The Upper Room

GratefulDisciple

2:28 PM

@curiousdannii Yes, that's certainly what I hear from sermons in various denominations in Protestant churches. The controlling typology seems to be the Olive Tree metaphor in Romans 9-11. But in retrospect, wouldn't that led to supersessionism? Do "people of God" = "Church", or "people of God" = faithful Israel + body-of-Christ (body-of-Christ = Church = those united with Christ by baptism and/or faith)? In the latter formula we thus stay true that the Mosaic covenant remains an option.

I can be persuaded to the argument that for Gentiles there is only one option: salvation through Christ, but if you are a physical descendant of Abraham you have two options although Jesus's covenant is the BETTER covenant as argued in the NT. That way we don't have a problem of God having to revoke the old covenant.

Yes, Heb 8:13 says the first one is "obsolete" (KJV translates "he hath made the first old") and the old is "about to pass away" (CSB) / "ready to vanish away". I think the question is WHEN; is it already or not yet?

I think body-of-Christ = Church is cleaner, and in the Catholic sacramental system (where the invisible is made visible) the Visible Church is even more obvious (as a subset of the Invisible Church which includes Protestants and "anonymous" Christians). I think Catholics and Baptists can agree that only those who are conscious that they are united with Christ as His body (and thus repentant, willing to be put under the yoke of sanctification, and join a church) are the only true visible members.

If we agree on the identification of Body-of-Christ and Church, then Mary was the first member of the Church, the apostles to whom Christ breathed the Spirit in John 20:22 were next, and the Pentecost is visible sign of the Holy Spirit gifting the apostles who were already "born-again" on Resurrection day. The rest of the Church got built up since Pentecost with missions where the Holy Spirit went wherever the apostles went, as they baptized new believers and reside in those new converts.

GratefulDisciple

2:58 PM

So as Jesus went about in his earthly mission the Head of the Church (and the Holy Spirit) was already building up His body. Maybe even John the Baptist & Nicodemus & thief-on-the-cross were even earlier members than the apostles (baptism by desire generated by faith). Maybe the meaning of Matt 20:52-53 is that when Jesus visited Hades right after his death, he preached the gospel to the "saints who had fallen asleep" they were resurrected with him and by definition become members of the church.

GratefulDisciple

3:10 PM

It is also cleaner with reference to the eucharist. Both mystical body and physical body of Jesus were already operating in Jesus's earthly mission. Thus when he says he is the bread from heaven and that we are to eat his flesh to have life (John 6:53-56) we are supposed to literally eat the eternal Passover lamb so we continue to receive spiritual nourishment and "remain" united with his body. This coheres nicely with the Vine metaphor where "remain" is the keyword in John 15:1-8.

冥王 Hades

8:25 PM

Huh, he isn’t here

GratefulDisciple

@冥王Hades Looking for me? or @Matthew ?

冥王 Hades

@GratefulDisciple oh yeah it was you

Matt hasn’t spoken to me in months

GratefulDisciple

What's on your mind, O Hades ?

冥王 Hades

I pissed him off and trolled him too much apparently

GratefulDisciple

BTW, if you really want to watch solar eclipse, hopefully that's a good time for you to take vacation next April to your hometown.

冥王 Hades

8:30 PM

@GratefulDisciple I plan to wipe out humanity. However, like my brother Poseidon once spared virtuous Noah, I shall spare you as well.

GratefulDisciple

@冥王Hades That's great, although if you do attempt to do so, I believe Jesus would have prevented you. My family have been memorizing Ephesians 1-2. Eph 1:21 :

> Now he is far above any ruler or authority or power or leader or anything else -- not only in this world but also in the world to come.

Also in the next verse:

冥王 Hades

@GratefulDisciple Nah he’s a great friend of mine, he said I can do it as long as I spare the virtuous

GratefulDisciple

> God has put all things under the authority of Christ and has made him head over all things for the benefit of the church.

冥王 Hades

Also I run the entire Underworld, Hell included

GratefulDisciple

And the "God" here is the being defined by St. Anselm: "a being than which nothing greater can be conceived". Even Jesus (a glorified human being) was already that powerful, let alone God as St. Anselm defines him.

@冥王Hades in Christian "mythology" Hell is not the same as Hades. Hades is the temporary place for the dead before Christ came.

冥王 Hades

8:35 PM

@GratefulDisciple Yeah I know that, that’s why I’m not putting them in Hell right now. That judgement is for the Jesus man to make, not me

GratefulDisciple

After Christ, Hades is empty, the occupants moved to either purgatory, Hell, or Heaven; all awaiting resurrection of the body.

@冥王Hades Oh I see. You know the Christian "mythology" well. Have fun while it lasts then :-).

冥王 Hades

@GratefulDisciple I run these places too, and the entrance to Hades itself is guarded by my pet Cereberus, you should meet him sometime

GratefulDisciple

@冥王Hades Care to let us know the GPS coordinate of the entrance?

冥王 Hades

@GratefulDisciple Hard to say, it exists beyond this realm, the normal Euclidean coordinates just don’t work there

GratefulDisciple

For the contemporary of Jesus (as referred in Matt 16:18), the "Gates to Hades" is near a cave in Caesarea Phillippi.

@冥王Hades No portal, or something like Stargate ?

冥王 Hades

8:40 PM

@GratefulDisciple Well, do you have the large amounts of dark energy needed to open a wormhole? If not. Then no unfortunately

GratefulDisciple

(btw, I love the Stargate movie, but the TV Series based on it is rather boring).

冥王 Hades

@GratefulDisciple That reminds me, how far have you progressed with math?

GratefulDisciple

@冥王Hades Have been busy with "wife projects". But that's an excuse. I have been distracted :-(.

冥王 Hades

@GratefulDisciple sigh

See this is why I grew colder and more melancholic towards humanity

and people think I’m evil??

GratefulDisciple

@冥王Hades I know. If you see this chat room's recent transcript, I got hooked on conversion stories.

冥王 Hades

8:43 PM

This is why I’m never getting married by the way

GratefulDisciple

@冥王Hades I read your comment about laughing when someone trip over and the Japanese bystanders rushed to help.

冥王 Hades

@GratefulDisciple oh yeah I remember that. It was hilarious

it was at a ramen restaurant

GratefulDisciple

@冥王Hades Yeah.. probably you're not ready, not until you have compassion. Even when I was married more than 10 years ago, I was a lot more self-absorbed my wife complained to me.

My wife got hurt when I went to the hospital for her scheduled C-section with a book to read.

冥王 Hades

@GratefulDisciple Yeah. It takes a kind of maturity and sense of responsibility that I know I lack. I wouldn’t wanna put a kind woman through torture just because

GratefulDisciple

@冥王Hades Did someone slip over spilled ramen on the floor?

冥王 Hades

8:45 PM

And well I kinda hate the idea of any woman taking the place of my deceased girlfriend

GratefulDisciple

@冥王Hades BTW I'm truly sorry about your girlfriend. Must been hard. Harder than my unreturned infatuation in my high school years, although it lasted a few years.

冥王 Hades

@GratefulDisciple The waiter was carrying around 3 bowls to serve, I think he tripped over his shoelaces and fell, obviously creating a mess. The staff, and then the customers, got up to help him and clean the place.

@GratefulDisciple why is that hurtful? I’d probably take my Nintendo Switch just so I don’t get bored

GratefulDisciple

@冥王Hades Wow.... 3 bowls of Japanese ramen. Quite a mess, esp. if the place is cramped.... any of the contents landed on a customer's hair?

冥王 Hades

@GratefulDisciple No he thankfully avoided that at the last moment which is pretty impressive or else someone would’ve gone to the hospital for some serious burn injury, the ramen is piping hot

GratefulDisciple

@冥王Hades Because she was anxious and wanted me to shower my attention on her so she doesn't feel alone when facing the upcoming surgery.

冥王 Hades

8:50 PM

@GratefulDisciple Would giving someone their attention make them not feel anxious? The surgery has to happen anyway, it’s inevitable. The closest thing I can thing of is me holding my mother’s arm when I got the COVID vaccine

GratefulDisciple

@冥王Hades Let me give you a piece of advice: find a girl who has the same food liking that you do. There are a lot of "unhealthy" food that my wife frowns upon me to enjoy, including ramen: Japanese or otherwise, unless it's organic, no MSG, not too salty, etc.

冥王 Hades

@GratefulDisciple yeah I want someone who also enjoys the food I do, would make dates a lot less of a headache than they need to be

GratefulDisciple

@冥王Hades It's like entering an ordeal together. This is important during pregnancy. For some women, their husbands having psychological-resonance of pain is a source of comfort (there is a term for this), strange as it seems for us men.

Couvade syndrome

Couvade syndrome, also called sympathetic pregnancy, is a proposed condition in which an expectant father experiences some of the same symptoms and behavior as his pregnant partner. These most often include major weight gain, altered hormone levels, morning nausea, and disturbed sleep patterns. In more extreme cases, symptoms can include labor pains, fatigue, postpartum depression, and nosebleeds. The labor pain symptom is commonly known as sympathy pain. The source of Couvade syndrome is a matter of debate. Some believe it to be a psychosomatic condition, while others believe it may have biological...

冥王 Hades

@GratefulDisciple I do believe you but boy does it sound confusing. It’s almost like “I’m in pain/about to be in a lot of pain, so please act like you’re in pain too, it makes me feel better”

GratefulDisciple

@冥王Hades The attention is not literally "on them" (as though we are watching them performing on stage), but directed at the object of their anxiety: the upcoming surgery.

@冥王Hades Yes, I don't get it either. I would rather directing them away from the anxiety / the pain, distracting them.

冥王 Hades

8:56 PM

@GratefulDisciple if I were you I’d have offered to let her play with my Nintendo Switch instead

GratefulDisciple

@冥王Hades Coming from you, it's a very generous offer, although your future wife would surely take it the wrong way, unless she is also a gamer.

冥王 Hades

@GratefulDisciple It is a generous offer, I’m risking my entire game progress just so she could feel better. If my wife rejected that being ungrateful I wouldn’t be happy with her

GratefulDisciple

@冥王Hades Yes, we men are different. Sometimes when I'm anxious myself, my wife would ask if there is anything she can do. When I said to leave me alone, she doesn't seem happy.

冥王 Hades

@GratefulDisciple My girlfriend was like this, it feels like you’re narrating my story. She’d always take it the wrong way when I just wanted to be left alone for a while. I wasn’t even angry or upset I just needed solitude

GratefulDisciple

@冥王Hades Yeah. It's like she's hurt because she cannot be useful while the best she can do for me is to let me concentrate and be alone with my thoughts and feelings.

It's a good thing that sometimes I process things by playing the piano, then she would NOT feel hurt because she can "hear" me process things through the pieces I'm playing.

冥王 Hades

9:01 PM

Whichever God she met after her death I hope she’s happy, whether it’s in the fields of Elysium or the Christian Heaven.

GratefulDisciple

@冥王Hades Sure. We certainly want her to be in a happy place.

冥王 Hades

@GratefulDisciple I’d probably ask “how about a nice bowl of ramen”? That would help me and it would probably make her feel like she did something good for me

GratefulDisciple

I met a new guy at church who a few years ago lost his wife to cancer. I also learned that he lost her daughter when she was in her late 20s. Quite devastating that a man has to bury his wife and daughter. I surely don't want that to happen to me.

@冥王Hades Thanks, I'll do that next time, though I have to request from her (rather limited and healthy) menu. She loves to cook.

冥王 Hades

@GratefulDisciple I know a man who had to bury his mother, wife, daughter and even granddaughter

GratefulDisciple

@冥王Hades Wow, I don't know how he could cope. BTW did I tell you of my uncle who had to bury his 2 year old son due to a rare illness? He is a doctor too. It shook his faith. He is no longer Christian now. Is quite bitter of his time being a "cultural Christian" at church before he finally quit. Felt they just want his money.

冥王 Hades

9:07 PM

@GratefulDisciple The man I talked about is also quite bitter and cynical, and I don’t blame him or your uncle even for being that way

He may even feel like he failed as a doctor and it may affect the way he treats his future patients, irs extremely dangerous

GratefulDisciple

@冥王Hades Yes. But fortunately (or unfortunately?) he finds satisfaction in worldly achievement in medical field and in investment. He is a rich guy.

冥王 Hades

@GratefulDisciple My mother is an anesthesiologist and she feels extremely saddened and needs to take a break whenever one of the patients in the care of her medical team passes away

GratefulDisciple

@冥王Hades No, no. It is quite unrelated, since it's an incurable disease. We're talking about 1970s here. Maybe it's curable now.

冥王 Hades

Ah okay, nearly 50 years ago. Yeah it’s probably curable now

GratefulDisciple

@冥王Hades Being an anesthesiologist is an art! Highly paid for good reason. Good for your mom. My wife was very happy with her anesthesiologist during her C-section. But yes, it can be hard when a patient dies.

Maybe it's harder for your mom because a good anesthesiologist is especially conversant with the patient because she has to monitor the right dose, especially in C-section because you want the patient to be conscious.

冥王 Hades

9:13 PM

@GratefulDisciple she may end up being my anesthesiologist if or when I decide to get a surgery, it’s gonna help because I get really anxious when I’m at a hospital, precisely because I can talk to her and relax while she’s monitoring me, as you described

GratefulDisciple

@冥王Hades Yes, I hope they let your mom do that, keeping in mind the general rule that a doctor cannot treat his/her own immediate family members. But this may be only for pediatrician or primary care physicians.

冥王 Hades

@GratefulDisciple At least I can rest easy knowing I’m in safe hands, you know, the very hands that carried me for several years when I couldn’t walk

GratefulDisciple

@冥王Hades Yes. At least if you got operated in the same hospital your mom works at, she would know the members of the medical team and they would make sure to do their very best for you. When my wife had that C-Section, it was at the hospital where my dad used to work.

冥王 Hades

@GratefulDisciple Thankfully the surgery I was referring to is considered rather minor where not much can go wrong. Hopefully I won’t be needing any major surgeries

GratefulDisciple

@冥王Hades That's great. Anyway you're still young. I consider myself still young too, my last medical check up shows nothing to worry about, except I need to lose some weight.

Well, it's nice chatting with you. It's 6am in Tokyo; what time is first your class?

冥王 Hades

9:21 PM

@GratefulDisciple I’m heading out to get some breakfast, the first lecture starts at about 7:30

After that I have a 2 hour lab and then I’m free for most of the day

GratefulDisciple

@冥王Hades Yum. Breakfast is my favorite meal. What are you having?

冥王 Hades

@GratefulDisciple Dorayaki

i can’t get enough of those

GratefulDisciple

@冥王Hades I have to try it the next time I go to a Japanese bakery. Looks great.

Hope you have a good day. TTYL.

冥王 Hades

Seiya later

curiousdannii

@GratefulDisciple Yes obviously the church is the body of Christ. But also the bride of Christ, and all the other images. Those don't tell us when it began.

@GratefulDisciple Everyone has only one option, because the old covenant can't save, all it can do is prepare us for the new covenant.

@GratefulDisciple What even is the argument that Mary should be considered the first member of the church?

We're going back to Japan in Jan, can't wait! But it's annoying that very few places are open for breakfast. They don't have cafe culture like in Australia. :(

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