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00:00 - 15:0015:00 - 00:00

3:00 PM
I must be going now. I have another pikkujoulu coming tomorrow and I need to get myself something shiny to wear.
@DForck42 Mazel Tov!!!
I was thinking if I can't find anything shiny otherwise I'll just wear a set of Christmas lights and a battery pack...
(on top of my normal party clothing of course)
@NautArch thank you!
@kviiri lol, they now sell led strips that run off of batteries
might have to go to a craft store to find it
@DForck42 That's an excellent idea
@kviiri :-D
3:02 PM
We have this really cheap no-frills everything store right next door that might just have em. Or might not...
We also have a recycled clothing charity store that's likely to have dem sparklies
sorry to go back in the thread...but want to revisit my assessment of Bard 7th level spells...and that they seem underwhelming. Am I missing something?
I'll pop back later to give analysis if I'm able :)
but now I must go
See ya
@DForck42 honeymooning somewhere?
@NautArch I haven't looked at them to give you an honest assessment. I think bards really hit their mark with 4th-5th level spells
@NautArch the wedding was last month, we stay-mooned in st. Louis for a week
@DForck42 yeah, that's what i've notcied. Eyebite could be cool, and the no-save Otto is nice, but you have to be at the right part in the initiative order for it to be meaningful.
3:09 PM
@NautArch or hold monster on... 4?... targets
@DForck42 upcasts don't count :)
@NautArch lol
but that seems to be the better use for those slots
I think 90% of any spell slot I spent above level 3 was upcasting a spell
i'm thinking of grabbing synaptic static instead of Forcecage (or some other spell)
3:10 PM
are you lore, valor, or other?
statis is basically a harder save fireball (intelligence) with an after effect for using a slot two higher.
@NautArch Well, the spells do completely nullify certain issues entirely. They are very powerful non-combat options. Teleport allows you unlimited range across the world instant travel on a whim as an action. Resurrection restores body parts, and is the first revival spell that can do that. Mordenkainen's mansion is a near guaranteed safe long rest in any dungeon. Etherealness lets you effectively walk through walls and escape harm for 8 hours in many circumstances too.
@NautArch good. what additional magical secrets have you taken?
fireball, counterspell, destructive wave, Bigby
@NautArch good choices
are you the primary caster?
3:15 PM
between counterspell and dispel magic , i'm a DM nightmare against casters
pretty much. we've got a bladesinger, warlock, and druid
@NautArch resurrection's probably not a bad one to take depending on healing capability/willingness of the party
@DForck42 yeah, i don't care enough about those yahoos tod o that. I've already invested in cure wounds and greater restoration. If someone dies, not my problem :)
and healing word
also...have you guys seen the Batman Anime Trailer
@Adam yeah, teleport is nice, but our rotating DMs create an issue of constantly moving worlds. We're never in the same place and I don't think it'd be superduper helpful.
@NautArch lol, fair
@DForck42 im in it for the fame and money. And all of my original friends are dead, including the cleric I followed who got me to make a deal with Bane to become a Warlock.
etherealness is interesting. Does that mean I could cast animated Objects and still command them while being safely in the ethereal?
I think the only thing that you're "missing" is that the spells can be extremely powerful non-combat options, or extremely powerful roleplaying opportunities. But if those opportunities don't come up in your game, then they are indeed underwhelming
@NautArch I believe so. Nothing in animate objects says you need to be on the same plane to control the objects
Ah, but etherealness says "While on the Ethereal Plane, you can only affect and be affected by other creatures on that plane."
And since animate objects turns the objects into creatures, I would wager that you couldn't affect them with commands
3:27 PM
@NautArch I think it's worth posting it to the site as it's not entirely clear
> I had a DM insist that we didn't notice an entire army of 30,000+ people charging our position for ~3 minutes without spot checks because the group was arguing about what to do whilst invisible.

I get being frustrated that your players aren't agreeing on what to do, but that was the wrong action to take. The rest of the campaign involved players performing arbitrary spot checks every five minutes and demanding the DM to describe what they see.
@Yuuki that's not fun
@Yuuki ugh, that's just bad
Also a lesson that DMs should not attempt to take advantage of descriptive minimalism (e.g. the town of mimics).
3:42 PM
@Yuuki What is this in response to?
@DForck42 good idea :) although i think i'd still rather have synaptic static
@MikeQ Eh, I came across a thread of DM traps and the like.
Would you agree that the GM/DM is responsible for communicating what the player characters should see/know without much effort?
@MikeQ I would. However, the DM could also be dropping hints that if ignored have a consequence.
@NautArch Could, maybe, but it's easy to see how that can go wrong when the players aren't mind-readers.
3:53 PM
@MikeQ oh, definitely. But I think that's more of a difference between "should see/know without much effort" vs "could see/know with a little bit of effort"
I've seen it go wrong too many times. Could you give an example of how it would be done properly?
Hre's an example when it went wrong :)
You are walking down the hallway and the casters in the party sense something horrific happening magically. From a door down the hallway, there are screams of anguish. What do you do?
Nothing, keep moving.
and then have the results of letting people die horrific deaths create a consequence
Well, hold on. Already the GM has prompted the players with new information. The players didn't have to actively get it, e.g. "Do we sense any nearby horror magic or hear any screams?" So in this scenario, that's somewhat fair.
Morning folks
I was referring to situations where the players have to actively ask the GM about whether their characters can or cannot already detect specific things.
4:05 PM
@MikeQ right, that was more of the prompt with a hint
@Alphaeus mornin!
@MikeQ ah, yeah. there's no good way to do that. If you are asking your places to know about something they have no reason to know and ask to look for, that's just setting them up for failure.
Just jumping into this discussion, as a DM I like to use the listen/spot mods for my players as a general judge of what they notice as a general rule, with only detailed study/important things requiring spot/listen checks.
I don't indicate when they might want to do this, but I do put them in situations when it might be obvious.
For example, I might let them know there are three doors in the room period
Noticing important details about these doors requires them doing checks
I was moreso referring to things like, the players should need to ask if there is an 80-foot dragon in front of them
It's like the inverse of unfairly using meta-game knowledge
If the player characters know it, then it's not fair for the GM to try to take advantage if the players themselves don't know it
@MikeQ yeah, that's just plain mean (like not noticing a 30k creature army approaching)
that's like saying you just left a town and now must suffer cold conditions because you didn't buy winter clothes.
without telling the players it's winter.
Right. Generally speaking, rolls should represent things that are somewhat difficult, or have a reasonable risk of failure
4:13 PM
That's the DM ignoring the Rule of Logic (Universal Laws of DMing, Point Q4)
"When dealing with player characters and their interaction with the world, before requiring any roll-play use logic to determine peripheral factors first."
Good morning Alpha
@MaikoChikyu Hey man
How long are you going to be around today?
A few hours
I'll be trying to get the rough-draft of your game to you today
@MaikoChikyu As a pathfinder player, have you tried out any of the occult classes or seen them in action?
4:25 PM
Just curious, @MikeQ why do you ask about those?
I tried medium.
Thanks @Alphaeus
@Alphaeus In short, I don't understand some of the classes, or what they're designed to do.
Well, I've been around them a bit and am currently in love with Mesmerist, so I might be able to help a tiny bit
Mesmerist I think I understand, and I often refer to it as the "anti-bard"
I'm finding it's surprisingly powerful
Now, the Kineticist is more or less a reflavoring of the 3.5e Psion (Kineticist).
4:31 PM
But I can't seem to wrap my head around Occultist or Medium. Occultist seems like a big jumble of spell-like options and has its own complicated rule system for spell casting, and Medium has a weird mechanic that punishes players for using their class features.
Ah, lol, those are the two I'm least familiar with
So far, my understanding of Medium is that it's designed for when you're unsure about what class to play, but maybe I'm wrong
I played with an Occultist once, and it generally plays like a really odd Wizard variant.
Or, better, a Wizard/Cleric Hybrid
The Occult Classes in general are more about breaking from the normal way classes function
For example, the mesmerist's attacks aren't actually attacks and there is no in-game way of countering them defensively of which I am aware
Well some of them are easier to comprehend than others. Mesmerist, Spiritualist, and Psychic are nearly 1-to-1 mappings from existing classes (respectively, Bard, Summoner, and Sorcerer)
4:37 PM
Medium is mostly for ghostbuster settings
Kineticist is unique, but at least the concept is clear. You throw elements at people. Become the avatar without casting any spells.
Yeah, I've played Mesmerist and played with Spiritualists, Psychics, and one Occultist...but otherwise I don't see the other classes used much
What does the Mesmerist Medium offer? What does it shine at that other classes don't?
So, the mesmerist attracted me because I totally defies normal magic conventions
Sorry, typo. I meant Medium.
4:42 PM
Ah, nvm
İt's similar to binder
It is really hard to put it in words
Were you ever at risk of getting possessed by your own spirits?
5:00 PM
@MaikoChikyu For ease of paperwork I'm going to be working less on the "massive empire" scale and more on "warring city-states" level. You'll still be ruling multiple towns/cities, but I don't want players having to try to handle 3,652 soldiers of this type, 2,134 soldiers of that type, 496 Priests of this type, 84 Priests of that time, 29 Engineers, etc.
The system will be modular enough to scale up, but the scale will still be a bit smaller since this is going to be pen-and-paper rather than computer calculated
5:34 PM
@DForck42 congratulations! My wife and I call it "the first day of the best of our lives."
@Alphaeus User DForck42 recently gained the "married" template. Permanent +1 increase to CR.
ooh ooh, can i cast Ceremony?
Hi all o/ Hope it's not poor etiquette to pop in and ask a game-identification question? I'm looking for the name/id of a collaborative 'history-writing' game, probably indie-funded, span is broad (hundreds or thousands of years).
5:48 PM
@NautArch Looks promising, will investigate! Thanks :)
@bertieb np :)
I think he was thinking dawn of fantasy
Through microscope seems really interesting
@SevenSidedDie per our earlier discussion, is this a dupe. I'm going to guess the answer is probably no, but invites questions of can a paladin/ranger/cleric/sorcerer teach a wizard a spell.
yes, each one is separate, but they are all the same with the same answer.
@NautArch The distinction being made there is that the spells are on both the class lists, raising a fresh doubt. So they're not dupes, though it's a very close thing. I'd already looked at it and went through that calculation. The answer is almost certainly no, but knowing the answer matches is necessary but insufficient for voting to dup; the questions have to match, with no possible distinctions. The key idea is that they have to be the very same question.
6:02 PM
Second question (related, bit more of a long shot): there was a website (blog) linked to from a question on here that discussed building an open world for multiple groups to adventure in, All actions starts from a central city, etc. Not sure of my chances here, but any thoughts?
(the website discussed both, but google / rpg.se searches have been especially and maddeningly fruitless)
Belay that request, I think it was ars ludi (open world was West Marches, Microscope session was 'Flight of the Madamas'), thanks for stopping me from going crazy!
@SevenSidedDie On Board & Card Games we regularly have to re-explore the same concepts to answer very different questions. So for dozens of questions we'd re-explain how a certain facet of attack/defence works, but we'd be linking that back to saying "and so in your situation you get this outcome", and that always varies. Or sometimes it's the same outcome, but a different situation.
RPG.SE doesn't often have to re-explain the same fundamental issues, but that we do doesn't make it a duplicate.
@doppelgreener Yeah, just so. I think we see it here most clearly with all the questions that all have "talk to them" as the principled answer.
That's true
Though whenever we do we give applied advice on how the discussion needs to occur, so "talk to them" is only the very start of it
all the answers that say "talk to them or walk" and don't provide any specific advice as to how to handle the talk or the walk go pretty badly
Bertieb if you decide to play Microscope on a forum or roll20 tell me. I want to give it a shot after reading it.
@MaikoChikyu Will do if I do indeed do so! More likely to try it as an in-person thing tho :)
6:17 PM
I am a bit confused as to what Lens is? Is it how the game refers to the GM?
@nitsua60 I think one key part of the difference in that Gorgon answer is that afroakuma was sourcing his primary corroboration to the nature of the Lamia and the Su-monster -- it would take a coincidence of cosmic scale for all three to just happen by coincidence in both books without connection.
In your iteration, primary attribution was given to Peterson's work, via a passage that didn't give attribution to anything specifically, which praise aside is a weaker corroboration (maybe he just read wikipedia)
@MaikoChikyu Lens in what sense? In this room we're usually using "lens" as shorthand for a perspective or paradigm. For example, the player's lens on a game is fundamentally different to the GM's lens, and a person playing Fate for the first time has a different lens to someone who's played Fate for years.
Sorry i should have been more specific. I have gotten the microscope pdf and it keeps referring to lens
@MaikoChikyu The 'lens' is the active player :)
As far as i understand we start from an event and choose a character and then describe what happens to that character thus describing the event/world in the process
6:40 PM
@SevenSidedDie gotcha - i'm beginning to understand. apologies for my slowness.
Hmm .. how many classic D&D monsters can you name that were "probably the product of a wizard's experiments"? OK, now how many wizard spells are known that could be used to such an end?
@Erics Wish, Create Undead, extraplanar summoning spells
Although I think the point is that Wizards created those monsters through extensive research and study, so the spells used wouldn't be commonly known (or everyone would make owlbears!)
(I'd make a catrabbit)
Yup. But not even a spell that could mash two beasts together as a temporary monstrosity?
Of course, even that'd mean the DM would have to figure out a statblock
Maybe a spell that could imbue one monster (with known stats) with one attribute/quality of another?
There are grafts
@Erics Is this just a theoretical interest, or are you actually looking to include such a spell in a game?
6:55 PM
Certain forms of "mind jar" "mind switch" "consume likeness" and whatnot might work as spells as well...
The latter, hence the mechanics/effort aspect
our two top members are neck and neck for rep :O
well top by rep at least :D
@NautArch Cheers, and no need to apologise. Some of the bits of this place are counter-intuitive…
@MaikoChikyu That's only when playing scenes. Scenes are the least common thing to happen during someone's turn. A player's turn is entirely the first sentence on page 20 (“Making History”). A scene is still one player's turn, and Lenses have nothing to do with how a scene works.
@MaikoChikyu The Lens isn't even the player who's currently taking their turn at Making History. The Lens is the player that started the round: they get two turns to Make History, starting and ending the round.
They also define what the Focus is for everyone's turn that round.
7:15 PM
@SevenSidedDie I guess I keep boiling things down to the core, and the core here is how can a wizard learn new spells outside of what is gained at levelling.
but in general, i think for here I need to learn not to look behind the question, but just what it is at face value. It's an adjustment - not how i approach problems :)
@NautArch There's still a certain amount of reading between the lines — but the need there is to read to what they are thinking and asking rather than into what we know would be the right question to ask. For example, even that wording would have different answers yet again, as Magic Initiate and such would become possible answers. It's not the core problem underlying the question.
It's a fine art, interpreting questions. I find the best practice for reading questions is editing messy ones: to manage an edit to clarify a question without changing its meaning involves laying hands on the meaning behind it with nuance and detailed consideration that's usually not triggered by just reading.
@SevenSidedDie good point. I'm generally a good editor, but in these cases...i am not.
7:33 PM
@NautArch I've more than once started to edit a question, got several minutes or longer into a revision, and then realised that I didn't properly understand the question, at least not enough to represent it faithfully with new words. It's… revelatory to run into that.
i think what makes it hard is not being able to discuss it with the creator of the question
there's often a large gap between what someone asks and what they want to know
7:55 PM
@NautArch Sometimes the asker will be responsive to questions to clarify what they're asking. Also, after a big edit I make it a rule to ask if the result is still asking the question they meant to ask; I've been wrong sometimes, but often they'll confirm it's accurate.
@SevenSidedDie I'll have to take a chance at doing more edits :)
@NautArch Worst case scenario you can always roll it back
@GreySage or they can :)
Is it okay to ask questions due to idle curiosity?
@MaikoChikyu yes.
8:22 PM
@MaikoChikyu Usually. They are more at risk of being poorly received, which is separate from whether they're on-topic. So when asking curiosity questions, making sure they're good questions is more important to avoid downvotes.
Got it. Also any chance you guys remember the name of the series where the dragons had cannibalized eachother and reigned as overlords?
Their presence changed their environment
8:37 PM
İt was dawn of the new age
> -72 Hours Remain-
8:55 PM
@MaikoChikyu I think it's a reference to a meme. (I'm not familiar with this meme either, but it sounded like one, and some research turned that up.)
These days, everything's a meme reference, I guess.
I was more referencing the game it comes from, but I guess there's technically no difference.
i think there's a massive ddos going on. I know bigcommerce is getting hit, but reddit also seems to be.
@kviiri Vader'd gotten one free invoke from an earlier action already.
(When the scene opens and he taunts Luke "You are not a Jedi yet," that's creating an advantage on Luke's Jedi in training aspect.)
@Yuuki I explained what memes were to my daughter the other day, and she was horrified. I guess “pieces of information that are using our brains and culture to protect and reproduce themselves, by analogy to the way genes created cells and bodies as giant mecha to protect and reproduce themselves…” may have been too much a peek behind the metaphysical curtain.
@BESW Disarmed and dishanded.
9:11 PM
@SevenSidedDie how old is your daughter?
@NautArch 10 now.
that's some heady stuff
@NautArch I was impressed that she did find it mildly horrifying. The implications of the gene/meme analogy are only unsettling when you can grasp the idea in the first place.
@SevenSidedDie Absolutely! I was impressed a couple days ago when my kids were looking for holiday presents and at first I said that they shouldn't look or they won't get any. Followed it up later saying they're not here. My son (turns 6 in feb) said "but you said if we find them, we won't get them. SO they're here."
Ugh... FLGS is instituting a "cover charge" for RPG players. It's causing all sorts of wailing and gnashing of teeth and drama... =\
(To be clear: "ugh" is for the drama, not the cover. I'm ambivalent toward the cover.)
9:22 PM
I'm guessing folks weren't buying much from the store?
@nitsua60 Huh. It's not unusual to charge a table fee at places where the snacks & incidental sales don't justify the use of square feet anymore, but calling it a “cover charge” may be mishandled PR. Though I guess also any change is going to be seen as terribad by enough people.
"We're not Motel 6, we can't just keep the light on for you."
@nitsua60 is that just for YOUR store, or is that an AL thing for all stores?
@NautArch This store.
@BESW I don't have a great sense. I know we don't splash the cash around like Magic players.... but I do buy my books there at slmot double the price I could get online.
@nitsua60 Sadly, even at those prices the margin on RPGs is nearly non-existent for stores. If they're typical, MtG literally pays their bills. It's an equation that makes it increasingly hard for stores to make a value proposition to RPGers that they can both afford and that is worth considering as RPGers. :/
9:36 PM
@nitsua60 do th tables use minis? or TOtM?
Yeah, last time I went to my FLGS, he was making more money off artificial cats than off RPGs. Very much a "middle schoolers buying Magic" economy.
Jan 22 '13 at 5:59, by BESW
The main room is lined with model vintage cars, used DVDs, obscure action figures, a life-like cat statue with rabbit fur, and a table of beat-up comics. Its main income is obviously trading cards. There are no dice beyond the standard cheap plastic d4/6/8/10/12/20, the D&D section seems to have been abandoned to its own devices a couple years ago, the miniature selection is minimal, odd, and exclusively plastic.
Jan 22 '13 at 5:59, by BESW
And the gaming room is lined with (I was told) enough supplies to feed a family of ten for a year.
The last time I went to a game store was actually to buy MtG cards, and the time before that was to buy board games. I haven't bought RPGs or RPG supplies in a physical store for a long time, despite a ridiculous (and ridiculously-ever-expanding) collection.
I went to my FLGS a few times, but he never had anything I actually wanted. Like, I went to buy a lot of different-colored d6s for Don't Rest Your Head. He only sold white pipped ones individually and at a pretty high cost, and didn't have enough for my purposes anyway.
Even in a major city with several FLGS to choose from, there's not much for players who aren't doing Pathfinder or D&D 5e. There isn't nothing, but it doesn't make for a compulsion to regularly visit or even occasionally check in.
9:52 PM
@NautArch probably a 50-50 split.
@nitsua60 just thinking that if they're smart, they'd go by the tables, see the character sheets and try to sell them custom ordered minis.
@NautArch If they're trying to make money, they'd have kicked us out years ago and just run M:tG events every night.
@nitsua60 touche
@BESW tis sad indeed
10:00 PM
@trogdor Here, have a venomous dragon for comfort.
The gila monster is one of only a handful of venomous lizards in the world! They feed on eggs & newborn mammals. (Photo: Gary Nafis)
10:28 PM
Anyone remember the story arc in Jackie Chan Adventures where the talismans' powers escape and possess appropriate animals?
I never saw the episode with the Dragon talisman, what animal did they put it on?
I have no clue
I don't think I saw that one either, tbh
@NautArch I think you're missing the real power of Teleport, incidentally. You may not need it as a transport option, but a spell you can use in almost any circumstance to instantly get you and your entire party somewhere safe is more than a little handy.
My party avoided TPK twice using Word of Recall, which (for these purposes) is basically the same.
Ah, of course there is a Jackie Chan Adventures wiki
Apparently they resurrected the dragon demon guy so the power went into him
lame 0/10
1 hour later…
11:50 PM
DMing my first campaign tomorrow, wish me luck.
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