Root Access

12:23 AM

multi-cloud is actually falling out of favor

multi-region within a given cloud, yes, but multi-cloud is bad because you have to code to the lowest common denominator, you can't use all the features of a given cloud

bwDraco

12:46 AM

Good night, fellows. Gotta wake up early tomorrow.

Journeyman Geek

3:02 AM

theverge.com/2019/6/19/18628321/… ._.

When I was 13, I picked up a bunch of parts, some of the decisions I made were terrible, and I ended up where I am now

feels like building a tablet misses a little of the magic

rahuldottech

3:13 AM

> Residents of richer nations like the United States are more likely to have doubts about vaccines, new study shows.

uhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh why tho are you kidding me?

like ya'll just go like "hurr we discovered cures and preventive measures for some of the worst diseases, but uh no that's all BS propaganda let's go back to the dark ages??"

allquixotic

4:16 AM

@rahuldottech Our education system is far, far worse than India's; worse, in fact, than most countries on Earth. Our top tier institutions are internationally recognized, but the lower 99% don't go to those; they go to schools with no air conditioning, with teachers who think the most important thing to "teach" is Christianity.

Basically, unless you go out of your way to be educated, the average person in the US is grossly undereducated about science and medicine, and the default is to tend to fear or suspect these things. Plus, with all the false information on the Internet, it's made a lot worse. A huge contingent of the Republican party's membership is made of undereducated people who believe many factually wrong things about the world.

You won't find many folks with a college degree who think vaccines are more harm than good, but among those who have just a high school diploma or worse, yeah. We're only "richer" in the sense that we have a very wealthy upper crust and a pretty fat (literally and figuratively) middle class. The have-nots are both uneducated and poor.

rahuldottech

5:45 AM

@allquixotic :(

Journeyman Geek

@allquixotic One can't totally blame that

rahuldottech

That sucks, man

Journeyman Geek

there's literally educated, smart folks pushing that, unrelated to religion

rahuldottech

@JourneymanGeek then they're... not smart

Oh my god are you kidding me

Journeyman Geek

@rahuldottech there's different kinds of smart

rahuldottech

5:46 AM

I'm looking for laptops to use for college

And NONE of them have keyboards with the menu key

Journeyman Geek

Imagine me if I was evil

rahuldottech

The only ones that do are the Microsoft laptops. Which are too expensive for me

Journeyman Geek

but even better at convincing people to do things

rahuldottech

cmon

@JourneymanGeek mhm

Journeyman Geek

and honestly - I'm not that smart

I get how a small subset of the human population works

so imagine, you actually honestly cannot that that your kid is autistic so much so you need to make up a story about how its a conspiracy

or you can cure them with bleech

yet the rest of you is high functioning. (and maybe a sociopath)

And the kid might actually function normally if you actually spent the time being a parent.

rahuldottech

5:53 AM

Yeah, I get your point

Okay back to laptops

All these brands want to make their laptops so thin

That the keyboards have very little key travel

I can't take this man

Journeyman Geek

@rahuldottech thin is sexy. Also modern laptops don't need to be fat.

rahuldottech

I need a good keyboard

Journeyman Geek

Also cheaper to produce

Honestly?

Get a second hand x220

rahuldottech

@JourneymanGeek I don't care about sexy. I care about usability

@JourneymanGeek it's impossible to get second-hand devices here now

Journeyman Geek

You can upgrade it a fair bit if you're so inclined (even install a full HD monitor)

ah

rahuldottech

5:55 AM

Ever since they killed eBay

Journeyman Geek

Every. single. modern. laptop. uses chicklet keys

rahuldottech

@JourneymanGeek :(

Journeyman Geek

to quote spencer...

you're stuffed.

rahuldottech

I don't know what sort my y50 has, but I've used it for four years and they keyboard has spoilt me

Journeyman Geek

odd

I thought they moved away from the really nice keyboards

rahuldottech

5:57 AM

@JourneymanGeek the only device I see here with a decent keyboard is a Zenbook

But it's also very expensive

Although I guess it's not a bad investment if I can get it to work for four years like my previous laptop

@JourneymanGeek it's a gaming laptop from 2015, so I guess that's why it has a better keyboard? They hadn't moved away yet?

Fwiw the gaming laptops in this store have nice keyboards

Journeyman Geek

I'd guess not

rahuldottech

But I'm not going to buy one ever again

Journeyman Geek

@rahuldottech gamers are keyboard snobs

They're a reason mechanical keyboards came back

rahuldottech

@JourneymanGeek as are programmers

Journeyman Geek

not all

rahuldottech

6:04 AM

Unfortunately, yeah :(

Journeyman Geek

The ones who are are also generally hardware snobs

Most folks would just use whatever was supplied with the PC

rahuldottech

I can't type for more than a couple minutes on a Macbook, and yet many programmers use them alllllll the tiiiiiime

@JourneymanGeek I'm just a snob for a lightweight laptop with a good keyboard and good battery life

Unfortunately that appears to not be a common combination

Journeyman Geek

@rahuldottech and that ends up being pricy ;p

rahuldottech

Shit man I reallllly like the Zenbook

I want this

But the store only has an 8gb ram option

OKAY F*CK ME

Even the configurations available online don't have more than 8 gigs of ram unless I also go for an expensive GPU that I'll never use

rahuldottech

6:24 AM

Why is it that laptops today still ship with the same amount of RAM as four years ago?

Bob

RAM takes space, RAM is expensive and most people don't need that much RAM

rahuldottech

@Bob But these are high-end machines

And if that's the case, why can't they just make it upgradable?

I just added a four gig stick from another machine to my y50, and it work perfectly

Bob

6:40 AM

@rahuldottech because you wanted thin and lightweight

RAM slots waste a lot of space

rahuldottech

@Bob I don't need macbook-level thin. Just something I can easily carry around. Think 2015-pre-macbook-ultrabook.

news.ycombinator.com/item?id=20229103

> For the fiscal year ending January 31, 2019, Slack reported losses of $138.9 million on revenue of $400.6 million. That’s compared to a loss of $140.1 million on revenue of $220.5 million the year prior.

> My question is where the hell is that money going?

That money is all the cash flow in some entire minor industries. It’s the GDP of some minor lower/mid-economy nations’ cities. Their losses are equal to half the entire GDP of Palau.

Maybe I’m detached. But I don’t understand the cash flow in chat apps today. It’s absolutely bizarre amounts of money for something that can and will easily be replaced in a few years, as always happens.

Yeah, I have a hard time understanding this stuff too

Journeyman Geek

@rahuldottech it's business. They rejected reality and substituted their own

The big issue with slack is they're hoping enough free tier folks move into paid tiers

rahuldottech

Call me old-fashioned (which is something that literally no one has ever done), but to me the ideal system is Matrix/Riot for regular conversations (coordinating, troubleshooting, etc) and email for all serious communication that needs to be archived for future reference

Journeyman Geek

@rahuldottech most of the folks here think like that

Riot ticks off so many boxes for folks here it's not funny

Most of us run servers for fun (and who knows, profit) and want to be able to set our own rules and talk privately

Bob

6:56 AM

> Call me old-fashioned

> Matrix/Riot

ಠ_ಠ

do you even IRC?

rahuldottech

@Bob I do, actually

Hang out on #philosophy @ freenode occasionally

But I realize that expecting non-tech people to IRC is... unreasonable

@Bob that referred to email, lmao. But any chat app will do instead of riot, really.

Bob

@JourneymanGeek downside is it's apparently easy for one server to drop off the face of the earth without anyone noticing :P

rahuldottech

Damn. Reddit Delhi meetup is not too far away from my place!

yey, maybe I can make a couple friends

Journeyman Geek

@Bob that's almost a feature

@rahuldottech I used to be part of a non techie IRC network

Just throw in web chat

@Bob actually the half duplex communciations 'feature' was the most amazing bit

Bob

7:26 AM

Journeyman Geek

._.

@Bob I'm still confused over who runs 32 bit

other than wierd chinese tablets with very little ram

Bob

@JourneymanGeek I do

lol

Journeyman Geek

@Bob wierd little tablets with... ;p

I WAS THINKING OF YOU SPECIFICALLY....

bertieb

7:42 AM

@rahuldottech Generally speaking, people aren't stupid, they are misinformed

The thing about anti-vax stories is that they all create a little bit of doubt about safety

Whatever it is, mercury, autism, etc

And these are folks who want to protect their kids, that old hundreds of thousands of years of biological imperative

rahuldottech

@bertieb Also, target vulnerable folks: parents who don't want to take any risk with their kids

@bertieb yeah, that

22 hours ago, by rahuldottech

i386 architecture will be dropped starting with eoan (Ubuntu 19.10)

bertieb

Aye, and for whom most of the diseases their kids are getting vaccinated against are just names

They haven't seen people with polio who have to use walking aids

They haven't experienced being terribly sick with measles

etc

Plus, due to the unfortunate way we are wired up, experience is a much stronger teacher than massive randomised controlled trials

rahuldottech

@bertieb yeah, the newer gen of parents

bertieb

So someone's cousin who had a 'reaction' (whatever that is) to a vaccine sticks in their mind

rahuldottech

Who, ironically, haven't seen the affect of such diseases due to the very vaccines that they now refuse to get administered to their own kids

bertieb

7:47 AM

Exactly, vaccinations are a victim of their own success

And the other way we are generally wired up is that we read, process and integrate things that conform to our world view; and reject, ignore and find faults/weaknesses in the things that don't

Of course, there are those who have beliefs which are a little further... "out there"

rahuldottech

@bertieb I still don't get the thought process tho. Surely if you never experienced those diseases but your parents did, that's due to the vaccines, right? So... they work? Isn't that the logical conclusion.

bertieb

but those can be worked around (with questionable ethics): reddit.com/r/AskReddit/comments/br87g0/… (short read but worth it)

@rahuldottech Not everyone thinks logically

rahuldottech

Can't ask someone to be logical if they're under the impression that they already are

bertieb

(sry for double beep)

rahuldottech

Hah, the thing about logic that I've seen is that everyone seems to be under the impression that their own thought process is logical, even when it's not.

bertieb

7:51 AM

Yes

People don't tend to question their own thought process

Journeyman Geek

@rahuldottech that said, techie folks often have imposter syndrome

we actually stop to think if we're idiots

and that sometimes helps

rahuldottech

I'm sorry for repeated messages and delayed responses, I'm on really crappy WiFi

bertieb

But there are those who respond... emotionally (for want of a better word)

Journeyman Geek

or as I once told my dad "I'm a computer guy, I don't get car stereos"

or medicine

I have a doctor I've had for ages and I trust the guy to give me good advice

bertieb

As in "doing this thing doesn't feel right to me"

A bit over-simplified

But there you go

Oh, I forgot about past cases of medical thing that were actually very harmful, but still used

eg thalidomide

things like that also stick in the mind

the point is it's good to try to to understand the thought process and motivations behind thinking like that

because as that askreddit link shows, you can work with feelings and beliefs and come up with something that is agreeable to both agendas of the dr and patient

rahuldottech

7:59 AM

@bertieb and tend to always start with the assumption that they're right and the one opposing you them wrong, rather than with the possibility that they just as easily could be wrong themselves.

OOOOOOOOOoow. My back hurts. And I have a long day ahead of me. oh no.

bertieb

@rahuldottech Yes, and people don't like to be wrong

rahuldottech

OOOOOOOOOoow. My back hurts. And I have a long day ahead of me. oh no.

Journeyman Geek

@bertieb which oddly enough does a number on some cancers

bertieb

So showing them facts / evidence that they might be tends to (counter-intuitively) push them further away from what you are trying to convince them of

Journeyman Geek

its just something to avoid when pregnant

bertieb

8:00 AM

@JourneymanGeek Correct, it is a very useful drug

It just has a ton of stigma

for obvious reasons

Journeyman Geek

On the other hand

there's actually evil drug companies you can't trust

but they won't be doing stuff like vaccines.\

bertieb

there are plenty of other things that shouldn't be given to women of childbearing age too

@JourneymanGeek Aye, just routine evil stuff like jacking up the price of insulin until people die

Journeyman Geek

I was also thinking perdue

rahuldottech

Reading from comments on their latest meta post they seem a bit... snarky

@JourneymanGeek Have you interacted with this SE employee in the past?

Journeyman Geek

@rahuldottech not directly

but I interact with someone who he works with a lot

Juan used to be international team so we didn't see him that much

@rahuldottech that said, if you need something reasonable, I can probably ask around.

Catija's in his team, and she's kinda the CM most of us see these days

Burgi

8:06 AM

morning

bertieb

Morning!

Journeyman Geek

OH

@rahuldottech your messages are out of order

which comments exactly?

rahuldottech

@JourneymanGeek nah, I was just curious

@JourneymanGeek yeah, really crappy wifi here

Journeyman Geek

@rahuldottech I can relate. I just got confused

ah

rahuldottech

There's only one seat in the cafe where you can get decent connectivity and this old man has been occupying it for the past couple hours, just sitting there and reading the newspaper

Journeyman Geek

8:11 AM

ah lol

rahuldottech

And I think he's staring at me now because I keep looking to check if he's left and I guess that comes off as creepy or something

bertieb

lol

Journeyman Geek

@rahuldottech I kinda miss the good old days when SE was smaller and we had random CMs turn up

Like the time Aarthi assumed one of the british regulars who isn't around any more was the tamil dude and we were all nooooooooo

rahuldottech

lol

The man just called the waiter over and I got excited thinking that he was asking for the check but noooooo he wants a refill of his coffee. Damnit.

Journeyman Geek

(for the record - its just me, jokerdino and hacktohell)

rahuldottech

8:14 AM

@JourneymanGeek I haven't seen either of those two here in a very long time

Journeyman Geek

@rahuldottech Ya :/

Burgi

the no swearing policy has killed this channel

rahuldottech

Ah well. People come and go. There were Gypsy Spellweaver who and Satibel who used to hang out here a couple years ago. I saw Gypsy on cseducators.se a year ago, I think. No idea what happened to Satibel.

Then there were the two daves

Journeyman Geek

yup

@Burgi I think we mostly have the same people since that. And its less a policy than a "go faff yourself, we're not going to give you the satisfaction"

rahuldottech

And Psycogeek ran away in an RV

OLD MAN JUST ASKED FOR THE CHEQUE

(check? bill? idk proper terminology)

Journeyman Geek

8:22 AM

GARCON! BILL IF YOU PLEASE PLEASE!

rahuldottech

(check? bill? idk proper terminology)

Journeyman Geek

lol

Language!

what you need is a cantenna

rahuldottech

CMON

he's leavvvvvvvvvvvvvvvving

Journeyman Geek

Someone else beat you to it

that's life!

sigh

these things happen ;p

for things more serious than wifi ;p

rahuldottech

@JourneymanGeek I'm so sorry I tried to edit the message but chat is really acting up here

Just delete those I can't anymore

I'm going offline till I can find a decent connection, see ya.

Journeyman Geek

8:30 AM

3 messages deleted

bertieb

Yay, my eyes are now unoffended!~

Journeyman Geek

Actually its more the "its not that bad chiiilllll"

tereško

what happened?

Journeyman Geek

@tereško @rahuldottech's wifi is terrible

Until last year, that was every day ending with Y for me ;p

tereško

ah, he's in my ignore list

rahuldottech

8:38 AM

Wha-

Why?

I'm cool, man!

(I... Think?)

@JourneymanGeek So I found a spot in the cafe with decent internet. Unfortunately, however, there's no power outlet nearby, so I'll have to go back to another spot w/o internet in a bit because my laptop has crappy battery life

bertieb

Long extension cable? :D

rahuldottech

@bertieb I actually could probably purchase one (that's wayy overpriced) in the mall, but I'm not sure if it's acceptable to run one along the floor of a public cafe.

bertieb

Could ask the owner/manager?

If you're a regular and actually paying for stuff they might look favourably

You could even get a multi-outlet dealie as well as an extension, so that the socket is still available in that location

rahuldottech

@bertieb Not a regular. Waiters here are very polite, and I am indeed a paying customer, but idk.

bertieb

That said, paying over the odds for something simple would chafe me...

rahuldottech

8:52 AM

A very interesting question: academia.stackexchange.com/questions/132121/…

My mom's a professor and I take after her in the sense that I've always wanted to eventually end up in the teaching profession

That said, I have wondered in the past whether I would be a better teacher to younger students. I feel like I might.

I'm unsure, and all this is at least a couple decades away, but I wonder...

(all this = me becoming a teacher)

I'd like to add a footnote to your last paragraph: Sometimes it's not about the material you teach, sometimes it's about the lives you impact. — J.R. 15 hours ago

this

Burgi

@rahuldottech why are you not working from home?

rahuldottech

This is precisely the reason why I want to become a teacher. You get to have a legacy in a manner that's rare, if not impossible to have when you're in a different profession.

@Burgi Cafes are fun. I'm sick of being at home.

I also have better productivity when I get out of the house, I feel. Too many distractions at home.

Burgi

even with crap internet?

rahuldottech

@Burgi I wasn't anticipating that bit ;p

rahuldottech

9:19 AM

Googler Wearing DuckDuckGo T-Shirt At Google

rahuldottech

10:07 AM

@alq riot

Tanuj

I wanted to ask about Web Development/Wordpress , but I can't seem to find an appropriate chat room , can someone please guide me ?

rahuldottech

Lmao I love riot

@Tanuj wordpress.stackexchange.com

But their chatrooms appear to not be very active

Depending on your problem, you could ask on Server Fault or Stack Overflow chat

Tanuj

@rahuldottech thanks

bertieb

10:50 AM

Hmph

Why does my laser printer think there is a jam in tray 1 after printing after printing one sheet, even when there isn't one?

I print something with 4 pages (say), and after page 1 it says "jam in tray 1, clear it and hit ok to continue"

so I open up the tray and close it, hit ok, and it prints page 2

repeat

rahuldottech

@bertieb probably due to dust jamming up parts?

bertieb

@rahuldottech But it does actually print okay

Do you mean like dust in a jam sensor, or somesuch?

I'm not actually sure how printers tend to detect paper jams

bwDraco

@bertieb Paper sensor problems? The printer might think there's something in the paper path when it's actually clear. I've seen this happen before in high-speed office copiers.

Journeyman Geek

@rahuldottech SF chat is mostly dead and frowns upon such questions

bertieb

@bwDraco Seems like a possibility, is there a general way to troubleshoot it, or should I try and find the manual online?

I got the printer for free ages ago, and it came with no manual

rahuldottech

11:07 AM

@JourneymanGeek TIL. I had a toxic experience there a few years ago and haven't visited since so idk

@bertieb possibly. Also might be jamming up gears, motors or other mechanical parts and causing resistance which can be possibly detected as an obstruction or jam

bertieb

@rahuldottech I guess it's possible, doesn't sound like any motors are under strain but would be kinda hard to tell from audio clues alone, probably

rahuldottech

@bertieb I don't know much about the troubleshooting printers (although I have taken a couple apart in the past), so dunno. Good luck troubleshooting.

I'm in pain so I'mma go to bed and take a nap

bertieb

Cheers 👍

rahuldottech

See y'all l8rz

bertieb

It's an inconvenience rather than non-functional so I haven't done much with it up till now

Just annoying for multi-page docs

Hope the nap improves your back!

Journeyman Geek

11:24 AM

@rahuldottech SF was tricky

For some reason people there like me though

rahuldottech

@bertieb apparently I'm too caffeinated to go to sleep

rest ≠ sleep, tho

vice.com/en_in/article/ywykny/…

Shhsjdmdjxggxbdmdjjdhdnd

bertieb

Bengaluru is not where I expected it to be

rahuldottech

@bertieb why not?

bertieb

Figured it'd be in the north east

rahuldottech

11:39 AM

@bertieb why tho?

bertieb

Had Bengal in the name, figure

rahuldottech

@bertieb oh lol

bertieb

d it would be up where the Bengal sultanate used to be

or at least near there

rahuldottech

Nah, that's not how it works

bertieb

my knowledge may be half a millennium out of date

Anything can be anywhere I guess

rahuldottech

11:42 AM

Yeah. Very different places, very different cultures.

bertieb

More of a "if I had to guess" situation

rahuldottech

I don't know what to think of this law

bertieb

Doesn't Sweden have a similar one?

As in the one they're pursuing Assange with

?

Not so much the marriage aspect

but the deception bit

rahuldottech

> And because having sex with someone by promising to marry them after is considered rape in India, the man was thrown into jail immediately after.

bertieb

I presume he was permitted to re-dress himself, at least

Inappropes?

rahuldottech

11:46 AM

She met someone on tinder, an app used almost exclusively for hook-ups, and then claimed that she expected... Marriage?

I have sex with a chick, and then she claims that she expected me to marry her and bam! I'm booked for rape?

Seems harsh and unfair

bertieb

Presumably there would have to be evidence

rahuldottech

@bertieb continue on riot?

tereško

hmmm .... I think I will have to see this one: rottentomatoes.com/m/shaft_2019

bertieb

@rahuldottech I have to head out very shortly for a meeting but I'll be back later and read scrollback!

rahuldottech

@bertieb yeah, do that

rahuldottech

1:23 PM

twitter.com/Tails_live/status/1141682919817142274

UHHH

> Please write us at tails@boum.org, stay safe, and keep struggling!

that last word seems... out of place?

s/struggling/fighting/ (?)

Bob

2:13 PM

From reddit.com/r/Windows10/comments/c2jv7p/…

djsmiley2k

2:36 PM

jack daniels or rum

decisions

bertieb

...aren't you still at work? ;-P

Blog bot

3:00 PM

stackoverflow.blog/2019/06/20/…

allquixotic

3:11 PM

@Bob lol

@rahuldottech "the [great] struggle" is nearly synonymous with "the [great] fight" in English.

Burgi

@bertieb we have beer o'clock

@Blogbot you've gone for a new crazy domain like @rahuldottech

bertieb

At work? :o

Burgi

@bertieb yeah

its not all bad here

bertieb

Hmm, can't say I expected that

Didn't think it was a thing in any workplace

I mean, not in a judgy, "how dare a workplace do this" way

Just not on my list of things I would expect a workplace to do!

djsmiley2k

3:45 PM

@bertieb nah misses' birthday./

bertieb

Rum, in that case

Or possibly Gentleman Jack, if she's a fan

Wait, that's a different thing

Lemme check my purchase history, i got something for my brother in law which he enjoyed

No wait, it is totally the right thing

Jack Daniel's Gentleman Jack Tennessee Whiskey

djsmiley2k

yes

bertieb

(happens to share a name with a programme on the beeb about Anne Lister)

djsmiley2k

Gentleman Jack is weird

it's like watered down, but not watered, but.....

mellowed.

bertieb

Sounds good to me?

I don't think I've tried it in any great quantity

rahuldottech

4:05 PM

> The United States has told India it is considering caps on H-1B work visas for nations that force foreign companies to store data locally, three sources with knowledge of the matter told Reuters, widening the two countries’ row over tariffs and trade.

BS. Such major BS.

allquixotic

4:21 PM

@rahuldottech Which part is the BS? That you can't use a foreign service provided over the Internet in India unless the data storage for it is located in India? Sounds like a lot of BS to me :) I've got data all over the world and I don't want my government to force all of it to be in the US.

rahuldottech

@allquixotic No, that's not what the law says

I can freely use a service hosted abroad (such as, say, riot) without them having to store any information locally

allquixotic

What does the law say?

rahuldottech

The law applies to any and all local companies, regardless of whether or not they're subsidiaries of foreign companies

For eg

Google India can't send data of Indian users to USA servers

That's a good thing IMO

Canadian Luke

5:05 PM

So that's what we're supposed to have in Canada, but we know better....

bwDraco

pcgamesn.com/amd/ryzen-9-3950x-best-gaming-cpu

Hennes

5:33 PM

To bad, I just bought an i9-9900k

bertieb

Hmm

My phone autocorrected lovely to 'lubberly'

Apparently Dick van Dyke populated the autocorrect dictionary

Also the race is down to the

the hobo and the perv

Slightly better (?) if you think of them as campy 1960s Batman villains

Rather than the next PM

allquixotic

7:49 PM

0

Q: EC2 Java StartInstancesRequest goes from "pending" to "stopping" to "stopped"

I have the following situation: Dedicated tenancy m4.large EC2 instance running RHEL6 Manually starting it using the AWS Console works fine Lambda function (written in Java) that tries to start it, fails, because the instance state goes: stopped -> pending -> stopping -> stopped I have a Lamb...

Canadian Luke

10:19 PM

I got Nagios statuses sent to my phone now, except outside working hours. I'm learning to love it!

Journeyman Geek

10:42 PM

@rahuldottech honestly? H1bs kinda get abused and it might not be a bad thing for the Indian outsourcing sweatshops to go bust

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