TRPG General Chat

12:00 AM

@Shalvenay The idea of it is sound. It removes direct access to the files, so people can't accidentally delete things. Depending on how they manage that, however, can be a bit of a difficulty

Shalvenay

@Ben deleting something out of your working copy by accident is not exactly a world-ending disaster :P

Ben

Yes - that's what I mean. But if it's the original copy; that's a bit more of a substantial issue lol

That's what a DMS (should) handle

Shalvenay

well, the original's safely off in the repository in VCS-land ;)

Ben

@Shalvenay I've had one guy delete the repository because the "folder name didn't make sense"

Shalvenay

@Ben what VCS?

Ben

12:07 AM

@Shalvenay SVN

Shalvenay

@Ben wow. what were they doing rummaging around the SVN server for?

Ben

@Shalvenay Well, I'd say part of the issue was that it wasn't on a dedicated server, just on the network share, so that other users could download it to work on it. Then one guy found it, and, not knowing what it was deleted it. ".svn" folder and an (apparently) empty "trunk" folder

They were likely doing some kind of network cleanup or something.

It was before my time though

Ben

12:29 AM

In other news, while creating my [Hancock Spider-Man]() in Savage Worlds, there was a suggestion to give him the "burrowing" ability; essentially making him a "Funnel Web" Spider man

That idea, to me, is terrifying

Mike Q

@Ben By the way, I apologize if my tone sounded like a personal attack on you. I was being a bit harsh because I've been on both sides of this kind of situation (i.e,. an admin with user problems, and a user with admin problems) and this scenario raised some red flags.

Ben

@MikeQ Not at all :) I do understand your concerns, and your advice was very professional

Honestly the likeliness of this even happening is minimal anyway, regardless of the situation.

Just realised I didn't place the link in my last post. Hancock Spider-Man

feature-request Some way to create a link for RPG-General "special rules"

jeff-rules

daze413

yeah-jeff-is-the-best

Ben

12:45 AM

chat.stackexchange.com/transcript/message/39543958#39543958 jeff-rules

That way we can go through and read all of the brilliant, stupid, stupidly brilliant, brilliantly stupid, and all-around hilarious custom rules

BESW

Current year is blue; last year is orange. Looks like @wilw’s Fate episode had a big impact on our site’s traffic… https://twitter.com/i/web/status/900743458092187649

Tweeted by Fate_SRD on August 24, 2017 at 3:35 PM

New post: I just set the price of the #FateCore supplement The Way into Fate to Pay What You Want. http://harryjconnolly.com/a-sudden-attack-of-common-sense/ @EvilHatOfficial

Tweeted by byharryconnolly on August 24, 2017 at 4:33 PM

Ben

@BESW oooooh!

BESW

I know nothing about the franchise, but free Fate stuff that gets re-tweeted by Fred Hicks can't be all bad.

Ben

Or @Miniman you reckon you could find a way to search for these rules? I dunno how... probably quoted and bold or something?

Shalvenay

1:02 AM

hey there @daze413

Ben

1:20 AM

The Ultimate Cantrip - Over 65,000,000 Damage!!!

►

Miniman

@Ben Which rules do you mean?

Ben

@Miniman Just the ones we come up with in chat for some fun

2 days ago, by doppelgreener

> Knock some sense into you. You can communicate telepathically with someone, but you gotta punch them to do it. You didn't make the rules. You'd change them if you could.

FFor example

Miniman

1:38 AM

Then no, not possible. Chat search is extremely limited.

Ben

In that case I go back to my previous feature-request :P

daze413

1:50 AM

@Shalvenay ohai!

Shalvenay

@daze413 how're things going?

daze413

Wondering what to do next here...

don't have enough badges to synonymimninamimeze them

BESW

When a consensus is reached, someone in the community will cinnamonify the tags.

Ben

Delicious

BESW

@doppelgreener Is it time to make narration a cinnabun?

daze413

1:57 AM

I think it's about as cooked as it can be

@Shalvenay in other news, got a game with miniman, his sister and ben later tonight... (spoilers)

I was too excited about the thing

or not

> **Conjure PC**
Conjuration Cantrip
Range: within the dungeon
Casting time: 1 hour (add 2 hours per page of backstory)
V, M (a copy of the PC's character sheet, costs 1 gp)
You conjure a powerful physics-defying humanoid creature called a Player-Character in an unoccupied space within range, the DM chooses where and how the PC gets there. Commonly, they are either prisoners in the dungeon, or lost adventurers, your DM might also decide that the PC was with you all along and only now made himself present. _For the road is long, and you are too few to be one short._

Ben

2:28 AM

@daze413 how did you get here?

daze413

And of course, the "You look trustworthy, join us!" line

Ben

3:18 AM

I do try and play that up a little bit, but it's often met with "Ben don't be an idiot", or more often, just completely ignored

BESW

Mmm. Even in D&D, I asked players to make characters who had reasons to work together.

Ben

Trouble is when you have the "A wild PC appeared" conundrum, the "well howdy there stranger, would you like to join our squad? I don't feel like murdering anybody today so just don't steal my valuables and I reckon we'll get on great" approach seems a little farfetched haha

BESW

Today's Adventure in Autocorrect is "Roll for Sores."

Ben

3:42 AM

D20

Dice Service

8

Ben

That explains my aching back

Adeptus

4:59 AM

@Ben In the game I'm running, we had a new PC join when the others had just reached level 2. The first adventure is based in/around a small, mostly human populated, town. The new PC (and several of the others) is an Elf. So I just said, "all Elves in town know each other, because there's so few of you. This guy is one of your friends." (7 PCs. 4 elves, 1 half-elf, 1 halfling, 1 dwarf.)

godskook

@Ben This is variable on how you arrange your table's "Page" in Session 0. In my game? My PCs are part of an organization that is in many ways like the Harpers from Forgotten Realms: Agents are expected to be self-acting resource-independent do-gooders. With some agents being quite secretive when afield, its not unusual to see an ally in the strangest of places, and since my PCs aren't murder-hobos, they're perfectly comfortable recruiting viable agents on their own dime.

kviiri

6:02 AM

@Ben In our rotating party, we had a NPC to PC promotion. One of our players couldn't decide on whether to play Fighter or Wizard, and he decided on Fighter. But he had a change of heart after the first session and secretly planned a character death for the Fighter with the GM and then started playing a Wizard NPC who was the VIP of our escort quest.

It was neat :)

BESW

9:26 AM

This is relephant to my interests:

Wonderful lantern slides of extinct animals from the George Loudon collection currently on display @McrMuseum… https://twitter.com/i/web/status/900975398338654208

Tweeted by Jamie_Woodward_ on August 25, 2017 at 6:57 AM

KorvinStarmast

@NautArch Going off line... hurricane

trogdor

@KorvinStarmast oof, hope you don't have too bad a time with that

BESW

9:53 AM

@godskook This is similar to a conceit I used in several of my D&D campaigns, and a major element of why our Atomic Robo game worked even with an irregularly rotating set of players.

It's also a great way to frame one-shots.

Haquim

10:51 AM

Hello again.

My question from yesterday has been answered quite well, but unfortunately the answers, while interesting, don't aid me in reaching my goal.
Which propably means that I asked the wrong question... again.

Apparently my problem is not weapon resistances, but rather the fact its overcome by magic weapons at all.

But that makes me wonder:

What should I even ask?
Why are there no monsters with resistance to magic weapons?
Why do magic weapons overcome their damage type resistance, unlike a fireball for example?
How do magic weapons work?
How does being glow-in-the-dark make a hammer hurt ghosts?
Why can a magic dagger cut an iron golem to ribbons? I mean seriously, the golem is magic too, and the material alone would withstand the dagger easily...

Do you think I should try to get a question out of that confusion that doesn't get closed instantly, or should I just house-rule the stuff and be done with it?

nwp

What do you actually want to do?

Figure out how to make sense of the rules or change the rules to make sense?

Narusan

Hey guys, I've been playing The Dark Eye for roughly 8 months now with a group of friends, and it's great fun. However, I get the feeling that we are all power gamers and basically role-playing is lacking a lot. We all agreed that we want to do more roleplaying, but for some reason always fall out of character a few minutes after the game has started.

I checked the Q&A and haven't found a good answer on how to start with roleplaying, but I admit I didn't go through them all (and the relevance-filter was sort of weird.Should I ask a question about this? Are there online tips on how to start roleplaying? Are there threads I've overlooked?

nwp

@Haquim The answer to all but the first question is "Because that's how magic works in this game". Which is completely unhelpful.

Haquim

11:13 AM

Well, what I want is easy:

I need monster(s) that can't be sneaked to death by the rogue in milliseconds or simply be annihilated by the fighter

both have a magic weapon at their disposal (or a way to make it magic)

but as of now, it seems that magic weapons are actually superweapons with no existing defense against them

Secespitus

You know, the usual "You are the DM, it's your world" argument sounds dull, but if you are bent on it, why not create such a monster?

Haquim

because I hate houseruling. Its stuff I have to keep track off, and it means my players can't be sure that the world will be the way they expect it to be.

Secespitus

That is, if you already gave them the magic weapons. Otherwise just try to be more sparse with magical weapons. There are a lot of other interesting magical items that you can use as loot.

Haquim

So i always to my utmost to find a way to work with the official rules

Being sparse with magic weapons is simply not possible. Monks at level 6 are automatic magic weapons, wizard, paladin, etc. can cast "magic weapon"...

Even if they don't have a weapon that is +1 of whathaveyou, any adventurer above level 5 has easy access to it. Unless they have 6 levels in peasant or are a fighter-only group or similar unusual setups :/

Secespitus

@Haquim But casting something means that they have to expend resources to do this. At one point they will run out of their magic or deem something else more important. It's not like they always have everything available at every encounter.

nwp

11:20 AM

@Haquim A group of goblins will do nicely for that. Sure the rogue will annihilate one of them, but there are 10 more, and the overall damage to the group is minimal.

Haquim

The goblin trick works nicely, already did that one :D

Secespitus

What about other obstacles? Some hazard, trap or obstacles that can't be destroyed by brute force, but needs specific spells? Some kind of puzzle.

Haquim

But I need a "Boss" that is immune to the rogue, not a horde of mooks

@Secespitus the puzzle would be a fight, but that goes the right direction. Several monsters that are cut out to be defeated by the special abilities of one character - after they figured it out

Secespitus

@Haquim What about placing the boss outside of the reach of the Rogue/Fighter? A pedestal of some kind?

nwp

@Haquim Factor the rogue into the HP pool of the boss. The rogue will deal 5d6 damage per round to the boss, the fight should last ~5 rounds, so add 25d6 HP to the boss's HP pool. The rogue is happy that he does a ton of damage and you are happy that you took the rogue out of the fight.

Narusan

11:27 AM

Would asking this be considered off-topic?

Secespitus

@Narusan Something like this?

Narusan

Yeah, thanks. Dunno why I couldn't find these posts

Secespitus

@Narusan I searched "more roleplaying is:q"

Did you use the "is:q"? It's always distracting to have answers mixed in there, which is why I always limit searches like that to questions only.

Narusan

@Secespitus My terms were "introduce roleplaying". Yeah, I probably had answers in there and many old posts with little votes (although the filter was relevance) so it was difficult to find anything

Secespitus

@Narusan I also hate relevance sorting. I always switch to the votes tab.

Narusan

11:32 AM

@Secespitus Hm. Every answer that came up basically was over-act and get the others to role-play which is good advice once you know how to role-play. I did find this article though.

Secespitus

@Narusan I also like this question in general. There is a lot of useful advice for all kinds of situations in there. Maybe you find something that helps you there.

Maybe this too?

BESW

@Narusan I recommend experimenting with other systems. Games like roll-for-shoes effectively remove the "power" focus entirely leaving nothing to do BUT roleplay, while games like fate effectively encourage roleplaying by providing mechanisms which prompt and reward it.

The more different games I play, the more I learn about the gaps between the mechanics where the actual play takes place.

Systems with a lot of crunchy moving parts are quite fun, but I've seen them overwhelm players who are trying to achieve other goals.

Haquim

@nwp That unfortunately won't work. If I do that, the rogue will still easily outdamage the wizard and steal the spotlight. Also I don't like the solution to simply make monsters HP sponges.

@Secespitus Nice idea, but he's got a crossbow...

BESW

11:48 AM

lady-blackbird is another RPG that's easy to pick up and play, which mechanizes roleplaying so that it's equivalent to "powergaming."

Narusan

@BESW Thanks for the recommendation. TDE actually does reward role-playing (there is no XP for killing monsters, but usually you get less XP because you didn't find a workaround and had to resort to fighting).

BESW

Yeah, that's one mechanic among many. The games I'm recommending (all legally free and pretty quick to learn) have mechanics that are roleplaying.

Narusan

One big problem I have is that I always fall out of character. Always. I tell myself that this time for sure I'm going to role-play my way through, but after a few minutes, I end up strategising. The games feel more like a group version of a strategic game like chess, and our PC's are but pawns on the chessboard. Is there anything one can do to stop falling out of character?

BESW

In Fate and Lady Blackbird, a character's personality, goals, and quirks are their mechanics.

If you try to play chess with them, you'll wind up roleplaying anyway because the rules the PCs use are basically mechanized descriptions of the characterizations.

In Fate you get points when your character's traits compel them to get into trouble, and you spend points to invoke your character's traits to get them out of trouble. You "level up" by finishing story arcs.

In Lady Blackbird you get XP for hitting character traits, and you can get LOTS of XP for dramatically rejecting a character trait (and probably use that XP to buy a new one so you can keep earning XP in the future).

Haquim

12:17 PM

Ok, I guess what I want is simply not possible when trying to only use the official material. My group also has covered their weaknesses well, so I it is quite frustrating to get all ideas shot down with "yeah, that won't work, they are prepared for that"

nwp

I still feel we have not discovered the actual problem.

Haquim

I suppose I have to pull the GM card and put the NerfHammer to magic weapons. Since the only thing I hate more than adjusting rules is making exceptions to them...

The problem is: If you have a magic weapon you can kill EVERYTHING

Secespitus

@Haquim You still do normal amounts of damage, it's not like everything drops like a fly

nwp

Throwing things at them that they can solve is not a problem. Them being prepared is not a problem. Them being able to kill stuff is not a problem.

Secespitus

Are the players feeling that magic weapons are a problem?

Especially for fighters it's an important part to stay relevant and have more tools available.

nwp

12:20 PM

Maybe the actual problem is "how do I present a challenge to my players" or "how do I force my players to require tools they have not yet used".

Haquim

@Secespitus Of course not, although that might be because their enemies don't yet use them...

@nwp yeah, that puts it quite nicely. The problem is simply that magic weapons can solve every combat related problem since there is no resistance or immunity against them

If a tool fits every problem, why use something else?

Secespitus

@Haquim That's only for a standard "I hit till dead" fight. What about using the terrain to make it difficult to hit the enemy in the first place?

Haquim

Monk ignores terrain, likewise the clerics sacred flame, the paladin teleports and the rogue is sharpshooter (ignores cover)

They... are annoyingly well prepared...

Funnily enough, in this case it has nothing to do with equipment XD

nwp

What tool do you want them to use instead? Seems like you don't actually have the problem that all they do is hit stuff till it's dead.

Secespitus

If they really are good they deserve glory in my eyes... I'd love to have a group that tries to prepare for every situation. Or prepare at all.

Haquim

12:26 PM

What I had in mind was a juggernaut, that can't really be "killed" with their power level. Instead the wizard, who specializes in environment effects, has to set up a trap to use the ... well terrain to get rid of the monster

avalanche or throw it in the canyon basically

the rest have to keep it busy naturally - but i have learned that if it has HP they WILL kill it.

Secespitus

Which level is your party and which classes did they choose?

Haquim

Maybe just to annoy me that they managed to kill another monster they should've ran from screaming....

Depending on attendance we have usually 4-5 players

Cleric, Monk, Paladin, Wizard, Rogue, Barbarian

Which reminds me that i desperately need a huge spotlight for the barbarian

Oh and level 7

sorry

nwp

Matthew Colville had that setting where there was a lich, basically unkillable, who gave the party red gold coins whenever they killed something as a reward for making him stronger. Maybe you can set something up that forces the players to starve the lich of death in order to make it killable.

Haquim

You mean I should learn from WoW bosses?

nwp

You probably should, but I never really played WoW, so I don't know.

Maybe the source should be more obscure, unless your players also didn't play WoW.

Secespitus

12:35 PM

Didn't trolls have a pretty good regeneration? If you give them a big troll that regenerates enough to basically negate the damage your party does, but is positioned near a chasm so that you just throw it out of the way and be done with it you might achieve what you want.

With enough HP and Regeneration pure damage shouldn't be a problem.

Haquim

Trolls are not really viable because of their goddarned int. Also, even if fire didn't negate reg for some reason the rogue can pull 47 dmg with a damned crit. And even without a crit it smarts.

God, its a challenge giving them a challenge that doesn't just instantly KILL them.

godskook

How often does your ROgue "crit"?

Adam

Bad Guys! Running the Game #15

►

There's the video where Matt describes said villain, Kalarel the Vile

Haquim

the rogue? depends ... usually about 1 in 15 or so

Or when the divination wizard with his ungodly luck says so ...

godskook

Ok, so not so often that you should be planning around it.

Secespitus

12:43 PM

I feel like the easiest would be to do something you feel will be mediocre, let the PCs find a solution themselves and then let them enjoy their glorious moment. I noticed that players often find ways around challenges that you have thought of. Once you found your perfect villain someone on your table will probably outsmart you

Haquim

No, not THAT often. But it comes as a shock each tiem it happens. I mean its not like hes using a 6th level spell slot

Truth be told, secespitus, that is kind of the point.

The "villain" will set up the challenge and do his darnedest to make it impossible

Secespitus

It happens rarely and should therefore be something cool and exciting... but I may just stop at it here, I feel my style of running things is just vastly different from yours.

Haquim

but as a fair GM i have to put in some weakpoint

Adam

@Haquim Actually, swarms of monsters, for example swarms of rats, are resistant to bludgeoning, slashing, and piercing damage, period. That includes attacks from magic weapons and spells

Haquim

Really? Ok, I have to admit, I never really looked at the swarms...

godskook

12:45 PM

@Haquim, honestly, this sounds like you're dealing with a problem I've noticed with 3.5 DMs: "what qualifies as challenging".

So let me ask: The normal encounters you're throwing at your players, are they burning a reasonable amount of resources?

Secespitus

@Adam I'm not sure if that was only in sunless citadel or generally, but isn't there something like "the swarm has a 50% chance to disperse after being hit" or something like that?

Adam

@Secespitus There's no general rule that a swarm will disperse on any particular round in 5e as far as I'm aware. All instances of such things, as far as I know, are specific exceptions.

Secespitus

@Adam Okay, than I really remembered something specific. Thanks.

Haquim

@godskook thats hard to answer. Since they have apparently read "The Horus Heresy" and the "Spearhead" is their most favored tactic.

Is its not a LITERAL underground dungeon, they will find a way to confront their target AND all his mooks that are in range at once.

godskook

@Haquim Huh?

Haquim

12:48 PM

Imagine a vampire castle...

wolves, bats a dungeon, mind cntrolled minions throughout the castle halls.

godskook

I don't know what you mean by "spearhead".

Haquim

It means sending a strike team directly at the enemy command center and killing the boss as first action of combat

godskook

Gotcha.

Haquim

It would be SO nice if they were fking CAUGHT sometime

godskook

So, when they do this, how many resources are they required to expend? Also, what level and system?

Adam

12:51 PM

@Secespitus There are also examples of monsters in the Tome of Beasts (a third party supplement, but still a cool resource) of Demon Lords who have resistance or immunity from bludgeoning, piercing, and slashing damage from non-magical non-silvered weapons. That is, you need a silvered magical weapon to hurt them.

godskook

I'm assuming 5e, but want to maek sure.

Haquim

Yeah its 5e

and after that fight they are usually dead-beat

godskook

Level?

Haquim

but then its also over, so it doesn't really matter

Level is 7

And yes, they actually confronted a CR13 vampire in his lair and survived....

Adam

@Haquim If my players did that, I would just have the entire dungeon go on high alert as soon as they made it to the bad guy.

Secespitus

12:52 PM

@Adam Never heard of that book. currently I am reading "Horde of the Dragon Queen"

Shouldn't every boss have some sort of "first defense" and alarm system?

I mean, how do you become the boss if every puny adventure groups get to you without alerting anybody in your keep?

Haquim

Yes.... The but the alarm system has to beat their sneak. I can hardly put one wolf ber 20 square feet

BESW

By the time a party's done that three times, all the other villains in the area are going to be hiring body doubles.

Adam

It's basically a third party monster manual‌. It has something like 400 new monsters in it

BESW

Try a scenario where the boss isn't load-bearing?

Haquim

I like the idea, but how do the other villains take notice of that? Its not like the survivors who ran away after they killed the boss are gonna prattle about it

BESW

12:54 PM

Or the goal is something other than "kill the guys"?

Haquim

For political intrigue we use different systems, D&D is really the... combat relaxation system :D

Adam

@Haquim Alarm spells or glyphs of warding can get around that pretty effectively.

Secespitus

@Adam Cool, thanks for the tip.

Haquim

@Adam facepalm

Goddamnit

I was so focused on the MM I totally forgot about villains with standard effing class levels -.-

You are right

BESW

Or putting some silverware in a tin can over the front door.

Haquim

12:58 PM

I don't think the rogue would ever forgive me if I told him he didn't notice THAT :D

Secespitus

Normal guard dogs can be pretty good, too.

BESW

Note to self: antagonist who makes all the doors in his stronghold creak creepily, just so nobody can sneak up on him.

Haquim

.... I should come here more often when planning

Unfortunately I have to leave now, but thanks for the advice

NautArch

@BESW love it! We just had an example where someone successfully snuck all the way through a town and got to a door. When opening, he rolled a 1 (auto failure for our table). Creeeaaaakkkkkk.

Haquim

Well have fun, and a nice weekend to you guys

see ya

BESW

1:02 PM

ttfn

@NautArch Based On A True Story. I go very paranoid if I've got my back to the door, so I've got a hand mirror on my desk AND a creaky door.

nwp

Is the creaky door there mainly because the mirror doesn't work on vampires?

2

NautArch

@Adam Tome has some crazy monsters in it

@nwp I really hope the answer to that is "yes"

Secespitus

@NautArch Better safe than sorry

Adam

@NautArch It does. I've wanted to use it more, but never had the chance

T.J.L.

@nwp I was reading an interesting interpretation on mirrors, vampires, silver, and werewolves the other day. The idea was that silver was something that was considered very pure. Mirrors used to use silver, so something terrible like a vampire didn't show up in them. Same thing with old photographs - they used silver-based chemicals. Silver weapons hurt werewolves for the same reason. The rub is that modern mirrors don't use silver, they use aluminum, and modern cameras are digital.

The idea was that you'd have to deliberately seek out old mirrors and film to use them for vampire detection.

Adam

1:11 PM

I like that

Secespitus

So, basically vampires started to teach us that we can be safe with normal mirrors and cameras, but in fact that is only a false sense of security making it easier to find prey.

Damn Vampires!

BESW

I enjoyed Ultraviolet's version of vampire non-reflectivity, though as part of the series' conceit they never actually tried to explain it.

nwp

@BESW I don't remember that. How did that work?

T.J.L.

@BESW What were the conditions. I don't remember the movie that well.

BESW

Not the movie. The BBC series.

Totally different, not connected at all.

T.J.L.

1:14 PM

Still... elaborate? :)

BESW

In Ultraviolet, vampires weren't reproduced in mirrors--or cameras, or video, or digital images, or even phones.

Basically you had to experience a vampire in person.

When vampires wanted to make phone calls, they had to use text-to-voice software.

nwp

I liked True Blood's version of vampire invisibility. It's just a trick in case you need to prove that you are not a vampire. (they don't have an actual difference when it comes to being photographed or seen in a mirror)

T.J.L.

Ooh... Idris Elba. That should be worth watching.

BESW

It's jam-packed with very very good actors, some of whom Americans have heard of.

(The main character is played by the guy who did Norrington in Pirates.)

BESW

1:30 PM

(Worth noting, though, it's a low-budget 1990s BBC series. That means it's very slow by modern/American standards.)

(Not Sapphire & Steel slow, but.)

NautArch

1:55 PM

@Secespitus they clearly invented the new mirrors

i kind of want to reopen this

@SevenSidedDie can i chat with you about it?

nitsua60

2:32 PM

@Haquim Targeting: both the rogue and fighter excel at dealing damage to single targets. Make multiple targets (like someone said a few lines down) or environmental effects/monster traits that would hamper targeting. (Lighting, obscuration, invisibility....)

@Narusan Playing with other people, too. That can be a hard one to swing--we're all time-, geography-, and energy-constrained (at least!)--but it's been the most important for me. The most important GM prep I do is finding games where I can be a sit-back-laid-back player, "doing my part" and watching/interacting with the other players.

@Haquim This... seems like some goalpost-shifting. You'd started with "magic weapons make things too easy for ftr and rogue," but when the "solutions" implicate other things it's "monk ignores terrain, cleric's got sacred flame, paladin teleports." I'm losing track of what the problem is. (Or maybe we're all just drilling down to what the problem actually is?)

@Haquim They're level 7--are you following DMG encounter guidelines for difficulty? If so, and if you've got a party that's pretty-well optimized and players who're dieseling, then you may need to pretty-aggressively over-challenge (by those tables), IME. My Wednesday GM recently said that he adds eight to our party level when trying to evaluate encounters.

Also, you don't need to kill someone to make the encounter challenging. Just dropping one character to 0 can have a big effect on how the fight goes. (They're out for a round, then either they're out a second round or someone else had to divert attention from boss to get them back up.)

godskook

@nitsua60 I don't think "goal-post shifting" is too useful of an accusation in conversations that boil down to "I'm having a problem on how to run my game". Y'know, as opposed to conversations where the central point was "Magic Weapons are overpowered".

nitsua60

@BESW caretaker goes around the place spraying hinges with dirty water and hammering them slightly out of shape.

@godskook Yeah, I should have kept reading before responding--it's become clear that magic weapons isn't the problem, challenge is.

nitsua60

3:11 PM

Apropos of nothing: when I was younger a friend from undergrad and his flatmates used to host a Sunday brunch, a pretty large drop-in affair. The roster was a network of friends from high schools, colleges, graduate schools, and jobs; all were smart and curious and interesting people. Medical researchers, theologians, economists, a local politician, a hospital chaplain, a handful of physicists, the nuns who lived downstairs....

It had something of the feel of a "salon" of yore: you could drop in and, given an open mind, learn a lot. About the world, about the people there, about yourself.

I feel a lot that way about this place, and it's thanks to the people who make a habit of sharing, listening, and caring. Thanks, chatizens.

7

GreySage

So, I wanted some variety in my Drow, so I decided to make a PC and turn them into a monster. Specifically, a level 8 Drow Cleric, which various sources said should be CR 4 or 5

At the end, I realized there is a CR 8 Drow priestess in the MM, so I figured I'd compare the 2. They (coincidentally) had almost the same ability scores, and were almost the same in every way except mine had more spells, while the MM one had a strong melee attack.

I'm not sure what happened, but I figured I should bump it up to CR 6 or 7

godskook

"more spells" by CR calculations, does not necessitate a CR increase without further considerations, iirc, right?

Adam

@godskook I believe so. If a spell doesn't actually help deal damage or reduce incoming damage, then its effect on CR is pretty much negligible.

GreySage

@Adam In this case, the cleric has so many spells that I can't imagine her doing anything other than casting for 8-ish rounds

godskook

Casting -what-, would be the quesiton.

GreySage

3:23 PM

Fireball, Hold Person, Guiding Bolt (she has a fighter companion), Healing Word

Adam

Yeah, those are all things you should take into account.

If it was something like Augury or Commune, then you wouldn't have to worry about it :p

Mike Q

I've never trusted the CR calculation formula as a guaranteed indicator of difficulty. It seems more like a ballpark suggestion.

GreySage

@MikeQ I've been using a ballpark suggestion, now i want to calculate damage per round

Mike Q

DPR depends on environment

Adam

If all you want is a rough estimation, assuming a white box combat isn't the worst thing in the world. That will probably give you the worst case scenario numbers anyway

Mike Q

3:31 PM

White box? What's that?

GreySage

@MikeQ I'm not sure, so I'm assuming "people standing around hitting each other". I have a very specific purpose for this monster, so I'm imagining how combat will go where the PCs find her

Adam

It's assuming that your encounter takes place in an area with no important environmental features, where each creature in the encounter can use all of its abilities without any issue.

Imagining, the PCss walk into a white box with 4 walls, a floor and a ceiling, with nothing mechanically relevant anywhere except their own choices.

godskook

White-box combat favors the side who's abilities are least likely to be affected by environmental factors.

That's not always Team Monster.

Mike Q

White box scenario sounds like an environmental factor itself. For example, if there's nowhere to hide, a rogue's DPR will be poor without sneak attack.

Or, in a tiny featureless box, a level X barbarian could be much more dangerous than, say, a wizard of the same level.

GreySage

It seems like I have a defensive CR of 3, and an offensive CR of 7. I don't think the Priestess in the MM is correctly stated for CR 8

godskook

3:38 PM

Do you have similar defensive stats to the Priestess?

Adam

@MikeQ Perhaps, but if I was just going for a ballpark DPR estimate, I would probably use that, just because it's easy, and I just need to know if I'm going to slaughter my players or not. Plus it can help identify monster weaknesses. For example, in the vacuum of a white box, I can more easily see that my rogue monsters might need hidey holes, or the players may need cover from some devastating AOE.

Mike Q

Oh that's interesting. I've never heard of a multi-part CR before but that could be a really smart way of estimating actual challenge.

GreySage

@MikeQ That is how it suggest to calculate it in the DMG, pg 274

@godskook Almost the same, slightly more HP on mine, same AC, same defensive features (Immune to sleep, etc)

godskook

Saves are just stat-checks with "proficiency"(or not), right?

GreySage

Yeah

Adam

3:41 PM

A save and an ability check are different things in 5e.

They are calculated similarly, but getting a bonus to ability checks will not affect saving throws and vice versa

godskook

@Adam What I'm worried about is the 3.5 setup where you could have radically different base save values irregardless of Ability scores, due to class choices.

NautArch

is it worth discussing metagaming concerns on this question with the querent?

Mike Q

@NautArch What's the concern?

NautArch

@MikeQ that they're looking for information on creatures that their character may not know

TO me, it seems that type of knowledge would require a Roll by the DM to learn if they know (or ust ask the DM if they think it should be generally known)

Adam

@NautArch I think that's approaching what I would call metagame paranoia. IMO it's alright to let it slide.

Mike Q

3:45 PM

I always considered metagaming as problematic if it (directly) affects in-game decisions, rather than a character build. Unsure if other people see it that way.

NautArch

@Adam "am unsure what to expect from fey opponents" is what I was more concerned about. It's proably general enough knowledge, but knowing that the DM Is going to throw something at you and wanting to learn more about it so you can prep doesn't seem like it should be out on out of game thing.

And just because I'm paranoid doesn't mean i'm not metagaming :P

2

GreySage

@NautArch They are looking for information on Fey, when their character is designed to be good against fey. That seems like knowledge it would know.

NautArch

@GreySage Yeah, that's what I probably think, too. But in general, it does seem more like a "ask your DM" thing.

Adam

I don't mean "paranoid that this thing is metagaming when it isn't" I mean "paranoid that this potentially metagaming information will negatively affect the game" I believe there are some instances where having out of game information and using it is fine. This is one of those situations.

Mike Q

From my experience, "bad" metagaming often occurs when a PC makes a decision based on what the player knows, rather than what the PC would reasonably know.

Example: In a 5e game, the PCs encountered a new monster, and one PC altered their tactics based on the monster's special strengths and weaknesses. Not because the PC had any way of knowing - the PC's player was familiar with the monster's abilities from 3.5.

godskook

3:51 PM

@MikeQ While that's mildly annoying, I find its usually not worth dealing with, in a pve-style campaign. Adjusting the game world to lock-out metagaming is also usually far easier than regulating what PC-knowledge is character knowledge and what is player knowledge.

Adam

@MikeQ but why is that so bad?

doppelgreener

@NautArch Metagaming as a Bad Thing(tm) is a matter of opinion. (Not to say you thought it was a bad thing, but it's up to them how to handle it and value metagaming.)

4

Mike Q

Er, admittedly it's not a good example. I was trying to demonstrate the immersion-breaking of a PC suddenly becoming an expert on what should be an unfamiliar creature/situation

godskook

Or at least, lock-out the meta-gaming that DM wants to and/or should care about.

NautArch

@MikeQ and that's what this seems may be happening here. But I generally agree that it's unlikely to be an impact. HOwever, we don't know if the DM has a plan for those Fey and knowledge about them that the character isn't meant to be known is where I was going.

doppelgreener

3:52 PM

We don't really need to cover metagaming issues; answerers can broach that topic if they feel they should. That's a personal decision for them to make though.

NautArch

@doppelgreener That is very true - and I've come to learn that being here :) Different playstyles are different playstyles. And yes, it's not our job to police questions like that. Worst case is DM says "how did you know that? You don't know that" and the table moves on.

doppelgreener

@NautArch or we tell them "well they generally do X damage type" and the GM decided they all do Y damage type.

kviiri

4:39 PM

Personally, I just avoid challenges that rely on players knowing or not knowing things. It's easier that way.

GreySage

@kviiri Easiest way to avoid metagaming, make it so metagaming doesn't help

godskook

Me, to my players right now: Do you really want to argue a distinction between a door "hidden to the point of secrecy" and a "secret" door?

NautArch

5:06 PM

yeah, all of us who have DMd have generally been making changes to monsters

ran through a test-run for one of them and some cool mechanics are getting added (Driders spinngin webs behind them as they move and shambling mounds working in pairs for extra effects)

doppelgreener

5:44 PM

@BESW Coincidentally I found out in the description of Torog that the Underdark at least is definitely "under" the mortal world, since Torog dragged a whole kingdom underneath and left a great big pit in the mortal world. I'm not sure yet if the Elemental Chaos is physically underneath, so I propose a fun interpretation: it is and isn't. It's an infinite plane located entirely away from the World, and also, you get there if you go deep enough.

(Euclid would not necessarily approve.)

So cosmology-wise: infinite elemental chaos, suspended somewhere infinitely above it is the rounded World, and deep enough inside the rounded World is also the elemental chaos. The god of geometry shrugs and explains it with unhelpful references to wibbly-wobbly spacey-wacey stuff.

GreySage

@doppelgreener I would say that the Underdark is part of the mortal world. It is just a really big cave system (that happens to span the entire world)

doppelgreener

6:00 PM

@GreySage Yeah, I'd find that reasonable.

Given it's 4e we could reasonably say it is or it isn't or it sort of is and sort of isn't. :D

(and have different people in the game world argue about which one's the case)

NautArch

I've got very little knowledge of the underdark, but it's generally had a same-plane entrance in our games

kviiri

6:23 PM

@GreySage Aye :)

It's something I repeat way too often, but when we play Apocalypse World, I can narrate a location is an obvious trap, possibly lethal or worse, and embellish it to the point where it's obvious something bad will happen to the character who does enter... and someone invariably does!

NautArch

7:07 PM

@KorvinStarmast hope everything is okay for you and yours down there

nitsua60

7:27 PM

^^

and also any other Texans.

NautArch

i was down there for Katrina. We didn't get hit in College Station, but a lot of those evacuated were sent to us.

nitsua60

7:44 PM

@NautArch Are you ~~also~~ an Aggie?

godskook

@nitsua60 Wat?

nitsua60

@godskook College Station, TX is home to Texas A&M University, the "Aggies."

(And it's one of those places where if someone lived there, there's a pretty-substantial chance they're involved with the university.)

SevenSidedDie

Texas A&M Aggies

Texas A&M Aggies (variously A&M or Texas Aggies) refers to the students, graduates, and sports teams of Texas A&M University. The nickname "Aggie" was once common at land-grant or "Ag" (agriculture) schools in many states. The teams compete in Division I of NCAA sports. Texas A&M was a charter member of the Southwest Conference until its dissolution and subsequent formation of the Big 12 Conference in 1996. The Aggies competed in the Big 12 until joining the Southeastern Conference (SEC) on July 1, 2012. Texas A&M's official school colors are maroon and white. The teams are referred to as Aggies...

godskook

@nitsua60 Fair enough.

nitsua60

And NautArch and I have recently discovered some tenuous meatspace connections; if it turned out we were both Aggies that'd just keep piling the coincidences higher and deeper.

GreySage

7:54 PM

@nitsua60 Are you actually the same person?

godskook

@GreySage Nah, I've seen them both in the same chat, at the same time.

That's clearly a proof of not-sameness.

GreySage

@godskook I suppose if it's good enough for Superman, it's good enough for me

godskook

Is that the guy Clark Kent is always writing about?

NautArch

@nitsua60 baaaah. Gig 'em! WHOOOP!

nitsua60

8:36 PM

@NautArch Well, howdy.

@GreySage I don't... think so? It's a pretty deep question, though, and I'm not sure I'm really equipped to handle all it's complexities.

NautArch

@nitsua60 was there for grad school 2002-2006

Adam

8:51 PM

Welp, my game just died.

One player cant make game night anymore, and another decided she doesn't want to play anymore

NautArch

@Adam oh no :( want a EST player? :D

BESW

Luke from @Tabletop_Talk explains the basics of how to play Fate Core in 10 minutes: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UMM2xCpnAAU

Tweeted by EvilHatOfficial on August 25, 2017 at 2:45 PM

Adam

@NautArch Much appreciated, but I'm afraid I must decline

Gonna head off now to talk with everyone and see if maybe we can reschedule or work something out.

BESW

I'm looking into using Cthulhu Confidential for twosies on days only Trogdor shows up to Geek Night.

Delioth

9:13 PM

Hmm... I'm looking for some populated Play-by-post sites, anyone know any that have a decent Pathfinder community? I've already checked myth-weaver's and the tangled web, but I seem to recall many more sites than just those.

BESW

I usually see people recommending roll20 and G+ as good places to find online play communities.

godskook

giantitp has some?

Not sure how "good" but several dedicated sub-fora means its getting traffic.

doppelgreener

11:21 PM

3

A: Is the "pocket dimension" a familiar goes into a demiplane or an extradimensional space?

There is no real distinction to be made between extradimensional spaces and demiplanes — they're just different words for the same thing. Per the Dungeon Master's Guide, page 68, “demiplane” is just what extradimensional spaces of notable size are conventionally called. You'll also note that DMG ...

Plot gimmick idea: a bag that looks like a bag of holding and behaves almost just like one, but its pocket dimension is actually really big and it's a dungeon on the inside. Would explain the stone tiling you feel when you reach in for your stuff.

nitsua60

Better for a portable hole?

doppelgreener

@nitsua60 The weird surprise of it existing inside what looks like a bag of holding is part of the appeal for me. :)

"but... who would put their dungeon in a bag?"

nitsua60

I'm thinking about the playability: how are you ever going to get in? Or is this for a sprites-and-pixies campaign?

=D

Which answers the question, I suppose:

doppelgreener

@nitsua60 Aren't bags of holding plenty big enough for people to climb in?

nitsua60

@doppelgreener Capacity's fine, but I think the mouth's a problem?

doppelgreener

11:26 PM

It might be a squeeze, but you could crawl in there.

nitsua60

@doppelgreener Someone who wants to keep out firbolg and goliath PCs =)

doppelgreener

@nitsua60 Clever.

nitsua60

Plot gimmick: halfling thieves' guild in a bag of holding =)

3

@doppelgreener I do always forget that it's really a satchel of holding; I always have more of a belt-pouch in my mind's eye.

Powerdork

@nitsua60 Isn't that the handysack?

Oh, belt of many pockets.

There's way too much extradimensional storage.

nitsua60

None in my games =)

GreySage

11:29 PM

@nitsua60 It's pretty much a backpack, isn't it?

nitsua60

(Aside from spell-generated.)

Shalvenay

hey there @Powerdork

Powerdork

Eve, @Shalvenay.

nitsua60

@GreySage It's drawn like a messenger bag in the 5e DMG.

Shalvenay

how're things going?

nitsua60

11:30 PM

Or a man-purse.

(Which is an important distinction, because it's nowhere near as large as the "purses" that many women carry.)

Powerdork

Pretty upsetting knee scrape while I was out getting dinner.

Shalvenay

owww

doppelgreener

11:43 PM

@nitsua60 omg. I love it.

@nitsua60 men have pockets, so can afford a smaller purse

BESW

There's also an extradimensional belt pack that's specifically designed as a pokeball for your familiar.

doppelgreener

11:59 PM

@BESW It is done!

nitsua60

[flails unsuccessfully around for joke about you exporting marsupial-influenced Australian notions of who has pockets]
[double-checks WP on marsupials to confirm that, yes, it's the women (mainly) who have pockets]
[nearly loses dinner when stumbles across picture of marsupial young in pouches. This is not "cute Joey with head sticking out" picture, this is "OMG this thing I dropped doesn't really look ready to be alive yet, lemme shove it in a pocket and hope it doesn't suffocate on lint" picture.]

doppelgreener

7

A: What's the difference between [narration] and [narrative-techniques], should they be synonyms?

Merge them And keep the longer (aka narrative-techniques) as the synonymous one.

(status-completed)

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