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02:00 - 20:0020:00 - 00:00

2:12 AM
@Bob There was like, a newer gen half a year after the first gen
@Bob That's the whole point of the Backblaze stats, they are dealing with thousands of drives, 97,600 to be precise
2:29 AM
@FMLCat Yea, which is good enough for Blackblaze and similar, but pretty useless to the average consumer with 1-2 drives.
It doesn't matter if your 1 drive has a 1% or 3% chance of failing within 3 years
Well, who would have guessed that blocking the front intake fans reduced the output of the rear exhaust fan?
2:49 AM
Also, Noctua's industrial-grade three-phase motor runs far, far cooler than the piece-of-crap motor used in the stock Corsair fan.
Hell, it's rated for lower power consumption at twice the speed!
(0.18A rating on the NF-A14 iPPC-2000, 0.30A on the Corsair A1425L12S-2 fan)
Why the $%#!&@ would a 1,000 rpm 140mm fan require 3.6W of power?!
This fan dissipates an insane amount of heat in the motor!
In any case, the fans that came with the case have all been replaced. Good riddance.
Excavator. You don't want it.
You should be able to get the vastly superior Raven Ridge for only a bit more.
AMD really needs a proper Ark equivalent.
@bwDraco It's what was in a 209 AUD refurb Inspiron 11 :P
3:04 AM
(at least that's the case the last time I went to Best Buy)
You can get a laptop with a Ryzen 3 2200U for as little as $360.
I love we just got a model name with no context and someone's like "oh that's crap"
@bwDraco yea uh, 360 USD ain't little
3:08 AM
And I'd pick that any day of the week and twice on Sunday.
at about 500 AUD, that's what your typical cheapo 15.6" i3s go for, IIRC
Let me take a closer look because I though I saw Raven Ridge in even cheaper machines...
@JourneymanGeek lol, it's such a huge pain finding AMD proc specs it's easier to just ask @bwDraco :D
@Bob ;p
@bwDraco to be fair at the 209 AU Drange the comparison point would be Celeron... which is also shit
but I just wanted to pick up something that could play a video in a web browser (which is unfortunately surprisingly demanding these days, but even then an Atom x5 or above should handle it no sweat)
the 32 GB eMMC is a bigger problem than the CPU choice :\
3:12 AM
@Bob those are fun
barely big enough to run windows. Not big enough to update the normal way
(you'd need an external drive to update the system)
@Bob And watch out for NAND endurance.
Jul 20 '17 at 1:39, by bwDraco
Low-cost planar TLC NAND + DRAMless controller + low capacity + high write amplification (because the drive is often close to full) + low RAM + software not designed to minimize writes = bad SSD endurance.
Hmm... 4 GB RAM. At least there's a tolerable amount of memory.
@bwDraco lol, at that price nand endurance is waaaaaaaaay down the list of considerations
You're actually going to get much better performance with 4 GB than with 2 GB, since you have less paging (or memory compression).
But IMO it's the perfect system to run Linux with.
3:18 AM
yea, nah
I'm not interested with Linux on a touchscreen/convertible
...wait. is that inspiron even a touchscreen?
...probably not
wait no that's 8"
ah screw it
cheapo tablets still cost entirely too much
3:54 AM
This is outside the case in a cool environment. Whoever designed this fan can go die in a fire.
The fan is spinning freely with nothing in front of it.
The 0.30A rating is almost comical for such a low-speed fan.
Especially when a Noctua industrial fan of the same size that spins twice as fast uses only 60% of the power.
1 hour later…
5:03 AM
@JourneymanGeek Requesting room unfreeze: chat.stackexchange.com/rooms/81775/…
5:20 AM
@Nick done
@JourneymanGeek peace be upon you, flavoursome knight.
5:44 AM
> Imagine reading a post, but over the course of it the quality seems to deteriorate and it gets wose an wose, where the swenetence stwucture and gwammer rewerts to a pwoint of uttew non swence, an u jus dont wanna wead it anymwore (o´ω`o) awd twa wol owdewl iws jus awfwul (´・ω・`);. bwt tw powost iwswnwt obwer nyet, it gwos own an own an own an own. uwu wanyaa stwop weadwing bwut uwu cwant stop wewding, uwu stwartd thwis awnd ur gwoing two fwinibsh it nowo mwattew wat! uwu hab mwoxie kwiddowo, bwut uwu wibl gwib ub sowon. i cwan wite wike dis fwor owors, swo dwont cwalengbe mii..
@rahuldottech achweewmnt unwockd
@JourneymanGeek That didn't make much sense. Maybe you meant: flagged
5:49 AM
also I am so tattling on you to your england teacher.
@JourneymanGeek lmao
6:50 AM
@Bob True, for the average consumer they'd maybe want to choose a more reliable drive but in practice at the end of the day if your drive dies it dies, unpredictable failures are by definition unpredictable so it doesn't make any real difference.
Maybe they'd feel better if they thought theirs had a lower chance of failure than average but that doesn't give you an excuse to not have backups.
@JourneymanGeek lol
7:53 AM
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That last one
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@bwDraco Wouldn't the fan blow out the fire... ohh I see!
1 hour later…
9:03 AM
ffs how is excel 2016 s obroken
close excel completely, open passworded file from network drive, while this is loading, open another one. Crashes excel \o/
2 hours later…
11:00 AM
Happy birthday @HornOKPlease
2 hours later…
12:41 PM
Thank you! :D
@HornOKPlease have a good one!
Is the ' in :'( a nose or a tear?
12:59 PM
tear, usually
Huh, okay then
2 hours later…
2:44 PM
Happy Birthday @HornOKPlease and anyone whos birthday I've ever missed, because I'm no good at that kinda thing.
Thank you! I'm 33
@HornOKPlease Fun fact: 33 equal to the sum of the squares of the digits of its own square in bases 9, 16 and 31.
This is rare for numbers other than 1
Also, atomic number of arsenic
And the number of vertebrae in the human spine
Lastly, the boiling point of water on the Newton Scale
Prettyy cool
Jesus' age when he was crucified!
One of the symbols of Ku Klux Klan. (K is the 11th letter of the alphabet; 3 times 11 is 33, KKK).
The international phone code for France
Ok I'm done
3:11 PM
@rahuldottech That's not very fun
@rahuldottech Neither is that
@rahuldottech Nor that
Happy bday quix :p
Happy birthday, @HornOKPlease.
@bwDraco thank you :)
3:36 PM
are you doing anything for your birthday?
getting a macbook and fixing my computer cooling issue
also getting my old macbook keyboard repaired for free
Should I get an i7-4770k or a I5-2500k for my new nas build?
@MathCubes the 4770K is objectively a better CPU, but if you're just using it for NAS functions and nothing else, the 2500K is probably fine... hell, even if you use it for video / audio playback it should probably be fine
but decoding audio/video does use more CPU than just transferring data from storage to the network and back
3:38 PM
I have an fx 6300 with 8 gigs of ram but I been told 8 gigs of ram isn't enough
depends on the volume of data you'll be moving and how many users
1 user
And many video and backup archieves
8 gigs of RAM is a little on the low side for ZFS (my recommended filesystem for a NAS if you are building a custom system) but it should work
how many TB or GB of total storage will it have?
Right now I have over 6TB of footage that is overflowing form my 6TB hdd and I have it back up on 8TB hdd that I just bought.
Humm, I just order 4 8TB used WD GOLD HDDs
I was planning on have 6 HDD installed.
ok, that's some serious data, will you be doing any kind of software RAID with that?
3:41 PM
2 for data, 1 for Redundancy. So 16 TB in usable space.
I was thinking have cloneing that with WD white labels hdds for a backup section as well
wait, so what RAID level / topology will that be?
So two raids setup for a single pc.
@HornOKPlease if you're not using deduplication 8GB is plenty, IME; at least, I have 10TB of ZFS storage and 8GB RAM and member pressure is never an issue even sharing that with a bunch of daemons.
ah, so ZFS RAID-Z (like RAID-5) but with an extra parity disk?
*memory pressure.
3:43 PM
@HornOKPlease What abouting running an application for backing up?
@ToxicFrog ah, okay, I haven't actually tested ZFS with that little RAM but good to know
Onto the other raid setup
Turning on deduplication will of course massively increase memory usage.
(n.b. this is ZoL; I don't know what the memory profile of BSD or Solaris ZFS is like)
3:44 PM
@MathCubes not sure that's ideal, to be honest - if the storage is attached to the same system you aren't really benefiting from having a separate array, unless you make the backup array store deltas and keep prior versions
@MathCubes ZFS has a feature that lets it deduplicate blocks, so if two files contain the same data the data is stored only once and shared between both files.
If you have lots of duplicate data this can result in significant space savings, but it's a performance hit and requires quite a lot of memory.
@ToxicFrog I order 4 - 8TB HDDs. Now if I get another 3 8TB HDDS. I can have two setups. One for daily use and one for backing up. I thought I can just used a program to copy them over to the backup raid
I have never delt with this before
@HornOKPlease IMO, if it doesn't store previous versions it's not really a backup, and any modern backup software will handle that (and deduplication and deltification) for you.
3 - 8TB HDD for each raid setup
considering the threat model...
1. Fire: if your server/house catches on fire, you're losing all your data if your only copy is on the NAS; it isn't safe for you to try to save some HDDs, get yourself out!!
2. Hacker: if your server is hacked, yes they can more easily wipe a single RAID array than two, but if they enumerate the devices on the system and see a second array (even if it's "offline"), they can bring it online in an instant and nuke it too just to be an a-hole :)
3. Bit flips: ZFS will detect these and correct these really well already
the main purpose of having the "backup" array would be storing prior versions, indeed, to protect against accidental deletion for instance, but it isn't a true backup IMO unless it's offsite
3:47 PM
I mean to protect myshelf from accidently deleting anything.
The main use case for local backups is "oh shit, I accidentally deleted ~/.config"; but as @HornOKPlease it won't protect you from lots of other stuff.
Which I have done and I got upset about
Or protect from data rot
and corrpection
For reference, my setup is 4x2TB RAIDZ1 as the main data storage, with a subset of that backed up to a separate 2x1TB Zmirror using bup (although I'm migrating to borg); the contents of the backup array are then copied offset weekly or so.
2TB? Doesn't that seem low to you?
YOu could just get an 8TB HDD?
How old is your setup?
It's the server of theseus so that's not really an easy question to answer.
3:51 PM
And no, it doesn't; the complete backup repo fluctuates in size as new backups are created and old ones are pruned but hovers around 300-400GB
if you want to really put data "on ice" long term I would suggest AWS Glacier; they're coming out with a high redundancy, WORN (Write Once / Read Never (except for disaster recovery)) storage service called Glacier Deep Archive in early 2019 (we hope) that's $1 per TB per month, so if you had 32 TB of data it would be $384/year, which is probably cheaper than maintaining your own SAN, and many times more reliable
and when you don't have 32 TB of data it's way cheaper than having your own server
My problem is do I want to get another 3 8TB for backing up or just wait for HAMR with like 20TB next year.
paying up front for 32 GB of storage for your local system (and all the time configuring the software, setting up the rig, etc.) only to lose it to fire or flood or theft would be unfortunate
I don't back up everything, a lot of the 8TB array is music/video/installer data that I can re-rip or re-download if I need to. So what gets backed up is (roughly) /home /root /etc /srv and /var/lib on the server and laptop, /home on the desktop, and weekly snapshots of a few websites I manage.
And the backup program compresses and deduplicates all of that, even across machines, so it's stored quite compactly.
3:53 PM
I just use Backblaze B2 for my desktop and laptop but I'm considering moving a copy of personal photos from iCloud and Google Drive into Amazon Glacier Deep Archive when it launches; my total irreplaceable data set is under half a terabyte, so that's $6 USD per year for a cloud archival
that's less than a .com domain name
I will live in an apartment soon. Flood no so much, if you live in a flood zone and don't go boating then you should move. Fires fire enough but you could keep it right by your door or having another setup in your shed. More of a problem are tornadoes.
Part of keeping backups is figuring out what you actually need to back up. Generally you don't need to back up literally everything on the computer.
You don't need your OS drive for example
@ToxicFrog yeah; I've mostly moved to cloud music (Spotify) and cloud video (Netflix) so really my only irreplaceable stuff is pictures of family and my cat and places I've gone, and my password vault
Althou I do back it up, just incase of a update corrpect something and I am time press for class
3:54 PM
I have gigabit fiber so game downloads are totally, trivially replaceable
can download like a terabyte of games per day if needed
I just used my odd hdd for it and my os drive is my new ssd
@HornOKPlease My friend has 1 megabit down/ second. So its just quicker for me to ship a game to him on a flash drive than it is for him to download it. Lazy devs for not optimizing their games
@HornOKPlease yeah, I need to find a better photo backup solution...my photos are "backed up" to google photos but that doesn't preserve tag/album information.
Why don't devs optimize their games for junk hardware or slow internet speeds
My buddy bought the cd version of doom thinking that he could play it
> slow internet speeds
@MathCubes ouch
3:57 PM
The Uplay, Origin, and Battle.net clients try to allow at least limited playability with certain games while the download is still in progress. (Sadly, Steam does not have this feature.)
It shouldn't of took him 4 days to get it in the mail. It would have token him like a week and a half to download it. That is if he didn't want to do anything on his net
@MathCubes most modern AAA and MMO games have so much data that putting in a very efficient compression format, like LZMA2, would cause your game to take about 30 minutes to start up, so they store the game data uncompressed, or very poorly compressed, on disk. And content providers like Steam do compress the data in transit across the internet, but not extremely well AFAIK.
@bwDraco You are forgetting something. 1 megabit/second down isn't enough. His ISP just upgraded him from like 750 Kilobits/second down. He has ISDN
I don't get why they can't use low res textures
Heck a game from the time area of a old PC looks better on it than a game in which you lower the settings on. IT just look like a pixelated mess.
I know some games like Xonotic, you can turn off the textures and have solid colors. I don't get why trip AAA games take examples from open source games
@MathCubes it would be very frugal if they would allow you to download only the texture/mesh quality you desire and not all of them; I know a few games that do have high res texture packs as an optional DLC
I consider low res to be like 64x64
If a game is bigger than 500 MB than its just too big, and they should offer an micro version
With low res textures
Or none textures and just have a solid color.
When Doom 3 or Quake 3 looks better on a PC than a modern Game with the lowest settings. There is a problem.
I mean like with Intel Igpus
Which a lot of his got
Mordren games in my opinion just sucks
And they can stab their STEAM DRM stuff up their A** too. WHat happens if you have a family? Why should I buy the games for each of my family members that we can all play it for fun.
Older game devs wouldn't pull that garbage
4:03 PM
wow angry much.
I am not angry
I am calling them lazy
oh yah they lazy
who isn't.
Its like why do modern web browsers use 9 gigs of ram?
'works on my machine!'
New devs expect someone to have the fastest net and the best hardward and if not buy new
4:05 PM
I am not joking
because their ipadjacketsuperphones do it.
I know a few older devs who are in disgrace of this new gen of devs about resource management.
This guy that I know, told me that a new dev that came right from college got fired from his workplace cause he didn't think resource management was thing to force on
I totally understand your concerns about the growing complexity of gaming, especially for casual users. My father doesn't exactly like it, either.
He told me that his code was using too much ram.
@bwDraco its not skill, its paid to win.
4:08 PM
I'm talking about technical complexity.
I am a casual player but I still play quake like games. Cause I only enjoy games that take skill
I can say I suck at them.
e.g. the need to set up a client program for most games, and the fact that a number of different clients are now needed, e.g. Steam, Uplay, Origin, Battle.net.
And saying that skins don't affect game play. yes they do. That is like saying that an solider not wearing camo doesn't change warfare.

If you playing on a desert, and you have on yellow... And you buddy is wearing neon green. Guess what. He is going to be seen and your aren't.
@bwDraco But all of them sucks
An argument in favor of raising game prices rather than relying on microtransactions.
No ones buys the game because they all suck and they are just a rebrand of the last game
4:11 PM
> they are just a rebrand of the last game
Opinion, not fact.
If they made a great game like HALO, than everyone would buy it
@bwDraco whats the difference between this latest BF or CoD than the last? Slightly better graphics?
@MathCubes You see, this is the whole point of "games as a service".
And the game market is just have too many games that are petty much the same. For example WW2 games
Without anything that really makes them unique
or stands out
Have a handful of continuously-maintained games monetized by selling lots of add-ons and microtransactions instead of individual large games.
I feel that is their problem
4:14 PM
The industry has been moving in this direction, but unfortunately, it doesn't work as well for single-player games.
I wouldn't buy a game that is like that
Ubisoft has been having a good deal of success doing this with their latest Assassin's Creed games, though they stumbled badly when they first tried it with Unity.
And the lack of optimization. Just imagine here that they actually optimizatize the game to work with junk hardware and slow nets. How many more people would buy the game now.
(Assassin's Creed Origins was a massive return to form for the franchise)
Unity is more or less junk. Mostly whats is made with it
All major game engines sucks when it comes to optimizing.
4:16 PM
@MathCubes I meant the game Assassin's Creed Unity.
@bwDraco I truly never play that game.
Buts its great I heard
I wounder how many copys ID tech sold of DOOM, the new one
@MathCubes It was really bad at launch.
I love ID tech
@bwDraco Do you think its the graphics are just fine?
And that why people aren't buying the new game.
YOu can see the difference between Wolfenstein 3D, Doom, And Quake.
@bwDraco I wouldn't be surprise if nVidia and such pays game engine devs to not optimize their game engines.
@MathCubes Not exactly true, but NVIDIA has done rather anticompetitive things in the past, including releasing middleware that can only be optimized for NVIDIA graphics cards.
4:24 PM
Well nVidia basically controls the market
We both know that
But I wouldn't be surprise if AMD does the same.
But the current/new gen of devs are also lazy unlike the gens form the 80 or 90s
@bwDraco Know anything about Ray Tracing? Is it anything new? Does it speeds up Render scenes of CAD?
Ray-tracing per se is not new, but this is the first time it's been implemented in a hardware-accelerated manner. For professional applications, it can make a significant difference.
That is what I mean hardware base
I know it been along for a while
@bwDraco I don't know about you but I don't ask anything advice form gamers... You? They think they know everything about hardware but actually know nothing and get all offensive, when you say that overall Vega is better than 1080 architecture for most tasks if you on a budget.
@MathCubes It is indeed true that in general, Vega 64 is slightly better than the GTX 1080. However, the cryptocurrency craze earlier this year made it a non-option for most gamers.
I got call an AMD fanboy for saying its better for CAD or way better by many times for cryptographcy.
But bear in mind that the Vega 64 consumes far more power than the NVIDIA solution.
4:33 PM
@bwDraco They just see FPS as performance and just can't get warp their head around any other use cause. For example, they don't get that Geforces are way better at Realtime viewing than Quaro cards.
It'll cost more to run over time, and you'll need better cooling and power delivery.
@bwDraco for someone that does CAD for a hobby it doesn't really affect him/her
@bwDraco When you say that Thread Ripper is generally better than any intel offerings. They also go crazy
@MathCubes Depends on your application. They often use the same underlying GPU, but NVIDIA restricts certain features to upsell workstation users, and Quadro cards are more thoroughly tested, both at the hardware level and for workstation applications.
For business users, having a card and driver stack that is specifically validated for these applications matters a lot.
True but you can't simply have both cards due to conflict in drivers.
Its like if you need more ram buy Quadro or the select few applications that works with it better otherwise...
They are not as optimized for performance the way the consumer GeForce drivers are, but are instead meant for accurate and reliable rendering.
4:36 PM
And they have a longer warranty too. I think 7 years.
@MathCubes Well, support period. NVIDIA provides tech support and updates for these cards for longer.
@MathCubes Very application-dependent, and the WX chips are held back by Windows's poor NUMA support relative to Linux.
Yeah but in 7 years or so they will be outdated
Any idea on Linux but most things like CAD expect Blender don't run on Linux
I have seen on many forums people that do cad and such for a hobby will say that Vegas are the best cards for them.
Cause they are like a thread ripper for graphics cards.
The Ryzen Threadripper processors are incredibly powerful, there's no denying that. But there are complexities, like the fact that they're NUMA systems, which can make them perform worse than Intel processors with similar core counts in certain heavily-threaded tasks, and that the WX processors (24C-32C) have two of the four NUMA nodes not directly attached to memory at all.
Linux currently handles this situation far better than Windows does.
I quite like Linux but it needs more application supports
As for value for money, AMD is the clear winner.
4:40 PM
There is no drought that I hate Windows.
Are you currently on mobile chat? You're making a lot of typos.
I feel like they are holding our back
I actually did like Windows mobile more than Android or Ios on mobile but I never had/have a phone.
To me it had the best UI.
Ultimately, there needs to be better software support for these unusual processor architectures. While AMD clearly gives you more bang for the buck here, there's a number of caveats that can degrade performance and prevent the processor from operating at its full potential.
@bwDraco spell checker, and I just reinstall Windows on my SSD and right now I am using edge and it auto changes the words for some reason.
> it auto changes the words for some reason
This feature is common to all Windows Store apps.
4:43 PM
Yeah, and I just delete them all
I don't like the new Metro applications
I like Win32 applications better
AIUI any app that uses the WinRT text-handling APIs does spelling autocorrect by default...
They don't integrate with the system well. To me despite being slow, windows 7 was the best. At least it wasn't a mess.
Unlike 8 or 10
What ever they are, they don't integrate well with the desktop.
You can disable it globally across all WinRT apps, though I'd prefer an app-level control.
Let be honest here. Windows just sucks
Heck, there are dialogs from 95 still in Windows...
4:47 PM
They would need to redo it and I don't think they have the man power and it would back backwards compatibility.
Didn't know it had that feature. I would considerate more of a bug than anything.
Its not like Office when you can just press the enter key.
It's built into the WinRT API, so it's handled at a level below the app itself. I'm not a fan of this behavior, to say the least.
With Win mobile being dead. I wonder why MS is still pushing for WinRT.
Its also so weak. like can't access your file system.
Oh its sandbox. That's explains it.
The idea is security.
Or so they say.
Yet they have the right to spy
And they are loaded up with ads
The only improvement I can see is with the calc
The rest is junk
@MathCubes This is configurable, and you get to set it during first-time setup and in the Settings app.
4:52 PM
Is it just me or is like almost all windows default applications junk.
But many consumers just do not care.
In compare... to Linux.
or Macs.
@bwDraco Funny. I wouldn't have guess that but if they haven't used better...
@bwDraco anyways talk later.
See you later :)
Going out for a bicycle ride
5:37 PM
Adjusted the rear exhaust fan curve a bit. Looks like the whole "rad fans pulling GPU heat" problem has been solved.
I'll have to live with a bit more noise, but that's a small price to pay.
I'm currently relying on the motherboard temperature sensor as a proxy for overall system temperature. I know, that's not ideal and it's highly dependent on ambient temperature, but it's as close as I can get to a GPU temperature without relying on a (very inelegant and potentially unreliable) temperature probe.
The other temperature sensors aren't very responsive to the GPU, only the CPU or VRM.
The faster exhaust fan does mean that there is a bit more negative feedback on that sensor, so the maximal temperature readings should be lower than before. This will limit the fan speeds to something sane under normal conditions, while still providing headroom for faster speeds when needed.
It certainly is quieter than the old fan at the same speeds.
And it runs much cooler.
And the radiator fans are not running as hard as they used to be.
Speaking of exhaust fans... I wonder what the speed rating on the exhaust fan on my father's desktop is...
All I know is that it's a 92mm fan connected via the industry-standard 4-pin PWM connector, so I can replace it with a Noctua NF-A9 PWM.
...it's an AVC DS09225R12H. 92x25mm, 0.41A power. 3800 rpm, 60.5 cfm.
That's far faster than the NF-A9 PWM, so I highly doubt the Noctua fan is a suitable replacement.
(the Noctua fan is rated for 46.4 cfm)
I'm not sure the desktop is going to like a substantially slower fan than the stock OEM part.
It'll do in a pinch should the stock fan fail for whatever reason (it's a "hydraulic bearing", which almost certainly means a hydrodynamic or fluid dynamic bearing, so it should be very reliable), but Noctua needs to make a faster version of their NF-A9.
I wouldn't replace it unless there's a problem.
6:10 PM
... And that's why I'm installing Linux on all my personal computers as they get replaced. I don't use the default Windows apps, and I always end up using cross-platform open-source apps, like Firefox, Chromium, GIMP, VLC, etc
6:27 PM
it's one of the 'good' things about so much running in a browser
@djsmiley2k You might as well get a Chromebook...
/me looks at @Burgi
Android PC?
Chromebooks can run Android apps.
1 hour later…
7:49 PM
@bwDraco Some Chromebooks
Pass. I still have a need for offline use
02:00 - 20:0020:00 - 00:00

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