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12:04 AM
Grats
 
Ben
12:27 AM
@GreySage well done [sensible applause]
 
It's the Lameacolypse! Jog for your lives?
Or maybe just a few minutes of your time
Or your health
Whatever reason you want really
 
Ben
The fires are a little concerning... Clive Palmer is... well... He's another one of those "Look at what I can do with all my money"-type fellows.
But Knickers is a beast of glory
 
1:15 AM
@Ben if he wants to waste his money in such a dumb way I say let him
 
Ben
Is it bad to want it to sink? Lol
 
Yeah I think it is
But I sort of want it to sink too
As long as no one drowns or freezes to death this time
Or is erased for dareing to survive it
Basically I want him to immediately lose his investment but not get anyone else hurt XD
 
Ben
Yes. I don't want the chaos of last time. It's purely in spite of Palmer... So, like if it sank right out of the bay, and like, the hull buckled or something
 
And maybe next time he can make an inoffensive theme park or something
@Ben Lol
 
Ben
@trogdor ...
 
1:18 AM
What?
He's still gonna be rich and bored right?
Sheesh
 
@Ben oh$-&$- me fine
Maybe he deserves all his money to just mysteriously burn
Happy? XD
 
Ben
Hahaha
When you said it I wasn't sure if you knew or not haha
 
I didn't
This always seems to happen
I say something incredibly esoterically ironic and don't even know it is or why it is
I wish I did
I would look so freaking smart and funny and witty
Or at least like I was making an effort
XD
It's amusing after the initial embarrassment though
I literally just had to stop myself from laughing like an idiot at work
 
Ben
Hahahaha
If anything I see it as a joke on Palmer.
 
1:27 AM
Fair enough
I just can't help remembering all the accidentally funny or ironic (sometimes but not always both) things I have said
Some of which are in this chat somewhere in the archives
Not sure on the numbers but I sort of feel like it's disproportionately happened right here in these RPG chats
 
1:42 AM
I could be wrong there, but I'm definitely more talkative here than I typically am in meatspace
So it could also be correct due to sheer volume
 
hey there @unicornturtle, welcome to the RPG.SE lair :)
 
2:26 AM
hey there @nitsua60
 
2:56 AM
@Shalvenay hiya
How's the week going? Recovering from T-day (metaphorical) hangover?
 
3:08 AM
@nitsua60 heheh, still have a turkey of our own to eat here. hoping to catch you on Discord for a bit, got another pesky no-votes DIY.SE answer that I am looking for suggestions on
 
3:34 AM
I was just reading through the pinned meta about HNQ. I don't follow this issue very closely, but does anyone know if it was suggested that we could ban particular tags from HNQ? I ask because of dopplegreener's observation that the problems tend to show up on social questions.
 
@Shalvenay spinning up discord....
@JoelHarmon that hasn't been specifically discussed on meta.rpgse, best I know. It's not a capability that HNQ currently has, so it'd have to be proposed on meta.se and developed stack-wide. I don't recall it being mentioned on meta.se, either, but I haven't followed all those discussions of HNQ over the years as closely as I follow ours.
 
@nitsua60 The other thing I haven't seen in this discussion is actual data, such as average number of deleted or negative-voted answers. It occurred to me that most of the complaints are anecdote-based. While I don't mean to discount that experience, I'm curious to see what the data can tell us.
 
Ben
Is "opening one's mind" metaphorical or figurative?
 
@Ben As in the Apocalypse World move "Open Your Brain"?
 
3:52 AM
Are you a mind flayer?
 
Ben
Lol
As in response to thought processes
 
Question expertly dodged mindflayer
 
I'm not sure why it couldn't be both metaphorical and figurative.
 
XP
 
@Ben Did you see my post about scheduling for the roll20 thing
 
Ben
4:07 AM
@MikeQ I did, and I responded :)
I pretty much repeated what you said though haha
@JoelHarmon I was thinking similarly
 
@Ben Cool, thanks. Do you think you'll get a chance to fill in the character sheet?
 
Ben
@MikeQ I did, yeah
I made him a tiefling
I thought I'd given him a name... though apparently not yet
I was thinking Alexander, or maybe Jacob
 
@Ben Ok, I'll switch over to the roll20 chat. I can give you the discord link from there.
 
4:51 AM
So somebody asked me if I had a RAW + real physics time travel method yet. Well, no I don't. The gulf between relativistic travel and time travel is just too great.
 
Ben
5:12 AM
@MikeQ Let me know when you do, because I'll have to manually check for the notification haha
 
@Ben You're listed as one of the players, but you need to join the game in order to see stuff and fill in the sheet
 
Ben
@MikeQ in Roll20 or discord?
 
roll20. The game has character sheet templates. I set up one for each player.
 
@trogdor That's called "recruiting" ;)
 
Ben
@MikeQ All I can see is the testing grounds lol
 
5:16 AM
@KorvinStarmast but that's a little like "recruiting" for a prison
 
Ben
roll20 is new to me haha
 
Ok somewhere on the page is a big pink button that says "Launch Game"
 
@trogdor Not really. the more you recruit, the more people you have in your place rather than somewhere else. That they are unhappy, or not, isn't your concern in that case. You just want some (or as many as you can get) "on your side" or "in your place" It's a pretty simple concept.
 
Ben
@MikeQ Right. Gotcha
That link is expired
 
@trogdor beyond that, I'll only suggest that one take to the Stack with the name "Christianity" questions along those lines. You might be surprised at the questions and answers. Also, a really good site is called Biblical Hermeneutics. People who try and take the original languages and contexts and make sense of them. Some good stuff there.
@trogdor This place. I really like it.
@Ben I see you inthe roll20 game ...
 
Ben
5:42 AM
@KorvinStarmast I am indeed
 
@KorvinStarmast eh I don't personally see much reason to walk on in there
I'm mainly an RPG SE guy
 
6:28 AM
Mornin'
 
Ben
Afternoon
 
6:51 AM
The longer commute is a surprisingly taxing thing
 
 
2 hours later…
8:27 AM
@MikeQ I really appreciate this answer you made
 
8:40 AM
> reproduction does not fall under the crafting rules
 
9:33 AM
@BESW you had to say this right after I finished the episode of Star Trek TNG where Data builds himself a kid
XD
 
 
I thought it was pretty funny too
 
 
4 hours later…
2:06 PM
What the heck is up with the voting on these answers?! None of these answers appear to me to meet our quality standards. Why are people upvoting them?
Ah it is a HNQ so that might explain it.
 
@Rubiksmoose [avoids eye contact]
Although I've made a substantial edit to my answer and have undeleted--would be curious what you think now.
 
@Rubiksmoose If you put in an answer I'll downvote it if that makes you happier about the situation. ;-Þ
 
@ColinGross hahaha thanks buddy.
 
I'm here for you. And coffee. But a little bit for you too. Mostly Coffee.
Speaking of which... where is the coffee?
 
@nitsua60 Reading through it now! My first thought was can you express the conclusion at the end in even plainer language for those whose stats skills are rusty/nonexistant? That is just based on a quick reading. I'm rereading and thinking.
 
2:21 PM
@T.J.L. a typo!!! [falls to knees]
 
@kviiri I mean, they're asking about a system with egregiously, if not criminally, too many rules. I need to cover as many bases as I can. It's not entirely far-fetched to imagine a splat book that mentions, like, genetic engineering and how magic factors into it.
 
@nitsua60 Actually I think you might be good. I was reading the lasst line as saying power divided by utility and I was trying to figure out how that would even work and what it meant loll
Definitely the best answer out there by far.
 
@Rubiksmoose I don't understand the question. It seems like there's an X-Y problem.
 
@trogdor Reading and searching topics might be well, in terms of lurking, if some of that stuff interests you.
 
@NautArch It seems pretty straight forward to me. What part is confusing to you?
 
2:26 PM
@Rubiksmoose I guess I don't understand why it's helpful to understand the relationship of the naming convention.
What are you doing with it that the existing rarities and mechanics aren't providing.
 
@NautArch well rarity and power are supposed to be correlated according to the DMG
 
@Rubiksmoose Sure, but if they are aren't, how does that affect your gaming?
 
When homebrewing items for example, it would be good to know if this were true when trying to accurately determine a rarity for example. And, as a DM, I would find it very useful information to know how much to actually pay attention to rarity when awarding items as well
 
@Rubiksmoose But if you're homebrewing the item to give, why does the rarity matter?
rarity has no mechanical application except for price. ANd you're homebrewing your item, so can determine it's own price based on your own world.
 
@NautArch Well price is certainly one aspect. And I think that rarity is basically the only guideline they give for determining price. Taking that away and just saying "spitball something" doesn't seem like the best idea right?
Aren't the loot awarding items often indicated by rarity?
Like in a horde the book will often tell you to put in a few items of X rarity. Also, aren't there guidlines for how much loot/items a party should have also indicated by rarity?
 
2:32 PM
@Rubiksmoose I'm honestly not sure. The DMG's guide on creating an item only gives guidance for spell levels, bonuses, and kind of attunement. There still isn't much help in determining rarity of an item, so i'm not sure how this question helps resolve that in any way.
@Rubiksmoose They are, but again if you're homebrewing you're bypassing that.
The hordes and rolls mix items of various rarities depending on the roll.
The treasure tables don't list what rarities they're covering but are organized by CRvalue.
 
@NautArch Why would you bypass that? If I homebrew an item the only way I can determine its value is by comparing it against other items and placing it in the appropriate cost tier. Sure I could just make up a number but then how do I keep it consistent between items? That is the whole purpose of having a rarity.
 
@Rubiksmoose If you're homebrewing an item, you've already decided what you want it to do. Assigning it a rarity helps how?
But then the DMG also recommends tweaking an existing or comparing against existing rather than a strict hierarchy based on a known mechanic.
other than spell level/bonus.
 
@NautArch Assigning a value to it, determining how valuable it is compared to other items, figuring out how much more or little I should give the party based on it, etc.
 
@Rubiksmoose okay, so the only time value comes in is if the party is selling it, right? And you have control over that. Yes, some guidance is nice - but it's not necessarily tied to a specific mechanic.
 
@NautArch Or buying. I've played with parties including my current one where buying items is allowed.
 
2:37 PM
Sure, but then it's homebrew and you can make up the price you think you want it bought for. If you've homebrewed something, youc learly want your players to have it. Value will be dependent on the buying power of the party.
 
But not only then either. If I have an NPC give (or sell) the party an item, I would like a measure of how good that item is so as to be able to accurately divy up loot without over/under powering them.
 
@nitsua60 I know. You monster! :)
 
@NautArch And by what measure should I determine that price?
 
Sure, but we've also established that the known rarities don't make a lot of sense - so how you're wanting to take a flawed system and make it so you can apply new things to it?
@Rubiksmoose Your world, your party. Economies are personal.
 
@NautArch But that is exactly what the question is asking! We haven't established anything. The question is trying to establish that.
 
2:39 PM
@Rubiksmoose Even before that, can the item even be bought or sold. Selling powerful magic items generally attracts the kind of attention that might make the sale a quest in itself.
 
That is exactly why the question is useful. If the system is flawed that is pertinent information and as a DM I would likely not use the system.
@NautArch Sure economies are personal but you also try to keep them consistent. And that again is where having a measure of cost/power helps.
 
@Rubiksmoose Or at least a reference implementation with some assumptions stated up front, and maybe some notes about how it is expected to play out.
Wasn't there a "sane magical prices" homebrew list that was pretty well received?
or at least widely distributed.
 
@Rubiksmoose okay, but now we're getting into the why it's important - which is what a question should really be about. Right now, this feels like they're looking for a solution but don't have a specific problem. ANd we're trying to provide solutions without solving a problem.
@ColinGross I saw that and I"m not a huge fan. SOme seem really really low. Like if they're for a very high magic world, it'd be reasonable, but a lot of the potions are just a couple hundred gold. You could seriously stock up and get very powerful for very little (even if it's just for a short time.)
 
@NautArch The prices don't make mention of availability. That's a different issue.
 
@ColinGross Would you say that's an issue of...rarity?
:D
 
2:45 PM
@ColinGross check out Nits' answer on that question.
 
@NautArch They could be reasonably common, but unavailable for purchase. Especially in the case of weaponry. That sort of thing is usually horded by states and the like. Sure the kingdom has a few dozen necklaces of fireball... but the players aren't in a position to purchase them.
 
@ColinGross I'm not sure that something be can be reasonably common but unavailable for purchase. it's not common then. SOmething cheap and common here, becomes rare and expensive somewhere that it's not available.
 
@NautArch well that is just us diverging from the topic at hand. The question of "Is an item's power tied to its rarity?" seems perfectly valid and straightforward. Just like a question of "Does the CR of an enounter correlate with its difficulty?" might be
 
@NautArch True. Could be rare for the market. An example would be the artificially low availability of diamonds that is kept that way by a monopoly on the sources.
 
@Rubiksmoose That's fine. I just prefer questions to have a clear goal. If the goal is how do I determine rarity, that seems like the real question.
 
2:48 PM
@NautArch Wouldn't that just get marked as duplicate?
 
@ColinGross exactly (and also why party of why I refuse to buy diamonds...sorry wifey.)
@ColinGross duplicate of what?
 
@NautArch The goal here is to acquire information which seems like an appropriate end to try to achieve. They have this game mechanic and aren't sure of its purpose or meaning. So they are asking about it.
@NautArch And I also think that is not at all the goal of the question.
 
@Rubiksmoose Sure, but if their question is really how do I determine rarity of a homebrew item generally - that's a much more useful question then asking about the relationship between one aspect of an item and it's rarity.
SO let's say it's determined that rarity IS a function. How is that helping an end goal of determining rarity? It isn't really helping understand how you us it, what part it plays, what other parts are important.
And those are all the thigns you need to put together a rarity for a homebrew item.
 
@NautArch but that's not their question at all lol
 
@Rubiksmoose And i'm questioning what their actual question is.
 
2:51 PM
@NautArch I feel like I see a number of "what should the rarity of this item be?" posts a month.
 
and what purpose it serves.
 
@NautArch What if it's just morbid curiosity?
 
@ColinGross THen that's fine, but I don't think it's a good question.
 
@NautArch Does rarity correlate with power?
 
@Rubiksmoose Yes, that's their question. But my question is "to what end""
 
Ben
2:53 PM
@NautArch in tonight's game, I had to "Koolaid" my way through a doorway because I had used a potion of growth, and was too big to fit through a 5' door. lol
 
Power needs to be defined or contextualized. The "computer game DPS" model of assessment is evident in comments. Might be best to VtC as unclear until what power means is defined by the querent; the devs certainly don't
 
@Ben hahahaha, nice! Did you say "Oh, yeah!" as you did it?
 
@NautArch Does the knowing the motivation change your opinion of the quality of the question?
 
Ben
@NautArch I did, in Minotaur.
 
@KorvinStarmast I see very little evidence of any kind of rigid analysis in the answers actually. Nits' excluded.
 
2:55 PM
@ColinGross Not really. For a lore question that's fine, but for a mechanical question I prefer to have a reason for the information.
 
@Rubiksmoose The question needs to be better scoped / defined IMO. it's not a bad question, per se, but I think what "power" means needs to be spelled out.
 
@MikeQ Yea yea! i think you're absolutely right there
 
@NautArch As a DM it helps me to know this information for the reasons I've stated above. I see the information here as worthy of exploration in and of itself. They see an assumption and they are trying to assess if that assumption is valid or not.
 
We put people through the wringer on home brew and optimization questions in terms of scope. Why is this being given a pass?
 
Ben
@MikeQ @Shalvenay @KorvinStarmast @goodguy5 when did we decide we were going to have our session?
 
2:57 PM
@Rubiksmoose Maybe that's what they're doing. Maybe they're just curious. Maybe they want to see how long we'll chat about it here?!
 
@MikeQ Whenver mike says it is.
 
^
I haven't seen a poll yet
 
@Ben I am guessing in about 36 hours from now, ish?
 
I was waiting on you @goodguy5
 
oh, really? I didn't see the link. I'm sorry
 
2:58 PM
@KorvinStarmast I'm not quite convinced that defining power is a burden OP should have for this question honestly.
 
Ben
@KorvinStarmast Right. That's better than 12 hours lol... I forgot my original char sheet which I need to finish my Roll20 sheet haha.
 
@Rubiksmoose Seems like a reasonably request to the OP. They can punt on it just as easily.
 
@ColinGross And they have "* If definition of item's power is needed, use the same definition that is applicable to these words in DMG p135."
Which I think it completely fair.
But I also see @KorvinStarmast's point
 
@Rubiksmoose Rarity is a broad category, not a narrow one. The question has an XY problem. As I don't have my DMG to hand, I will not even begin to try to answer until much later today qhen i have DMG and Xanathar's in front of me.
 
@MikeQ how should I answer?
 
3:01 PM
I tried to illustrate that broad category aspect in the answer to Nathan's question about the bow.
 
@KorvinStarmast I read that as "have a dead man's gun and Xanathar's barrel aged bourbon" in front of me.
 
@KorvinStarmast Sure but that is a problem with the book not the question right?
 
@Rubiksmoose I absolutely do, since this is not a CRPG, it is a TTRPG ...
 
You are kind of asking the querent to solve the problem in the question as it is.
 
@Rubiksmoose Does the book weigh as much as a duck? If so, it's a witch!
 
3:02 PM
@Rubiksmoose If by power they mean "DPR" then say it. If by Power they mean "more spell levels" tghen say it. Etc. Define what they mean. (And yes, the devs didn't. I think that was purposeful)
 
@ColinGross its made of.... wood?
 
@goodguy5 I think the book is made of ... churches... possibly small rocks.
 
@ColinGross Heck yeah, especially the bourbon
 
@KorvinStarmast hmmm but they don't mean DPR. Power is going to be an amalum of different measures of an item's utility.
 
@Rubiksmoose This is a homebrew question, at its root. That elf tear thing. It is also a "is this OP" kind of question, which we encourage people to better define most of the time.
@Rubiksmoose The burden is on the asker, IMO, to scope the question even if the devs wrote some non scoped stuff for their own reasons..
 
3:06 PM
@KorvinStarmast Ok let's clean the slate a bit and let me postulate a hypothetical new question to ask and see what you think:
> The DMG says "Rarity provides a rough measure of an item's power relative to other magic items." But I have seen plenty examples of questions and answers (example A, B, C, D) on here showing that this does not appear to always be the case. Is this book quote incorrect? How can you explain the perceived discrepancies in rarity and perceived power?
 
> "rough"
 
^
 
@Yuuki Right right. that would be a valid answer of course. I'm asking @KorvinStarmast specifically if I need to define power myself in that question.
 
2. we transitioned from a system with 11 points (1..10 and artifact). down to a 5-point system
that's going to cause discrepancies in quality
3. the basically 10-point system had mechanics that could not be directly translated and had to be reconfigured. which causes further discrepancies in power translation
 
3:25 PM
@goodguy5 @ben @KorvinStarmast @Shalvenay ok I proposed a time
 
where?
 
@Rubiksmoose Yes, you do.
 
@KorvinStarmast Would asking what the DMG means by "power" be a valid question?
 
@ColinGross Sure, but only Jeremy or Mike would be in a position to answer IMO.
 
@KorvinStarmast Why is that?
 
3:32 PM
@KorvinStarmast interesting.
 
@ColinGross And we also go back to the "in theory, you can play this game 1-20 without having to acquire magical weapons" is juxtaposed with XGtE explanation that from 1-20 a party can expect to trip over 100 items, consumable and fixed, as shown on that table.
Because "power" is a situational attribute: it is powerful as an effect to banish a cloud giant, but that's because of its collateral effect in the battle being fought against the could giant's allies, who are hill giants.
Power: to heal and keep the barbarian in the fight.
Power: to raise the dead
Power, to go to the astral plane
Magical power that keeps all magical things out (AMF)
Power to stun, using Ki, as a monk.
Power is situational
 
@KorvinStarmast here's where I would disagree there though. The book wrote the rule. The book organized items according to the rule. I should I really have to define what the book meant when I ask a question about it?
 
It is a broad term, so that question by not clarifying what the asker means by power is too broad.
That rule isn't a piece of computer code, I suggest not treating it as such.
 
@KorvinStarmast Obligatory OotS:giantitp.com/comics/oots0657.html
 
@KorvinStarmast Are all broad terms only answerable by JC or MM ?
 
3:35 PM
You are using "rule" badly here, IMO.
 
Fwiw, I'm just trying to figure things out, not be combative here.
 
@goodguy5 on the roll20 game forum, a post titled scheduling
I suggested 7pm EST
 
@KorvinStarmast that's fair. Guideline?
 
@ColinGross No, but when you look at how broad the magical rarity categories are in the first place, only their perspective on why they did that answers the confusion without a better definition of power.
@Rubiksmoose Yessir, guideline. (Pirates for the win!)
 
@MikeQ oh, I was looking in the chat lol
 
3:38 PM
@Rubiksmoose I've said enough, so that question will proceed on without me
 
@KorvinStarmast I don't have a problem with the breadth of the categories. Where I have a problem is when the DMG has rare items strictly inferior to uncommon (boots of levitation vs. flying is the classic example) and describes rarity as a measure of power. Rarity could just have been a setting thing--I'm fine with "there just aren't as many of these things--that's no indication of how powerful they are." But (as is often the case) it feels like they're cramming too many gerbils into one skull.
 
Sword of Self-Stabbing (very rare because weaponsmiths usually die testing these)
 
@KorvinStarmast No worries! thanks for humoring me and discussing.
@nitsua60 How many gerbils are too many though? I'll admit I've never thought about gerbil to skull ratios before
 
3:55 PM
@nitsua60 Two things I have noticed. Items "drop" with a lot of overlap in terms of "when versus rarity" rating; and each category is very broad in terms of top to bottom desirability. (And then we look at RoP (rare) versus Cloak of P ... uncommon... that do the same thing)
@nitsua60 general "power" seems to have been tied to tiers of advenature, though, as in "where this item's power level (whatever the heck that means) fits into the tiers of adventure scheme" ... and I don't disagree with your points on boots/broom/etc
@nitsua60 heh, a broom of flying just dropped and our gnome (4th level, arcane trickster) is already having a ball with it in my brother's campaign.
@kviiri They are usually made by Clerics of the Forge domain. Healing on the spot is available. :)
 
@KorvinStarmast My 16th-level sharpshooter found that flying through the Tomb of Horrors was much preferable to walking =)
 
@nitsua60 (Once again a distinct class of problem that Pathfinder 2e attempts to solve - there's a rarity track parallel to everything else about items/spells/etc: Common/Uncommon/Rare/Unique, where the rarity is just the default and has no actual bearing on power - e.g. Longsword vs Katana have the exact same stats, but Katana is Uncommon)
 
@Delioth In my world boots of levitation are rare because they're so underpowered. "Who makes boots of levitation!? Haven't you ever heard of boots of flying!?"
 
@nitsua60 The command word for the magic broom is 'Boing.' (And we checked, it is not Boeing).
 
@Delioth So it's somewhat similar to the narrative tags that are common in PbtA games?
 
4:00 PM
@nitsua60 Sometimes, all you want is an elevator, not a helicopter.
 
@kviiri Maybe? They're super non-intrusive (with Weapons they're a different table, with spells and such they're just the coloring of the spell's name/level). I don't know if that's similar - but there are some features that give you explicit access to uncommon items and such, but it's expressly not tied to power
I have a hunch that rarity values are mostly there for Organized Play
So that they can say only Common items are available by default, Uncommon might be given out as rewards for single PFS sessions, Rare might only be given out at e.g. the end of a season, and Unique never come out. As a help to avoid some super-unique cheesy stuff like Blood Money ending up everywhere (so that the spell explicitly has a note that it only exists 1 place and may break a game, even if it's not overpowered, just paradigm-shifting)
 
@Delioth Narrative tags are pretty much just clues to the GM and players how items should work in the narrative and be reacted to by NPCs
Eg. a gun with the tag valuable doesn't have any special rules per se, but any NPC had better have a very good reason for not being interested in it
Similarly, using an Uncommon weapon might prompt the GM to describe NPCs being curious about it
 
4:39 PM
So half-dragon is a template. Does that mean you can have a half-dragon dragon?
 
Depends on the version of RPG you're using
At least in D&D 3.5e, IIRC it's a template that can be applied to "any living creature"
 
@Yuuki you can be half of a lot of things
 
@Yuuki If you are talking about 3.x RAW, then yes.
 
5:02 PM
@Yuuki Only if there is a special ability tagged "recursion" in the monster write up.
 
I'm not sure that this is POB. It seems to me that the rules are using a word and it is fair to ask what the rules mean by that word. Even if the answer is: "the rules don't specify" it seems like this question is still very much answerable. I don't see where the opinion comes in as long as we stick to our answering guidelines as usual. — Rubiksmoose 7 mins ago
Can anybody help me see what I'm not seeing?
 
@Rubiksmoose It very much does seem like it's unclear how Power is defined (by both the designers and therefore by OP.)
 
I voted unclear rather than pob
 
Otherwise it means that the designers aren't following their Power system or we simply don't undestand it's nuances.
 
@NautArch I think you may be thinking about the other question.
 
5:06 PM
@Rubiksmoose ah, yes. Although that seems very close to a duplicate...
likely just highly related, but they're ultimately very similar.
 
@NautArch I would agree they are related. Not dupes.
I don't see any close reason for it though that seems valid to me.
 
@Rubiksmoose Yeah, I agree. I don't see a close reason other than it may be Designer Intent.
 
I guess if you read it in such a way that the answer is "the rules do not provide any definition of relative power and nor does it seem possible to reverse engineer a consistent definition in that context from the examples we have" then it's okay
 
Although even then, it isn't.
the answer is more "it's not stated"
 
You can argue it isn't the best, most useful question (and thus downvote) but nothing worht a VtC
 
5:08 PM
I admit I read it and came away with the question "What does powerful mean"
 
@Carcer bingo
 
@NautArch Developers rate Power by how many times they can swing the item and yell "pow!" before their arms get tired or they get bored.
 
I guess I probably wouldn't have VtC'd if it didn't have 4 votes on it already
 
@Carcer yeah that is what I was thinking.
 
@Carcer I voted to reopen
 
5:09 PM
Same.
 
hm. Yes, I think I'll VtR too
 
@Yuuki Reminds me of a classic math puzzle where a brick weighs half a kilogram plus half its own weight
 
hah
of course dragons are half-dragons
the other half is dragon too
 
No, it's dragon half because if one half is dragon and the other half is dragon too, then we have 2.5 dragons in one body.
 
So is the answer to the brick puzzle 1.65 lbs?
oh, no wait. 1 kg. I was doing it backwards.
 
5:15 PM
One of the more(less?) obvious magic item comparables is Ring of Protection vs Cloak of Protection. Both do the same thing, but one is Uncommon and one is Rare.
 
@JohnP Wait, isn't the limit just 1 in this case? I thought the limit for the halving sequence was (initial * 2)
 
@NautArch So what you're saying is that cloak is fashioned from poorly made leather because there's still bits of raw beef stuck to it?
 
@Yuuki Look at you with your fancy leather beef cloak.
 
@JohnP The answer should be 2
 
@Delioth I dunno, it's been so long since I did maths.
The time meta answer I erased above is my first attempt at a riddle of any kind in over a decade.
 
5:19 PM
@Delioth Why are you using limits and sequences? It's a simple algebra problem.
 
x = 1 + x/2 -> 2x = 2 +x -> x=2
 
Oh dang I was right with 2 kg.
 
@Rubiksmoose x = 1/2 + x/2
(assuming we're measuring in kilograms, not half-kilograms for some reason)
 
@GreySage wait why?
 
yeah, x = 0.5 + x/2 solves to x = 1, not x = 2
 
5:24 PM
@Rubiksmoose Because it weighs half a kg + x/2
 
@GreySage hah! missed that entirely
 
x = 1/2kg + x/2 -> x = 1kg
 
Yup so that is correct
 
Units matter :)
 
that they do. For some reason I just read it as "a kg" instead of 1/2
 
5:28 PM
@GreySage What if it's "half <a kilogram and half its own weight>" and not "<half a kilogram> and half its own weight"?
2/3 kgs then, I think.
 
@Yuuki Then x = 1/2(1 + x/2) -> 3x = 2 -> x = 2/3, yeah
 
What about half a kilogram, plus half its weight, plus half that halved weight, plus half that halved weight, plus half that halved weight, plus...
 
@Xirema You eventually form a black hole that way.
 
@JohnP I think that infinite series converges, doesn't it?
 
(I think that results in something like x == 1/2 + x, or 0 == 1/2)
 
5:34 PM
@Yuuki I dunno. Maths again. I used to be good at it, but haven't used it in 20 years. Now my only math is calculating pot odds in poker and progressions in roulette :p
 
@Yuuki It does converge, but it results in a riddle that reads like "the brick's weight is equal to half a kilogram, plus the brick's weight".
 
@Yuuki I don't think it converges, since in each step you are adding a little more than 1/4 to the weight, and that amount only grows (albeit very slowly).
 
@Xirema Soooo.... we're in space?
 
@GreySage Nah, it's 1/2 + x/2 + x/4 + x/8 + x/16 + x/32, which is just 1/2 + x. Converges, but is whatever that fancy mathematical word for an inconsistent expression is.
 
@Xirema Yeah, I was interpreting the "half that halved weight" to be something else, I think you're right
 
5:38 PM
Oh, turns out the term is just "inconsistent".
So yeah, it's an Inconsistent Equation.
 
x = 1/2 + x
Which means everything is true!
 
Seriously, though, anyone here into word puzzles?
 
@GreySage Also, I think the other way is just 1/2 + x/2 + 1/4 + x/4 + 3/8 + 3x/8 + 7/16 + 7x/16 + 15/32 + 15x/32 + 31/64 + 31x/64...
I don't know if that converges or not. My instinct is that it does.
Wait, no.
You're basically adding 1/2 + x/2 over and over.
So no, that does not converge.
 
@MikeQ Isn't that just playing a group of Ferengi in the Star Trek RPG?
 
@GreySage If we're in space, then the weight of the brick is zero and the weight of half a kilogram is also zero. Therefore, 0 = 0 + 0/2.
 
5:43 PM
@Xirema I think that's what I was thinking
 
@Yuuki No. The weight of the brick is still the same. It's just the lessened effect of gravity.
 
@Yuuki Depends on whether you're using Weight or weight, the former being an expression of the force exerted on an object by the local gravitational field you position as the origin, and the latter being a colloquialism we use to express an object's mass.
 
@Yuuki I honestly hate how we have 2 base measurements of how heavy something is, and they are actually measuring two completely different things, and they are used interchangeably here on Earth.
 
@JohnP Weight != mass.
@GreySage English, man.
Pretty sure it was invented by aliens.
 
English was invented by taking French, German, Spanish, Dutch, Irish, Latin, and a variety of other dead, pointless languages and smashing them all together haphazardly.
 
5:46 PM
I wish more people used "massive" to describe mass, instead of just meaning 'big'
 
@GreySage that...would be a massive undertaking. ::snerk::
 
@JohnP Xp
 
@GreySage The state in which Boston resides is quite massive.
 
Whoever coined the term "mass" to mean the substance of something should have used a different word.
 
@GreySage Yeah, keep that prayer going. ::snerk again::
 
5:52 PM
@JohnP All I want is an unambiguous language, is that really too much to ask?
 
@GreySage It really is. It would be massively inconvenient.
 
@GreySage Too much in price? Effort? Keep it coming, gotta lotta moah.
@GreySage - I do agree, though, English (especially American English) is a very messy language.
 
@JohnP Spanish is just as bad (in a different way). Masa can mean mass (measurement), mass (a group of things), dough, or ground (as in grounding electrical equipment).
 
@GreySage erg. I still remember all the different forms depending on formal, informal, single, group...although I don't remember much Spanish any more.
 
@GreySage An unambiguous language has the distinct weakness of being unable to convey ambiguity.
 
6:01 PM
@Yuuki What are you trying to say there?
 
@Yuuki Then our poetry and prose can be in English, but our daily conversation and science should be done in this Ideal Language.
 
@GreySage Unambinglish
 
@GreySage @Yuuki - You could always make your own.
 
@GreySage Jargons, like "aviation jargon" and "military jargon" I find solves some of those problem for those who use them on a daily basis.
(For non habitual users all they do is add confusion ...)
 
@KorvinStarmast Good point
 
6:06 PM
@GreySage Its limited application does not help fulfill the need you have identified. :(
 
6:25 PM
@KorvinStarmast is that time too early or too late?
 
@MikeQ For me, too early if it is a problem. but I am working on it
 
@KorvinStarmast This was not sufficiently close asking what the DMG means by "power" to be a valid question? rpg.stackexchange.com/questions/136571/…
 
6:39 PM
@ColinGross fwiw it has been reopened.
 
6:58 PM
@Rubiksmoose I actually don't think the question is worth much, but since defining "power" has been requested in response to other inquiries, I thought it might be interesting to see what turns up.
Even if it is, "this is unknowable and here's why"
 
@ColinGross I think there is value in it.
 
Then subsequent questions about stuff predicated on calculating the relative power of an item can be directed back to this one.
 
@ColinGross mhm
 
@Rubiksmoose Is it pedantic value?
 
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