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HNQ
HNQ
04:48
2
Q: What is the Mass obligation for Catholics when Christmas is on a Monday?

Peter TurnerThis year Christmas is on a Monday. My wife read in a neighboring parish's bulletin that we had to go to Mass on the Fourth Sunday of Advent (i.e. sometime Saturday night or Sunday Morning) and this greatly distressed my daughter who unfortunately wants maximum presents and minimum Mass for Chris...

 
10 hours later…
14:40
Of course catholic.chat has been known to be wrong ... from time to time ... dear oh dear
15:17
@PeterTurner Mass obligations seem to be serious topic among Catholics. Yesterday when I went to the "Advent procession", which turns out to be an Anglican tradition, the MC / host announced in the very beginning to apologize of possible misunderstanding that this event was inconsistently promoted "as a mass" but in fact it is not, and thus cannot be used to fulfill a mass attendance obligation. Fortunately, no-one immediately stood up and left trying to catch a late mass to make up for it šŸ˜Š.
@GratefulDisciple the Church only says there are 5 things you have to do - as opposed to the multitude of things you ought to believe - one of them is attend Mass on Sundays and Holy Days of Obligation, so it's pretty important. It's a lot easier to judge whether or not you've done a thing than believed a thing. And when there are gray areas, it complicates life.
15:44
@PeterTurner Seeing how many evangelicals don't actually do the kind of life that should follow what they believe (especially in areas of social action to relieve the suffering of the needy) make me lately see more wisdom in the 5 precepts as aid for spiritual life. In their defense, those that take spirituality seriously would be rigorous in their daily quiet time. I guess Protestants love choice and freedom, but too many abuse that to the detriment of their own spiritual condition.
Also in their defense, evangelicals actually do not have many things to believe either in order to be Christian, although they too often become argumentative and break unity because of secondary or even tertiary items to believe. In my opinion, among the few that they DO need to believe they neglect the anthropological aspects which Catholics, Eastern Orthodox, and LDS do much better.
I personally don't have problem with Mass on Sundays and Holy Days of Obligation. I actually prefer liturgical prayer compared with typical "concert style" evangelical worship, which I experienced back to back yesterday (I attended the Anglican-Catholic 1pm mass which turns out to be a "Said Mass", so the organist only accompanied the hymns. But I have to admit that yesterday's CM&A service sermon was much better than the Catholic homily one.
16:37
@PeterTurner The material you quoted from the Catechism does not say that Jesus paid the penalty for our sins. I don't think that is included in Catholic doctrine. Bearing iniquities is not the same as paying the penalty for iniquities.
17:29
@LeeWoofenden is there a difference between paying the penalty and atonement?
18:19
@PeterTurner Sorry to interject, but your question shows that you're not that aware of the debate between Lee and myself and @curiousdannii over the years. Atonement is a theory of the meaning of Christ's crucifixion and how it saves us. It may surprise most Christians including Catholics, but even the Catholic church doesn't endorse a particular theory! We need to accept Christ's deed, not a particular theory.
I have no wish to waddle into that touchy area with @LeeWoofenden again, so I'll leave you two alone unless I cannot resist šŸ˜Š.
18:50
@GratefulDisciple yep, I definitely glossed over all that. I can understand the Church not endorsing a theory it has no stake in. It's like asking whether the Church endorses the Jerry B Jenkins or the Tim Lahaye doctrine of the rapture.
In any event, I was gonna follow up with Aquinas' newadvent.org/summa/4048.htm#article2 but maybe that's already been tried? I have no idea why this is something worth debating. If you didn't believe Christ paid the penalty for our sins, wouldn't you not call Jesus the redeemer?
19:14
@PeterTurner I think we need to interpret what St. Thomas meant by "atonement" in the ST III Q.48 A.2 you quoted. He seems to use the word not as a theological topic but as a particular meaning of Christ's Passion, so implicit in his use is a particular meaning already, which is possibly related to the meaning that , but interpreting St. Thomas can be subtle, so I wouldn't directly say he's voicing the substituion/satisfaction theory that @LeeWoofenden's attacking,
@PeterTurner Rephrase (since my 2 minute editing limit expired): I think we need to interpret carefully what St. Thomas meant by "atonement" in the ST III Q.48 A.2 you quoted. He seems to use the word not as a theological topic but already as a particular meaning of Christ's Passion. But interpreting St. Thomas can be subtle, so I wouldn't directly say he's voicing the substitution/satisfaction theory that @LeeWoofenden's attacking.
For example, here's a lifelong Thomist scholar Eleonore Stump in her recent 2019 book Atonement that emphatically says how St. Thomas Aquinas's theory of atonement is NOT Anselmian. Her book receives many positive reviews including by those who disagree with her, such as this one.
Here Eleonore Stump is in very broad agreement with @LeeWoofenden that "the Anselmian kind of interpretation is in fact incompatible with Godā€™s loveā€ (p. 80). But the devil is in the detail, for I'm sure Eleonore Stump also acknowledges some notion of "payment" for our sins. Hence my preference to see that a full-orbed meaning of Jesus's passion HAS to be multi-faceted, which @LeeWoofenden dispute but I have no desire to engage him further on this score.
20:04
It's tough because you always have to consider the words that are not said in these matters.
@PeterTurner In answering "why this is something worth debating", I think it's because to fully appreciate the greatest work God has done on earth, it IS worth debating, maybe not to cause division but to have Jesus's passion more meaningful to us, and hence increase our love for God. So in a sense I understand Lee's passion to condemn Anselmian's theory, although in that passion Lee misrepresents Anslem.
If Lee wants to engage Anselm at a scholarly level, Gavin Ortlund (who I have been watching a lot lately) wrote a book on Anselm: Anselm's Pursuit of Joy: A Commentary on the Proslogion (2020), although possibly not covering Cur Deus Homo which contains his satisfaction theory.
@PeterTurner On "Jesus the redeemer", "redeem" can have many meanings. One forgotten meaning is redeem us from the slavery of sin that St. Paul talked about in Romans 7. We are now slaves of righteousness who put Christ's yoke (a physical analogy) so we move where Jesus moves (as partner cow ploughing the field), which is a lighter yoke than the Pharisee's yoke with too many rules. So redeemer as paying for our sin does NOT exhaust all ways in which we are redeemed.
 
1 hour later…
21:42
Does anyone know about publishing in theological magazines?
0
Q: How long does it take to publish in a magazine?

David_AveHow long does it take to publish in a magazine? I have had a piece under considerationā€”with a fair number of emails and discussions with the editorā€”for five months with the editor still on the fence about accepting it. I am planning to re-inquire about its status (it's been a month since the last...

 
1 hour later…
22:56
@Laurel Not first hand, nor second hand. But looking at 2 major Christian magazines, they have quite a detailed guideline including the vetting process they do: Christianity Today says 3 weeks (with special consideration for author-imposed deadline), First Things says 4 weeks (with invitation to send a follow-up query).
Another idea for your OP is to ask well-published authors who have previously published to various journals and magazines such as Roger Olson who also maintains a blog here where he is VERY RESPONSIVE to comments.
@GratefulDisciple Sounds like you could post an answer with that ;)

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