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Iszi
Iszi
5:00 PM
@CRoss & @waxeagle - Could you pop over to RPG for a sec? Posted a question in chat.
 
C. Ross
C. Ross
@HedgeMage this is certainly a big part of it. There is also a tendency among many Christians to live in their little communities and try to ignore the rest of the world.
 
El'endia Starman
El'endia Starman
@Cross, @waxeagle, I meant the disproportionate portrayal of such Christians as opposed to the typical Christian. Much like a lot of people view Muslims as belonging to that rather small group of radical Muslims that blew up the World Trade Center...
 
wax eagle
wax eagle
@ElendiaStarman I really feel like blaming the media is an excuse for far too many people
 
Corey Ogburn
Corey Ogburn
hey all
 
C. Ross
C. Ross
@CoreyOgburn hey
 
HedgeMage
HedgeMage
5:03 PM
@ElendiaStarman The media isn't it in my personal experience.
It's the people who go door-to-door proselytizing, the people who preach at children outside grocery stores over the objections of parents, the cops who refused to show up at my house when that man tried to break in, the neighbor who did everything she could to get me out of her neighborhood, the teachers who didn't intervene when my Jewish friend's child was attacked by his classmates "until it seemed serious" at which point the kid needed an ICU...
 
wax eagle
wax eagle
@CoreyOgburn hello
 
HedgeMage
HedgeMage
The people in power aren't doing it... it's a whole bunch of little individual choices.
 
Corey Ogburn
Corey Ogburn
I have a statement that I've been debating for awhile that I'd like to talk about, I'm not sure if it warrants a question because of the amount of debate it would likely require to come to a solution.
 
El'endia Starman
El'endia Starman
@HedgeMage: Good point.
 
C. Ross
C. Ross
@CoreyOgburn you can certainly throw it out here
 
HedgeMage
HedgeMage
5:03 PM
The choice to do something evil, or to fail to intervene when someone else does.
@ElendiaStarman I used to have to go to the grocery store at 2am because it was the only time people wouldn't follow me shouting hellfire and brimstone at my then-1yo child.
 
Corey Ogburn
Corey Ogburn
The statement I've been mulling over is "A healthy relationship with God requires doubt."
 
HedgeMage
HedgeMage
@ElendiaStarman How do you not kick someone like that out of your store?
that kind of stuff.
 
wax eagle
wax eagle
@CoreyOgburn I'd hesistate to use the word "requires" but I don't think it precludes it
 
HedgeMage
HedgeMage
@CoreyOgburn I agree 100%. If you don't question, you don't believe (an old saying from my path)
 
C. Ross
C. Ross
@CoreyOgburn I wouldn't say requires, but there is certainly a lot of text that lends itself to that
Dark Night of the Soul and what not
 
Corey Ogburn
Corey Ogburn
5:06 PM
I go to a Christian university and often times I see people believing things because they're told to, I don't feel right about that...
 
C. Ross
C. Ross
@CoreyOgburn see, now that's a question about the role of orthodoxy, and that question is hard
 
Corey Ogburn
Corey Ogburn
Seeking advice from somebody with experience or merit is a legit thing to do, but blindly believing it without research or explanation seems insincere.
 
HedgeMage
HedgeMage
It's like when a man knows his wife is cheating on him, but really doesn't want to know. He will ignore an inconsistency in her account of her day, not notice when she avoids certain topics or acts distant; he won't look at the boxers in the bin that aren't his, he'll assume he forgot he had that pair...
People who don't question faith come off like that to me -- the only reason not to question is that you have serious doubts you don't want confronted.
 
El'endia Starman
El'endia Starman
@HedgeMage Honestly, I'm not much of a social person at all (and still rather young too) but I have yet to see such behavior. However, I could see that happening as there are bad people of every stripe. And I don't have a good answer other than that it's easier for us to notice and remember the bad stuff as opposed to the good stuff.
 
Corey Ogburn
Corey Ogburn
I think those doubts can be the difference between knowing God and experiencing God.
But my personal experiences differ from other peoples'
 
HedgeMage
HedgeMage
5:09 PM
@ElendiaStarman Such behavior isn't in the majority, it's just that... if you aren't Christian and don't have Christians in your family, etc., they are the only ones you see. Non-nutjobs are much more low-key.
 
El'endia Starman
El'endia Starman
@CoreyOgburn I know what you mean. It's like being told that there are an infinite number of primes. I'd believe it coming from someone I know/trust, but I'd still want to see a proof.
 
Corey Ogburn
Corey Ogburn
@HedgeMage "Non-nutjobs are much more low-key." Such a shame that's true
 
El'endia Starman
El'endia Starman
@HedgeMage Sadly quite true...
 
Corey Ogburn
Corey Ogburn
@ElendiaStarman Lucky for that question, there are proofs
 
HedgeMage
HedgeMage
@ElendiaStarman It's like back when race was a much bigger thing than it is now, there were places where you'd never meet a black person if you were white, so the only thing you would know was when one made the paper (usually because of a crime)... what might you assume?
 
Corey Ogburn
Corey Ogburn
5:10 PM
@ElendiaStarman XKCD even has it in haiku form ha ha
 
El'endia Starman
El'endia Starman
Indeed...one of the nice things about math...and XKCD is awesome. :D

I was referring to how I could believe something and still want to see a proof. So, it's kinda similar to doubt, but not really.
@HedgeMage Hah, yeah.
 
Corey Ogburn
Corey Ogburn
What would you say to somebody who's a Christian but never shows doubt, or claims they never doubt? Whether it's true or not, I know a few that make the claim...
 
wax eagle
wax eagle
@CoreyOgburn lol ignore them because they are lying?
 
Corey Ogburn
Corey Ogburn
I mean, it's not my place to challenge or question their doubt... is it?
 
HedgeMage
HedgeMage
@CoreyOgburn "hogwash" comes to mind. But again, I'm not Christian so maybe there's something I'm missing.
 
Corey Ogburn
Corey Ogburn
5:13 PM
Yeah, I don't fall for it either
 
wax eagle
wax eagle
@CoreyOgburn its not, but at the same time, I would be curious about why they don't doubt. Better to just ignore it than think too hard.
The better question is what to do when someone challenges you because you doubt.
 
Corey Ogburn
Corey Ogburn
I understand that my doubts could eventually lead me to an answer. Maybe not an answer I want, but that's not how truth works (in religion or any other subject)
 
HedgeMage
HedgeMage
Right.
I tend to think that if one never had a doubt, one never considered the subject thoroughly.
 
Corey Ogburn
Corey Ogburn
Exactly
 
Roland Taylor
Roland Taylor
boo
 
Corey Ogburn
Corey Ogburn
5:18 PM
@RolandTaylor ?
 
Roland Taylor
Roland Taylor
?
 
Corey Ogburn
Corey Ogburn
!
 
Roland Taylor
Roland Taylor
:D
 
wax eagle
wax eagle
~
 
El'endia Starman
El'endia Starman
... o.O
 
Roland Taylor
Roland Taylor
5:19 PM
@Hedge I read some of what you said earlier btw. I agree we need to show the side of Grace more :).
Do you know of Joseph Prince?
=
@jrista hi! (nice avatar)
 
El'endia Starman
El'endia Starman
[chuckles] There is more people in this chat room than I have ever seen on math.SE... :P
 
jrista
jrista
@RolandTaylor hi
 
Roland Taylor
Roland Taylor
Math.SE has a chat room?
 
Corey Ogburn
Corey Ogburn
I believe ever SE site does
 
HedgeMage
HedgeMage
@RolandTaylor I do not.
 
Corey Ogburn
Corey Ogburn
5:21 PM
every*
 
Roland Taylor
Roland Taylor
@HedgeMage kk
 
HedgeMage
HedgeMage
@ElendiaStarman Clearly it's my sparkling personality... either that or they are after the brownies I'm baking.
 
El'endia Starman
El'endia Starman
It does...it wasn't used much until recently, when Asaf and other people started having a bunch of conversations.
 
Roland Taylor
Roland Taylor
you might like him :)
 
El'endia Starman
El'endia Starman
@HedgeMage LOL.
 
Roland Taylor
Roland Taylor
5:21 PM
@CoreyOgburn that was a joke
 
El'endia Starman
El'endia Starman
Well, I have a doctor's appointment...gotta go!
 
wax eagle
wax eagle
@HedgeMage mmm brownies. What kind? Hopefully raspberry chipotle :)
 
Roland Taylor
Roland Taylor
I want cheese cake
 
HedgeMage
HedgeMage
@waxeagle Double-fudge chocolate chip brownies.
 
Corey Ogburn
Corey Ogburn
@RolandTaylor ah, went over my head, I'm new to chat on any SE site.
anyway, it's lunch time so I'm off
 
Roland Taylor
Roland Taylor
5:22 PM
@HedgeMage all mine?
 
wax eagle
wax eagle
@HedgeMage still good...
 
Roland Taylor
Roland Taylor
@CoreyOgburn cya
 
HedgeMage
HedgeMage
@RolandTaylor Come on over, I'll share.
 
Roland Taylor
Roland Taylor
@HedgeMage eh... I don't want to share >:)
just kidding
you can have one :D
 
wax eagle
wax eagle
Trying to decide of asking the final TULIP question is a dupe...hmmm
6
Q: Once saved always saved. Is eternal security Biblical?

Jonathon ByrdI have always thought that we are onced saved always saved, but I recently was reading Ezekiel and came across this topic three different times. Ezekiel 33 12Therefore, thou son of man, say unto the children of thy people, The righteousness of the righteous shall not deliver him in the day...

salvation
 
Roland Taylor
Roland Taylor
5:28 PM
e.e oh no
 
wax eagle
wax eagle
I think it is, its just not how I would phrase it at all...
 
HedgeMage
HedgeMage
@waxeagle tulip? as in the flower?
is confused
 
Roland Taylor
Roland Taylor
LOL
 
wax eagle
wax eagle
@HedgeMage lol TULIP is an acronym for the 5 points of Calvinism
 
Roland Taylor
Roland Taylor
as confused as I was when I first heard it
 
wax eagle
wax eagle
5:29 PM
Total Depravity
Unconditional Election
Limited Atonement
Irresistible Grace
Perseverance of the Saints
I've asked for scriptural basis for the first 4, but the question I linked above sort of asks about the final one, just from a very different place
 
HedgeMage
HedgeMage
I know what 1 and 2 mean, what are 3, 4, and 5?
 
Roland Taylor
Roland Taylor
I don't really get it myself
 
wax eagle
wax eagle
@HedgeMage Basically 3 is that Christ's death was sufficient (enough) for all but efficient for some (the elect). Meaning that Its only imputed (given to) to those who are elected.
 
C. Ross
C. Ross
ie: He didn't fail to save some people
 
Roland Taylor
Roland Taylor
Oh yeah, salvation by election for only some people...
nonsense
 
wax eagle
wax eagle
5:33 PM
4 is that you don't have anything to do with your salvation, you are drawn to God with an irresistible pull (Lewis used the term dragged kicking and screaming)
 
HedgeMage
HedgeMage
@waxeagle in other words, if you are special you have a Get Into Heaven Free card, otherwise you have to work for it?
 
wax eagle
wax eagle
@HedgeMage nope. You can't work for it.
 
C. Ross
C. Ross
@HedgeMage no, God either chooses you or He doesn't.
 
Roland Taylor
Roland Taylor
that's so...
wrong
 
wax eagle
wax eagle
5 is once you have been saved, you can't become unsaved...
 
Roland Taylor
Roland Taylor
5:34 PM
D:
:(
 
HedgeMage
HedgeMage
the special comment was wrt 3 not 4
 
C. Ross
C. Ross
Calvinists (at least those with a brain) don't believe that you just get chosen and you don't have to make a choice and keep living the way you do
 
wax eagle
wax eagle
@CRoss right. We still read James
 
Roland Taylor
Roland Taylor
@CRoss lol
 
HedgeMage
HedgeMage
I heard a lot of 5 in Texas -- I'm saved so it doesn't matter what I do now.
 
Roland Taylor
Roland Taylor
5:35 PM
"those with a brain"
@HedgeMage "faith without works is dead"
 
C. Ross
C. Ross
@HedgeMage and Paul talks about those who are no longer with us were never with us
 
HedgeMage
HedgeMage
This one woman was shocked because her husband finally left her after her 5th or so bout of infidelity, because she was "saved" so God had supposedly forgiven her and he had to, too (strange logic)
 
Roland Taylor
Roland Taylor
I'm very sorry for what man has done with their faith btw
 
C. Ross
C. Ross
@HedgeMage wow
 
Roland Taylor
Roland Taylor
wow
@Hedge btw look up Joseph Prince if you're interested :). You will see a different side of Christianity, but one you might like (not trying to convert you or anything, but if that happens... oh well... not my "fault").
I'm out again! writing time
 
wax eagle
wax eagle
5:40 PM
Anyways @HedgeMage that's TULIP for you.
 
HedgeMage
HedgeMage
@RolandTaylor, @waxeagle thanks for the explanation
Okay, looking at this guy's website... I don't know a nice way to put it so excuse the bluntness, but right off I see something about "prayer requests"... that just creeps me the heck out.
If getting a bunch of people to pray for what you want to happen works, then basically you are saying God doesn't have a plan, he's just waiting for enough upvotes before He does something.
 
Roland Taylor
Roland Taylor
lol... I have returned. shortly.
@HedgeMage lol, it seems that way doesn't it?
God is a person, we have a relationship with Him. He literally enjoys hearing from us and doing things for us (there is more to it than that ofc, but that's a big part of it).
 
HedgeMage
HedgeMage
So, either God only cares about doing what is popular (in which case I'd rather not know Him kthx), or it's just something the establishment does so they can get money to organize it (in which case the church is corrupt, time to move on).
@RolandTaylor But then having people repeat your prayer off a list shouldn't help anything.
 
wax eagle
wax eagle
@HedgeMage Might also behoove me to mention that the TULIP points were a direct contradiction to the teachings of Joseph Arminius.
 
HedgeMage
HedgeMage
@RolandTaylor Only heartfelt prayers that are on one's own initiative should count.
 
Roland Taylor
Roland Taylor
5:48 PM
@HedgeMage I am saddened by your way of looking at things: "So, either God only cares about doing what is popular (in which case I'd rather not know Him kthx), or it's just something the establishment does so they can get money to organize it (in which case the church is corrupt, time to move on)."
I mean, seriously...
Is that a good way to approach something you don't understand?
 
HedgeMage
HedgeMage
@RolandTaylor I said that was overly blunt because I was failing at phrasing... please don't take the tone to heart.
 
wax eagle
wax eagle
@HedgeMage Honestly we pray because we are told to pray. God chooses to answer prayers, not based on popularity, but based on his will. that's actually a really good question.
 
HedgeMage
HedgeMage
@RolandTaylor My point was that I can't grok the logic behind prayer lists... why pay money to get other people to pray for you? What possible merit is there in that prayer?
 
Roland Taylor
Roland Taylor
@HedgeMage lol fair enough. I can come across the wrong way (more than you) as well.
@HedgeMage pay money to get people to pray for you?
That's not how prayer requests work...
 
wax eagle
wax eagle
@HedgeMage no way anyone should be paying money to get prayed for. This was one of the reasons Luther split from teh Catholics, people were having to pay money to get their sins forgiven
 
HedgeMage
HedgeMage
5:50 PM
How do you think they get the glossy web sites, or print and hand out prayer directories?
There's money involved.
@waxeagle I may be somewhat Catholic-biased ... that's what my extended family is, and I went to a Catholic prep school. However, my impression was that it's still common practice.
 
wax eagle
wax eagle
@HedgeMage yeah it is and its wrong :)
 
Roland Taylor
Roland Taylor
@HedgeMage lol yes there is money involved, but they don't ask for your money to pray for you :D
 
HedgeMage
HedgeMage
I remember when the hospital screwed up and didn't give my grandmother Last Rites... according to Catholic teaching, she was stuck in purgatory because of that. So my (then very poor) parents scraped up a few hundred dollars to get her on the prayer list so she wouldn't stay there forever. It's pretty transparently a monetary transaction.
It was a very hard year for my family, both caring for my grandfather and paying for my grandmother to be on the prayer list.
 
Roland Taylor
Roland Taylor
No offence to anyone, but that's just bogus.
 
wax eagle
wax eagle
@HedgeMage This is a seriously sad misinterpretation of scripture. Pretty sure no one gave the thief on the cross last rights :)
 
Roland Taylor
Roland Taylor
5:53 PM
Exactly.
 
wax eagle
wax eagle
Also biblical basis for purgatory is razor thin if there at all
 
Roland Taylor
Roland Taylor
I really don't mean any offence, but the Roman Catholic church is very far off from being Biblical in many areas.
 
HedgeMage
HedgeMage
@waxeagle Agreed. My point was not "I saw this so all Christianity is corrupt" but "whenever I see this particular practice my first reaction is to be creeped out"
 
Roland Taylor
Roland Taylor
Fair enough.
 
wax eagle
wax eagle
@HedgeMage I understand that.
 
Roland Taylor
Roland Taylor
5:54 PM
However, I encourage you to approach things with a clean slate in mind.
 
HedgeMage
HedgeMage
I was honestly wondering whether there was a legitimate theory behind prayer lists, other than as a tool to raise revenue.
 
Roland Taylor
Roland Taylor
I am sorry you're views were tainted that way :(
 
wax eagle
wax eagle
@HedgeMage Yes I think there is. My theology of prayer isn't well developed yet, but yes more people praying can only help. Prayer is something of a mystery to me. However if you are charging money to put people on a prayer list you're doing it wrong
 
HedgeMage
HedgeMage
Sorry if I came off a bit... judgmental on that one. It was not my intention.
 
Roland Taylor
Roland Taylor
@HedgeMage no hard feelings there ;)
You're doing waaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaay better than most people I've had to deal with on these subjects :)
 
HedgeMage
HedgeMage
5:57 PM
@waxeagle If the point is not to be a revenue source, then why are there lists kept by religious institutions instead of people just tweeting about it or something? I mean, it's on a web site, so obviously they are aware of the internet.
 
wax eagle
wax eagle
@HedgeMage 'tis ok. We have 2k years of history to be judged on, and its really not flattering
@HedgeMage Christians seem to be bound to arcane technology. I have no idea
 
Roland Taylor
Roland Taylor
@Hedge a lot of people do ask for money to pray for people, but it is absolutely wrong
However, there are a large amount of people doing it "right" as well. They just don't get a lot of air play. I think the reasons for that are obvious...
 
HedgeMage
HedgeMage
nods
 
Roland Taylor
Roland Taylor
As for explaining how prayer works, there is so much involved...
it could take hours to even scratch the surface.
Especially seeing as each of us might have differing views in some slight ways, and you yourself are not a Christian at all...
 
wax eagle
wax eagle
0
Q: What is the purpose of Prayer?

wax eagleWe are having a lovely discussion in chat about the purpose and efficacy of prayer. I am of the opinion that God has a plan and the future is completely set. However I also believe that you should pray for what you need and that God will answer your prayer. What scripture forms the basis for o...

prayer predestination
here is your opportunity :)
 
Roland Taylor
Roland Taylor
6:01 PM
One thing I can tell you is that the more people pray, the more effective prayer is. One reason for that is given in the book of Daniel.

In that case, Daniel prayed to God for 21 days. The answer never came till after that 21 days. Reason? The answer (in the form of an angel) had been blocked in the second heaven... by evil spirits (okay yes, that is over heads, I'm sorry).
@waxeagle wow that will take me a long time to answer :S
Remember how God told Moses he would wipe Israel of the map for being a whiney bunch of murmurers? (in different words)
Moses stood in the way and said if you are going to destroy them, you have to go through me.
Evidence of a relationship basis for prayer.
pulling references in a second
 
wax eagle
wax eagle
@RolandTaylor Right, I remember the passage quite clearly.
 
Roland Taylor
Roland Taylor
Xiphos isn't letting me find it back as quickly as I wanted :P
 
wax eagle
wax eagle
However, I'm hard pressed to imagine that his plan changed just because of Moses, I'm pretty sure it was just a personal test for him. Rather than an actual changing of his mind.
 
Roland Taylor
Roland Taylor
Actually I would disagree there. It is clear that He planned to destroy them, but when Moses reminded Him of His promises and would not relent, he changed His mind. Not that I'm saying He couldn't remember His own promises, but just that He works with us in terms of relationship. It's a tough issue to explain regardless :S
Numbers 14
 
wax eagle
wax eagle
@RolandTaylor No doubt about it.
 
Roland Taylor
Roland Taylor
6:11 PM
1 sec, gonna pastebin it
BTW with this example, we are seeing the Grace of God as well, as He had not yet given the covenant of Jesus yes that brought Grace to us.
(sigh I didn't mean to stay here so long :P)
 
HedgeMage
HedgeMage
Ugh, I just came across one of those posts that is challenging my tolerance.
 
wax eagle
wax eagle
@RolandTaylor Right. the question of how OT believers were saved hasn't been asked yet :) that's another good one.
@HedgeMage point and shoot...we might kill something :)
 
Roland Taylor
Roland Taylor
@HedgeMage what is that? BTW remember, you have to be fair, this isn't exactly your field ;).
You'll have to go beyond your tolerance, or else you're as bad as people who kill others that don't believe what they do :D
(just reminding ya like a good "troll")
 
HedgeMage
HedgeMage
@RolandTaylor Not really... the solution I was contemplating was walking away from the site to take a hot shower, not killing unborn babies. Big difference.
 
Roland Taylor
Roland Taylor
lol
 
wax eagle
wax eagle
6:17 PM
@HedgeMage lol.
 
HedgeMage
HedgeMage
This question (and the top answer) are good, but the second comment to the first answer, and the second answer, have me irked:
2
Q: Under what conditions does the Bible support divorce?

RichardIt seems that Jesus talks out against divorce. But in other places, divorce is allowed. How does this all play out and where does the bible really stand on this? Is it a sin or is it just part of the culture?

sin divorce
 
wax eagle
wax eagle
@HedgeMage just delete the comment convo. its not constructive. I sent you a flag :)
 
HedgeMage
HedgeMage
hehe
so it's not just me then?
 
Roland Taylor
Roland Taylor
wait let me see it too :D
 
wax eagle
wax eagle
@HedgeMage No. Its annoying. the second answer unfortunately is the opinion of plenty of folks so I can't in good conceince say delete that one
 
John
John
6:20 PM
Once he clarified, I didn't see much wrong with it. (granted, I only skimmed) It seems to me that he's saying that you shouldn't just marry the first person you feel like.
 
Roland Taylor
Roland Taylor
eh... what's the point of his comment(s)?
 
wax eagle
wax eagle
@RolandTaylor exactly, not constructive, can safely be deleted
 
Roland Taylor
Roland Taylor
@John Doesn't that go without saying though? Unless you have something to hide :>?
 
John
John
@RolandTaylor Yes, it should go without saying, but I'm sure there are people...
 
Roland Taylor
Roland Taylor
lol
 
HedgeMage
HedgeMage
6:21 PM
@John I interpreted it differently. I took it as "if a divorce is necessary, then you didn't do your due diligence, and you married someone you shouldn't have"
@John It seems to presuppose that people don't change over time.
 
Roland Taylor
Roland Taylor
well said :)
 
John
John
@HedgeMage In that light, yes I can see why it should be deleted. However, I don't think he meant harm.
 
Roland Taylor
Roland Taylor
I don't think so either...
And I generally don't encourage removing comments like that
 
HedgeMage
HedgeMage
@John Based on the flag, I deleted the whole batch of comments on that answer as "just chatter".
 
Roland Taylor
Roland Taylor
but I think this might be a bit... confusing, for people who see it
 
wax eagle
wax eagle
6:22 PM
@RolandTaylor Comments are meant to be deleted :)
 
Roland Taylor
Roland Taylor
@waxeagle lol. Then you have not been on AskUbuntu?
Comments become answers :>
 
HedgeMage
HedgeMage
@RolandTaylor I advocate removing comments whenever one has a half-decent excuse to. They are meant to be transient asides, not content. The community team has a blog post in the works about that actually.
 
wax eagle
wax eagle
@RolandTaylor not at all....
 
John
John
@HedgeMage Well done. Btw, do you know when we get our Pro Tems?
 
HedgeMage
HedgeMage
@John Shortly after you go into public beta.
 
Roland Taylor
Roland Taylor
6:24 PM
@HedgeMage on a very off-topic note,
Are most SE staff atheist or similar?
 
HedgeMage
HedgeMage
The gist of it is: anything important should be in a question or answer... if you put important stuff in a comment you are doing it wrong
 
Roland Taylor
Roland Taylor
(I'm just curious)
afk
 
HedgeMage
HedgeMage
@RolandTaylor I haven't done a survey or anything... my impression is that we have a few Jewish people, one neopagan I know of, one agnostic I know of, me (FT pagan), and a whole bunch of people I don't know about.
But considering how many employees we have these days, that's not even half the company that I can guess about
but again, it's not like we talk about religion all day.
And... it's not the sort of thing I'd ask someone about. For all I know somebody still lives in a place where you can get killed over being the "wrong" religion -- I don't want to risk outing anybody.
Actually, I can think of one Christian person (well, person I think is Christian)
@waxeagle I guess the reason that second answer got under my skin is: I've seen children killed because the mother believed she'd be damned if she left the abusive father. That should never happen.
 
wax eagle
wax eagle
@HedgeMage nope, and its not justifiable. the passage posted in the first answer gives pretty good cause to leave in that situation.
 
HedgeMage
HedgeMage
@waxeagle Also, the idea that spouse A is a sinner because spouse B up and left, is strange to me. One cannot control the actions of another, so how can one be held responsible?
 
Roland Taylor
Roland Taylor
6:32 PM
@HedgeMage interesting.
 
HedgeMage
HedgeMage
@waxeagle (For the record, I may not be totally objective on this subject -- I am divorced, and I spent about a decade working with abused children and their families.)
 
Roland Taylor
Roland Taylor
What is a FT pagan?
 
HedgeMage
HedgeMage
@RolandTaylor "FT" stands for "Family Tradition"... it means one of those nameless religions that is passed down in a family or clan, but usually doesn't have a formal church organization.
 
Roland Taylor
Roland Taylor
And btw the Bible makes it clear that in cases where someone is not "pleased to dwell with you" to let them go.
@HedgeMage oh kk
 
HedgeMage
HedgeMage
@RolandTaylor Most of my extended family is Christian because my father's side is, and my mother's side was forcibly converted around a century ago. I learned the Old Ways from the one family member I know of who did not convert.
 
wax eagle
wax eagle
6:34 PM
@HedgeMage Hey, I understand. I grew up in a congregation that dealt with several divorces and remarriages, we didn't kick folks out because their wife left and they got remarried.
or their husband either. no intent at gender discrimination there..
 
John
John
@HedgeMage That the reason for the wizard hat and calling yourself a mage?
 
Roland Taylor
Roland Taylor
@HedgeMage so that means you're into witchcraft?
(I won't hate on you btw).
 
John
John
@HedgeMage Btw, nice saying on your gravatar.
 
HedgeMage
HedgeMage
@John Nope, totally irrelevant. The "hedgemage" thing is a reference to my being a self-taught hacker. In old legends a hedge mage was one who learned by digging in and trying stuff, as opposed to the formal education of "proper" wizards.
 
John
John
@HedgeMage Ah ok.
 
HedgeMage
HedgeMage
6:37 PM
@RolandTaylor No, very few pagan sects actually do the whole witch/witchcraft meme.
 
Roland Taylor
Roland Taylor
actually hedge
not sure what you experience or know of
but for us in my part of the world
witches and warlocks are not something rare or unheard of
it's common
like... normal almost
and... before you ask, the spiritual part of it, is real.
 
HedgeMage
HedgeMage
@RolandTaylor The reason it's heard in the US so much is that it's popular among neopagans (members of a new wave of pagan belief started in the mid-20th century by Gardener and Alexander). While there are other types of pagans that use those terms, they are concentrated in the UK and Eastern Europe.
@RolandTaylor where are you from?
 
Roland Taylor
Roland Taylor
@HedgeMage and, in Africa, Cuba, and the Caribbean (where I'm from)
we mostly know them by the African-based terminology, Obeah
but most of us who are believers (Christians) just use the term witch or warlock
 
HedgeMage
HedgeMage
@RolandTaylor Ahh, yes, I forgot about that... some people there have adopted the language of "witch, witchcraft" because it is more common to the western world than the African terms... never mind you beat me there :)
 
Roland Taylor
Roland Taylor
:P
So... out of curiosity
you do actually practice the spiritual part of paganism?
or do you just use the term cause you're not a Christian?
 
HedgeMage
HedgeMage
6:41 PM
Are you familiar with the etymology of "pagan" ?
 
Roland Taylor
Roland Taylor
yes
I know it by many definitions :)
one of them... involves tree hugging and prancing around naked in forests :D
 
HedgeMage
HedgeMage
Good, then you know that "pagan" technically refers to anything that is not related to the Abrahamic storyline... that is, anything other than being Christian, Jewish, Muslim, or Satanist.
It's a big bunch of totally unrelated religions.
 
Roland Taylor
Roland Taylor
yes
 
HedgeMage
HedgeMage
Anyhow, I am actively practicing in my tradition, and while we don't have any rules against naked prancing, it's not a tenet of the tradition or anything.
 
Roland Taylor
Roland Taylor
In reality, a pagan originally referred to anyone who wasn't a Jew or Christian. As usual however, it has degenerated to what we have today.
@HedgeMage lol...
 
John
John
6:45 PM
This question:
http://christianity.stackexchange.com/questions/384/what-evidence-exists-for-modern-day-miracles
I have a verse that states that miracles won't happen anymore, but no concrete evidence *of miracles happening* like the question asks for. Can I still put my verse as an answer?
 
HedgeMage
HedgeMage
Right. It stems from the Latin word "pagani" which essentially means "rednecks" or "hillbillies" and was associated with religion when city-dwellers used it to denegrate rural-dwellers who did not convert to Christianity when the emporer of Rome did.
@John I'd put it as a comment.
It's interesting, but doesn't directly answer what was asked.
 
Roland Taylor
Roland Taylor
So then, your aversion to Jesus (I will not use Christianity because of the broad meanings involved) is based on history more than a personal conviction?
 
John
John
@HedgeMage Ok then I will.
 
Roland Taylor
Roland Taylor
@John what verse is this?
 
John
John
Luke 11:29
When the crowds were increasing, he began to say, “This generation is an evil generation. It seeks for a sign, but **no sign will be given to it except the sign of Jonah.**
(emphasis mine)
 
Roland Taylor
Roland Taylor
6:47 PM
that says nothing of miracles.
 
HedgeMage
HedgeMage
@RolandTaylor I have no aversion to Jesus whatsoever. My tradition doesn't have any proscription as to God/gods or worship. If it weren't for conflicts in expected social behaviors, one could follow my tradition and be Christian at the same time.
 
John
John
@RolandTaylor Is a sign not a miracle?
 
Roland Taylor
Roland Taylor
And, if you understand what Jesus was saying, he was referring to himself.
@John sigh...
I won't argue with you, but you are clearly mislead.
 
John
John
@RolandTaylor Is the sign of Jonah (the resurrection) not a miracle?
@RolandTaylor I don't like people telling me and wrong but not telling me why. Care to explain?
 
HedgeMage
HedgeMage
@RolandTaylor If you want me to expand on that, I don't mind, but I'm going to grab a shower first and see if it un-stuffs my stuffy head.
 
Roland Taylor
Roland Taylor
6:48 PM
John, I would, but we would only argue, and I don't have the time. I'm not saying I can't tell you why, just I won't at this point in time. Is that okay?
 
John
John
@RolandTaylor I suppose. I'm genuinely interest in the difference between signs and miracles though...
 
Roland Taylor
Roland Taylor
@HedgeMage we'll discuss that later I guess. I've got to get back to writing now.
@John there are extensive articles on the internet about the topic if you are interested. All I will tell you is this. Jesus himself performed many miracles while among that very generation. He was tactfully responding to a specific situation, and referring to himself (to my memory - I don't have the time for digging into specifics with the Jonah statement). He wasn't saying that miracles would not happen.
If he was, then Peter and the other Apostles would not have done miracles in Acts and beyond.
 
wax eagle
wax eagle
@John I would argue that the spirit's work in our modern era is more miraculous than anything in the past. I'm not a believer in speaking in tongues or most miracle healings (I think they are mostly quacks who misrepresent the spirit, or who want to over emphasize his place in the trinity). However, the Spirit's work in our hearts is just a miraculous as his work outside of persons previously.
 
Roland Taylor
Roland Taylor
BTW, why not study it from the Bible yourself.
@waxeagle I would disagree with you on those points too, but again, I don't want to argue, as that is probably what you are taught by your denomination. Speaking in tongues does happen (I don't do it myself though I did once before), I know people who do and trust me they are not faking it. I have also had the gift of interpretation operate before personally. As for miracles, they also do happen and I have witnessed them.
 
John
John
@RolandTaylor Because I'm very interested in what other people believe also.
 
Roland Taylor
Roland Taylor
6:54 PM
So be careful calling people quacks. Also remember, God is One. Do not under any circumstances down play the Holy Spirit and His place in the Trinity. It is disrespectful.
I have to go now. Blessings.
 
wax eagle
wax eagle
@RolandTaylor I'm not, I'm merely stating that I believe certain people (and in fact entire denominations) overplay his role. He becomes to them more important than the Father of the Son.
 
HedgeMage
HedgeMage
7:17 PM
returns from her shower
I can breathe! ;)
 
wax eagle
wax eagle
7:29 PM
@HedgeMage question, if there is a comment set that we think is too chatty should we flag a comment or the post?
 
HedgeMage
HedgeMage
@waxeagle please flag one of the comments -- it's a little more straightforward in the admin interface that way
 
wax eagle
wax eagle
@HedgeMage k
 
C. Ross
C. Ross
@HedgeMage How many posts do we need to fulfill commitment these days?
 
HedgeMage
HedgeMage
We'd figure it out either way, that's just easier because the flag will self-disappear once the comments are handled -- if you flag the answer we have to decide whether to validate or invalidate your flag because we acted on comments, not on the answer.
@CRoss I don't know, but I'll ask if you like.
 
C. Ross
C. Ross
@HedgeMage please, it's surprisingly hard to find out
 
wax eagle
wax eagle
7:38 PM
@HedgeMage gotcha
 
C. Ross
C. Ross
@waxeagle You should know that, or does Gardening get no flags?
 
HedgeMage
HedgeMage
@CRoss For you, any time ;)
 
wax eagle
wax eagle
@CRoss we have had like 7 in the month and yoda got all of them :). I have handled like 1
a few more comment flags, but he gets them before I do then too :)
 
HedgeMage
HedgeMage
darn that yoda for being so efficient!
 
wax eagle
wax eagle
@HedgeMage he is, I look like a slacker :)
 
C. Ross
C. Ross
7:39 PM
> yoda got all of them.
`nough said ...
 
HedgeMage
HedgeMage
7:53 PM
@CRoss The answer turned out to be a tad more complicated than I thought... it appears it's a Top Sekrit Algorythm that we don't want to reveal lest people game it. However, active participation (especially during the private beta phase) isn't set so high that we don't expect every committer to be able to reach it. You don't need 25 answers in private beta or anything.
 
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