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11:09 PM
I'm thinking about building an NAS machine of my own but I simply lack the high-performance network infrastructure
I don't even have a proper router, just a couple of dumb WiFi switches
Perhaps in a few years time, I'll have more room to play around in and I can set up a much more sophisticated home network, with high-end Netgear Blackhawk router and a big storage server capable of scaling up to 8 drives with RAID 6 resilience
...and I'll be using high-reliability SAS or SATA enterprise hard drives, along the lines of WD Re drives
I will spare no expense to obtain maximum reliability and scalability for current and future storage demands even if this means it'll cost thousands of dollars to build the system
 
@CanadianLuke - My pychi is very fragile today :$
Because I can't spell that word mainly.
 
@Ramhound Don't stress yourself too much. You might want to take a break.
 
@DragonLord - It just went over your head I see ;-)
swing and a miss ;-)
Now I have to figure out how to answer that question. The specifics of Seagates hybrid drives basically indicates its the same storage as a flash drive.
 
@DragonLord what sort of network do you have? If it's mainly for home use I've found that 1gig ethernet and wireless n are actually pretty good for it. I have a box with freenas, zfs and 3 hard drives that works really well
 
@Arthur Currently a simple WiFi n network
DSL modem acting as router, dumb WiFi switches including one extender
 
11:17 PM
Ah okay
 
Very slow connection (typical speeds of about 768 Kbps downstream, 128 Kbps upstream)
 
Ah, Gotchya
Yeah.. well, i guess there isn't much yo can do there
 
We're far from the DSLAM, and faster connections cost way too much
 
What country?
is it just rural?
 
New York metro area
Not quite in the city, though
 
11:20 PM
Alright I need a technology lesson apparently. MLC-NAND should still have a estimated maximum number of writes to a single cell right?
 
FiOS costs way too much and we're planning on moving soon (can't disclose further details on that)
@Ramhound Depends on process technology—19-21nm MLC NAND is good for about 3000 cycles
If only there was a connection that was moderately fast (around 10 Mbps) at a reasonable price...
 
Alright what the heck; Looking a a Samsung SSD, V-NAND drive, doens't indicate the number of expected of limetime writes.
 
@Ramhound The future of flash memory is V-NAND
 
Oh, I see it
150TBW
150 TB of data can be written
 
@Ramhound Warranty is for 150 TB for the SSD 850 PRO but expect to be able to put at least 6000 write cycles on it
 
11:23 PM
at least thats the warranty
 
The 150TB limit is only so that write-heavy enterprise use cases are not supported
You could conceivably put more than a petabyte of writes on the 512 GB version (the drive in my laptop) and still\ expect it to work
 
I see.
 
(There's about 3 PB of raw NAND endurance in the 512 GB drive, and even that number is likely to be an underestimate)
I'd trust it to a bare minimum of 600 TB of host writes, assuming 5x write amplification (which is extremely unusual in a client workload)
 
I still don't trust SSDs looks like I should think about it though but can't realsticly not have my 4TB and 8TB drives ;-(
 
Most client workloads have write amplification well below 2x
 
11:28 PM
Anyways. When you say a write cycle, from the simplest perspective possible, what does that mean?
 
@Ramhound One program-erase cycle on a block of the NAND
SSDs spread writes across the entire media to ensure that no single block gets undue wear
This answer should help:
4
A: How to securely delete files stored on a SSD?

DragonLordBecause of the nature of NAND flash memory, SSDs cannot directly overwrite data. Repeatedly overwriting a file before deleting it will not securely erase it on an SSD—the data would just be written elsewhere on the NAND. To understand why this is the case, it is necessary to explain how SSDs wor...

 
I deal with entirely different type of memory at work while nonvolatile, I don't believe its NAND although I could be mistaken. But even those had thousands of write cycles, and stuff its on, was before we had 2MB HDDs ;-)
But the diagram does help, thanks
 
This theoretically means that one full drive write is one program-erase cycle on all blocks, but because of write amplification, you generally cannot get the drive capacity's worth of writing in one P/E cycle on all blocks (unless you're using a SandForce-based drive, which uses compression)
 
ugh. For some reason my torrent client won't connect to anything all of a sudden.
 
...although write amplification is typically well under 2x under normal client workloads with plenty of free space or over-provisioning
 
11:33 PM
@Ramhound: Prolly eeproms?
 
Aye;
 
I would have said the same. Probably EEPROMs.
 
Also, all storage dies.
 
Just took a system image backup earlier today
 
I have an SSD but have it backed up to a second system
Trying to design/spec out a fileserver so I can back up my storage drive too, but the drives I want are uncommon, and they seem to be out of stock/sold above RRP for preorder on the few places I can find them ><
 
11:36 PM
25 mins ago, by DragonLord
Perhaps in a few years time, I'll have more room to play around in and I can set up a much more sophisticated home network, with high-end Netgear Blackhawk router and a big storage server capable of scaling up to 8 drives with RAID 6 resilience
24 mins ago, by DragonLord
...and I'll be using high-reliability SAS or SATA enterprise hard drives, along the lines of WD Re drives
24 mins ago, by DragonLord
I will spare no expense to obtain maximum reliability and scalability for current and future storage demands even if this means it'll cost thousands of dollars to build the system
 
I am looking at 3 drives. Seagate 8tb ;p
 
@JourneymanGeek I assume you're looking for Seagate Enterprise Capacity...
 
Archive - REALLY cheap (their rrp is 260 usd for 8tb it seems, and retail seems ~300 right now). Reliability is not actually a factor since at that price, I can overbuild.
 
Ahh...
 
11:38 PM
The new Archive drives are for nearline use and are not all that reliable (no better than ordinary consumer drives)
You probably want RAID 6 or three-way RAID 1
 
for the price? I'll just get three, and RMA them as they fail ;p
naw, just going for jbod, and using mhdd to concanate them.
 
US$260 is really impressive for 8 TB of storage
Shingled magnetic recording (SMR) is a technique to increase capacity used in hard disk drive magnetic storage. Conventional hard drives record data by writing non-overlapping magnetic tracks parallel to each other, while shingled recording writes new tracks that overlap part of the previously written magnetic track, leaving the previous track thinner, allowing for higher track density. The tracks partially overlap similar to roof shingles. The overlapping-tracks architecture slows the writing process since writing to one track often overwrites adjacent tracks, and requires them to be rewritten...
Pretty impressive tech
Storage density at the cost of performance
 
So I found an article about come cMLC NAND that has 40,000 cycles. But its not specifically for Seagate. Could I extrapulate and say cMLC NAND would have more write cycles the your traditional SSD drive would have?
 
@DragonLord: As I see it, my bottleneck would be my network
@Ramhound: You're familiar with the SSD endurance tests right?
 
@Ramhound Current (and likely future) Samsung V-NAND is specified for 35,000 cycles, although the SMART data in the consumer-grade SSD 850 PRO indicates 6,000 cycles
 
11:42 PM
Not relevant with a SSHD.
Or I don't think it can be
 
I'd expect far more usable endurance although I'd replace the drive once the SMART specified endurance (per the wear leveling count) is exhausted
 
since when and how the NAND memory will be used will be dependent on the firmware ( yes I am trying to answer his question )
 
...and 3 PB of raw NAND endurance (assuming a 512 GB drive) translates to >1 PB of host writes under typical client workloads, where the write amplification shouldn't exceed 3x
That's practically impossible to exhaust under anything other than a write-heavy enterprise workload
Samsung claims that it has a 128 GB SSD 850 PRO with more than 8 PB of writes on it and it still works
 
Well its looks like how this SSHD really works is the SSD is used a very large cache dump
 
@Ramhound: same basic tech. An SSHD is just a normal hdd with a different cache setup
 
11:46 PM
It they specify both your typical size of cache and the NAND portion of it
 
Exhausting the endurance on the SSD 850 PRO under a typical client workload is just not a realistic possibility
 
Looking at a benchmark though and its clear what paralytically of it is.
I appreciate the crash course. I can formulate an answer based on this information.
 
!! s/cMLC/eMLC/g
 
@DragonLord That didn't make much sense. Use the !!/help command to learn more.
@DragonLord That didn't make much sense. Use the !!/help command to learn more.
@DragonLord So I found an article about come eMLC NAND that has 40,000 cycles. But its not specifically for Seagate. Could I extrapulate and say cMLC NAND would have more write cycles the your traditional SSD drive would have? (source)
 
Quick question
 
11:50 PM
@DragonLord So I found an article about come eMLC NAND that has 40,000 cycles. But its not specifically for Seagate. Could I extrapulate and say eMLC NAND would have more write cycles the your traditional SSD drive would have? (source)
 
How do I linkify an image?
 
Unless it's V-NAND, endurance that high can't be obtained with consumer-grade NAND
 
just use upload, or just the link
 
Well I have see inline screenshots which were also links
thats what I mean ;-)
 
ahh
No idea
 
11:53 PM
@Ramhound: ...although the Intel SSD 730 is the closest you can get to an enterprise SSD in a consumer-oriented package
 
What I am looking calling itself commercial grade though
 
@Ramhound That's odd
 
the specs for the seagate SSHD calls itself cMLC NAND
it then specifically mentions the c means commercial
"NAND flash Commercial Multilevel Cell
(cMLC)/size"
 
You get 20nm eMLC (MLC-HET), power-loss protection, full NAND die redundancy, and even end-to-end data path protection
The MLC-HET is why Intel is able to warrant the 480 GB SSD 730 drive for 128 TB of writes even though it uses planar NAND
 
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