TRPG General Chat

Daniel Zastoupil

10:00 PM

Not sure if that's quite the same as what JC's saying, though.

BESW

Hmm. That gave me Nice Answer but not Enlightened.

Daniel Zastoupil

He's saying "DM's and Adventure Designers are Gods, and Players are People. Gods don't have to listen to People laws"

Rubiksmoose

@BESW I think my emotional reaction to this tells me to definitely stay away from this kind of RPG.

David Coffron

@DanielZastoupil Okay well, more directly then (cc: @illustro )

Daniel Zastoupil

That fits!

Also: Sad

BESW

10:02 PM

@Rubiksmoose That's fair. I've found that I enjoy the genre in small doses except that it has a tendency to very quickly delve into subjects I don't want to go anywhere near. I've been working on divorcing the common themes from the common content so I can enjoy it more.

Axoren

@BESW I think if someone answers before you and deletes their answer, you can't get Enlightened.

Also, I don't know if you need 10 upvotes BEFORE it's accepted.

David Coffron

Are we reopening this

BESW

@Axoren That didn't happen, but it IS a SAQ and that might be the problem.

Colin Gross

@DavidCoffron I think I already voted to re-open.

David Coffron

Also, what is this nonsense

Daniel Zastoupil

10:03 PM

Note to self: answer every question first with a one word answer, and then just fill in the relevant stuff afterwards to improve my chances of getting Enlightened.

NautArch

@DavidCoffron i voted to open

BESW

Let's try this one, if anybody thinks it's worthy of an upvote.

Rubiksmoose

Given the already-sensitive subject matter of this question and the fact it represents a significant scope change, I am re-removing the starspawn scenario. Please do not add it back. If you want to ask about that scenario specifically, please do so in a new, separate question. — doppelgreener ♦ 50 secs ago

^Good mod :)

Xirema

@Rubiksmoose I think that's a fair response.

Colin Gross

@Rubiksmoose Wasn't there a recent meta about editing questions that changes the scope or form of the answers?

Rubiksmoose

10:10 PM

@ColinGross There have been a couple. One more specific and more recent than the others.

Our policy generally is: don't.

MikeQ

If we're going for Enlightened badges, I wouldn't mind some spare upvotes

Colin Gross

@Rubiksmoose I get than policy, but usually when a question gets put on hold, the comments are requests to do just that.

I had that happen to me with the sneak attack and gwf implication.

KorvinStarmast

@Xirema I suppose you can, but the voters might not be warm to that.

Rubiksmoose

@ColinGross Well if it is closed that means there is an issue that needs fixing. If fixing the issue requires changing the scope of the question I have found that we are willing to generally deal with that cleanup.

Xirema

@KorvinStarmast Well, I basically did, just in more eloquent prose.

KorvinStarmast

10:12 PM

@Szega Did I end up reopening that? I remember seeing a "duped" on it, closed, and then when I edited out some errors, I no longer saw "dupe." Did my gold hammer undo what you did? (Not intended ...)

Daniel Zastoupil

Hey, guys, could use your advice for a 5e subclass homebrew I've been trying to design. Is this the right place for that kind of stuff?

Szega

@KorvinStarmast The timeline shows you removed the dupe mark.

Colin Gross

@Rubiksmoose So change the scope of the question if the question gets put on hold, but not if it doesn't get put on hold.

David Coffron

@Xirema I approve (from a literary sense) of referring to Jesus as an Archlich, but others might not (referring to Jesus as undead and as a wizard are each sensitive topics)

MikeQ

@DanielZastoupil Yes, I asked this the other day. This chat is fine.

Xirema

10:14 PM

@DanielZastoupil Yeah, and it would definitely be a better topic of discussion than what came previously. =)

KorvinStarmast

@Szega Holy smokes, I ended up reopening that. I just checked the edit history. Arrgh, I am so sorry about that. I bet it was in the review queue and I clicked on "edit and reopen" rather than must edit. My bad, man, all my bad.

Rubiksmoose

@ColinGross I would not say it like that no. If a question has an issue that requires a significant edit to reopen sometimes we make the edit. Sometimes we request them open a new question if it is drastic enough. It is pretty situational. But being put on hold is not a sign that you can change the question as much as you want.

Colin Gross

@Xirema Maybe not. The homebrew class could be a mutant kangaroo with no rules about what happens to the grenade throwing joey when you cast banish on it.

David Coffron

@DanielZastoupil If it will be a long discussion though, may want to make a new chatroom so that people who want to see the stuff can go there ;)

Xirema

@ColinGross If that proves to be the case, I will retract my previous comment. ;)

Daniel Zastoupil

10:16 PM

Alrighty then. I'm wanting to make a Barbarian that fits a niche that hasn't really been explored much. I want to address the concern that most Barbarians want to be Raging all of the time, and that they don't multiclass very well, and come up with something that breaks those habits.

Szega

@KorvinStarmast Don't worry, it happens :)

Colin Gross

@Rubiksmoose by that yardstick, then the scope shift of with the chest burster or alien horror whatever should have been fine. That edit war happened when there was a VtC and while it was closed, yes?

Daniel Zastoupil

So a Barbarian that still Rages, but only for very short bursts, and that multiclasses well with casters.

The Oracle

2

Q: Deleting of "bad" answers by Stackizens seems to be increasing

Until recently, I feel like I have very rarely seen the deletion of answers that aren't clearly spam by other site users, but that seems to have changed. I have noticed an increase of 'bad' answer deletion and I'm not sure that's the correct use of the tool, but I wanted to bring it up for discu...

discussion

David Coffron

@DanielZastoupil I mean, rages are always short bursts

Daniel Zastoupil

10:17 PM

1 minute is roughly an entire battle.

MikeQ

@DanielZastoupil As in, switch between raging and casting, on the scale of rounds?

David Coffron

Oh, you mean short bursts within 1 encounter

Colin Gross

@TheOracle Is there a data API for the stack. I feel like there's got to be a few of us that could knock together some decent stats and visualizations in short order given the data.

Daniel Zastoupil

And if Barbarians could, they'd be raging all the time, every day.

Xirema

@DanielZastoupil (At level 20, they can)

Rubiksmoose

10:18 PM

@ColinGross It was still open when the edit happened.

Daniel Zastoupil

Sure. I think they can even do that when they're like level 15, or something.

NautArch

@DanielZastoupil so you're looking for a build that allows casting while raging?

David Coffron

I played a multiclass wizard/barbarian a while ago and he basically toggled between rage and spell slots to spread out his resources throughout the day

Rubiksmoose

@ColinGross And also the edit was in no way attempting to fix a problem with the question.

Xirema

@DanielZastoupil I'm actually not sure what the level 15 feature does; I'm reasonably certain it only prevents the rage from ending due to being unable to attack in a given turn or similar issues, but I don't think it extends the duration beyond a minute.

Colin Gross

10:19 PM

@Rubiksmoose yeah, but if you're getting flak and there is already a VtC, that's basically a kick in the pants to modify the question.

Daniel Zastoupil

No, I'm looking to make a barbarian subclass that has reasons not to Rage. Make Rage feel like an actual resource rather than "approval to do a fight".

David Coffron

@DanielZastoupil Persistant Rage just means your rage doesn't end early. It still ends when the time runs out

Xirema

Someone correct me if I'm mistaken, it's not something I've looked at too closely.

David Coffron

@Xirema You are right

Colin Gross

@Rubiksmoose Seemed like a re-framing with different nouns to make it more palatable.

Daniel Zastoupil

10:20 PM

Right now, Rage feels like something that just says "Yes, I can participate". It's a countdown of how many fights you can contribute. That's a terrible resource, right there.

Rubiksmoose

@ColinGross Sure it can be a sign to make edits. But this crossed multiple lines. Maybe if it was just one it would have been acceptable, but it seems like it was too much.

NautArch

@DanielZastoupil I"m not sure I understand :( Simply multiclassing them with a caster class would give them a reason not to rage, no?

@DanielZastoupil You can still very much contribute, you just don't do it as well.

It's similar to a paladin's spell slots. They do their thing much better when they use them, but they can get away with not using them.

David Coffron

@DanielZastoupil I disagree. Barbarians are already fairly competent just from their weapon proficiencies an Unarmored Defense (and slew of hit points). Rage is just a useful click up for the more difficult fights

Xirema

@DanielZastoupil I think I would frame challenge you on this point: Barbarians gain a lot of benefits from raging, but their baseline "non-raging" state is still pretty competent.

David Coffron

(@Xirema you and I are like saying the same thing over and over again lol)

Xirema

10:21 PM

@DavidCoffron We're in the Drift!

Rubiksmoose

Good meta btw @NautArch. It is something that has been rolling around in the back of my mind recently as well.

Daniel Zastoupil

Sure, but combining with a caster is a very bad decision. Can't concentrate while Raging, can't cast, and there are few spells that work with the Barbarian's abilities. I'm not saying the Barbarian sucks, I'm saying that their one major thing doesn't really feel like a limited resource.

Xirema

@DanielZastoupil Well, what features are you proposing for this subclass?

David Coffron

Fair enough; do you have a proposed solution, or are you looking for ideas

NautArch

@DanielZastoupil But you just said you want them ohave a reason NOT to rage. And that's a reason...

MikeQ

10:22 PM

Barbarian/caster isn't bad. It just means they can't cast and rage at the same time.

David Coffron

(@Xirema c'mon man, stahp it)

Daniel Zastoupil

It just ends up something that says how many fights you're allowed to fight at 100% in. As opposed to a Paladin, who can control how much effort you put in based on spell slots spent at the right times.

Colin Gross

@Rubiksmoose I can understand how the question strikes some as unsettling, but aside from that, which lines was it crossing?

Rubiksmoose

@ColinGross The line where it moved the goal post for every answer that had already been posted by dramatically shifting the scenario.

Colin Gross

Commenters were complaining, and the poster appeared to modify the question in reaction.

Daniel Zastoupil

10:23 PM

That's it, not 100% sure on what I'd like to see it do. I'm thinking some kind of explosive Rage activation that refreshes on a short rest vs a long one.

NautArch

@DanielZastoupil But that's still the choice of "I'm going to use this now". I've gone through fights not using any spell slots as a paladin and still felt effective. A barbarian can do the same. I guess I don't really understand the source problem you're proposing.

Colin Gross

@Rubiksmoose shifting the ethical frame of it, but not the mechanics of it.

NautArch

The barbarian's rage to increase their combat capability IS their one resource.

Rubiksmoose

The commentators were complaining about the sensative nature and grotesqueness and they edited to... add more of it?

MikeQ

@DanielZastoupil Since this is mostly meant for multiclass builds, it may fare better as a feat rather than an entire barbarian subclass. Subclasses are typically designed with the intent to gain all the subclass features.

Daniel Zastoupil

10:24 PM

That's just one specific weakness for the Barbarian

Colin Gross

@Rubiksmoose I find the bear scenario less palatable then some alien thing-a-ma-bob.

KorvinStarmast

@DanielZastoupil It takes a while of playing 5e for some players to glom onto the resources management piece, and likewise some DMs. rage is a resource.

Rubiksmoose

@ColinGross Doesn't matter. All the answers were already written and they would all have had to edit it to accomodate the new question.

MikeQ

Rage is a resource, just like spell slots, bardic inspiration, and whatever the purple fighter guy does. Having a limited resource is not a weakness.

Daniel Zastoupil

How many Barbarians have you seen not use Rage in a medium difficulty fight?

KorvinStarmast

10:25 PM

@Rubiksmoose We already have one answer that decided that it needed to drag RL politics into this. sad face

Daniel Zastoupil

Or rather, when have you ever seen a Barbarian decide to SAVE his Rage for later?

NautArch

@DanielZastoupil It's going to be very table dependent. HOw many fights/day does the table do? HOw much does it actually come up that they have to watch that resource?

Colin Gross

@Rubiksmoose That happens to like half of my questions. It provokes less ire.. and I've had to change the mechanics in my questions

KorvinStarmast

@DanielZastoupil The guy I play with all of the time. He was a barbarian in 2014, he is a barbarian now, and all he plays is Barbarians. He has to be prompted to rage sometimes, but he is aware of its status as a resource.

MikeQ

@DanielZastoupil Often? When the players expect multiple combats per adventuring day?

Xirema

10:27 PM

@ColinGross I can't speak for everyone else (obviously) but for me, the line crossed was the part where the only answer that would have directly addressed the OP's main question, irrespective of the edits, would have involved answering one or more of the questions I stated in my answer that I felt were inappropriate to answer on this site. Because they all broach up against that "personhood" question. And we're not a Stack that should be answering those kinds of questions.

KorvinStarmast

+1 to that

Xirema

I don't think there should be a site, governed by upvotes and downvotes, that tries to answer those kinds of questions.

Daniel Zastoupil

Table dependency shouldn't be an issue, honestly. Wizards and Warlocks exist as classes, despite having different power levels based on many-few fights.

David Coffron

@DanielZastoupil Yes

MikeQ

Once the barbarian's player figures out resource management, they'll use rage as their "big guns", similar to when the wizard pulls out the high level spells. They don't need to rage all the time.

NautArch

10:28 PM

@DanielZastoupil But it is. If your table only does 2-3 battles a day, then a barbarian doesn't have to manage. THey can always use it.

There's never a need to not use it

KorvinStarmast

Bingo.

Daniel Zastoupil

So...it's not a resource then?

NautArch

@MikeQ or when a paladin drops smites

Daniel Zastoupil

It's just a passive feature?

Rubiksmoose

@ColinGross Well I can't argue with a generality and I don't know the specifics of your cases. We aren't monolithic here and different questions and different groups of people see things differently. We interpret policies and rules differently at times too.

NautArch

10:28 PM

@DanielZastoupil It's a resource. absolutely.

but if your table doesn't have enough combats to have it be meaningful resource...

KorvinStarmast

@DanielZastoupil How do get "passive feature" out of rage?

BESW

@Xirema I rather agree, but issues of personhood and dehumanization are already baked into the games we play. This isn't a new thing, just a particularly egregious example that's prominent in the public discourse now.

0

A: The Large Hatron Collider Woolly Hatastrophe 2018: Winterbash Photo Album

Retro Fan: Originals In 2015 I put doctors in the Fourth Doctor's hat and scarf. In 2016, famously awful fathers got to wear Darth Vader's mask. In 2017 detectives wore Sherlock Holmes's hat. This year I'll be putting the Retro Fan glasses on original versions of characters with multiple iterat...

Daniel Zastoupil

@KorvinStarmast Have fewer fights per day than you have Rages per day.

KorvinStarmast

@DanielZastoupil You still have to turn on rage in combat. If you don't to it, you don't have it. I don't find what you are trying to do in this discussion, with broad assertions, palatable ... and barbarians who TWF have a use for a bonus action. Not every player Min Maxes like a GiTP discussion.

NautArch

@DanielZastoupil and you have to acdtively turn it on and spend a resource (bonus action) to do so.

Xirema

10:30 PM

@BESW Which is a fair observation.

Colin Gross

@BESW Are we going back to the orc discussion? Where they're the default enemy?

Daniel Zastoupil

A Bonus action that the Barbarian otherwise doesn't have a default method of using, outside of the once-per-combat Rage.

NautArch

@DanielZastoupil But that's going to be table dependent,. If you do the 15 minute adventuring day, it's not really an issue (unless you lose your rage by getting dropped or some other mechanic.)

Rubiksmoose

@BESW To be fair, had that been the original question I think there would be at least one less issue to muck around with. And I would agree with you about keeping it open until such time as the stack showed it couldn't handle it.

Daniel Zastoupil

And balance based on table dependency shouldn't be an argument for something to exist or not, since Warlocks and Wizards are heavily balanced based on the same argument, and both of them exist in the default rules.

Colin Gross

10:32 PM

@DanielZastoupil How many classes have unlimited bonus action abilities? I mean, if you don't have a shield, you can always off-hand attack with your bonus.

Daniel Zastoupil

But lets not pretend that the Barbarian's Rage is really getting in the way of all the Bonus Actions that the Barbarian was planning on using.

NautArch

@DanielZastoupil I disagree. The recommended use of multiple encounters IS a thing. If your table ignores that, then you have to deal with the fallout of that decision. But choosing not to do the recommended methodology doesn't mean that the assumptions on class building are wrong.

@DanielZastoupil Or if your table doesn't really take short rests because X. Now you've nerfed the Warlock.

MikeQ

@DanielZastoupil I kinda see where you're going with this. Since rages are a built-in class resource, it's not really for subclasses to mess with that resource allocation, whether that means having more of the resource, or some cheaper method of refreshing it. E.g. No caster subclasses that regain slots, no bard subclasses that regain inspiration, no sorc subclasses that regain sorcery points, etc.

KorvinStarmast

@DanielZastoupil a bit of "one true wayism" is creeping into this discussion and I am not sure you realize that you are doing that. So I'm going to step aside.

Xirema

@MikeQ Well. Land Druids get the "Arcane Recovery" feature that Wizards get that no other Druid archetypes have access to.

Daniel Zastoupil

10:34 PM

I'm not saying we need to dramatically shift everything in one direction or another. I'm saying that if there's a Barbarian who uses Long Rests, but not as much as the Wizard, and if there's a Barbarian who uses Short Rests, but not as much as the Warlock, then what's the balance concern?

If Wizards are on one end for Long Rests, and Warlocks are on the other end for Short Rests, is it really a rest-per-encounter problem as long as the homebrew falls between those two ends?

Xirema

Isn't there a type of Wizard that can recover spell slots spent on certain kinds of spells? Or was that a Homebrew/UA?

Daniel Zastoupil

Does it really matter if there's a short rest Barbarian?

Xirema

Oh, Divination Wizards.

> Beginning at 6th level, casting divination spells comes so easily to you that it expends only a fraction of your spellcasting efforts. When you cast a divination spell of 2nd level or higher using a spell slot, you regain one expended spell slot. The slot you regain must be of a level lower than the spell you cast and can't be higher than 5th level.

Daniel Zastoupil

Eldritch Knights and Battle Masters have those distinct differences, but they seem to work just fine.

Xirema

Just saying, some subclasses do have pretty drastic impacts on resource recovery. ;)

MikeQ

10:37 PM

@Xirema Alright, so I was wrong about the spells. So sue me.

@DanielZastoupil Justifications and balance aside, what does your proposed subclass do?

NautArch

@DanielZastoupil The balance there is total slots. Warlocks have fewer slots that refresh on a SR. Wizards have more slots but only refresh (exceptions...) on a Long Rest. YOu could build a SR Rage recovery mechanic, but you'd need to reduce the number of Rages. And then you're back in a similar boat of encounters/day being the mechanic that defines usefulness.

Xirema

@DanielZastoupil TBH, it all comes down to execution. Saying "I'm going to make Short rests recover Rages" might be broken, or it might not be. We'd need to see how the rest of the features interact with the mechanic.

KorvinStarmast

@NautArch Ki, SR recovery ... is this discussion intended to discuss re designing 5e? That might need its own chat room.

NautArch

@KorvinStarmast Heh :) no. I'm just raising that there is a reason for SR vs LR mechanics.

Daniel Zastoupil

@MikeQ Not 100% sure yet. I'm thinking of gaining some kind of benefit when your Rage ends.

Originally, I was thinking of maybe having a Rage effect that only lasts a single Round, but that breaks a lot of the Barbarian's default features, so a lot of them wouldn't make sense.

MikeQ

10:40 PM

21 mins ago, by Daniel Zastoupil

No, I'm looking to make a barbarian subclass that has reasons not to Rage. Make Rage feel like an actual resource rather than "approval to do a fight".

I am a confuse

Daniel Zastoupil

Sure, and then tag in some abilities that only occur when you're not raging.

Use rage as a temporary, calculated choice.

NautArch

@MikeQ In this proposal @DanielZastoupil, are you looking for a means other than more encounters to give a reason for the barbarian not to rage?

Daniel Zastoupil

Like Tenser's Transformation on a Wizard, or something.

Axoren

Alright, this is super pedantic

But does "affect" have a specific meaning in 5e?

Daniel Zastoupil

No, I'm trying to brainstorm ideas for a barbarian subclass homebrew that has more to consider regarding whether to Rage or not.

Axoren

10:43 PM

Because "affecting" a creature gets WEIRD with Illusion magic, I think

NautArch

@DanielZastoupil So you want to give something else that's powerful where they ahve to consider use X or Rage? Out of curiosity, at your table how many encounters/day?

KorvinStarmast

@Axoren I need to do a word search to answer that, and ponder each usage of that term.

Axoren

Like, scaring them with a Dragon's Roar illusion

I'm wondering if this is too vague for an actual question

But now I'm not sure what the intention was

KorvinStarmast

@Axoren might be a typo?

NautArch

@Axoren I think it's important to know what feature interaction you're considering.

Axoren

10:44 PM

No, it's not a typo

@NautArch Sanctuary.

8

Q: Does Sanctuary end if my Conjured Animals attack an enemy?

The sanctuary spell description states: If the warded creature makes an attack or casts a spell that affects an enemy creature, this spell ends. If I conjure 8 wolves with conjure animals, and they attack the enemy, is the enemy "affected" by the conjuration spell for the purposes of sanctu...

dnd-5e spells summoning

KorvinStarmast

OK, let me put a brain cell on that ...

Xirema

@DanielZastoupil Okay, so here's a thought: in Guildmaster's Guide to Ravnica, one of the Druid subclasses introduced (Circle of Spores) offers a new way to use the Wild Shape feature, where instead of shapeshifting into a creature, you instead use up a charge of the feature to instead manipulate the spores surrounding your body and gain various benefits.

Daniel Zastoupil

@NautArch Kinda. Rather than just leaving Rage the way it is, as a "turn it on and forget it" kind of ability, I want it to be something that the Barbarian actively chooses to use, chooses to maintain, and has valid reasons to not want to be raging 100% of the day.

Axoren

It's very similar, but can you scare the person who cast sanctuary, you're affecting them.

Xirema

Maybe if you want to have a Barbarian do something other than Rage, you introduce a similar mechanic, where you spend a use of Rage to do something that's a little different.

KorvinStarmast

10:45 PM

@Xirema As opposed to using a magical effect?

Axoren

Right.

Daniel Zastoupil

@Xirema The problem with that is working around the Barbarian's base class features they get at later levels.

Axoren

Okay, lol. That could have been directed at either of us

And it was a good follow up

KorvinStarmast

aaaaaaaaah, the old "effect" and "affect" choice raises its ugly head. It's a bugbear.

MikeQ

@DanielZastoupil I'm still confused. Which are you going for:
A) Another limited resource in addition to (and maybe mutually exclusive with) rage
B) Alternate ways of spending rage uses
C) More rages
D) Something else?

Xirema

10:46 PM

@DanielZastoupil What features do you think will be problematic in that regard? Druids get quite a few improvements to their Wild Shape ability as they level as well.

NautArch

@DanielZastoupil Okay, so the assumption is that there will be more rage opportunities than encounters. THat's a workable premise.

@Xirema I like this idea

Daniel Zastoupil

@MikeQ Why not both? I'm not looking for confirmation on my ideas, I'm literally trying to get some creativity involved with this. RPG Stack Exchange probably isn't the best place to go looking for "free will", but you guys are the best I got.

Jokes aside, you guys are pretty damn good at knowing what works and what doesn't.

KorvinStarmast

@Axoren OK, I am getting my mind right, and it is pedantic so of course we'll have a question on it. Standard day at the office ...

If this was easy, anybody could do it.

MikeQ

I think I've seen some homebrew attempts at the rager-caster, who has limited spell slots (usually EK progression). Sometimes the higher level features let them cast during a rage.

Axoren

@KorvinStarmast If cast Sanctuary, it's got this one clause right here that I'm thinking about: "If the warded creature makes an attack, casts a spell that affects an enemy, or deals damage to another creature, this spell ends."

Daniel Zastoupil

10:49 PM

Not too terrible, but it does step on the toes of something like the Bladesinger, where the Rage just becomes an "Oh Shit" button.

Axoren

Does casting Minor Illusion to make the sound of a Roaring Dragon, which ends up scaring an enemy, count for ending my Sanctuary?

Daniel Zastoupil

Cast spells all the time, until "Oh Shit", and then you activate your once-per-combat Rage/Bladedance and do melee combat.

Axoren

Is this good enough for a question?

MikeQ

@DanielZastoupil As is, if I have a barbarian/caster multiclass, that's exactly how I would treat rage. The "uh oh my spells won't get me out of this" button.

Axoren

Rage also works GREAT in an antimagic field.

KorvinStarmast

10:51 PM

@Xirema I like what you did with that prego answer. Nice job, I'll vote it up when I can vote again.

Axoren

Bonus points if you're angry about not being able to cast spells.

Daniel Zastoupil

Sure, but I'd like to find options that aren't just a Str/Damage Soak version of the Bladesinger.

KorvinStarmast

@Axoren I get the idea that 'doing damage' may be the underlying thought, but it's unclear.

Daniel Zastoupil

I do like the mention that @Xirema added with Spore Druid changing/enhancing Wild Shape.

Axoren

@KorvinStarmast But grappling and otherwise mezzing enemies doesn't qualify.

Daniel Zastoupil

10:52 PM

Doing something similar to Rage could work out.

KorvinStarmast

@Axoren Unclear, and open to a ruling on the spot. That's all I got.

Axoren

Do you think this is good enough for a question post?

KorvinStarmast

@Axoren I am not sure, because there are a lot of things that influence a PC that are not damage, like being feared or charmed. So those would seem to be affecting the target, as you have pointed out. I'd be interested to see the answers.

Axoren

Also, would lying to an NPC through the use of a spell count as affecting them?

Daniel Zastoupil

@Xirema I guess the only thing I have to watch out for is the level 15 feature, which causes your Rage to not end unless you want it to.

Which cuts out any option of a bursty-style of Rage.

Or, at least, any kind of 1-round Rage.

A few things I was thinking of:

MikeQ

10:56 PM

@DanielZastoupil Which is another reason I think this would do better as a feat than a subclass

KorvinStarmast

@okeefe We now discover that, only on the prime material plane, the first ever gelatinous cubes were made up of afterbirth harvested from half elves and half orcs (right after they were born) by agents of the Great Old One. More grossness soon as needed . (The githyanki won't put up with that crap on their home plane ...

Daniel Zastoupil

While raging, you lose health equal to your Barbarian level and gain that much temporary HP. While Raging this way, you can cast spells, and attacks with all weapons can use your Strength attribute for their attacks.

As a sort of Rage that uses your life energy rather than raw anger.

Later tacks on magical attacks while raging, and maybe even has some kind of rage aura. I wrote it lazily, but the damage you'd take from the rage ignores temporary hitpoints and cannot be reduced in any way.

MikeQ

Does that affect all uses of rage, or is it a voluntary "special" rage that the player chooses?

Daniel Zastoupil

That's a good question. I'd probably make it all uses of Rage.

MikeQ

In that case I don't see any reason to play the subclass. Just seems like an EK but with a weird drawback. If it's going to punish me for raging, I may as well go full EK and not worry about the complication.

Daniel Zastoupil

11:02 PM

I'd probably include your rage damage bonus to attacks with spells and ranged weapons, too. So it'd still be a lot like the EK, but allowed to go STR and still have decent range and dealing higher magic damage.

It'd be riskier, but overall higher damage, which feels a lot like how a Barbarian should be vs. a Fighter.

People will still choose the EK for consistency, but I think something like that would be a healthy, "wild mage" style alternative.

But let's assume that's a terrible idea for now. What else sounds good?

Axoren

@KorvinStarmast rpg.stackexchange.com/q/137294/14873

You said you might be interested

KorvinStarmast

@DanielZastoupil Beer. Beer sounds good. I am off to have a pint. Happy gaming all ...

MikeQ

@DanielZastoupil Would the subclass get its own spellcasting progression and spell slots?

KorvinStarmast

@Axoren It interests me, but I am out of votes today and I must now leave my keyboard and meet with some folks. Best wishes on that question ...

Daniel Zastoupil

@MikeQ What do you think? If it does, it's a pretty convoluted subclass. If it doesn't, the only thing it'd do at low levels is being able to use long range weapons (which, debatably, is still more than what the Zealot does).

Axoren

11:09 PM

@KorvinStarmast I don't think that separate question is a duplicate

It's narrower in scope and they are trying to discuss a specific case (separation of two ... 'creatures'???)

And Dopplegreener specifically told them to ask it as a new question because they changed scope

Well, at the very least, it's not a duplicate of the PREGNANCY question

But it might be more of a duplicate of the Gel Cube question

Where the intent was ALSO separation

Daniel Zastoupil

Another idea I had was having the Barbarian have a list of special spells that occur when they activate Rage. The lists come in two halves: Savagery and Sadism. Savagery spells activate as soon as you use Rage. Sadism spells also cast as soon as you choose Rage, but they have longer durations. You can only choose one Savagery and one Sadism spell each time you use Rage.

MikeQ

If I was writing this, I'd try to stick to 5E's simple design. 3rd lvl = EK spellcasting progression + use weapon as arcane focus, 6th lvl = can cast and concentrate during a rage, 10th lvl = add rage bonus to spell damage, 14th lvl = some other benefit. No trading spell slots for rages, or vice versa, because that breaks at 20th lvl.

Axoren

Spontaneous Casters are just Prepared Casters that can prepare all their spells. Prove me wrong.

Daniel Zastoupil

It doesn't have to be too terribly complex. I was just planning on Savagery spells to be things like Ensnaring Strike and Sadism spells to be long-term utility, like Jump or Longstrider.

So each time you Rage, you can cast one combat spell and one utility spell.

MikeQ

At 20th lvl, when they have unlimited rages, does that mean they get unlimited spells?

Daniel Zastoupil

11:15 PM

Moon Druids, yo.

GreySage

@Axoren Note that in 5e Spontanous Casters get fewer 'prepared spells' than Wizards do.

Daniel Zastoupil

And it'd be specific spells, from a specific list.

Axoren

@GreySage I prepare all the spells I know, now I'm a Spontaneous Caster

MikeQ

@Axoren I prepare spells I don't know. I'm a really spontaneous caster.

Axoren

I prepare all the spells YOU know. I'm a Mystic [homebrew/dandwiki]

Daniel Zastoupil

11:17 PM

@MikeQ If Moon Druids can have infinite HP, why can't a Barbarian have an infinite number of Zephyr Strikes that can only activate once per turn?

Axoren

I feel dirty.

MikeQ

20th level Moon Druids have theoretically infinitely refreshing HP. Once they're in their normal form and their HP drops to 0, they're at 0.

Daniel Zastoupil

Scratch that, it requires a bonus action to remove Rage, so it'd only be spammable once every other turn, with every second turn having the Barbarian be Rageless.

Which sounds fine.

MikeQ

That aside, there are no enforceable standards for homebrew content, no absolute metric of measuring balance. Personally I try to build subclasses around a theme or playstyle, and generally stay away from introducing new and complex subsystems.

Axoren

What are you guys even trying to do with a Barbarian Spellcaster?

Daniel Zastoupil

11:21 PM

In the same way that Moon Druids theoretically have infinite HP, except in their normal form. The barbarian ends up taking about 30-40% more damage doing this.

Axoren

If you want the defensive benefits of Barbarian, pick up Absorb Elements and quest for an Armor of Invulnerability.

Daniel Zastoupil

Wanted to make a Barbarian that had complexity to it and how it uses its Rage, but not in a way that mimics the Bladesinger.

The point of making a Homebrew, to me, is fillng a niche that hasn't been filled.

Axoren

So you want a Trance state-type-thing

That you can use on a per turn basis?

Daniel Zastoupil

Not necessarily. Just a tactical Barbarian who uses Rage as more than just "Hit Hard mode".

Whatever that ends up being, sure.

So if that's a trance state-type-thing, sure.

Axoren

Instead, make it charge based, then? Like surges of "Barbarism"?

So that you're not stuck in that state afterwards like a barbarian would

But I think this starts filling the role of a Bloodhunter

Daniel Zastoupil

11:25 PM

Thought of that. Like making a super Rage Punch that uses your reaction or bonus action and a single round? Except that completely breaks the level 15 and 20 features of the core Barbarian:

Axoren

Then at Level 15 and 20, give them something that differentiates them from Barbarian

Daniel Zastoupil

Level 15: Your Rages have no time limit. Level 20: You have infinite Rages.

But at that point, you're pulling away core parts of the base class, which no other class does.

Axoren

I see

So you want to make a homebrew ARCHTYPE

Not class

MikeQ

Subclass, yes. Primal path, archetype, we're using them interchangeably.

Daniel Zastoupil

Sorry, I said subclass earlier, but I might not have said that recently.

Even the Battle Master, which adds a feature unique to itself (Superiority Dice), adds maneuvers that aren't seen anywhere else in the game. Completely unorthodox compared to every other example of a subclass, yet it only ever adds to the base fighter.

I think it's a perfect example of how most homebrewery should be. Completely unique, fits a specific role, balanced better in some situations than others, but indisputably interesting and fun.

So I think whatever is made for the Barbarian needs to be a bit on the "eccentric" side.

The most interesting thing the Barbarians have going right now is a passive aura that does 1-2 things. Whoo.

The Paladin can get 2 auras by level 7, too.

MikeQ

11:32 PM

I'm more than happy to review a subclass or work in progress. I can't really help brainstorm from scratch, especially when I don't know what the goals are.

The Oracle

2

Q: Question editing rules and etiquette

If someone has edited another person's question in a way that, although perhaps beneficial overall, also introduces grammatical, spelling, or other errors, is it considered appropriate form to edit the question to fix those errors? And if so, what is the appropriate course of action when the cha...

discussion questions editing

Daniel Zastoupil

Ah, he left. Guess I bored him. Anyone willing to give me a hand?

Axoren

If you mean me, I'm thinking about it

It's hard

Daniel Zastoupil

Ah, sorry.

Yeah, I ran into a similar problem. The Bladesinger already covers a lot of what a casting Rage could already do.

Improved defense, better concentration saving throws (great for melee combat)

Which is why I think it might be better to throw out classic style casting altogether from the concept.

Which led me to my earlier mention, of a Barbarian who chooses specific spells to cast as they Rage.

Rather than just having a Barbarian who's Rage lets them cast any spells.

Axoren

How about if the barbarian had "Moments of Clarity" where they could put at Rage on Pause?

And you had a number of Moments of Clarity equal to half your daily rage value

Daniel Zastoupil

11:40 PM

Hmmm.....that's good.'

Sweet_Cherry

Hello!

Daniel Zastoupil

Make it a 1/3 caster, using the Ranger spell list, using Wisdom as their spellcasting modifier. You can activate your Moment of Clarity as a Bonus Action or a Reaction, and lasts until the start of your next turn. You can use the same Bonus Action or Reaction you spent for Clarity to cast a spell with the same casting time.

Later on, tack on the fact that when you use your Moment of Clarity feature, you also use the Dodge action.

So you can do some cool combos like Moment of Clarity, Zephyr Strike, maneuver around combat, and then start your next turn Raging and in the enemy's back line.

Ben

Morning all

trogdor

@Sweet_Cherry hello and welcome

Daniel Zastoupil

Or, Clarity, Absorb Elements, hit a poor sucker with your supercharged fire axe with a Reckless Attack next turn, doable since Absorb Elements doesn't use Concentration.

Ben

11:46 PM

@Sweet_Cherry How's it going?

Daniel Zastoupil

@Axoren That was a really solid idea.

Axoren

Took a while to think about it

Glad it works for you

Daniel Zastoupil

Was it a moment of clarity?

Axoren

Lol

Daniel Zastoupil

So I got 3 ideas to work with so far:
Barbarian that sacrifices HP for Temp HP, and in doing so, expands Rage to work with ranged attacks and spells.
Barbarian that has two special spell lists, one for combat spells and one for mobility buffs, that the barbarian can choose 1 from each of to cast when he begins his rage, and they stick until the Rage ends.
Barbarian that has a Ranger spell list and can temporarily remove Rage to cast a spell, and has several abilities that activate when doing so (like Dodge).

Should definitely be good enough to work on for now.

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