12:32 AM
@fredsbend ok, here are some metrics - number of ancient texts and artifacts attesting to the event, number of adherants that claim the event is important to them, evidence of time taken to subvert previously prevailing paradigm, extent to which quotes influence current and historical languages, amount of people willing to adopt a calendar based on the event. Some of these things are easier to measure than others, but they all have a great deal more significance to our lives than the amount...
There are differences between social sciences and natural sciences no doubt, but there is still evidence regarding the former that can be measured in different ways and thus the knowledge that we gain from doing so is not necessarily categorically different from the type of knowledge we gain from studying events of natural history.
2 hours later…
2:20 AM
I've two questions deleted. I've edited those two questions. Please let me know who can help me to undelete these two questions. @fredsbend said I need to ask to 10k users. Any help? Thank you. meta.christianity.stackexchange.com/questions/4537/…
16 hours later…
6:00 PM
1) I'm quite familiar with all that stuff that helps us determine if a text is reliable and if it attempts to chronicle real events. But you don't measure that stuff, you count it. Sounds semantic, but there is a very significant difference.
2) I think you're getting off track regarding the value we gain from learning about craters compared to the value from learning about Christ.
It was your analogy, first, and the point you were making is that you learn about them in the same ways, with the same processes. I denied that and called it a category error.
So it doesn't make sense to compare the value we get from learning about each. They aren't even in the same category.
We have some records and things that help us paint a picture of what happened at the Kennedy assassination. There's several theories, some are stronger than others.
Compare that to the Tunguska event. [This is not a perfect analogy to the ancient impacts because this actually has witnesses, so let's just ignore that part for now.]
There's all kinds of exact things you can measure to determine details about the impact, and they have which you can read about in the wiki article.
Compared to the Kennedy assassination, there's not much to actually measure. They did their forensics and now we are let with those reports.
I would concede that if two such events occurred today, we can do a good deal of measuring on both, but the longer between the two events the less there is to measure on the assassination while the impact site will remain there for a very long time.
Through all the words of Sacred Scripture, God speaks only one single Word, his one Utterance in whom he expresses himself completely:
You recall that one and the same Word of God extends throughout Scripture, that it is one and the same Utterance that resounds in the mouths of all the sacred writers, since he who was in the beginning God with God has no need of separate syllables; for he is not subject to time.
For this reason, the Church has always venerated the Scriptures as she venerates the Lord’s Body.
You recall that one and the same Word of God extends throughout Scripture, that it is one and the same Utterance that resounds in the mouths of all the sacred writers, since he who was in the beginning God with God has no need of separate syllables; for he is not subject to time.
For this reason, the Church has always venerated the Scriptures as she venerates the Lord’s Body.
6:54 PM
7:47 PM
1 hour later…
8:56 PM
@AdithiaKusno What does teaching the Trinity have to do with consistency in a remnant church teaching? SDA is a remnant theology. They believe the truth was kept since the beginning by at least a few. JW are the same.
LDS, on the other hand is a restoration theology. They believe that there were none that believed correctly for a time (a long time actually).
@AdithiaKusno Matt's reply covers it. If that's what you mean, then it is in contrast with what you are saying.
@AdithiaKusno Actually, this is band wagon kind of reasoning. History is written by the winners. I'm sure you've heard that before.
For seventh day keeping, there is plenty of record of it being kept throughout history, and oppressed by first day keepers.
@fredsbend At the time I linked it, I didn't know. But now I found out it's "circumstances of revelation," not "reasons to get off."
@Mr.Bultitude Arabic is a strange language. A lot of figurative phrases, rather than just saying what it is. Someone once told me that the typical morning greeting is literally "The morning is the light", which has some deep meaning I forgot about it.
@AdithiaKusno Here's a link from that SDA answer. It's filled with quotes from Catholic documents. SDA like to point to this to justify their beliefs.
> The Adventists are the only body of Christians with the Bible as their teacher, who can find no warrant in its pages for the change of day from the seventh to the first. Hence their appellation, "Seventh-day Adventists.
> The (Catholic) Church changed the observance of the Sabbath to Sunday by right of the divine, infallible authority given to her by her Founder, Jesus Christ. The Protestant claiming the Bible to be the only guide of faith, has no warrant for observing Sunday. In this matter, the Seventh-day Adventist is the only consistent Protestant.
@fredsbend Though other Protestants would say they're wrong, and that either 1) Sabbaths are part of the Old Covenant and Sunday-worship is a matter of conscience, or 2) Sunday-worship was instituted by Christ. There are exegetical reasons for either position, and neither party needs to appeal to Rome in any fashion.
9:38 PM
9:49 PM
@fredsbend Commonly cited are Acts 20:7 demonstrating that the disciples were gathered together for worship on Sunday, 1 Corinthians 16:1 telling the church to gather a collection on Sunday, and Revelation 1:10 speaking of "the Lord's day" -- which in the Didache appears to be a specific day of the week, and which clearly refers to Sunday in second-century Christian literature. (This is not an appeal to tradition, but to evidence of what the writer of Revelation may have meant.)
There is also another argument, which says that Christ's rising from the dead instituted a new creation; you can also see in both Testaments an eschatological dimension to Sabbath observance, such that Jesus allowed the church to "enter his rest" by dying for it. It then makes sense that a commemoration of that rest would occur on the day of the week that it was instituted, in the same way that the Sabbath of the Old Covenant was commemorated the day of the week that God rested after creation.
@Mr.Bultitude I was really hoping for a quote from the gospels, but okay. Yeah, I know these verses and reasons too, but I don't think they are any weaker or stronger for the other side. However, there is the problem of the Sabbath keeping being a commandment, right there next to idolatry and murder, so when I was Christian I tended to think that the Sabbath was indeed saturday and always will be.
@MattGutting both are identical in nature. If not you're committing Gnostic's plethora of Logoi. In Catholic Scripture and Christ are identical in nature. Both are the one Word of God. Is this modalism? No, because we worship the Logos incarnate but not Scripture. Why? Check my question
10:08 PM
10:12 PM
1 hour later…
11:17 PM
Truth claim is completely different. We claim to hold the truth because we're the continuation of that historical Christianity. This is truth claim not historical claim. We use historical claim but that only validate that what we believe is substantiate by the early Church not that what we believe is true. Different
Mormon can claim that historic Mormons believed Joseph Smith Jr is a true prophet of God. But that doesn't mean he was God's prophet.
The burden of proof is on Protestant who argue that Catholic Church betray the faith of the Fathers.
One only need to check Assyrian Church, Copts, and EO to see that what we as Catholics believe is accepted universally by those separated brethren.
This doesn't make what we believe is true. It only validate that historically what we as Catholics believe is substantiated by history
From historical claim to truth claim there is a gap. The only bridge is faith, nothing else. This is why any religious belief is utter none sense for agnostics.
So when I talked to Protestants I just simply refer to them that the Fathers prayed to Theotokos and they were celibates.
Jews use the same arguments I've stated above and show that historically Christianity is total novelty. No Jews eat pork or allow uncircumcision. Even St. Paul circumcised St. Timothy. And before he went to Rome he offered sacrifice in Jerusalem.
History can't be used to validate truth. Christianity assumed new revelation. No more circumcision and no more dietary laws. Islam assumed new revelation. Mormon assumed new revelation.
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The first case of prayer to the departed saints is documented in the divine liturgy. In the divine liturgy of St. James the Just the priest pray,
[G]rant that our offering may be acceptable, sanctified by the Holy Spirit, as a propitiation for our transgressions and the errors of the people; ...
history is about what they believed back then. what they believed back then could be right or wrong. history says nothing about the truthfulness of it. it only rely what happened, nothing more. history can't bring people to Christianity much less bring people to agnosticism. history can compel and give warrant but nothing more.
the winners do write history. google the 30,000 people killed by st justinian or 10,000 monks killed by st theophilus of alexandria. how do we know if such history is true? we can't know history for sure but we can have a warrant that about particular history by comparing it from multiple sources. i give one example, prayer to the virgin mary. ignore catholicism and you can compare to EO, copts, and assyrians. all pray to her. that is an example to warrant a particular history.
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