The Upper Room

@HedgeMage Gotcha. Had it pop up a bit earlier, which actually was what I wanted anyways. Currently have a lively and in my mind cordial discussion about predestination :)

HedgeMage

:)

brb

returns

Roland Taylor

is here but listening to tv

^--- that picture is eerily relevant to an earlier conversation :)

@HedgeMage I'm free now, program finished :)

HedgeMage

1:28 AM

@RolandTaylor Welcome back.

Roland Taylor

Thanks

What was it you wanted to talk to me about again (I forgot :P)?

HedgeMage

@RolandTaylor You had asked whether my Catholic upbringing and/or the violence I experienced living in Texas had given me an aversion to Jesus, and I had begun to explain that I don't have an aversion to Jesus, that because my tradition makes no proscription as to worship my incompatibilities with Christianity were largely social/intellectual... then life interrupted.

Roland Taylor

Ahh

So, do you believe in God/Jesus/gods/deities/me* (bow down and worship my awesomeness)/nothing at all?

*just kidding about the me part obviously.

HedgeMage

My tradition's rules dictate nothing about god/gods at all -- I could worship Jesus if I wanted without breaking any rules... my personal belief is that every religion swears they are the One Right Way, and that despite being mortals they are the only people who know the nature and intentions of God/gods: I don't buy it. There is nothing to show me who's right, and I'm not keen on playing Russian Roulette with my soul.

So, I'll happily spend my time doing and being good (in the best fashion that can be logically determined), and one of three things will happen:

1) There is no God/afterlife, so at least I spent my time well.

2) There is a kind/just God who will care more for what I've done than for the self-absorbed sycophants who are just going through the motions (the majority in any church/temple/etc).

Roland Taylor

or... 3) God is just and kind, and loving, but can't force you to be saved His way if you don't want to, and even if it breaks his own heart, must let you face the consequences of that.

free will can suck at times :/

HedgeMage

1:39 AM

3) God is really only concerned with having people pad his ego through worship, and my life is at least a decent punch in the nose to someone who has atrocious priorities. I'll burn, maybe, but picking from even major religions gives me less than a 10% shot at not burning anyway.

wax eagle

@HedgeMage this sounds like a reverse Pascal's wager, although I don't believe his logic holds up any longer...to many options.

Roland Taylor

lol 4) God is less concerned with padding his ego and more concerned with giving His children (mankind) a chance to have everything they want/need - but can't if they don't want Him to.

HedgeMage

@RolandTaylor If God were that worried about me following his path he'd give me some indication as to which he wanted me to choose. There are hundreds (even if you only count big-ish ones) of One Right Ways out there, all of them equally arbitrary from the perspective of someone who is willing to admit she does not know the heart and mind of God.

@waxeagle exactly -- Pascal's wager only works for a binary choice: believe/worship or do not. It doesn't work with 100 choices.

Roland Taylor

There has always been one way to God. In fact it pays to do some deep research on various world cultures and beliefs, they all point back to one unified origin. The problem is, as usual, sinful man wants his own way, so he creates "religions"; a way to get to God without God, so to speak.

HedgeMage

@RolandTaylor I never said I don't want God -- I said I won't assume that what some institution tells me is the will of God is. If God has something he wants me to know, he's quite capable of pointing it out. Else I'll use the brain i was born with and find my own way.

@RolandTaylor Isn't it more than a little arrogant to claim to know the nature and will of God in the first place? (I'm not sure of a less argumentative way to say this, but it is an earnest question.)

Roland Taylor

1:43 AM

@HedgeMage I think it's simple really: God has given us His word in a book, though much debated. I can't say I know it all, or get it all right, but at least I can say I'm trying.

HedgeMage

@RolandTaylor Everyone has a holy book -- why choose to believe that one over the others.

Roland Taylor

@HedgeMage it only sounds arrogant, until you actually know God for yourself.

wax eagle

@HedgeMage yes it certainly is. What we can say is that we believe the Bible is divinely inspired and as such we can believe that it presents the truth. The interpretation of that truth is at best flawed. Thankfully my tradition suggest that only a work of the spirit can convince someone. We are here to be instruments, but we don't cause it.

Roland Taylor

@HedgeMage the moment you stop looking for why why why why why why why, and approach everything with, hmm let's take a look at this, it will become clear.

@waxeagle yes, that is true too. I'm really not trying to convert Hedge here, just trying to play my part out of genuine (don't shoot!) love for humanity (including Hedge :P).

brb

HedgeMage

I'm fine with religious debate... if I feel like you've crossed the line I'll say so. Don't advocate murder, political or economic oppression, rape, and so on and I'm sure we'll be fine.

Roland Taylor

1:49 AM

Back

Oh btw, there is a verse that says, any man who comes to God must believe that He is.

If you don't, you really won't be able to experience/hear from/communicate with Him.

HedgeMage

My tradition has a concept called "natural law". This is not in the neopagan sense that Nature is a Goddess who makes laws about stuff. In our tradition, the idea is basically that the world is what it is, and you can try to pretend otherwise, but if you go about life that way, what is is going to smack you down in a very unpleasant way, not because someone wants it to, but because it's how the world works.

For example, I could choose to believe in the Christian God, or in the Wiccan Goddess and Lord, or in the Roman pantheon, or any number of other things. I might be right or wrong, but my belief does not change what is.

Roland Taylor

Interesting. So then it would be fair to say, that if God is who the Bible says He is, that failure to respond the correct way will eventually result in a smack down?

HedgeMage

Yes, but not in the "God is sorry but you fail he's sending you to Hell" way... more like, if you fail to understand the world around you, or worse -- believe what you want to believe regardless of whether it is true -- you'll get into trouble because you will be playing by the wrong set of rules.

Roland Taylor

God doesn't "send" you to hell...

that's a sad statement a lot of Christians make, but it's really not true

it's your choice to either accept salvation or reject it

HedgeMage

@RolandTaylor It's an oft-repeated meme, whether true or not. I was merely trying to point out that it isn't what I was getting at.

Roland Taylor

1:55 AM

if you reject it, then you go to hell because, well, you don't want to be saved

wax eagle

@RolandTaylor what Bible are you reading?

Roland Taylor

@waxeagle would you like for us to do some digging?

remember "hell was not made for man"?

HedgeMage

I have to wonder how a just God would blame people for not knowing which of the 100s of options out there is His One Right Way.

Roland Taylor

I could get something more direct, but I don't think I should need to unless we are planning to do this university style (which I am not)

@HedgeMage he doesn't.

in fact, God commands His people to go into all the world and preach the gospel (good news) of His Kingdom

HedgeMage

@RolandTaylor A basic tenet of most (but not all) faiths is that he does.

Roland Taylor

1:57 AM

and to make disciples of all men

@HedgeMage that's a basic made up junk of most humans...

HedgeMage

"Comply or burn." "We are the Borg^H^H^H Church and we will assimilate you." <-- said 100% in fun, DO NOT take seriously.

@RolandTaylor So if you aren't in the "worship according to the One Right Way or be damned" camp -- what, in your view, makes one "saved"?

Roland Taylor

@HedgeMage LOL@Borg church :D

@HedgeMage salvation is by grace, through faith in Jesus.

it's that simple

of course, we could collegiate that...

"Salvation is by redemptive propitiation of our sin by the death, burial and resurrection of Jesus, of Nazareth, born of a virgin through the Holy Spirit... crowd falls asleep... yada, yada, yada, bla, bla, bla..."

not that such a long explanation does not have it's place mind you ;)...

HedgeMage

@RolandTaylor If it is through faith in Jesus, then what of the people who have faith in him as they choose to see him, not as he is, and do evil in his name?

I can make you a list, there are a lot of nuts out there now and throughout history doing clearly evil things under Christ's banner.

wax eagle

@HedgeMage those are the folks who bastardize the faith, similar to the extremist mulims

HedgeMage

@waxeagle I agree. My question was simply, under @RolandTaylor's theology, what happens to them?

C. Ross

2:05 AM

@HedgeMage I would presume they burn in hell

Roland Taylor

@HedgeMage you do know that there are scriptures regarding how God will deal with people who do such things right?

wax eagle

@HedgeMage I hesitate to call them true believers. If the aren't they burn like everyone else. If they are then I'm not sure what to say on that subject. For instance, some traditions believe Judas will be in heaven (I've heard a sermon on it actually).

C. Ross

You can judge a tree by it's fruit and all

Roland Taylor

God is more angry with them than you are...

HedgeMage

@RolandTaylor There are, but they can be twisted a few different ways depending on one's creativity.

Roland Taylor

2:06 AM

God's grace is not to be underestimated, but on the other hand, it shouldn't be messed around with either. If you're gonna do junk just cause you're saved, then you're not really saved.

@HedgeMage we're both science fanatics correct?

So with that in mind, no amount of creativity will change reality...

In other words, no matter how you twist, turn, or place_upside_down the Bible... it will remain what it is.

HedgeMage

@RolandTaylor Right. My point is simply, that it's hard to use something so open to interpretation as the Bible as a definitive "God says so", especially when it comes to things that a thorough application of logic can show to be morally questionable if not completely immoral.

Roland Taylor

I have one issue though...

HedgeMage

@RolandTaylor Not to mention that while my Latin is pretty good, my Greek sucks, and I never learned any other languages I'd need to trace back to the original writings (assuming what $random-person says is the original text is -- I wasn't around 2k years ago).

@RolandTaylor what's that?

Roland Taylor

Why are you so focused on what people have done in the name of God, that was obviously not godly? Why not focus on what they say is the word of God? If they are supposed to be following it, then you should investigate the word of God itself. Maybe if their behaviour is flawed, then the standard they have is flawed... or... they are flawed for not sticking to that standard.

wax eagle

@RolandTaylor Actions are much much much stronger than words

Roland Taylor

2:15 AM

@waxeagle I know what you mean. However, I also realize that actions are often the result of blatantly ignoring words.

HedgeMage

@RolandTaylor That is a very fair (even astute) point... but how does one know the Bible is any more God's word than the Vedas, or the Torah, or the Qoran? They all claim to be God's word -- by what do you suggest we judge them if not hard evidence (there is none) or the behaviors of those who follow them?

Roland Taylor

For example if you tell your child not to go outside because there is a bear lurking, and they get eaten by the bear, then obviously somewhere along the lines they ignored your words.

@HedgeMage the Torah... interesting you should bring that up.

HedgeMage

(Actually, the Qoran is said to be the teachings of Mohammad, who was inspired by god, and the Vedas a little different too, but they are all meant to be the religious truth)

@RolandTaylor Yes, I'm aware of its relationship to the Bible.

Roland Taylor

The Quran is full of contradictions and utter non-sense (note, not nonsense, non-sense).

HedgeMage

So is the Bible

wax eagle

2:17 AM

@HedgeMage Right and more recently you have the Book of Mormon and the NWT of the Bible. Whats to say that one book is any more Holy than another.

Roland Taylor

@HedgeMage yeah?

HedgeMage

@waxeagle precisely

Roland Taylor

@waxeagle you really make me wonder... but anyway ;)...

HedgeMage

@RolandTaylor I'm yet to meet a holy book that is completely internally consistent.

If I did I would be impressed.

Roland Taylor

Have you "met" the Bible?

wax eagle

2:20 AM

@RolandTaylor Lol. I assure you I am a committed Christian. I also think the faith in Jesus Christ is the only means to Salvation. However, I'm not above admitting that I take things on faith sometimes that I cannot explain.

Roland Taylor

@waxeagle fair enough :D

It's just sometimes you come across as being from "the dark side"

:D

HedgeMage

@RolandTaylor I've read both the King James and an older Latin version cover to cover. I've not done extensive research, though.

wax eagle

@RolandTaylor I value reason highly and I love theology. So if I'm disagreeing with you its more likely on your theology than on your faith :)

HedgeMage

By the way -- just going from an old Latin version to the King James produced a ridiculous amount of mistranslation, or slightly altered meanings, and so on. I hate to imagine how much modern versions diverge from what was originally written.

wax eagle

@HedgeMage yes. Please throw that out. The newer translations (NIV, or even better ESV) are much more accurate

Roland Taylor

2:24 AM

yeah

HedgeMage

I'm not familiar with ESV, I've seen the NIV but not read it through.

Roland Taylor

the KJV can be rather misleading, sadly

wax eagle

@HedgeMage NIV did a pretty good job. From what I have read from the ESV (not cover to cover yet) it does an even better job and correct some issues the NIV had. Its also the most readable Bible I've seen yet

Roland Taylor

@HedgeMage not to offend, but you really need to approach God and His word with an open heart, not as if "I don't believe this anyway". That's prideful and it will not get you to God, cause He literally resists the proud.

HedgeMage

@waxeagle Interesting. I may check it out some time when I have way more free time.

Roland Taylor

2:26 AM

I personally like the WEB

:P

but my father bought me an NIV, so I use that when I'm not on the computer

HedgeMage

heh

Roland Taylor

(WEB = World English Bible btw - not internet :D)

(I only noticed after typing that)

HedgeMage

@RolandTaylor I certainly have an open mind... open heart is a concept I never understood: I don't think with my heart, I think with my brain.

Roland Taylor

yes but your spirit is what responds to God first

not your brain

you can't reason with God unless you are able to connect spiritually with Him, because... well, He is spirit

(so are you)

HedgeMage

brb phone

returns

Roland Taylor

2:41 AM

goes poof

(not really)

HedgeMage

@RolandTaylor While I understand what you are saying, and I have certainly had experiences that in your lexicon would probably be tagged experiences of the Divine, i still can't claim to know the nature and will of God, which I think one rather has to claim in order to belong to any of the One Right Way paths -- doesn't one?

Roland Taylor

@HedgeMage nooooooooooooooooo lol

:D

Even I, with all of my apparent knowledge.. am still a far way off from knowing His will and mind in full

but... I know enough to share the gospel ;)

and to keep fighting the "war" over souls like yours

HedgeMage

shrugs

Roland Taylor

sorry was I annoying there?

I did come off a bit cliche...

HedgeMage

Here's a question -- assuming that you are 100% right and salvation is available through faith in your particular version of God/Jesus/trinity alone...

Roland Taylor

2:47 AM

k

HedgeMage

What does it say about God that He cares more for the beliefs of people than for the choices they make?

This is, actually, one of the points upon which I left the Catholic church.

Roland Taylor

I think you're kind of confusing "beliefs" and choices.

Salvation is a choice

it's also a gift

and...

HedgeMage

then let me explain what I mean... I may not have described it well...

Roland Taylor

in order to receive, you must believe

wax eagle

@HedgeMage I see all of this from a different point of view. I see humanity as completely depraved. The fact that he chooses to save any of us is a mercy.

Roland Taylor

2:50 AM

@waxeagle lol I think we're on the same page, just putting it different ways, in that regard.

HedgeMage

@waxeagle Yeah, I never got the "depraved at birth" thing -- an infant can't be sinful, it's an infant.

Roland Taylor

However, I would caution on one thing, remember God made man to be in a much better position than we're in now.

So in His eyes, we're worth giving His own life.

HedgeMage

@RolandTaylor But not clear instructions?

(yes that's a serious question)

wax eagle

@HedgeMage lol your kid didn't do anything purposefully sinful when he was an infant? I know mine did. He did things he knew were wrong, even at a fairly young age.

Roland Taylor

@HedgeMage yeah you can. Sins like a virus that is passed from parent to child. Hence all of us inherit it.

wax eagle

2:52 AM

@HedgeMage Follow me is pretty clear

Roland Taylor

@HedgeMage the instructions are clear. Whether you follow them or not is up to you.

Also, whether you call them "madmade and flawed" or not, is up to you.

wax eagle

@RolandTaylor actually a virus is a great comp. a mom can pass HIV to her child if she has it. So she passes sin

HedgeMage

@waxeagle If you think so, then what about if that preacher succeeded in killing him just before birth -- according to every Christian doctrine but a few, he'd have been damned, never having made a choice or taken an action of his own yet.

@waxeagle If sin can be passed in that way, then what is it? I was under the impression that sin was the act of breaking one's relationship with god through some bad action.

sorry, that was meant for @RolandTaylor

wax eagle

@HedgeMage actually its more like a state

HedgeMage

@RolandTaylor The instructions are only clear if you pick one at random and follow it.

@RolandTaylor There are literally thousands of versions out there -- all incompatible

Roland Taylor

2:55 AM

It's not so random really. It's us who chose to make it seem that way by rejecting the original instructions.

And as for the children thing, there is such a thing as the age of accountability, or another words, the point in your life where you have the ability to reasonably choose

wax eagle

@HedgeMage The Westminster Confession basically says: we don't know but we have faith that God saves the children he has chosen to save.

Roland Taylor

A child that dies before having a chance to understand salvation is saved

HedgeMage

@RolandTaylor So, we're back to, I can pick one, which feels a whole lot like Russian Roulette with my soul, or I can accept that I don't know if God exists, or what God's will is, and get on with life -- do what I can understand right, and accept my lack of control over what i don't understand.

wax eagle

I care about this particular fact as much as anyone. My wife and I had a daughter die shortly after childbirth about a year ago.

Roland Taylor

sorry to hear that :S

wax eagle

2:57 AM

@RolandTaylor its ok. Thankfully we knew what was going on about 5 months into the pregnancy

Roland Taylor

@HedgeMage or you can simply accept that there is one right way, it's in the Bible, find out for yourself.

HedgeMage

@RolandTaylor But most Christian sects don't recognize an age of accountability. Among the Catholics and Lutherans, for example, you get baptized or damned, there are no exceptions. During difficult births they often put off life-saving procedures to get a priest present for baptism before the birth is complete.

Roland Taylor

@waxeagle oh

HedgeMage

@RolandTaylor I've read a couple versions of the Bible -- it's not notably different from other Holy books.

Roland Taylor

@HedgeMage you do realize that they are steep in traditions of men correct?

HedgeMage

2:58 AM

Other than being longer.

Roland Taylor

al;skgslgkbslb

sorry

wax eagle

@HedgeMage well its kinda 2 :)

:D

or 66...

yeah

2:58 AM

@RolandTaylor I agree -- but the bible is just as much of men. it didn't fall from the sky -- humans wrote it, translated it (mistranslating some of it), interpreted it, and so on.

Roland Taylor

God inspired it, though he used men to write it.

If you read the Bible itself, you will see what happens when God does the writing...

it's not exactly taking a pen and paper...

mountains quake, skies darken, etc

HedgeMage

And who can know how much changed between God's lips (sorry, Metatron's lips, if god talks to you, you explode) and the modern page?

Roland Taylor

I'd prefer for the still small voice to tell someone human what to write.

@HedgeMage Metatron?

@HedgeMage do you know that the Bible has been extensively mulled over and no one has been able to find significant changes?

for 2000 years...

don't take my word for it btw,

ask the scholars

HedgeMage

@RolandTaylor It's part of Catholic dogma: if you hear God's voice directly, your mortal body and brain can't handle it and you disintigrate. That's the explanation of why he always sends angels to talk to people instead of doing it directly. The one known as most often acting as God's mouthpiece is named Metatron.

Roland Taylor

sorry to say this

but enough with Catholic dogma

HedgeMage

3:02 AM

God talks to Metatron, Metatron talks to mortals, no disintigration necessary.

Roland Taylor

(not trying to offend you there)

HedgeMage

chuckles

But that part's funny

Roland Taylor

XD

HedgeMage

God is so omnipotent he can't keep you from randomly exploding.

Roland Taylor

Metatron is supposed to be Enoch

wax eagle

3:03 AM

@HedgeMage THIS! its kinda ridiculous

Roland Taylor

and having read the book of Enoch, as well as having heard from God myself (sorry, I know that is "up to debate")... I'm pretty sure Metatron doesn't talk to us

Honestly... the Catholic dogma gets on my nerves...

wax eagle

if God talking to us makes us randomly explode then the entire idea of the Spirit is incredibly flawed. but thats neither here nor there.

Anyways its getting late and I've missed alarms every morning this week...

Roland Taylor

If you explode when God talks to you, then you both have one good imagination :)

@waxeagle lol alrighty :D

cya

HedgeMage

@RolandTaylor I'm pretty sure he doesn't, either, but my point is simply that the Bible is a bit like the game Chinese Telephone. Even if you believe it was inspired by God, it's been through a lot of mortal hands since then, all with their own failings, their own agendas, and so on.

goodnight, @waxeagle

Roland Taylor

doesn't exist - he exploded the last several times God spoke to him....

HedgeMage

3:05 AM

rofl

Roland Taylor

@HedgeMage I encourage you to look up the scholarly studies that have been done to prove/disprove the authenticity of the Bible in its current form.

You might be surprised.

HedgeMage

The truth is I just don't have any way to verify that this book is any more God's Word than all the others that claim to be.

I'm not saying you are wrong.

I'm saying there is insufficient proof to know that you are right.

Roland Taylor

There is overwhelming proof, if you look for it you will find it.

Above all though, the real proof for me, of any "religious book" is if doing what it suggests works.

If it doesn't, then it's not worth it.

If it stands up to what it says, then there must at least be something to it.

HedgeMage

@RolandTaylor Now there's a common ground between us:

I believe in what works.

Roland Taylor

I was once into evolution strongly in my younger years.

HedgeMage

3:12 AM

Regardless of the religion espoused (Christianity, Islam, Satanism, various pagan trads, and so on), organized religion doesn't work. Some idiot gets power-hungry and all of a sudden it's not about spirit/god/etc and all about money, politics, and control.

"into" ? It's a theory, not a rock band. :P

Roland Taylor

Then I realized it wasn't really adding up. Not because I was raised in church (my former church actually believed in gap theory and a few other things that left the door open for evolution). I gave up evolution when I evaluated it for myself, and when it wouldn't stand up to the test of working in real life situations.

@HedgeMage lol

at least you called it a theory :D

most people these days call it a "fact"

HedgeMage

That's cultural backlash from the idiots who tried to backdoor forced indoctrination through the whole "intelligent design" thing.

It was bound to happen, and the Christians did it to themselves.

Roland Taylor

"my fruit fly has 8 legs cause I tweaked the dna like a mad scientist - evolution works!"

HedgeMage

I mean, how would Christians like it if we started teaching Satanism in public schools?

I think there would be backlash. I don't know why the ID people didn't think they would get any.

Roland Taylor

@HedgeMage actually, when you study the whole thing, Christians were not the ones who really pushed ID as much as you might think. I was surprised to find that out myself.

Many Christians including me are against the watered down open ended ideas of ID.

HedgeMage

3:16 AM

@RolandTaylor I know that they were in the school system where I had to deal with that nutjobbery -- whether it was true in other places or not i don't know.

Roland Taylor

sadly the ones who push ID over biblical creation are often the same ones who choose to see the bible through the lens of "open interpretation"

which basically means "if we like it we believe it"

"if we don't it's not true"

HedgeMage

I find it interesting that Christians are so big on forced conversion, when every account of Christ's life suggests he was against it, and in favor of a separation between government and spiritual matters.

Roland Taylor

He didn't so much stress on the separation part, but he really was against forced conversion.

HedgeMage

There's a Ghandi quote I love: "I like your Christ. I dislike your Christians, for they are so unlike your Christ."

Roland Taylor

That only came into play when the Roman government out of desperation "adopted" "Christianity"

@HedgeMage lol I like that one :)

HedgeMage

3:19 AM

@RolandTaylor Right, he had no cause to worry about it before that.

Roland Taylor

you know, it's sad, but the romans are the ones who "forced christianity" on everyone else

HedgeMage

Yep.

Roland Taylor

when in reality, they weren't disciples of Jesus to begin with

HedgeMage

It was part of a last attempt at world domination... kind of sad, really.

Roland Taylor

now everyone hates us (which Jesus did predict would happen) for something we didn't do

@HedgeMage my attempt at world domination will succeed though :>

Mars ftw.

HedgeMage

3:21 AM

I don't hate Christians in general. I don't have the energy to hate that many people :P

Roland Taylor

(jk - to lighten the atmosphere)

HedgeMage

I know :)

But, just for the record, my ancestors' forced conversion wasn't at the hands of the Romans -- it happened in the US

Roland Taylor

Ahhh

I know of that story as well

HedgeMage

They made the mistake of moving to the chicago area, where if you weren't Catholic, your children starved.

Roland Taylor

makes me angry to think about it

:(

HedgeMage

3:22 AM

Another great example of "so unlike your Christ"

Roland Taylor

yes

well...

I'll have you to know

I'm black

as in - my ancestors were slaves

I've overcome the hatred (and trust me, in school they tried to teach it) through following Jesus

HedgeMage

That's great that it worked for you. :)

Roland Taylor

but I can't say it was all easy - because when you hit secondary school and start doing history and you read what happened to your ancestors...

and you've got white children in the class with you as the minority...

it's hard to show love

HedgeMage

At least schools are allowed to talk about what happened to your ancestors... not so for mine.

shrugs

Roland Taylor

America sweeps it under the carpet right?

HedgeMage

3:25 AM

history has been unjust to every group at some point or another -- obsessing wouldn't get us anywhere.

Yep.

Roland Taylor

oh btw - my race had it coming :)

remember Nimrod?

he was the world's first dictator... and was black :/

subdued many people groups

and became known as a "god"

so I guess... what goes around really does come around

HedgeMage

Meh, I don't believe in inherited corruption -- simply because if it is accepted as truth there's no reason to do good -- you were already saved or damned long before you were born.

(By the way -- if I disappear don't take offense or assume I was offended, we have a storm building here and it may take out our power and/or internet.)

Roland Taylor

ahh

np

I might be gone soon anyway :P

HedgeMage

np

I should sleep soon, too, but I found this interesting.

Roland Taylor

I am glad we had a discussion without starting world war 4.

(We had 3 earlier if I remember correctly).

HedgeMage

3:30 AM

I've debated with many Catholics, but most of the protestants I've met are of the "comply or die" variety.

Roland Taylor

lol

HedgeMage

lol something like that.

Roland Taylor

I'm not of any denomination btw

our church is independent so to speak

HedgeMage

meh, if you believe simultaneously in Jesus Christ, and in Catholics being wrong about a whole bunch of stuff that matters, you're protestant :P

that's what it meant -- protesting the behavior of the Catholic Church

Roland Taylor

lol

well I simply reject their behaviour - not protest it :D

protestants really are only those who were once catholic

and many of our people never were

HedgeMage

3:34 AM

nods

I was raised Catholic, but I was pretty much done in any meaningful sense when I was about 8 -- I called the priest an anti-intellectualist hypocrite and walked out. He told my grandmother on me, which is pretty much what happens when you are 8.

Roland Taylor

XD

that's a funny story :D

I sure hope you apologized :O

HedgeMage

I told him that I didn't have to apologize to heretics.

(This all stemmed from him telling me that Jesus didn't want to hear from children, which I could show to be untrue from the Bible.)

he really said that?

Yep.

haha?

3:38 AM

I thought so.

Roland Taylor

O.o

wow...

HedgeMage

shrugs.

Roland Taylor

satan really wants to try hard to keep you from ever having a chance to know God obviously...

HedgeMage

I used scripture against the clergy pretty effectively. They were totally thrown by meeting someone who bothered to read and understand it.

Roland Taylor

lol

you know, you're a special person :) (no, that is not scripted)

HedgeMage

3:40 AM

hehe... thanks! (I think)

Roland Taylor

your life is proof - only people with a purpose go through that lvl of crap

HedgeMage

Crap I have plenty of.

Roland Taylor

@HedgeMage lol here's a secret :D

HedgeMage

But, that's life -- what is is.

Roland Taylor

so long as I'm not on AU chat, everything I say can be believed.

if I'm on AU chat - I'm lying :D

HedgeMage

3:41 AM

rofl

Roland Taylor

Honestly though, you really must have been born with a huge purpose, if not you would't have faced so much especially from the people who should have been the ones to help.

That's the way satan works things out to make God look like a villain especially through his own people.

HedgeMage

Meh, I don't think God is a villain. Some of the people carrying his banner, however...

I just think God is ERROR...NOT ENOUGH DATA AVAILABLE

;)

Roland Taylor

lol

<--- is a saint... both literally and figuratively

HedgeMage

:)

Roland Taylor

<--- can do no evil

does evil >:)

HedgeMage

3:44 AM

pats you on the head

Roland Taylor

:)

I guess what I'm trying to say there (apart from joking around) is give God a chance in spite of us ;)

as Jesus said "Do as they say, not as they do"

HedgeMage

I'll always listen... not sure what it'll change, but I'm big on listening and questioning.

Roland Taylor

I feel ya :)

it's good to be rational and reasonable

HedgeMage

yep :)

If nothing else, it makes life one heck of a lot less dull!

i'm going to call it a night

I have an early morning coming, whether this weather agrees or not.

Goodnight!

Roland Taylor

cya

El'endia Starman

4:42 AM

...well...dang. I missed out on quite an interesting conversation!

El'endia Starman

5:12 AM

@HedgeMage One way you can evaluate them is via historical accuracy. For example, Luke mentioned a ton of names in the Gospel of Luke, and all of them have been confirmed by archaeology. In contrast, the Book of Mormon has like 0% accuracy. The Torah is just the first 5 books of the Bible and I don't know about the Qoran or the Vedas.

@waxeagle Have you checked out the NLT? I'd say that's the most readable translation yet although it is less precise than the ESV.

El'endia Starman

5:29 AM

@HedgeMage I myself believe that while Sin is inherited through the father (Jesus was born of a women and yet was sinless), an infant can't sin, so to speak. In other words, until a baby/child reaches that "age of accountability" they can't be found guilty for something they didn't know was wrong (Romans 5:13 is my main verse for this).

@HedgeMage: I once read a quote that went along the lines of "Man could not have written the Bible even if he would and he would not have written the Bible even if he could."
The first part comes from the fact that even with all the apparent inconsistencies, the Bible is still *very* internally consistent.
The second part comes from stuff like David and Bathsheba. David's (first) actions there aren't something you'd want to record for posterity if you want to cast David in a positive light...

@RolandTaylor "Theory" means something in colloquial English that is rather different from science. Like, there's the Theory of Special Relativity, which is practically undisputed even though it cannot be proved correct.

C. Ross

11:02 AM

Good morning all

@ElendiaStarman interesting interpretation ...

Caleb

11:13 AM

@CRoss Gün aydın. Although I'm not sure who "all" is, things have been pretty quiet around here after last nights flurry.

C. Ross

@Caleb all is whoever happens to be in the room

Sotiris

11:40 AM

Hello all

wax eagle

@ElendiaStarman I feel like that is a very slippery slope. What happens if we clone a human and it is born of a virgin? Personally I believe that Christ was sinless because he was conceived of the Holy Spirit and for no other reason :)

wax eagle

11:54 AM

Also good morning folks :)

Caleb

@waxeagle Back at you.

@ElendiaStarman How would you define "total depravity" and what do you believe about it?

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