Okay yep, not enough spoons for that one.

user15026

I'll just eat my hummus and cucumbers (and fight with my cat about how really he doesn't need any hummus)

linksassin

12:46 AM

@nitsua60 "You enter the temple, seated just inside the doorway, slightly in the way is an elderly gnome. He refuses to move. You ask the priest why his there and he simply replies 'No one remembers, but it against the laws of our order to remove him.'"

trogdor

@BESW was this the place you were telling me once that gets the most pilgrimage of all the Baha'i holy site ish places/temples?

BESW

@trogdor Ah... not sure, can't remember that conversation.

The prison is part of the pilgrimage; everyone who goes on a formal pilgrimage goes there along with all the other bits.

For casual access by everybody, the Terraces would be the thing; they're open to tourists most of the time.

trogdor

Ah ok

That might be what I am remembering

There was also some kind of important picture?

Maybe that was somewhere else

BESW

1:04 AM

Ah, that'd be the International Archives Building which is near the Shrine of the Báb, beside the terraces. It contains, among other things, the only official photographs of Bahá'u'lláh (and portrait painting of the Báb), which we don't otherwise display.

trogdor

Yes ok that was it

Now I remember

BESW

You can see the Archives and the other buildings on the arc beside the terraces here, and their relationship to the terraces.

That's on Mount Carmel, in the city of Haifa. The prison is in the city of Acre (formerly 'Akká), on the other side of the bay.

trogdor

Ah

BESW

1:23 AM

Oh hey, Ki Khanga got re-written with established mechanics made by somebody else.

I wonder why.

user15026

@BESW It took me way too long to realize Akka and Acre were teh same

BESW

Also Akko, Akka, ʻAkkā, Acco, Accho, Akke...

It's the old Baha'i orthography thing, where it was spelled 'Akká in the orthography Shoghi Effendi used, and now it's been standardized to Acre for most modern purposes.

And because it's an actual city where actual people live, this is one orthographic change we try to stay on top of with new material, but we leave the old stuff alone for the most part.

user15026

nods it makes sense, I just never thought to click those legos together

trogdor

@BESW absolutely no good reason I protest it vehemently

XP

It's really quite a thing, no one can answer those questions but they all have a decent number of upvotes because a lot of people want the answers to them

BESW

1:42 AM

Often when I ask a question about a niche indie game (Great Ork Gods, Lovecraftesque), I get an answer from the creator themself.

Miniman

@BESW It's cool that they saw the need and weren't too proud to use existing mechanics.

BESW

@Miniman I... assume that's why? The announcement is just the original press release copy-pasted and then a "now in OQ100!" blurb at the end.

Miniman

@BESW Hmmm, interesting.

linksassin

@BESW Sometimes I think about going to find obscure rulebooks just to answer questions like that. But I never have the time/motivation to follow through. For instance I really want to know who mr. smigglesmack is, where he lives and what his level is. Just because the unanswered question bugs me.

Hot RPG Questions

1:59 AM

2

Q: Roll Dice to get a random number between 1 and 150

This question is not actually related to RPGs but is more of a real-world dice rolling scenario I'm looking for help with, from dice rolling experts. I'm currently memorizing the Book of Psalms, which is divided into 150 chapters. I'm looking for an analog, elegant way of quizzing myself, by ro...

dice

linksassin

2:53 AM

@Miniman I think homebrew review questions are valuable because of our strict requirements on backing up your answer. Homebrew reviews on other sites are rarely supported and give a lot of "here's how I would do this instead" type advice which isn't useful.

I also think they are a valuable topic for increasing participation. They are popular with new users and help grow our user base.

Personally I also enjoy asking/answering them. I think it is a unique way to learn about game mechanics and the design consideration for homebrew. I would be disappointed if the community were to rule them o…

Shalvenay

@linksassin yeah -- just because something takes work to answer doesn't make it off-topic

in fact, that can be a strength of the Stack model, handling deep-diving questions that would get derailed/spoiled quickly if asked in a traditional forum

linksassin

@Shalvenay Exactly my view. Lots of people say this is something our model is bad at. I disagree, I think it is something do in a unique way that is very valuable.

Shalvenay

(I've done a few of those "deep dive" answers myself on other Stacks)

(and asked one or two homebrew review questions on RPG.SE as well)

linksassin

Yeah, I've seen questions closed at POB or too-broad simply because they were considered 'too-hard' to answer. I don't think that's a valid reason to close a question.

It's a valid reason to not answer a question, but you shouldn't prevent someone from putting in the effort and answering it if they want to.

Shalvenay

3

Q: What tier is The Way Words Work's version of the Truenamer in?

The D&D 3.5e's original Truenamer is considered so badly broken it's nearly unusable, and in the Tier system, it gets pegged at tier 6 or 7, i.e. it is the lowest of the low. However, the folks on the Giant in the Playground forums have rewritten the class in an attempt to mold the Truenamer int...

dnd-3.5e optimization class

Ben

3:02 AM

@KorvinStarmast Oh cool! At this point we have come up against a small hitch though, the Embrace tree is a bit more slippery than I had originally hoped.

[wave] @everbody

feature-request "@everybody" pings all active members currently in chat (i.e. users that have posted recently in a certain amount of time)

user15026

Nooooo thank you.

trogdor

@Ben yeah no thanks there

linksassin

@Ben I'm going to agree with @Ash on the No thanks. We already get a notification on the tab if there are new messages. I don't need to be pinged as well. Seems like a tool to encourage spam

trogdor

It's bad enough people can do that on Discord

linksassin

@trogdor You can disable it in your discord settings.

trogdor

3:08 AM

True

And I understand it can be useful there, but here please no

Ben

Yeah true.

It is less important than some of the others we've received though

Yuuki

I don't see a use case for @everybody that isn't accomplished with a pin.

And in a much less intrusive manner.

linksassin

@Yuuki This is a good point.

@Ben Not sure what you mean?

trogdor

@Yuuki yes this

Ben

Auto collapsing gifs; groan button; as a few examples

trogdor

3:13 AM

I see no reason for it that justifies the hassle it will start to be

One reason it's worse here than Discord is anyone can come into this room

V2Blast

indeed

linksassin

@trogdor This is true as well.

trogdor

Then they can just ping everyone sitting around here, and regulars will be hit a lot

Ben

make mod names green lol

linksassin

@Ben Neither of those were implemented. The first is ok, though I prefer the no play until clicked option. The groan button will never be implemented for the same reason facebook doesn't have a dislike button. It just opens us up to cyber-abuse for very little benefit

Ben

3:15 AM

I am a person of sarcasm. I don't actually suggest these things seriously.

linksassin

@Ben Making mods green, or diamonding them in chat would be useful though.

Ben

Why did the 🐘 paint it's toenails blue?

Miniman

@linksassin Sorry, I thought your original comment was suggesting that they were valuable to our site, rather than valuable to the world as a whole because we handle them better than other people.

Ben

To hide in the blueberry patch.

Have you ever seen an 🐘 in a blueberry patch?

That's how well it works

trogdor

Those elephants look plenty blue already

Ben

3:20 AM

@trogdor badum-tss

@trogdor 🐘🐘*

trogdor

They are the most blue elephants I have ever seen

linksassin

@Miniman It was. I do think they are valuable to our site.

trogdor

9/10 blue, can barely be bluer

Yuuki

@linksassin There's a chat extension that I use which includes a feature that grays out images and gifs unless moused over.

This should be made baseline.

trogdor

That would be pretty nice actually

Ben

3:23 AM

@linksassin and anyone else interested, feel like joining me in another room (tbr?) to discuss the corruption system? (Unless people feel it is ok to chat about it here)

@trogdor [sad trombone]

Yuuki

@Ben If anything, this would be more on-topic than talking about chat features.

Ben

Hahah

turwe

trogdor

Yeah it's pretty on topic

Usually we are way more off topic than actual RPG design

Miniman

@linksassin Why?

linksassin

@Ben A room specifically for it would be a good idea. That makes logging the history easier. It's been going on for a while. Though it certainly isn't off topic here

Ben

3:25 AM

@linksassin That is a good point.

linksassin

@Miniman They are popular questions which attract new users, often hitting the HNQ. Our community seems to appreciate them when well asked. They are every bit as valuable as any other type of question. IMO.

Ben

cc @chat-mod; request a new room?

linksassin

@Ben You can make one yourself.

trogdor

@Ben you can make one

I even did it once

Ben

Ok coolies

Open Invite

trogdor

3:28 AM

Yeah there you go

It's still on topic here honestly, but this could make it easier for you to find everything discussed about it if people want to go there

linksassin

@Miniman I'm actually curious to why you don't see value in them. Other than that they are often poorly asked.

Miniman

@linksassin They don't attract new users in the usual sense of that phrase - new users ask them. As it turns out, everything hits HNQ. And yeah, they get upvoted when they're well asked. But that's the exception not the rule.

As for why they're not as valuable as other questions, other questions are useful for anyone playing D&D 5e, or Pathfinder, (for example). These questions are useful to one person.

Ben

@trogdor Yeah, linksassin's comment about an easy "development history" got me sold :)

Miniman

There's an argument to be made that homebrew balance questions in aggregate are useful to anyone trying to homebrew as examples of pitfalls and so on, but...eh.

linksassin

@Miniman I disagree with that. I often review homebrew questions for inspiration or read the high voted answers that discuss how to keep things in balance. It's useful advice that I'm not sure would be captured by other questions.

I think that any question that would provide the same information without a specific homebrew example would be too broad and get closed.

@Miniman I won't disagree that many are poorly asked and we could do better to enforce a higher standard for them.

Miniman

3:36 AM

@linksassin Well, yeah. That's the argument I mentioned about the questions as an aggregate. But really, that body of advice is no different here than on giantitp, or minmaxforum.

(It baffles me that anyone could think we handle these better than forums do, but that's a completely different discussion.)

linksassin

@Miniman Sorry, your second post hadn't come through by the time I wrote that.

I think we handle them better because the bad advice gets downvoted. On gitp or other forums anyone can contribute an unfounded opinion. We have a higher standard of answer here.

Miniman

@linksassin Ah, right. Sorry, I jumped the gun a bit there.

linksassin

@Miniman All good.

Do I think they are our best questions? No. But I certainly don't want to see them disappear.

I wouldn't mind a policy of closing as duplicate or off-topic if they haven't made significant changes/improvement between versions.

Shalvenay

@linksassin yeah, with incoming users, the big determinant of their success or failure is their willingness to engage with the question-workshopping process

linksassin

@Shalvenay Unfortunately far too many users take it as criticism of them rather than an effort to help.

Shalvenay

3:44 AM

@linksassin yeah, it can even be tough when all you are asking are purely technical questions, trying to get the details of what the querent is asking about

(I've been snapped at once on DIY for asking someone for pics of a situation they were in when I could tell that their description was incomplete, and had countless instances where my requests for further information simply went nowhere, and even a few users who engaged in extensive back-and-forths for a while, then simply...vanished before I could get enough info to answer their question)

linksassin

Aug 21 '18 at 15:38, by Mike Q

Another thing: Most, if not all, DMs overestimate their ability to communicate and explain information

Same root cause I think

Should probably make it people not just DMs.

MikeQ

@linksassin Well yes, that's sort of the basis behind that statement. Specifically it was from a discussion (and is relephant to future discussions) about TTRPGs and DM borkups in conveying the narrative/themes/plot hooks/expectations

linksassin

@MikeQ And it is an excellent statement. I like it a lot.

MikeQ

In other words, it's often the root cause behind "Why are my players doing / not doing XYZ". And in extreme cases, it's the invisible dragon problem.

linksassin

@Shalvenay See this meta for a recent argument from a new user. Dpgr and myself tried really hard to help them but they refuse to listen.

@MikeQ Well.... really the players should have had their dragon proof shield readied. Their fault.

MikeQ

3:58 AM

Anyhoo, a more direct analogue would be experienced stack users grumbling about "Why are the newcomers doing / not doing X? Shouldn't they know better by now?"

linksassin

@MikeQ But more seriously yes. That is an excellent point. I believe in describing the most important thing last. A narrowing focus on the room from broad to focused to ensure you don't leave out critical information.

@MikeQ True, I don't think we were grumbling about why they don't do better. We were saying why do they take advice as criticism. I think it's as much our problem as theirs.

MikeQ

That depends on the person and how the criticism is given

Some folks just want their ideas and creativity to be validated, so any critiques other than complements will be interpreted as an insult

@linksassin And yes, that's a nice technique. But remember, the crux of the invisible dragon problem isn't the lack of info itself, but that the players are penalized based on poorly communicated info.

linksassin

Over on writing.se. I wrote a post on how to write a good stack exchange comment do you think there is anything I could improve in that approach to better engage new users?

@MikeQ Hmm... that is more difficult to avoid. The DM will also think they did communicate it and struggle to understand why the players are frustrated.

Ben

Without reading that - I feel like the main issue is that most users come from the "Open Forum" perspective. They don't want criticism or any constructive comments; they just want answers.

MikeQ

@linksassin Yep. And now you understand why the problem is a common problem, and not just an outlier in the extreme realm of "nightmare DMs"

linksassin

4:08 AM

I like to repeat information back to the players when they say something. For instance in this situation I would say something like: "You are going to rush out into the room. Remember there is a high ceiling and you can't see everything. Are you doing anything special as you enter?"

@Ben There is certainly a learning curve to the stack. I'll admit to having a clash or two with experienced users early on. That's part of the reason I try to be as welcoming as possible to new users.

Ben

Yeah. I started over on SO, but my history of forums was limited at most, so I was able to adapt to the standards pretty easily.

linksassin

@Ben I'm much the same. This is the first place I've stayed beyond a post or two. I think it was the standard of moderation that made me stay. I don't like staying anywhere that accepts toxic behaviour.

Ben

Exactly. Some people see it as a crutch, but it really is an advantage

Ben

4:29 AM

So; next marvel "origin" movie: Black Widow and Hawkeye - Budapest

linksassin

@Ben Doubt it will be a movie. It anything it will be a tv show on Disney+

trogdor

5:26 AM

I think the moderation standards here have some give and take honestly

Like there are a lot of good things about it but it does sometimes scare off new users who might have been good additions to the community here

And it can sometimes encourage it's own toxic behavior

Ben

Yeah. It's very much a "minimum standard". Which unfortunately can be misinterpreted as an elitist thing

trogdor

Like getting mad at someone for not knowing the rules around here

linksassin

Agree, but if that is the case then we are failing at moderation. I don't think we are "getting mad" at people for not knowing the rules.

trogdor

Well regardless of what it is, it could still look like that

V2Blast

@linksassin Agreed. Sometimes there's a help pile-on when a bunch of users post the same thing in a row (usually at the same time), which can scare some people off. But largely I think the community moderates itself well

linksassin

5:32 AM

@V2Blast That's largely because of the review queue on first posts I think. A bunch of us jump on it and then comment before we load each others comments

trogdor

And yeah I'm not trying to say it's more bad than good, just that it isn't a perfect system

V2Blast

@linksassin ah, very true. it shows stuff without much context there

linksassin

One think I don't love it how heartless some of the automatic comments from review are. They are very black and white.

Ben

@trogdor The problem is that intention is ambiguous. Extra effort is required to send the intended message. That's why these days people add "Lol" or a smiley to everything they say, so that it cannot be misinterpreted as sarcastic or harsh

I am one such person. My texts can sometimes be along the lines of "Haha. […] :) […] Lol"

trogdor

@Ben yeah that's true

Ben

6:09 AM

Why not just roll 3d10, and half one d10?

So 2 blue d10s (percentile) and a red one, which the result is halved?

Or actually, 2 percentiles. Halve one

That seems the easiest, no?

Stackstuck

...that doesn't work, does it?

Ben

2d10

Dice Service

10

7

Stackstuck

Because 1d100+1d50 cannot create a 1.

Ben

So, 7

2d10

Dice Service

6:17 AM

10

2

Ben

+1

(That was a horrendous example haha)

Stackstuck

...I have no idea what you're doing.

Ben

On a percentile dice "10" is "00". so those rolls are actually just a 7 and a 2.

MikeQ

I think he's rolling on the shock table

Stackstuck

Hah.

Okay yeah huh I guess it would work.

Ben

6:19 AM

You halve the result of the second roll, so, 1

Stackstuck

Or at least so sayeth anydice.com/program/14c5e

linksassin

@Stackstuck Nice proof that that isn't a fair distribution.

The Oracle

0

Q: Is asking about making specific dice in specific dice-rolling utilities on topic?

For instance, let's say I want to ask the question "I want to make an Anima: Beyond Fantasy die in the Rolisteam dice roller, how do I do that?". (As it happens, I do want to ask this question, since making an Anima: Beyond Fantasy die is nontrivial (explosions, for one, require specific behavio...

support questions on-topic

CTWind

Is my comment a silly point to make? I feel like I should probably delete it, I'm not sure that it helps improves the answer.

Ben

6:36 AM

@CTWind Like a 7 sided die, a 15 sided die is impractical, which is why they don't exist?

So it's sort of just pointing out the details of why they don't exist

V2Blast

7:08 AM

I've come to the conclusion that there are too many questions about War Caster and reach and/or Polearm Master

linksassin

@V2Blast You're not wrong. Hopefully soon we will have covered every combination and can mark them as dupes

Stackstuck

@linksassin ty. I just happened to have the site open.

Meanwhile: these dice are complicated :/ rpg.stackexchange.com/questions/147229/…

Miniman

@V2Blast It's not so much that we have too many questions. It's that the rules are way too vague and ambiguous.

V2Blast

@Miniman Eh. I don't think they're that ambiguous, especially since the reach property was clarified in the first PHB errata. Some people just seem to be trying to find loopholes in it.

linksassin

@V2Blast I think that's the more likely explanation. Polearm Master comes up a lot in broken or extremely optimised builds. People see them and go "oh... I can exploit it like this!!" then ask about it.

V2Blast

7:20 AM

@linksassin Pretty much. And War Caster, since it lets you cast a spell instead of an opportunity attack. I think that's the trickier/more ambiguous one, since you're not attacking with a weapon at all - and it doesn't specify that you can't replace a reach weapon's opportunity attack with the spell

linksassin

@V2Blast You can replace a reach attack with it can't you? One of those stupid reasons magic users should carry a whip

V2Blast

6

A: War Caster, a whip and a dagger, and provoking Opportunity Attacks

The errata for the PHB includes this fix for reach weapons: This property also determines your reach for opportunity attacks with a reach weapon. So when a creature moves from 5 feet away to 10 feet away, you can make an opportunity attack with your dagger or cast a spell using War Caster. ...

Miniman's answer probably makes the best RAW case why that shouldn't work

but even then, it's an iffy argument against

the intent is that War Caster spell provoked by reach weapon OA shouldn't work:

@henryhiggins47 The intent is that any OA triggered because you're wielding a polearm is then made with that polearm. @mikemearls

Tweeted by JeremyECrawford on March 23, 2015 at 10:50 PM in reply to henryhiggins47

linksassin

I agree that is likely RAI but I think NautArch's answer is actually more compelling by RAW.

Ben

8:55 AM

Dragon's breath has two sets of targets: the creature you give the breath weapon to and the creatures in the area of effect created by the spell. #DnD https://twitter.com/zoozeki/status/944278238905352192

Tweeted by JeremyECrawford on December 22, 2017 at 6:51 PM

[Sputters in disbelief]

Miniman

@Ben Yeah, it's extremely stupid.

Ben

Latest question is arguing this point - how cover interacts with the "targeting" of Dragon's breath.

trogdor

hmm I wonder why I dislike handing things down as law via Twitter

oh wait I just have to look up

:/

Ben

My understanding is that you aim the effect of the spell in a direction. Normal AoE rules then apply.

Someone_Evil

I'm guessing JC is using target in the sense of 'creature affected', which is problematic as the word has a specific meaning in the game

Ben

9:08 AM

Yeah, you would aim it at a creature, therefore they would become the "target". However, it becomes ambiguous with existing wording of other rules.

I'm glad they made his stuff officially unofficial.

All JC tweets now redirect to dandwiki

Stackstuck

JC WTF

Someone_Evil

We might also want to mention that the context of that tweet is twinned spell, which - as this site can attest to - has a slew of problems with its wording and function.

BESW

10:49 AM

Attempts to translate the menu with the internet has given us “Cattle War Two” and “Tomato Terror.”

Tweeted by UrsulaV on May 1, 2019 at 8:08 AM in reply to UrsulaV

Someone_Evil

@BESW 'One Tomato Terror, please'

BESW

"Cattle War Two" has got to be made into a mini RPG.

Oh, and speaking of mini RPGs, these one card RPGs by Sangjun have some great moments.

Hot RPG Questions

11:27 AM

2

Q: A foe leaves the reach of my 5-foot reach sword. Can I make an Opportunity Attack with my 10-foot reach whip?

This is a follow up to the question: When are Opportunity Attacks provoked while holding a reach and a non-reach weapon? The answers establish pretty solidly that if I hold a weapon with a reach of 5 feet (say, a sword) and another weapon with a reach of 10 feet (say, a whip), an adjacent foe st...

dnd-5e weapons opportunity-attack reach

Zachiel

11:38 AM

> You can have the best build in the world, if your character has no personality if will still feel empty.

> If you preplan your whole build, your character will either be stale or they will take seemingly forced choices.

BESW

12:00 PM

Destroying the Mythical Norm: A Call for Intersectional Larp Design and Play

►

Rubiksmoose

@V2Blast I've talked with them before about this, but I don't think that answer makes any case at all actually...

doppelgreener

@BESW possibly featuring a flashback mechanic back to cattle war one

trogdor

everyone fears Cattle War Three

@BESW this is great and I am glad you linked it here as well because I forgot you did in Discord

even though I am technically not interested specifically in LARP itself

XD

BESW

12:18 PM

The principles are pretty universal, I think.

trogdor

yes exactly

I mean yeah there are some specifically LARP, or probably more LARP involved problems

but almost all of it can be applied to, tabletop RPG stuff

and a lot of it can also be applied just slightly differently to other things

BESW

"Less of a Question, More of a Comment," by James Mendez Hodes. (contains bonus discussion of Pearl from Steven Universe as a Filipina woman!)

doppelgreener

7

Q: ModColorFix for Chat

Just a very very simple userscript that changes the moderator usernames in chat from blue to green. Requested by and built for @doppelgreener on becoming a mod. Link to Github Repo Link to install Any problems, ideas, etc, drop me a line here or at Github, and I'll see what I can do :)

script chat

Zachiel

I wonder if writers are ever stuck at the second act of the Three-Act Story like I am as a roleplayer and a human.

doppelgreener

someone fixed the mod name color :D

BESW

12:29 PM

@Zachiel Most of the writers whose process I know, jump around a lot.

Beverly Cleary often wrote the last page first, then started at the beginning and wrote toward the end.

Ursula Vernon writes scenes, and figures out what goes inbetween them later.

Zachiel

Mhh. It becomes hard when one is writing improvides, sequential scenes in collaborative writing like I am

BESW

Yup, RPGs don't actually benefit a whole lot from importing writing techniques.

Zachiel

I just think my characters are already how I'd like them to be in the end, but then something happens and they change in directions I don't like or I don't want them to change.

BESW

RPGs are more akin to improvisational theater than novels or scripts, but as a culture we're more familiar with the latter so that's where we tend to look for cues.

Zachiel

@BESW I think they can use a subset of techniques, and maybe some techniques that would be bad for "conventional" writing.

This still stems from my frustration at roleplaying "good" (I'm talking about the quality, not the alignment) characters.

And sometimes I think it's not an art I was born for, but it's still something I'd love to be able to do. My heart aches.

doppelgreener

12:42 PM

the second act is the fun bit

Zachiel

(I have had this conversation today with a "good" player who told me "don't think about your build. Change it as your character changes". And I was all "but that would need me to spend more time replanning and also costs XP". I guess I care about seeing my characters becoming able to do cool things and I'm not good enough at identifying what to do to do cool things that don't depend on my build.)

doppelgreener

but in roleplaying i think acts only get identified in retrospect from whatever naturally evolves, and don't just occur in play cleanly and identifiably like they do in the reading of a story, except when they're being very deliberately and intentionally explored and plotted by everyone in charge of the storytelling

Zachiel

@doppelgreener In my game, everyone is in charge of the storytelling, a large part of the game is just free roleplay sessions where characters talk with each other.

doppelgreener

cool, definitely not a kind of game i expect character and story arc acts to be a thing then

Zachiel

Some scenes are characters planning about their next adventure, discussing about their last one or playing out implications (and in my case it's always "I couldn't save them, I'm horrible at doing the right thing")

Some other are about meeting new people or talking about existential things.

doppelgreener

12:48 PM

I like to make characters who have a small piece of myself I want to explore in them, and also who are interesting people in a compelling place in their life for the story we're about to go in. Then I go forward, play and explore and have fun, and see how the character develops in retrospect given my actions in response to situations the game presented.

But all that play and development is just a continuous flow from the point of view of doing it; I don't have any act structure present at any point. That's a novel structuring tool, for structure that doesn't exist while roleplaying.

Zachiel

I mean, I have seen this scene where two players were talking about people who wronged them and they were telling each other that they would have helped each other with revenge. It was cool. Meanwhile, I was talking to a priest of the god of taking problems upon theitr shoulders about how bad I was at doing things.

doppelgreener

In retrospect I might be able to identify plot moments and turning points, and might be able to say "that was act one, then this plot point happened, and it became act two", but that's all just post-hoc analysis.

trogdor

@doppelgreener that's very similar to what I do a lot of the time

Although I also make some characters who are decidedly different from me

doppelgreener

@trogdor I've made those too, like Cassandra the Alchemist was meant to be that, but they still pretty much always have a piece of me in them to explore.

(I mean this is just something I've noticed in retrospect: I don't even usually set out to do that, but at some point I notice "oh, right, there it is.")

Zachiel

Here it is!
That part about making compelling and compelled characters. I can't seem to write characters who really want to do something specific. My current aim is "to be a good person, to live according to the dogma of my god, to help others" - but not by spending gold, because Out Of Character gold is a finite resource and I don't like "wasting" it on things that are not improving the character's chances at combat. Which is not what I'd call "good" roleplaying, there's some sort of bad reward cycle going on here.

trogdor

12:52 PM

@doppelgreener Yeah that's fair, I typically see it later too

Zachiel

@doppelgreener This is always bound to happen, trust me.

trogdor

Though there are characters I made that I have trouble finding much of myself in at all

doppelgreener

@Zachiel I'd say D&D sounds totally inappropriate for the stories it sounds like you're interested in, but I know you're not going to leave that game and would rather not engage that conversation route again.

So ... that's ... you know, a bad thing, and that's going to happen, but whatever.

Zachiel

@doppelgreener Thank you for not going that route. I just constantly wonder about how other people can get that sort of characters in D&D. Probably they just care less about wasted resources.

How do I care less about wasted resources? How do I stop worrying about it?

doppelgreener

That's assuming the premise they actually do

or can at all

Zachiel

12:55 PM

I've had some suggest "maybe you should spend some resources". Yeah, thanks, now that I know it will surely be easier </sarcasm>

doppelgreener

You're playing outside the bounds of the game, so [shrug]

Zachiel

What do you mean with outside the bonds? It looks to me that they are doing that, not me.

Was it an impersonal "you"?

BESW

Yeah, a lot of the answer to "how did that happen in D&D?" is "Well, it happened outside the bounds of the game system within a game which also used D&D for stuff."

As for other ways to help people... service to others is not just about physical charity.

Zachiel

@BESW Yeah, this one I get. What irks me a real lot is that it's not just something that happens outside D&D, it's something that clashes hard with what I think D&D is. How can you not care about getting more out of your gold? Also, is this the same problem that stops me from feeling satisfied when playing D&D at the table?

doppelgreener

@Zachiel It's like "so how do soccer players churn really good butter during the game anyway, because I never seem to manage doing it well?" — why are you churning butter during a football game? you're not meant to do that during football. no wonder you're not doing it well. who's doing that? what do you expect in terms of support from the game of football in being able to churn butter while playing it? if you're churning butter, you're probably not doing football right now.

That was a personal you-specifically "you"

BESW

12:59 PM

@Zachiel Right, absolutely. This is why people keep ramming up against "why are you playing D&D if these are your goals?"

Because service is offering time and labor, it's listening and encouraging and empowering, it's validating and connecting and walking alongside.

David Coffron

@Zachiel What do you mean by "wasted resources"? I've had success with characters who are partly defined by using everything they can of hunted prey or slain enemies (the Lizardfolk is a good fit for this)

BESW

And those aren't modes which D&D really... remembers exist.

doppelgreener

D&D 3.5e is structured to give you certain amounts of gold which it expects you to funnel almost entirely into your character's personal combat effectiveness or extremely important magic which directly resolves issues in the plot. It is absolutely no coincidence you feel like you should not be spending gold outside of this scope, because that's 100% what the game expects.

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