200 words is not very much at all lol

Yeah, you gotta find a subject that fits the shape you've been given.

That's something I have to re-learn all the time in my job.

And with 200-word RPGs, often the key is finding a mechanic that's simple to explain but creates complexity in action.

@BESW Sounds easy to say, but in execution ... heh. (Isn't roll for shoes within the 200 word limit?) PS, hope you can help the question on r20 macros; I fiddled a bit with his macro and I am not sure what the full question of "what is needed to fix the problem" is. (A friend has written some r20 scripts for 5e, I will ask if he'll chime in if we get no other assistance. )

Just under 150.

It did very well.

I know how he can do it in 4e, but outside of that I'm clueless right now.

The template:default documentation is opaque to me so far.

Of course, he was just in an industrial accident, and he's laid up for a few days ... so he may have time.

A quick glance tells me that the 5e character sheet has built-in "critical" calls, though, probably similar to 4e's.

I am stil in "crawl" stage in r20 "messing around with this" and I have to have quiet time to play with it. Rare.

So somebody familiar with the 5e template calls can probably help.

I think we have a few folks who can help... in time

Took me a while to like the new sheet, but I finally do.

But I'm not gonna spend my Roll20 learning time with 5e. I just got 4e under my belt and now I wanna get familiar with how to hack the template:default for Fate.

Fate of Agaptus, here I come.

OH, yeah, stick with what you need to master. :)

(and best wishes with that campaign/game)

Troggy's probably gonna run it, but I'm becoming his Roll20 guru sidekick.

Had a lot of fun putting together comprehensive power macros for his 4e campaign.

Cheers, off to emergent tasking ... laundry. :p

Automating as much as possible so he can put in the minimum info per NPC before the game and then just click a button during the session and it'll run all the math in the background.

ttfn

Sophie Lagacé is the new Fate Line Developer for Evil Hat Productions!

@ACuriousMind I'd argue that one doesn't need to make much of an investment to start D&D. Find a group, have someone build you a character based off a five-minute convo, sit next to someone who owns the book. Read the (free) basic rules after your first session, with a highlighter in hand. If, after a month of that you like it then maybe you buy something. (cc: @heather)

Though what everyone else says contains plenty of truth: there are much simpler games out there, there are ones which are entirely free (that's not D&D's model!), there are ones much better suited to doing different things.

Also it looks like heather may have an easier time starting a new group with friends than finding someone who already knows a game.

And for that, D&D's definitely on the deeper end of the sunk-costs pool.

@BESW Yes, certainly.

I have a really hard time putting myself in the mindset of someone who's never played an RPG, trying to answer (for myself) the question "what RPG should I start with?"

I'm tempted to say Dread.

...I still have to play that.

I tend to recommend Fate because it's low sunk costs, feeds into commonly shared media tropes about how stories work, puts a lot of emphasis on learning positive table habits, is super adaptable for whatever the group needs, and has a lot of free expansion material.

That makes it non-threatening as a starter, and easy to abandon if it doesn't work for the group, but it still gives a foundation that'll be useful whatever they wind up playing.

Hmmm. I don't think I'd recommend Fate to a group of newbies. We floundered with it when we started, and we certainly weren't new to the hobby.

@BESW I feel like the spectrum of high-complexity to low-complexity systems correlates pretty strongly with the "puts lots of ideas/examples out there for you and puts guardrails around you" to "gives you a blank page to work with" spectrum. Fate, for me, is a little too far to the "blank page" end of things to recommend as a first game.

But I'm a person for whom a blank page is one of the scariest things....

@Magician From what I've seen in reported game experiences, traditional gamers are the ones with the most trouble going into Fate, while it works better for newer gamers.

@nitsua60 Aye, that's one reason I make sure to tell people about the Worlds of Adventure for Fate while recommending it.

@BESW whazzat?

@nitsua60 Evil Hat has a Patreon that funds a new setting book every few months. Each on is a pre-packaged setting with slightly customized rules and character creation guidance, and a one-session adventure to run, often with pre-gen characters.

@BESW Could be. Would be interesting to get fresh players and introduce them to Fate, see how they react to it.

They range from post-apocalypse zombie-hunters to He-Man homage to firefighters to deep-sea explorers to magic-using cats to psychic high schoolers to suburban fey folk to Three Musketeers with jetpacks to intergalactic cooking competition.

And because they're funded by Patreon, they're pay-what-you-want-including-free for everybody else.

@Magician It also coincides with my observed experience, but of course that always includes my own interference as a participant so the data's skewed.

But from what I've seen myself, D&D-style gamers tend to treat the rules as the primary touchstone while new gamers tend to treat the shared narrative as the primary touchstone, and Fate favors the latter while deforming a bit in the face of the former.

And I'm not just talking about observing Fate games; one of the reasons I moved to Fate games (and outward from there) was because of some very awkward experiences with new gamers in D&D and I realized I liked their perspective better than the one D&D had taught me.

There's another side to this. D&D has a well defined, refined over decades structure, a tale as old as time: PCs go into places and fight monsters there. All the mechanics center on that, and it's a narrative arc well understood by most as it's made its way into countless computer games since then. Whereas Fate gives you tools to make your own story, and stories are hard.

True. But you can tell that story in Fate too.

That particular one - not very well.

Like, I once spent a whole evening telling a new player "no" to cool ideas just because they were too high level for the group at the moment. They were immersed in the narrative and had a very good instinct for what would make a good character and a good story.

It just wasn't something that D&D was willing to let happen because coolness is gated.

That's what I mean; new players do tend to know how stories work. They've seen movies and TV shows, read books and comics, played video games and listened to concept albums. I've never met a new player who was at a loss for how to make their own story.

I've only met players who were at a loss for how to make a story that conformed to the game system they were playing.

There's a world of difference between a reader and an author, though.

Aye, and systems help with tools.

In a very real way, that's what RPG systems are: tools that provide guidance and support to move into the author space.

That's too broad a statement. Not everyone is after the author stance, and some systems, including D&D, are perfectly happy to have players take ownership of only a small part of the game, their character.

It's not the only thing RPGs are, and I didn't say author stance.

That's a jargon term I chose not to invoke.

Both of those distinctions were lost on me.

(Authorship, in the broad sense, is still a useful lens to view the actor and director stances in the sense that you invoked it with game-as-storytelling above.)

Yes, I think you're offering counterpoints to points that I didn't intend to make.

...which is why my line of thinking is that newbs should get exposed to more than one point in the space of RPG systems, preferably points that are well separated

@Shalvenay Certainly. Though that's a ways off from "we just want to try RPGs to see if they're for us".

@Magician yeah, I happen to know a player myself who'd do very well in Fate but I'd really rather run a Fate game with some folks who have Fate experience so I can debug how I run the game before I inflict my miscues on someone who's rather new to RPGs in general

hi

[wave]

[surfs]

I wonder if the Mountain Dew can is a prop or just a happenstance

I think I'd guess the former since the dice bin is quite neatly opposite of it.

That would be my guess too

That, and I'd personally murder anyone who placed a drink on the battlemat.

Unusual to see a Fate game with a mat and minis.

@kviiri Maybe it's like Sprite week.

We're playing Fate today and I'm a bit spooked

I've had zero time to prep. And I have absolutely zero energy to try to do anything but my thesis

Get the players to do the heavy lifting.

Also, consider canceling if you don't think you're up for it. It's disappointing, but not as disappointing as a subpar game - for you or the players. Self care and all that.

Yeah, or you could ask someone else to run a game of Roll For Shoes for that night.

@Magician Well, I warned them in advance and they seemed cool with it

...or break out Honey Heist.

Of course, they might be wrong :s

I've been thinking of having each player come up with a villain as well as a PC

I love doing that!

Some of our best antagonists have been player-made.

I even once had a player come to me with a character he'd been making as a PC and then decided it would be better as an antagonist.

Cool, then I'll do that and see what I get :)

I don't really have a problem improvising if it comes down to it, I'm more worried about bad prep than no prep ruining games.

@kviiri Suddenly the game revolves around the same subject as your thesis

@Helwar I think Sigil of DnD is usually a toroid... hmm

Dimensions & Diagrams, eh?

Definitions and Distress

oh the blasphemous shape magic

Ah, so it's more like Grotesque Usurpation of Regular Physical Standards.

XD

Futzing Around with Toroidal Elasticity?

I can't come up with a good backronym of my thesis topic though

@BESW the Globe Shall Shine?

My thesis is essentially about studying a certain family of graph problems, ones whose solutions are essentially a matter of being "locally correct" for each node in the graph

Eg. graph coloring (for each node, choose a color out of a limited so that no neighboring node has a different color) is such a problem, because we can just check each node and see if it has a neighbor with a same color or not. We call these problems Locally Checkable Labelings

I study these problems in toroidic grids, which are basically n×n grids that loop from up to down and right to left.

Don't Wait, Analyze Individual Toroidic Axis Solutions.

ok you win I don't know what that is

XD

Doctor Who: Adventures In Time And Space.

oh

@kviiri youtube recommends me this video non-stop since a few weeks ago...

@Helwar That video is near the center of the internet.

Organized Solutions with Reliably Indexed Colors.

@kviiri I was about to say I didn't get it. But on rereading it... I did!

@Helwar I'm practicing the "explaining it" part :)

Rule-Mapped Shading System.

Toroidic Node Mapping Tests and Other Solutions.

Otter solutions

lol

...is there part of the thesis you've been holding out on us about?

g.redditmedia.com/…

@BESW The part I haven't been speaking much about is that it's empirical computability theory!

@kviiri That's otterly adorable

Hm, what would be a good template for player-made NPC villains? The same as with normal PCs?

I was thinking about "Name, HIgh Concept, Single Redeeming quality" but the last one sounds like a fancier way to say "trouble".

Are we talking a recurring villain the players will love to hate?

Name, Diabolical Plan, Once-Noble Motive.

@BESW Probably not since this is intended as a one-shot.

Ah, so that changes the kind of things that'll be important to mechanize.

I like aspects that relate to modes of action.

I think I'd like to see the game end with each villain defeated, weakener greatly or reformed. (Fate can do social combat which I'd like to showcase a bit)

I also like giving NPCs aspects that tie to the PCs, especially in one-shots to establish backstory.

So, High Concept, Villain Gimmick, and Long-Held Grudge.

This is getting good

Cool

I'll introduce that to my party now

(Remember the grudge doesn't have to step on the PC's toes: it's something the villain blames the PC for but it could be totally spurious or misinterpreted.)

@BESW nice

@BESW oh ho ho this one is even better

Whats the difference here between Concept and Gimmick?

Concept is who the person is; if you had to describe them with a single short pithy phrase, what would you say?

Gimmick is how they do things: what's their go-to strategy or tool for accomplishing their goals?

Think about it this way:

When Batman shows up at a crime scene, he sees the gimmick used to commit the crime (birds, riddles, practical jokes) and knows who did it: Penguin, Riddler, Joker.

If someone at the crime scene doesn't know who that is, he'll tell explain it by saying the villain's concept.

if someone lives in Gotham and is at a crime scene for Batman to explain that to them,... I feel like they are not doing the job right

because they are probably police or media

or freaking Robin XD

Got ham?

if they don't they aren't doing their jobs right for sure

Implying that the 5e-balance-team did any research when designing races @YuantiPureblood... (smh at myself)

:P

@kviiri Spider-Ham!

@BESW That awkward moment when one realizes that Hamlet is just a more macabre name for Piglet.

lol

And don't forget Throg.

oh my god

Throg

THROG THROG THROG THROG

@trogdor He's a member of the Pet Avengers.

huh

At one point they wielded the Infinity Gems.

But yes, Throg was once a human, cursed to be a frog, who found a sliver of Mjolnir and wields it as Frogjolnir.

And sometimes Thor also gets turned into a frog.

lol

I love this too much

And apparently when Thor is a frog, he can have a psychic connection with Throg.

hmmm, just a sec, going to just go grab a "totally-not-a-potion-of-frog"

(just felt like adding to the brainstorm :P )

@DavidCoffron just fyi, we can also style your tables like this if you'd like:

Do you want me to make that edit?

@doppelgreener I didn't think to do that, but it does look better. I'll make the edit

@edshewa Hi!

hey!!

Welcome to RPG chat. What brings you this way?

ah realy nothing, i'm new here and I fell here by mistake, I'm sorry.

No worries! You're quite welcome to lurk or chat as you like.

I'm leaving anyway, this is not my thing

thanks for the hospitality

you are nice guys !!

ttfn

Fascinating thing of the day: a google images search for "micrography art"

@JoelHarmon I've seen those before. Super creative

google deep style probably could create some similar results.

Morning, Nerds

I just realised it was Ramadan! Happy Ramadan, to any of you observing it.

And this Thursday is the Declaration of the Báb, and next Tuesday is the Ascension of Bahá'u'lláh.

@nitsua60 Lol, sniped me. Was about to comment and close vote that bladed gauntlet question.

@Axoren That makes me wish I'd been ten seconds later--it's always nice to see more than just my name on the list of close-voters =)

Yeah, sometimes I'll think "Wow, what a jerk, closing that all by himself." /s

:P

It actually surprised me that 5e hasn't actually included a Spiked Gauntlet yet, in any of the recent books

@Axoren They've really held a line on "item bloat," it seems.

At the very least, when it matters thematically, they include things like for monk "You can just use a re-skinned dagger as a Sai."

Oh, crap. I'm forgetting battlerager armor....

There are spiked gauntlets, after a fashion.

Yeah, but those aren't an item.

It's more like an ability than an off-hand weapon

Because the intent is that you're body checking someone with your armor, rather than punching them

@SPavel Did you get a haircut/avatar change?

@Axoren No

*he's just verified

or some similar joke

@Axoren Except in the novels the Pwents are described as headbutting, punching, biting, and even bear-hugging... I feel like it goes well with the concept expressed in the question, if not the text of the question.

My mistake. I could have sworn your avatar was less lumpy before, but I guess this might be the first time I've seen it on the top-right in a larger size

@Axoren Before when?

Before today, when I've seen you in the past.

Rather recently.

It's been this for a while

@nitsua60 True, but that's a very specific limited to a single race/class/sublcass item.

Should we allow people to link to dandwiki?

@Axoren yes, but there is a warning we usually give when we see it.

@NautArch Please use your experience with this matter to give that warning. rpg.stackexchange.com/questions/122995/…

@Axoren I mean, as a policy. If you mean "should friends let friends link dandwiki?" I'd say "hell, no!"

@nitsua60 execution, obviously XD

@Axoren done.

@NautArch Thanks.

... just looking at the thing they wanted to use as a base and it makes almost no sense. It's a one-handed Heavy weapon that does 1d6.

@Axoren it also his this property "ou cannot be disarmed of a bladed gauntlet, but you cannot attack with it if you are holding anything in that hand."

seems like it should do 1d4, imo

@goodguy5 Agreed.

not sure why they decided it needed to be heavy

1d4 martial weapon. with the special property mentioned

done

Dagger, but better.

@goodguy5 to apply Great Weapon Master

@BESW What is the thing to say on those days?

@NautArch oh, gross. I didn't think about that. yea no

power gamers, man

@goodguy5 Reskinned Sickle with the "cannot be disarmed" property.

Otherwise, you need to remove the thrown property

You don't want people to "catch these fists"

ah, yes. you're right

XD

As for spiked gauntlets, I guess that would be the only change is the damage type.

As a result of them just being reskinned weapons, they'd count as having the hand occupied.

Is that really balanced?

I'm okay with the special property that you can still do stuff with the hand.

But then why would you ever use a sickle or club?

it gives ranged characters an "always on" weapon (no pun intended)

@Axoren Comrade, we do not compromise on ideology

@Axoren because you only have simple prof