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3:00 PM
@avirk I don't remember that O_o
Hmmm
 
@r.tanner.f OK then find it now for me :P
 
haha
 
@Bibhas: got an irc server on mine ;p
 
@r.tanner.f bad thing :P
 
That's a tough one; I'm not even sure where to start.
 
3:02 PM
I'm just 50 click away from my 2nd gold :D
@r.tanner.f dude you are a command line guy you should have to know ;)
 
@avirk That was actually my first attempt at PowerShell =D I tend to learn more if I write it down... lol
 
@r.tanner.f lol
 
Anyone here handy with PowerShell?
 
@r.tanner.f I don't think so here is anyone right now :P
 
Bob
 
3:09 PM
I'll try ti find out the tutorial for it now :)
@jokerdino he is not here right now :P
 
yeah
 
@r.tanner.f I think youtube will be good start :)
 
had to go against my better judgement and upgrade to Win 8
now driver problem is screwing me up
 
@r.tanner.f handy enough with powershell to treat it like a .NET scripting language... very handy with .NET
@Sathya TRWTF is upgrading to Windows 8... if you didn't do a clean install, don't say I didn't warn ya ;P
 
@Sathya all drivers or just few one?
 
3:17 PM
my hybrid IGP GPU drivers
seems there's a segfault
=====================================================
Time of exception:	11/05/12 20:45:36
Exception code: C0000005 ACCESS_VIOLATION
Fault address:  513F54EE 01:000844EE C:\WINDOWS\WinSxS\amd64_microsoft.vc80.mfc_1fc8b3b9a1e18e3b_8.0.50727.1833_none_8442d417329336b1\MFC80U.DLL
 
@allquixotic Is the upgrade pretty messy?
 
@allquixotic well everything's gone fine.. except for my GPU drivers
which well, I need to blame HP I guess for not releasing an updated one
 
@r.tanner.f upgrading without doing a clean install is complete fail if you have any non-trivial programs installed
probability of something installed that breaks the upgrade that isn't detected by the compatibility assistant thing increases with the age of your Win7 install and reaches approximately "1" (guaranteed) after about 2 years' old install
 
my experience as has been otherwise, I have a metric ton of apps installed
 
3:21 PM
I've had the upgrade fail on three computers, and failed to roll back to win7 and left me with an unbootable system on one of the three
 
@avirk inf style is for like ancient stuff. doesn't work
 
but then I install things like multiple virtualization programs, wireshark, visual studio, multiple versions of sql server and java, steam, origin, etc
@Sathya what is your IGP?
 
@allquixotic Intel HD + AMD 5650
 
@allquixotic lol. thats pretty neat
 
hmm... which "Intel HD"? Sandy or Ivy?
or even older?
 
3:23 PM
@allquixotic even older
 
@JourneymanGeek yeah, just commenting that you can pretty easily abstract away from registry/INF/whateverelse with a class in Qt4
 
@Sathya uhm, I'm not sure, but I don't think Intel has (yet?) released a WDDM 1.2 driver for older than Sandy Bridge graphics, so you'll probably be stuck with WDDM 1.1 running in compatibility mode (if it works at all)
ah, device manager confirms my suspicions :P
 
@allquixotic oh Intel's stuff works fine. AMD's causing the problems
 
@allquixotic: well. ya. But the question in question was something I wasn't planning on answering ;p
 
3:24 PM
might be some weirdness because you're mixing and matching WDDM 1.1 and 1.2
 
can't use my second (big screen)
 
obvious: did you try latest Catalyst package for your AMD? HD5000 series is still officially supported, unlike HD4000
 
ugh, why are people even answering this? superuser.com/questions/499991/…
 
last time it didn't work due to the hybrid nonsense
lemme try
 
people with a ridiculous amount of rep are answering that too @journeymangeek, i don't get it
 
3:26 PM
I know, right?
 
@allquixotic HD400 not supported in ...?
 
ah bollocks
this is why it failed under win 7
and now too
 
@r.tanner.f Radeon HD4000 is not supported in Windows 8, AFAIK. It isn't supported in Windows 7, either. All Radeon HD4000 and earlier cards are completely unsupported by AMD. The only driver updates you'll ever see for them are likely to be security fixes, if that.
They say they will supposedly push updates as requested by their big dollar customers, but so far there's been very little
AMD lost a lot of engineers in the Catalyst team so they dropped support for cards that were still being sold in new laptops at retail outlets in 2011... it's cool, yo, we don't need no stinkin' drivers (sarcasm)
 
@allquixotic So is an HD 4250 supported?
 
@r.tanner.f No
 
3:29 PM
This explains much :)
 
you might get lucky and be able to run the WDDM 1.1 driver on Win8, but it may have reduced performance or features
WDDM 1.1 drivers are supposed to work on Win8 by design, but there's a reason that WDDM 1.2 exists... performance / stability / features / whatever
so supporting older is a hack
it's sad because a lot of laptops apparently sold with HD4000 based processor/APU graphics and HD6000 or HD5000 based discrete GPU
and now people complain that they can't get the IGP working
well duh people; AMD dropped support for that entire ASIC generation
and did so quite a while prior to the release of Win8
 
@Sathya Then I think you have to wait for the updated version of drivers.
 
It's kind of weird because I see a lot of HD 4000's
 
fml.
I don't thin there's going to be an update any time soon
 
or wait... maybe mine is a 5450? I'll have to double check.
 
3:32 PM
@Sathya there will be :) the HD5000 generation is still under official support and is actively being improved and developed for
you should see approximately monthly or bi-monthly updates
with feature additions, bugfixes and more
 
@allquixotic considering HP is the one who does the updates, and consdering there hasn;t been an update since 2010
I doubt
 
well... if your hybrid graphics solution has some kind of special sauce that makes it not work with drivers directly from Intel and AMD, then yeah, you're probably pretty hosed
system integrators are known for being extremely sloppy and irresponsible with not supporting their hardware in the long run
 
yeah
 
it's not only HP but everyone... a year or a year and a half is all you get
 
the reason why I went ahead with the upgrade was because the drivers installed fine in RP
now, the install is throwing these access violations
 
3:34 PM
@Sathya Windows 8 has a requirement for WDDM1.2 driver signing for graphics, that's the only real reason you need separate drivers. from here
 
oh well; that just means that unsupported hardware works infinity% faster on Linux than it does on Windows :D (since the open source graphics drivers support all the way back to ATI Rage chips, and HD4000 generation is often faster than Catalyst itself)
 
I am getting so pissed off at work... My computer is working fine for day to day stuff, but, whenever it is at the lock screen, I can come back to my machine and it usually has restarted... if I am logged in remotely, it can also restart - so, it is something about having the login screen locally
 
@avirk drivers are WDDM 1.2 compatible.
 
... I thought maybe dodgy power - but, it doesn't explain why it only restarts at lock/log in screen... so, I installed a UPS but same thing happened.
 
@Sathya those "access violations" in MFC seems like a low level bug, maybe a version issue with Visual C++ Runtime, definitely not kernel related
 
3:35 PM
it is driving me mad - anyone else seen something similar?
(thinking of opening a question)
 
@allquixotic yes, need to figure out what to do to get around that :|
 
@WilliamHilsum Evil coworker?
 
@Sathya well first you need to figure out what version is actually being loaded... it's probably being taken from side by side configuration
 
yep, that it is
 
@r.tanner.f haha - it does it at the weekend and when I connect in remotely/no one here... I just don't get it
 
3:37 PM
@WilliamHilsum Yeah I've seen something similar, the fix will make you roll on the floor giggling and eating dust bunnies
 
> 513FA2E2 0013BA40 0001:000892E2 C:\WINDOWS\WinSxS\amd64_microsoft.vc80.mfc_1fc8b3b9a1e18e3b_8.0.50727.1833_none_‌​8442d417329336b1\MFC80U.DLL
 
@allquixotic what is it!? So far, I am thinking virus or dodgy PSU now :/
 
@WilliamHilsum That's a pretty bizarre one. Maybe Windows update is being weird, or a virus
 
@Sathya okay, so it's Visual Studio version "80" which IIRC is 2005?
 
@allquixotic yes
 
3:37 PM
@r.tanner.f I hope not...
 
I've reached till here
 
@WilliamHilsum We removed the Nvidia discrete GPU and ran it off the Intel IGP and it fixed the problem. Yes. "Have bug; remove card".
 
driving me bonkers
 
@allquixotic Seriously? Graphics card did it?
 
@Sathya did you explicitly install all VS2005 service pack downloads for 64-bit?
 
3:38 PM
only using embedded
 
@r.tanner.f yep, Nvidia NVS 200-something
 
@WilliamHilsum Get your soldering iron out then :P
 
@allquixotic no clue, like I said, this has been a win 7 install since ages
 
check your add/remove progs
 
@r.tanner.f lol
 
3:39 PM
@WilliamHilsum That's weird. Does the power just cut or does it shut down?
 
uninstall all your VS 2005 redistributables
i think win8 should ship good versions out of the box
 
omfgggggg
so many... uninstall the 2005s
 
@r.tanner.f I don't know, I never see it happen
 
actually you could probably get away with uninstalling most or all of those redistributables
 
3:40 PM
I go away (toilet, lunch, anything) and I press windows key + l... get back, and I am no longer logged in/everything shut!
 
@allquixotic removing..
 
when MS releases a new operating system they ship all the old side by side DLLs
 
so, it is as if the machine has had a full on reboot
 
they should come out of the box
 
but, I can work solidly all day and nothing - it is ONLY at lock screen
 
3:41 PM
if you get an error when trying to run the driver after that then it should be something like it can't find the file or the side by side configuration is incorrect
if you get that then you can start reinstalling only the latest version of the redistribs until you hit gold
@WilliamHilsum sounds stupid but do you have the latest drivers for your mobo and GPU?
sounds like an ACPI issue... what I'd do is lock your screen then sit there and watch it and I'll bet you a $5 game on Steam that it BSODs when it puts the monitor to sleep
probably reading bad info from DSDT or some shit
 
@Sathya i also have that many. safe to remove?
 
brb reboot.
 
@jokerdino on win8 you really don't need them, but some program installers will force them upon you anyway... generally it's pointless to have older versions of them though, you really only need the latest because it ships the older versions too in SxS for backwards compatibility
 
i am on win 7
 
@allquixotic No, but, My machine has been fine for the past 4-5 months (when I rebuilt it), this has just started in the last week and I haven't done any updates
 
3:45 PM
oh... well you should probably keep them
 
Who'll win the 200th shirt? :D win8challenge.com
 
blah. okay
 
@allquixotic but does sound very likely... I'll check for updates (not wanting to do a bet!)
 
@WilliamHilsum next step if that doesn't work is to turn on kernel crash dumps and check for them when the system comes back up
 
@allquixotic Ok... Turn off display is set to 15 minutes... I'll try disabling that - now you say it, I have been having a bad connection to my monitor (via HDMI to DVI adapter) - I have had to shake it a bit and vibrations make it go bad (waiting for new one to arrive)... Technically, I don't see why it should cause a reboot, but... bloody computers... maybe that is it!
I hope this is correct, and if it is, thanks so much!
 
3:47 PM
doesn't hurt to eat some power (keep monitor on) to keep system from rebooting
 
@allquixotic I always turn my screens off when I am not here - if a crash is happening sending the screen to sleep... I may as well just disable it!
 
that might be the fix... stupid buggy driver could do something like:
(1) wait 15 minutes to turn off display
(2) time to turn off the display
(3) WTF THE DISPLAY DOESN'T EXIST?!?!?
(4) BSOD
 
@allquixotic BSOD no more on WIN 8 :P
 
@avirk yeah but the term will survive until well after Win8, Win9, Win10, etc... even when the new BSOD screen is a picture of Steve Ballmer crying and the system boots a recovery kernel to play rickroll on youtube to let you know that your system crashed
it'll still be a BSOD
even if it's a RROD (Rick Roll of Death)
 
@allquixotic that will be one heck of a funny BSOD!
 
3:51 PM
speaking of which, i totally need to do that with kexec() on Linux
save a swf of rickroll
 
@allquixotic Actually if the RROD was implemented I'm pretty sure it would mean the death of BSOD.
 
kexec into recovery kernel
 
@allquixotic I think they have give it a name Black Screen Of Death
 
boot script: start up X with framebuffer driver; play SWF with gnash
@TomWijsman likes kexec() so I'm sure he'd be all over that recovery kernel :D
 
=====================================================
Time of exception:	11/05/12 21:22:49
Exception code: C0000005 ACCESS_VIOLATION
Fault address:  60A554EE 01:000844EE C:\WINDOWS\WinSxS\amd64_microsoft.vc80.mfc_1fc8b3b9a1e18e3b_8.0.50727.1833_none_8442d417329336b1\MFC80U.DLL
sob
 
3:55 PM
@Sathya do you have any way of knowing which parent module (process / executable / image name) it occurred in?
was it MOM.EXE (Catalyst monitor) or similar?
 
it was installerapp, iirc
 
weird... that's in the installer?
 
InstallManagerApp
I think that does a call to rundll etc
I just removed the 2005 ones
the 2008, 2010 ones are still there
@allquixotic here's the full log paste.ubuntu.com/1335028
 
4:10 PM
@Sathya try running in win vista or win7 compat mode?
that affects SxS behavior IIRC
 
@allquixotic installed this, now the install proceeds archive.msdn.microsoft.com/KB961894/Release/…
still no payload.
something better than nothing.
let me remove the built in drivers
woohoo! finally!
... or not :(
 
@avirk thanks. :)
 
@Bibhas anything meets to your budget?
 
@avrik The one from belkin is priced $22 in Amazon, but in indian sites it's about $70
 
4:24 PM
@Sathya ManagerApp? Lame. You're the ManagerApp, didn't you know?
 
@allquixotic does .net framework carry a C# compiler?
@Bibhas dude Indian Govt. is much rely on Texes :P
 
@avirk Yes
 
@OliverSalzburg yup! then I don't need to VS now I just have to set the path right?
 
@avirk Well... not really :D
Just because it contains a compiler doesn't mean you don't need an IDE
 
0
A: Does Windows 8 include the Windows Help program (WinHlp32.exe)?

avirkYes it does! You can find it under C:\Windows\winhlp32.exe Its size is ~11kb and there is winhlp32.mui.exe in the following path separately whose size is 3kb only. C:\Windows\WinSxS\x86_microsoft-windows-winhstb.resources_31bf3856ad364e35_6.2.9200.16384_en-us_cf05e380ff44d465 The...

 
4:28 PM
And I'm not sure if the compiler even has a binary you could use to compile directly
 
finally Moab could figure out there what I'm saying and he make an answer of that :P
@OliverSalzburg hmmm that could be a problem.
 
@avirk Why not simply get Visual Studio C# Express or something?
 
@OliverSalzburg I have that :P
Just don't want to install it on machine right now:D
 
@avirk The compiler is available through csc.exe. Possibly located at C:\Windows\Microsoft.NET\Framework\v4.0.30319
Seems like it also contains msbuild.exe so you may be able to directly compile your existing projects easily
 
@OliverSalzburg with all .net framework it will available as I have .net 2.0/3.5/4.0 so it is there with per .net folder :P
 
4:32 PM
1
A: Recover gmail password from iphone or phone number?

anitaU want to add my gmail address to this new phone i had my gmail address in a iphone

 
@OliverSalzburg interseting :)
 
why would anyone want to upvote this crap?
 
@Sathya MUST GET REVIEW BADGE!!!
 
@Sathya lol
 
@avirk msbuild.exe "My Project.csproj" simply compiles the project just like it would in VS
 
4:33 PM
@OliverSalzburg good to know :)
 
there's no easy way to undo a Win 8 install, is there?
 
@avirk the only time the compiler isn't available is if you have the Client Profile of .NET installed; if you have the "full" profile then you get the compiler, so all you need is a good IDE like SharpDevelop or MonoDevelop, or just use msbuild / csc.exe directly
@Sathya if you have a system restore checkpoint or entire disk image of win7 from backups then yes, otherwise, no... the rollback feature IIRC only works if the upgrade fails during setup
 
crap
should've upgraded the RP partition
 
@allquixotic I never used SharpDevelop or MonoDevelop, are they free?
 
don't like win8? :P
@avirk yes and yes
free and open source
 
4:39 PM
@allquixotic I'll like to use them once :)
 
the MonoDevelop project can either run on the Mono framework (which doesn't require any installation; you can just download the binaries and run it) or on top of the .NET framework
SharpDevelop AFAIK is programmed to run with the .NET framework and not really tested on mono
but mono is pretty cool in that you don't have to carry around all the ugly trappings of a .NET install, all you need is the ability to download and execute EXEs and you've got a fully working .NET programming / development / execution environment, even if system doesn't have .NET framework
 
@allquixotic Mono develop isn't, IIRC
 
@Sathya uh? MonoDevelop most certainly is free and open source.
 
@allquixotic Oo grat one :)
 
4:42 PM
oops, I think I mixed it with the mobile one
@allquixotic with my main big screen not working, I can't do jack
 
@avirk :(
 
@Sathya But Windows 8 is supposed to run on any computer that Windows 7 will run on! =O
 
supposedly
 
Could it be... lies? False advertising? An OS that was released unfinished? Improper coordination with IHVs? The horror!
 
LOL
 
4:44 PM
In other words, business as usual for MSFT
 
Bob
@allquixotic SharpDevelop 4.x won't run on mono
it's WPF based, and last I checked mono didn't have WPF support
 
@Bob yeah, I had something in my brain's swap, just on the verge of being evicted, about mono not working that well with sharpdevelop
and it was that
 
Bob
lol
The 3.x WinForms versions should be fine
 
but sharpdev is a fork of an old monodevelop... why use that :P
 
Bob
iunno
I like SD 4.x. MD... not so much
 
4:51 PM
@Bob downloading SD 4.x ~19MB
 
too bad windows still doesn't have a builtin native compiler... every other OS does
pretty crazy
 
@allquixotic poor Window :)
@allquixotic thats why I'm looking for Door OS now :D
 
@avirk who needs Windows and Gates anyway, escape from behind them to freedom
 
@allquixotic Given that it comes with the .NET Framework, it does have a built-in compiler, doesn't it?
 
@allquixotic linux :)
 
5:04 PM
@OliverSalzburg I said native; also, I think the default is the client profile, which does NOT include any compilers
 
@allquixotic I see
 
C# isn't native... that's MSIL... which looks native because it says ".exe" but really it isn't because it's interpreted binaries that depends on .NET assemblies rather than x86 machine code
 
@allquixotic Thanks for explaining that to me ;P
 
you have to get Visual Studio C++ or MinGW to get a native compiler to emit x86 machine code (or ARM, for that matter)
the .NET executables and DLLs actually run "natively" on Mono on non-Windows platforms... it's weird because you can wire up a custom handler to the dynamic loader and type ./binary.exe on Linux and it'll wrap it in Mono, and natively execute an .exe depending on .dlls on Linux
not so for x86 native code in the Win32/PE format
because that depends on the Win32 API which is not available on non-Windows platforms
 
@allquixotic IIRC Ubuntu does that automatically when installing Mono. I was a bit surprised when I accidentally used it for the first time :D
 
5:08 PM
@OliverSalzburg no, Ubuntu doesn't do that for .NET; it does it with wine
 
Bob
ok
3 routers
my preferred router won't connect
another one disconnects every couple of minutes
I hope this last one works :\
 
there's actually a bit of conflict there because you have to use a utility that can distinguish between Win32/PE executables and PE/MSIL executables in order to send native code to wine and MSIL to mono... you can't just go on the file extension
unless you want to run mono or the .NET framework in wine, which is weird
wtf is going on with chat
 
@allquixotic ?
 
timing out on me every message
 
@allquixotic sometime same happen with me :)
 
5:11 PM
@allquixotic All I know is that I can execute .NET binaries on our Ubuntu systems by simply invoking ./awesome.exe and I've never set up anything to achieve it. So I assumed it's done by default with the installation
 
@OliverSalzburg weird, I thought the default was for wine to do that
maybe they already solved that problem
it gets freaky though because with P/Invoke or certain compiler flags, you can embed native Windows code in an otherwise clean MSIL executable or assembly, which ties it to the Windows platform
so you'd really have to look kind of "deep" into the file format to determine whether to run it in the .NET framework on top of wine (for native code bits or P/Invoke) or on the native mono framework on linux without wine (for pure MSIL code)
that's actually a really good idea if it hasn't been done already: collaboration between wine and mono projects... write one unified executable loader
executable loader relies on a library that analyses the executable to determine whether it's (a) just win32 code, (b) MSIL and win32, or (c) just pure MSIL with no platform dependency, or P/Invokes to native Linux
 
didn't work...more idea? — wurlog 28 mins ago
 
in case (a), run it in wine; in case (b), run it in mono on top of wine (and ship mono default embedded in wine distribution); in case (c), run it in mono
 
0
Q: How to install Windows 7 on Samsung NP530U3B?

wurlogI purchased a new notebook and I'm trying to reinstall Windows. I could start the installation once via external USB DVD Drive. I deleted the old partitions and had to reboot. After that the computer will not boot from the external USB Drive. I also tried the transfer the image to USB stick. Stil...

 
Bob
@allquixotic Alternatively, the mono migration tool
 
5:19 PM
can some1 help him I'm going to rest now so can't :(
 
@Bob I'm actually twice as sadface as Microsoft themselves that more games aren't written in .NET, because the portability story would be a lot better (unless they use DirectX, blah)
thing is, they tried (...oh my god did they try; they tried all the time, in this institution...) and people still didn't want to program games in .NET
 
@allquixotic Why?
 
@r.tanner.f in a word? (two...)
Garbage Collection
game programming or almost anything else with a lot of real time updates and events produces a lot of heap garbage, and garbage collectors are pathetically slow
it's just so much easier to set up a static location for all the game data in memory and continuously bang on those memory addresses rather than having them jump all around all the time and have the heap allocator going nuts trying to size everything up and manage fragments and ugh
easier in terms of performance cost, not design ease
heap allocators are slow; garbage collection routines are slow; combining very frequent heap allocations and very frequent garbage collection as you have to do in most real-time software, and you get fail
you notice it less in throughput computing (server-side, for instance) because you don't have a 16.67 millisecond deadline for pumping through another frame (assuming 60 fps) like you do in real time rendering
 
so .NET just has a hard time keeping up with it?
 
heap allocators and garbage collectors very often have to suspend all threads in the application, and for a very dirty virtual address space can exhibit runtimes on the scale of 250 to 1500 milliseconds
that's way more than the deadline of 16.67 milliseconds to keep consistent 60 fps performance
so you end up with "stuttery" performance
 
5:32 PM
I have heard the same problem description from a friend who does real time fruit sorting. (hardrealtime)
 
@r.tanner.f think of the two memory management strategies in terms of doing laundry
 
unpredictable garbage collection is bad
 
a traditional C/C++ approach involves keeping all your clothes nice and neat, folded, and in drawers... when you use them, you wash them and put them right back in the same place in the same drawer
garbage collection a la virtual machines (python, ruby, .NET, java, etc) involves throwing your laundry in a pile when they're dirty, and then when you wash them you just throw them back in whichever place they fit in in whatever drawer
in terms of understanding the underlying CPU instructions, it's extremely educational for you to write a simple C/C++ program that does heap allocation (e.g. malloc()) and run it in a debugger and step through the C runtime's instructions for allocating a simple block of memory
do the same for a naive Boehm garbage collection implementation and you can see how this can take dizzying amounts of time
the way "low level" C/C++ programs work is, they do allocate memory on the heap, but they do it once at program startup
and they just re-use the existing, already allocated memory hunks to store different data in, as the data changes
but memory managed runtimes like .NET constantly re-allocate everything
moving it around in memory, like scrambling the pieces to a puzzle
 
@allquixotic What's the advantage to that?
 
@r.tanner.f the advantage of automatic memory management is that the programmer doesn't have to keep track of the lifecycle of data they allocate
 
5:36 PM
ahhh
 
the space for memory that the programmer requests is automatically handled both in terms of making space in memory for the data, and also for removing the data when no longer needed
the heap allocator takes care of making the space, and the garbage collection takes care of getting rid of objects that no longer can be referenced, i.e. they are essentially dead
native code that does not involve automatic memory management has to manually keep track of both the allocation and de-allocation of every memory chunk
automatic memory management makes memory leaks much less common, and much easier to find when they do exist, compared to manual memory management
but if you have a native program with manual memory management that does not have any memory leaks, it will always vastly out-perform a program that uses automatic memory management
for server workloads where deadlines are measured in seconds, this rarely matters... who cares if your HTTP response is delayed by 300 msec because the garbage collector was running?
but every single frame in a 3d game has a deadline of 16.67 msec to operate at a consistent 60 fps
and you can only buffer a few frames at a time because the output constantly changes based on input events from the network, keyboard, and mouse
you can't afford to sit around and dawdle for 300 msec, let alone 1500
 
I care if my HTTP response is delayed by 300 ms. People close the tab if a site takes longer than a couple of seconds to load.
 
@MichaelHampton yeah, but compared to network latency, the cost of round trips, and the cost of hitting your database and generating the HTTP response, 300 msec for garbage collection is peanuts
all other things being equal it's just not that important unless your GC is single threaded and blocks the entire jvm for ~10 seconds
Java 6/7's concurrent mark and sweep garbage collector really doesn't take all that long in terms of server workloads
 
Actually this is why I don't run e-commerce sites on Java. That 300ms could mean as much as 1% lost sales.
 
also, server workloads spend significantly less time doing GC than real time rendering, because real time rendering is constantly generating enormous amounts of garbage, whereas servers do fewer and less frequent allocations because you don't need to process an http response every 16.67 msec
 
5:42 PM
@MichaelHampton I've heard e-commerce is all about load time
 
you might get one customer in every 1000 getting hit with GC latency on a server, whereas if you're copying tons of pixmaps and stuff in a game, you're going to hit the GC threshold every 2-3 seconds
 
Actually more than 1%... what I read is that Amazon says 100ms costs 1% of lost sales.
 
@allquixotic So how would you have to work around that if you were going to develop a game in .NET?
 
I'm not so sure that I believe that people really cancel out over 100 ms... that would only be a factor, I think, if the rest of the pipe is already abysmally slow on the order of 8-9 seconds... people would probably click away more often around 9.8 seconds versus 9.5, but not 1.3 versus 1.0
 
There's a few million sites you can read, but this one is illustrative.
 
5:45 PM
@r.tanner.f one way to do it is to get the Java virtual machine to do what C/C++ programmers do, which is to allocate once and bang on it continuously and re-use the existing allocation
 
@allquixotic Not all people. Everyone's different. But enough will cancel...
 
but to do that, at a bare minimum you have to use static arrays, you can't use for example, dynamically growing data structures
because those things constantly grow (and sometimes even shrink) their underlying memory allocations if you're adding and removing members
you'd also have to avoid things like boxing raw types in objects as much as possible
instantiating objects + real time 3d rendering + garbage collection = fail
maybe just one or two really small objects per frame... but large objects or many of them? can't do
also, you have to avoid exceptions, because the stack unwind is extremely expensive
 
"Half a second delay caused a 20% drop in traffic. Half a second delay killed user satisfaction." -- Wow.
So would .NET games just be a massive PITA?
 
there are ways to mitigate the problems, and minecraft, for example, is a fairly complex 3d game based on Java -- but Minecraft uses a lot of native code to prop itself up; a lot of the "critical path" stuff that it does which involves a lot of memory reads/writes is done in native code
writing a pure Java or pure .NET real-time 3d game is pretty much folly, where I mean "pure" in the sense of, like, using JNA to dynamically bind to the OpenGL runtime and doing all of your processing in Java or managed code, so that you can seamlessly port your game with no changes to any platform with Java and libGL.so
it's possible, but it's just going to be stuttery, and there's not a lot you can do
the only successful Java or .NET based games I've seen use a ton of native code for the tight loops, etc
and imho if you're using native code you may as well not be using a VM to begin with
because you run into integration issues when you pick up a new native library you want to use, but you have to bind it into the VM runtime through some kind of foreign function interface (JNI, JNA, P/Invoke, etc)
 
This says soooooo much about me.
User asks a question.
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Q: Trying to connect to a vsftpd server

user35538I'm trying to create a user using this instructions. But i'm still getting the login failed message. From local or from a remote machine, when i try connect. Any help?

 
5:51 PM
@allquixotic btw, had to install AMD beta drivers, but it seems to be working
 
And I assume they did not read until the end of the page with intructions
 
@Sathya cool... see, I knew they were working on it ;D
 
yeah, the 'stable' ones prevent installation due to that bloody nonsense not supported reason
 
they may have 15% fewer engineers but they're getting some stuff done still
 
but the beta installer has no such limitation
 
5:52 PM
that said, I wouldn't be surprised if 2013 is the year they drop support for HD5000 series entirely
 
@Sathya I saw the long edit about UEFI and win7. Nice one!
 
and 2014 for HD6000
 
@Hennes which one? I tend to edit a lot :P
 
I hope the HD5000 lasts a bit longer (I am using a 5870)
 
nvidia still supports cards that are like 5-6 years old, maybe more, with their legacy driver series that still gets support for new OSes, new Linux kernels, new Xorg, etc
 
5:53 PM
the start screen on the smaller screen is screwed, but the big screen it works fine
 
AMD is dropping support about 50% faster than nvidia
 
Installing windows 7 on a 2x3TB RAID with intel fake raid
 
@Hennes ah okk; just trying to keep things easy to read for all ;)
 
@Hennes TRWTF is fake raid
 
I went for AMD because at that time they did a lot more to open source their hardware
 
5:54 PM
> I added the root user to the /etc/vsftp.chroot_list just writing "root" (without quotes).
 
O_o I just randomly lost 30 rep
 
and games seem to be facing no performance drop
 
If it was my system I would put the OS on the SSD and software RAID the 3Tb drives
 
@Hennes they're still pretty okay on the open source side; they expanded their open source team since the initial creation of it, and didn't lay them off in the recent cut
 
5:55 PM
Anyway. AFk - boardgames
 
they can't open source the VCE or UVD components due to using third party "IP" and patent licenses and DRM
 
Last game in the current competition
(Gipf)
 
Bob
@allquixotic Solar 2 is a game on XNA/.NET. Not sure how much, if any, native code it uses but it does have nice (if slightly simple) graphics, and little to no stutter.
 
This is tweaking me out o_O It's not showing up in the reputation thingy, but I dropped 30 rep. Bug?
 
@r.tanner.f probably not a bug, i think that's related to serial upvoting maybe?
 
5:59 PM
oh wait, there it is
 
Bob
@r.tanner.f Deleted post?
 
@Bob Yeah deleted post. I thought it would show up in today's log.
 

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