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12:01 AM
My tablet's autocorrect knows "millinery."
 
etymology of millinery: the trade of someone who sells goods from Milan, then known for fancy stuff like hats -> womens' hats -> hats!
4
 
my phone's autocorrect doesn't appear to know what the word "homosexual" is
 
12:16 AM
@JohnCraven i support your phone's sexuality-indifferent attitude
 
12:29 AM
Evening, all.
 
Good eve, yes.
 
1:07 AM
@Metool Keeping warm I see
(A beanie on a helmet :D Fashionable)
 
1:19 AM
oh my god
 
P'tow, p'tow.
All the hats get.
What's that button supposed to even be, anyway?
 
@Metool Which button?
 
1:37 AM
The button on this hat.
 
1:51 AM
@Metool It's Frosty the Snowman's button-nose!
 
So an artist finds out he's colour-blind...
 
2:15 AM
@Metool ... i don't know what i'd say to that
 
@JonathanHobbs lol, so am I, that whole campaign was fun
@BESW sorry bout that
@BESW I loved that trick
that character was fun
it was also nice to have such a great complement of other characters to play him with
I actually made a character I never used, based off of the idea of doing that "fun with teleportation" idea better
 
2:46 AM
@trogdor Oh boy. I'm about to go to lunch, but you'll have to tell me about that one. :)
 
never used it, but yeah, I can at least tell you what he would have been able to do
 
3:00 AM
though, I do admit, it is a little more boring on paper than I anticipated it being if I ever used the character
 
3:46 AM
rawr
 
@trogdor that is how teleporting appears to be yes
 
yeah, it is fun
anyway, as I recall
I know it was an Eladrin Psion
and I am pretty sure I had a multiclass (warlock) feat, so I could take some of the teleport powers out of that when there wasn't a teleport option in utility for psion
what resulted was a character who could teleport at least 3 times per encounter, I think 2 times a day, and could bring allies with him for every teleport
pretty sure there were some relatively short ranged at will ones too
and a recharge mechanic for his racial power teleport
prolly off of second wind
 
oh lovely :D
 
oh, also, the racial teleport was 8 squares, every teleport was increased in range due to certain magic items, the names of which I don't remember, unfortunately
 
@trogdor belt of hide and seek
 
3:59 AM
the idea was to swap with tanks when around melee's, shuttle people to the healer when they needed it, and generally dick around with where my team was
I think there may have been even more teleports in his item dailies
 
@trogdor i would dick around with where the enemy is too given the chance
 
there was a small amount of that too
but it is much harder to get
 
like teleporting their snipers up beside the tank or wandering into bad terrain then swapping places with an enemy
 
yeah
but you would have to be sparing with that
all of that that I could find was mostly daily powers
maybe some encounters
and no feats or anything like that that let you do it with any old teleport
 
(suddenly I wonder how well a pixie warlock would work.)
 
4:06 AM
probably well
never tried it myself
 
tiny curses
 
lol
I also had in mind the Psion PP that gave you a dream version of yourself, you could cast anything from its square and also swap places with it
as a teleport
so you could do even more with that as well
 
@trogdor ... that sounds amazing
 
it does doesn't it?
I forget whether it was at will or not
but I think it was
course, it could be attacked, using your defences, and when hit it just went down, but it was summonable at will with a minor action
as I recall at least
 
@trogdor I need to look into this when i get home :D
 
4:13 AM
lol
 
Also a brief interruption, I should leave this here:
121
Q: Stack Overflow is getting a place of its own

Tiny TimWe've grown considerably as a network since the days of the original trilogy, when the prospect of growing into a network of over 100 thriving Q&A sites was a distant glimmer in a cloudy night sky. Today, Stack Overflow continues to graciously host discussions about the entire network on its extr...

 
the PP is called Dream Walker, I think
it should , at the very least, have dream in the name
 
We're getting a new Meta site for the SE network - meta.stackexchange.com - and meta.stackoverflow.com is now just going to be an ordinary meta, specifically for Stack Overflow.
2
@BESW I... I upvoted questions
I'm bad at being evil.
 
lol
 
@JonathanHobbs Not sure why that wasn't ever a thing in the first place.
Was confusing.
 
4:21 AM
@Metool Historical reasons: SO was the first meta, and so it became the entire network's meta, and then they started working on giving other sites metas.
hindsight is 20/20 etc
@trogdor is it in the PHB2/3?
 
it might be in the psionic PHB
I'll dig around till I find it
 
i think that's PHB3, right?
 
yeah
it might also be in Psionic Power
nope, not psionic power
yeah, PHP 3
ah, the dream form swap was encounter
but it was still fun sounding in any case
awesome daily power, basically a better version of the normal dream form you get
and your dream form has an encounter melee attack (the daily version does an at will one, and will cast at will stuff automatically even without you using your actions on it), for added confusion to enemies
page 96 of PHP 3
I considered the one under it for some small mechanical purposes, like teleporting on action point use
but Dreamwalker just ended up looking more fun
 
5:01 AM
@trogdor cool! :D
Sometime I should grab my group and run an accelerated 4e game
 
Zooooom.
 
as in starting at a higher level? faster exp?
 
5:13 AM
@trogdor higher level and quicker level gain, like once every 1-2 sessions
 
mm
yeah, that is what I did
for the DS campaign, for as long as that lasted at any rate
 
@trogdor which one was that?
 
the one I ran, rather than the one BESW ran
it was set in DS, which is a strange alternate universe of POL (the default setting)
the whole world turned into a desert because of the war between the Deities and the Primordials, both of whom seem to have just completely vanished
and now the different city states are ruled by godkings who use their magic to live forever, and generally take whatever is left in terms of resources for themselves
 
what's DS stand for? I am sure I've heard of it
 
meanwhile there are pionic aberations and bandits living outside the city states, so it is a privilege in itself to live inside the walls
Dark Sun
 
5:20 AM
that's the one!
wow, that sends a shiver down my spine.
is... is the sun actually dark?
and how do the divine classes work if the gods appear to have vanished? :O Do they nevertheless belong to orders which steadfastly believe in the gods who go unheard?
 
generally
you have to talk about it with your DM
there is no expectation of divine characters at all
a couple of my PC's asked me to be allowed to, and I had my reasons for accepting it
but I wasn't letting more than 2 people tops be divine
but that was just me, a DM can decide to let everyone who wants to be a divine character
 
The default is "no divine anything."
It's a post-apocalyptic D&D.
 
@JonathanHobbs The sun is huge and bright but not super-duper bright. It's a fantasy red giant.
@BESW 4e Dark Sun doesn't have templars?
 
it does
but it is only a position
it is generally an NPC thing actually
 
2e templars had spells.
 
5:27 AM
not 4E ones
 
Dark Sun was some of the most creative stuff in D&D mixed with some of the stupidest stuff.
 
it isn't a class in 4E so much as a title
 
@AlexP Oh boy. A post-apocalyptic dying world around a dying sun. That is tragically beautiful.
 
I still kinda love the 2e stuff because it's wall-to-wall Brom.
 
I had a PC who was a member of a priestly order... They worshipped Ee-yoo-un, the Great Eye, who was a mixture of half-remembered lore about Ioun, Vecna, and Pelor.
 
5:28 AM
@JonathanHobbs it is suggested that certain arcane magic users, such as the godkings, are causing it
 
I didn't actually have an divine power... I was a shaman.
 
and that killing them, or getting them to stop using defiling magic, could still fix it,.... maybe
I had some ideas of how it could play out
 
... i want to play a game in this setting.
 
I wanted to too
but I settled for running one
 
5:31 AM
Athas (the name of the Dark Sun world) is divorced from other realities.
It's hard to get to other planes.
But! Psionics run rampant.
 
D&D psionics predates Dark Sun a bit but Dark Sun is where it first got developed well as opposed to this weird throw-in.
 
I admit though, running it was very fun
 
Random peasants are likely to be able to set you on fire with their minds, and many animals have developed psionic power.
 
at least as fun as it would have been playing it as a Pc
like the iguana from hell
it was lvl 1 too,......
 
@BESW Well, the peasants aren't random. They're hard-scrabble survivors making a living in the treacherous wastes!
 
5:34 AM
that was hilarious
 
It's a fun world to think about, but not one I'm interested in for RPGs, either running or playing.
 
Some of the later 2e stuff for it is terrible. Especially when they got into the Blue Age and Preservers and stuff.
But it's also got the strongest aesthetic of any 2e setting, more so even than Planescape. And it did play well with a lot of D&D concepts.
(Often in ways that made it a natural setting for 4th Edition to revisit.)
"Everyone is a dark fantasy badass" is a thing 4e can carry pretty well.
Oh man. I just realized something.
More so than Planescape or Dark Sun.
I want to play.
Red Steel.
A total teardown and rebuild of Red Steel to clean it up and make it awesome.
But, well, Red Steel.
 
5:51 AM
@AlexP Tell me about Red Steel.
(and argh brb)
 
Okay, so Red Steel is a subsetting of Mystara. Which is from when they brought back super-old-D&D "Known World" as a 2nd Edition setting. The important part is this.
It's kinda like 17th-century stuff meets Wild West. So imagine the kinda Zorro version of Wild West with flintlocks and everything is kinda Spanish.
Also think of like, gauchos.
The other part of it is this: the Red Curse.
The whole setting is cursed. If you stay long enough in the most cursed parts, you develop a magical mutant power, basically.
Which most characters in the setting will have.
The Curse makes you a bit of a freak in that the-unlucky-side-characters-in-X-Men kind of way.
The economy and social relationship are driven by a soft red magical metal, which alleviates the hindrances associated with your magic mutant power but also makes it stronger. Anyone who has money has a constant supply, worn as amulets &c. It "depletes" over time, turning into "red steel."
So you need to keep getting more.
It really wasn't the most brilliant thing ever.
It's kind of a side part to a second-tier setting.
But some of the characters you could make with it were very evocative. Not just because you got magic mutant powers but because it was all swashbucklers and gauchos and Honorbound paladin sheriffs and Inheritors.
(Oh, the other benefit of the red metal stuff is you can use it to make gunpowder. Because of all the guns.)
The periphery of the setting also had, like, scorpionfolk and samurai cat people or something. I forget.
There's the kernel of some really fun "New World" fantasy in there, complete with a couple of useful metaphors about class privilege, waiting to be polished off.
^ Mouthful. :)
 
6:11 AM
@AlexP do i understand correctly that if your mutant power gets stronger, its hindrances also get worse, so that the more red metal you've gone through the more badly you need it?
and that the red metal thing would be expendable in the polishing process? c(:
 
6:28 AM
heyo @Lord_Gareth.
 
Word
 
Why are you not changing your avatar?
 
Never learned how, never developed a damn to give about it either.
Why do you ask?
 
6:43 AM
@Lord_Gareth Profile -> edit -> click on your avatar
 
@JonathanHobbs I think the basic rules for it were fairly simple. Everyone burns the, erm, cynnabril at a fixed amount. Ounce a week. It's just that if you've ever used it, the consequences of going off it are worse than never using it. Exceeeept! Inheritors! Inheritors load themselves up with multiple powers thanks to the curse. Power after power after power. IIRC they burn faster but, more importantly, smokepowder explosions nearby count as weeks of cynnabril loss.
Or they experience weeks of cursed transformation in minutes.
 
Now if I could only find a damn to give about my avvie that'd be great.
 
@Lord_Gareth i think it looks lovely in that bow
 
@Lord_Gareth I think we're avatar brothers now.
With the bow and everything.
 
@AlexP does the weeks of cynnabril loss / weeks of cursed transformation = sudden onset of major withdrawal symptoms, or sudden strengthening of curse powers?
 
6:50 AM
@JonathanHobbs You become a terrible monster. I mean, still human.
So, like, the powers.
You might have a power to elongate your nails and shoot them like spikes.
If you're not on the cynnabril, you also just have terrible monster-claw nails all the time, which are inconvenient.
I don't remember all the details.
 
All those traumatizing years of playing FR under wretched DMs have finally paid off
In extending the pain of others >.>
 
I would keep this image around for when our power goes out suddenly, but I think there's a flaw in the plan.
 
I know bits of FR canon from playing the games, bits from reading the campaign setting books, and bits from having been places on the Internet. Some of those last bits are... extraordinary.
In a bad way. A very, very bad way.
 
In a 'what has been seen can never be un-seen' kind of way?
 
@Lord_Gareth Sorta, yeah. Ed Greenwood's personal canon, so to speak.
 
6:57 AM
Yeah...
I lost a lot of respect for him just reading his work.
 
There's an archive of his posts about, erm, whatsherface. Alustriel?
 
I lost even more when he revealed that Ao's boss (the 'Golden Light' in the Avatar cycle) is/was the Christian God
Who evidently just craps out overdeities to oversee sadistic justice-free realities for the lols in GreenWorld\
 
So, there's this post. It's about five paragraphs of blah-blah-blah courtly love and orgies and he is sad he couldn't put it in the campaign guide.
Then this quote, which is the bestest part:
> The original Mystra seemed to encourage Alustriel to have children (why? Hoho! SO many mysteries, waved before you!), because she conceived every nine months and a day or two, giving Faerun a succession of healthy males in a series of easy births (and being little constricted or uncomfortable while pregnant, because rather than acquiring a ballooning belly, the High Lady always put on weight all over, and retained her poise, balance, and activities).
Ask yourself: how does that even work?
 
Edit'd sources such as they are into my answer.
 
7:05 AM
@Lord_Gareth technically if you have no candle you just have a whole lot of shadows ;D
 
@JonathanHobbs - There's an interesting thematic and cultural difference between 'darkness' and 'shadows'. Garth Nix explored it brilliantly in his Seventh Tower series.
Shadows are defined by the presence of light. They, as outlines of darkness, cannot exist without a light to define them.
Without the candle they simple are not.
 
Think about Plato's cave metaphor, for instance. (Or don't, because it can be tedious.) ;)
 
It's why in the aforementioned series Shadowguards and Spiritshadows can't cross into or through areas of darkness
Bereft of the light that sustains them, they die, taking a piece of their owner's soul with them.
 
Ok, that makes sense. :D
 
Incidentally, drop whatever you're doing and go read that whole series right now. All seven books are maybe equal in length to 1&1/2 George R.R. Martin books
The story is incredible and the worldbuilding is deft, fascinating, magical, and plausible.
Also it invented Yu-Gi-Oh more than a decade before Yu-Gi-Oh did.
 
7:15 AM
@Lord_Gareth Wait, what? Seventh Tower is from 2000-ish and Yu-Gi-Oh started in the mid 90s.
Also Yu-Gi-Oh is totally just Magic: the Gathering but the protagonist is a rules-bullshitter and cheater because it's more exciting that way. >.>
 
@AlexP - Yu-Gi-Oh didn't start until I was in middle school in the early 2000's
And I read 7th Tower in the second friggin' grade
 
The Fall is the first book in Garth Nix's The Seventh Tower series, published in 2000 by Scholastic. It tells the story of Tal, a boy who lives in a world with eternal darkness. His home is a Castle with seven towers. The cover design and art are by Madalina Stefan and Steve Rawlings respectively. Prologue Tal, a young Chosen boy, is climbing the Red Tower with his shadowguard to steal a Sunstone. He reaches just below the Veil when he hears a cry far below. For a moment, Tal thinks he has been caught, only to realize the scream was from his little brother, who has secretly followed ...
That's the story, right?
 
<.<
[Shoots the witness]
I was never wrong.
 
Also, holy crap, Ed Greenwood is only 54 years old. I thought he was at least 45 years old back in 1990 or whenever "Grey Box" FR was first written.
 
7:31 AM
RPGs are like mathematics.
 
People who study them get laid later in life than athletes?
 
It's a young person's profession: if you haven't done something groundbreaking before you're 30, nobody expects you to.
(And on the other hand, if you do achieve something remarkable when you're young, you're doted on for decades.)
 
Hmm. I don't think RPG industry darlings work in quite the same way.
 
8:42 AM
Sorry for the huge post there
I was working on it during the aforementioned tedious combat ... on top of which my internet kept going out tonight
I don't have a lot of time to chat, I have work in the morning and should have gone to sleep like 2 hours ago
I was kind of hoping to put it out there and see what kind of responses I got back, but you're right, this does seem more suited to a forum or chatroom
(this is all @BESW )
 
@Corion Thanks for the ping, I was on another screen.
If they really want to be invincible... let them be.
They'll have fun, and then get bored.
 
I just never thought I would start getting burnt out from my players making the game more boring
and it seems like the players are getting burnt out too
 
Once they know what invincibility is like, the "new toy" smell will wear off and they'll be more willing to explore failure.
 
I guess so
 
The most important thing is to make sure there's a dialogue.
Happily you started off with the Same Page Tool, so there's a precedent for this.
You may also want to suggest a different system.
 
8:46 AM
yeah, I dont know that I have time to learn it
 
There are much simpler systems.
 
I've invested a lot of time and effort into 4e, and I know everyone who knows better kind of hates it
 
@Corion Psh. 4e is my favorite D&D edition.
 
heh
maybe it would be more fun with a different group
 
But it's tailored for a very specific kind of experience.
 
8:47 AM
right now it's like 4 rounds of combat take 2.5 hours
 
Fate Accelerated is 50 pages. You can learn it in a couple hours.
 
and most of it is arguing and doing totally OOC team and meta-level strategizing
 
Roll For Shoes is seven bullet points. You can learn it in five minutes.
 
which I cant get them to cut down on and just try to act like their characters
part of the problem is one of the players is roleplay-averse
he just wants to kill stuff and get loot
 
It's totally legit to tell them you're burnt out and need a break to experiment with other systems, to reset your creativity.
 
8:48 AM
yeah. well, I mean I had plans for everything we wanted to do, and their characters, to draw them in
we've just done one campaign
 
@Corion You can still go back to it.
Heck, @JonathanHobbs here has switched from 4e to Fate mid-campaign.
 
we started with red box, went into the 4e dm kit adventures for Reavers of Harken valley and then Cairn of the winter king
and then I took over as DM and ran Gardmore Abbey, which in hindsight we all kind of regret
because nobody cared about the open-ness of it. they just want to dungeon-clear systematically and skip all the story bits
 
@Corion 4e is fun to role-play in, but its mechanics don't force difficult choices the way some systems do. 4e is about mythic heroes who succeed with minimal sacrifice.
 
which is mind-numbing for me when all of the NPC's are disabled or can't hit the broad side of a d20
 
If you want to challenge them (and they're okay with it) within the rule set, use the MM3 and L1E links in the answers.
 
8:51 AM
I need like
 
@Corion We've got some good questions and answers about speeding up combat, too.
 
a second same page tool
for "how are things going" survey
and what can we do different
TBH that question started off mainly about that one cloak
 
@Corion I call it "socializing before the game starts" and "asking what they liked at the end of the night."
 
but as I started writing I realized the problem went much deeper
@BESW Yeah. Well we mostly use the 5 or so hours we have set-aside each week to tediously grind through 2 encounters
and then we're all too worn out to talk about it afterwards
 
@Corion Been there.
 
8:53 AM
@BESW And they all seem to realize that it takes too long, that it's too boring, but then they still argue like ... the card mechanics the NPC's use in the villain fights of gardmore abbey - which have special rules that I have repeatedly said "they use special rules"
literally took 5 minutes of game time when just one card was used tonight, then they complained that my turn was taking too long but 95% of it was them arguing with me
 
4e is a rules-heavy game that requires detailed and careful understanding of those rules in order to make it work. (Unlike 3.5, which has more rules but they're so messy that a handful of misinterpretations makes little difference.)
You're the GM. That means you have a responsibility to the players to help them have fun... and if you're not having fun, that's going to come through and impact their fun.
You're a participant the same as they are.
 
"the dude hits. You are restrained you and slide 6 squares" "You can't slide when restrained!" "that's what the power says." "Does it say you're restrained before or after?" ... i just ... i dont know how to handle these situations
 
You can ask if they're getting bored with the long encounters whose outcomes are already known, but you can also just tell them you can't do it anymore.
@Corion We've got questions about that, too.
I'm lucky, in that my players trusted me to make the mid-combat decisions based on what would be coolest.
 
I mean it's not about mechanics. its more about how combative they are about my every action, they want to turn the enemy's turns and abilities into round-table discussions and then complain when it takes 5 minutes
 
We agreed that the GM would make the immediate call, but that it wouldn't set any precedent and we'd figure out the exact rule later when it wasn't the middle of a conflict.
@Corion M'rr. I see.
 
8:58 AM
"I'm the DM, I make the call" "That's what the power says" these do not work to end the discussion
 
So you need to talk with them out of the game. Preferably at a time outside usual game time.
 
yeah
 
Sit 'em down for tea or whatever, and say this stuff. Nicely.
You're interested in making this fun for them, and it looks like they aren't having fun. Neither are you.
 
I try to get them to see that they've never even risked like ... falling unconscious even, that if the enemy gets to use their powers as written and/or intended, then it's not the end of their little worlds
 
Present to them the dilemma: they want faster combat, but they want more of a say in what happens during the combat.
 

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