The Upper Room - 2013-08-06

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12:03 AM

@waxeagle is nod a Jewish word? And I kindda knew it was a good thing, but I am also confused because you seem to say I shouldn't worry. But the fears are either from God or not from Him. So I am afraid again (if it makes sense) to say that these fears are not from God, because then it would kindda be rejecting God

@Ovi no, it's an action. as in "I nod"

@Ovi I'm saying the worry is normal but unnecessary I think it's good to think about these things and be concerned about them, but I also think that you should be able to take comfort in the fact that Jesus has saved you and getting the rest right should be an afterthought

@waxeagle and being a real Christian is just dependent on your faith, right? I keep thinking back to Paul Washer, where he seems to say that having faith is not exactly enough

@Ovi tbh this is probably the most debated thing in church history. I believe that yes, faith indeed is enough and that any works you do are a product of that faith. Others believe different things. I believe there is good biblical support for my POV.

@waxeagle ok thank you very much, God Bless You! I hope I can talk to you some other time.

@Ovi absolutely, I'm pretty much always here. May I ask if you're involved in a church?

12:11 AM

@waxeagle thanks, that's good to know. And yes I go to Calvary Chapel, it's a big church

@Ovi yep, we've got a few of them around here.

@waxeagle may I ask if you are from South Florida? I am from here and we have about 5

@waxeagle I think Florida is one of he states which has the most

12:32 AM

@waxeagle So, you acknowledge that the Roman Catholics were right all along about faith vs. works, right?

@waxeagle Hmmm... I wonder where theology fits in.

@Ovi NW Georgia, near chattanooga

@Anonymous no

@Anonymous as something to get settled after the really important things are dealt with.

@waxeagle So, in practice, you still need to get the right theology, right?

@Anonymous not really. I believe plenty of folks who believe the wrong things from my POV will be in heaven. Really and truly the only belief I think that is important enough to determine your eternal state is that you've accepted Christ as your savior.

@waxeagle Are you sure? "following salvation the Spirit grows a desire in you to change and do things. This is what James is talking about when he says "faith without works is dead" is what Catholics say to defend against the Protestant sola fide.

@waxeagle So, do you mean explicitly accept or implicitly accept? The former is vocalizing your belief in Jesus Christ as lord and savior; the latter is continuing practicing your own faith as long as you live in peace with Christians without accepting their god.

Cool. I'm a robot. I'm going to play with my robot voice!

Hello, world!

biblical-hermeneutics

Say, there are no questions tagged under biblical hermeneutics!

eschatology

Ooooh, that's a popular one. Now, let me try soteriology

Hee-hee-hee. I'm having fun! Now, let me try hamartiology

Drat! There's nothing under hamartiology. Let me try mariology.

OK, now I'm in the game. Let me try christology and theology.

Hmmm... I wonder if there would be a tag for the Holy Spirit. spiritology

I wonder if there would be a field of study devoted to Mary Magdalene: magdalenology

Let me try capitals: soteriology soteriology

Apparently, capitals would just be lowercased. Drat!

Oh, dear. I think I've used profanity too liberally. "Drat" is short for "God rot". thefreedictionary.com/drat

1:13 AM

@waxeagle Christ never said to accept him as "saviour" , rather he gave only TWO command ments for salavation, 1)Love God 2) Love Neighbours END OF STORY

1)Love God (love the one true God whom Jesus prayed to) and not some intellectully creative expression of God like trinity

2) Love neighbours as you love your own selves

And this was a special correction for the Jews who had lost all the innocence and sincerity in their faith

@Anonymous the problem is that people have made itellectually creative expressions for God e.g: trinity , "hypostatic union " and all those fancy words one could invent in one's free time in a monastery.

1:41 AM

@Ali Hmmm... Do you think Jesus may have been ahead of his own time?

@Anonymous Ofcourse all prophets are far ahead of their times

Joseph Weissman

even "untimely" :)

@JosephWeissman What do you mean by "untimely"?

Infact he was so ahead + radical that most people around him did not even understand him

I have come to believe that what has happened in Christendom, historically, is as follows:

1. Jesus and his gospel are exceedingly radical from any human point of view. The apostles and earliest disciples of Jesus therefore remained uncertain about the nature of the gospel and just what Jesus had accomplished in the world. Nevertheless they were intensely committed to him personally and therefore were exceedingly careful to see that his teachings were perpetuated as accurately as possible. In this they were carefully shepherded by the Holy Spirit. We have as a result a true repository of h…

Joseph Weissman

well, it's maybe intentionally overloaded; it could just simply mean ahead of one's own time, but perhaps also against one's own time, or even opposing a principle of history to one of eternity, etc.

1:44 AM

above quoted from here:voiceofjesus.org/b2introduction.htm

@JosephWeissman huh?

Joseph Weissman

what does it mean to be untimely?

does it mean to be ahead of your time?

but it might also mean working against your time somehow.

@JosephWeissman o_O

Joseph Weissman

--and it could be read as meaning something perhaps more stranger still: to be ahead of any time, to oppose to history the problems and principles of a pure time of eternity

And the Quran is the only book which truly reformed the faith of Jesus as the other reformers only reformed Paulism

through the centuries, there have been a few individuals who have known Jesus as he truly is(as a prophet of God , fully human, not God), and their existence provides an unbroken chain of witnesses. This is the situation as it continues today. The Quran only gave a voice to these minority people whose voice was lost among the rich and influential church

@JosephWeissman Being ahead of time means he was also viewed as zealot among his own people , infact this recently released book which is a biography on Jesus, has the title : Zealot

amazon.com/Zealot-Life-Times-Jesus-Nazareth/dp/140006922X

Joseph Weissman

1:56 AM

interesting!

2:13 AM

@Anonymous it might be what they say but it's not exactly what they teach

@Anonymous the first.

@Ali if you say so. Any argument that rejects the Bible as scripture, especially your whole Paul distorted Christianity argument, has absolutely no traction with me.

@waxeagle Got the evidence to support the claim that it is not what they teach?

The Roman Catholic Church has been praised for its social justice thought.

@waxeagle Hmmm... how explicit exactly? Could this be why Christians wish to evangelize the world so that the whole world will be "saved"? Does salvation extend to the birds and the bees, the bats and the trees?

@waxeagle There goes the whole Islam vs. Christianity battle, eh?

2:28 AM

@Anonymous yes, and no, salvation is a uniquely human concept (we believe that humans are the only creatures with souls)

@Anonymous yeah, I'm not buying what they're selling

@Anonymous more research than I'd care to do, but that social justice thought is actually in many ways an outpouring of their theology of works that's at least somewhat broken. It's a matter of how we look at things really. The catholic sees works as an obligation it's something you must do. The protestant sees good works as something that are free to do

3

Q: Does specific authorship of a given book of the Bible "matter"?

Based on a variety of previous questions, it seems that specific authorship of many parts of the Bible are not known for sure. For example (though I realize there are traditions of who wrote what): Job Ruth Esther Hebrews Question(s): Why is specific authorship considered important (eg the...

history canon authority authorship

I edited the question.

@Anonymous you're into dramatic edits today...that doesn't even try to fix what's wrong though

@waxeagle Well, you said that it had a wide scope.

@waxeagle Say, how do you know that I made a "dramatic edit" so fast? Do moderators have double or triple computer monitors or something?

@waxeagle Do dead humans count?

@waxeagle Is it because you already have a life commitment to Jesus?

@Anonymous I read it. and I've been around the block a few times

@Anonymous I have a few tabs open here :) and I'm not sitting here staring at this chat. Just since we've been talking, I've removed a virus from my wife's computer, played a few games, checked sports scores and put my wife to bed

@waxeagle But the Protestant approach is that good works are not required. I don't think the Catholic approach says whether or not good works are required. I think the Catholic approach says good works is the natural result of good faith in Christ. Therefore, it is expected that good works will show.

2:42 AM

@Anonymous Catholics do require them, as do Orthodox. We both agree that faith without works is dead (James 2:26), and that a man is justified by works and not by faith alone (James 2:24).

@waxeagle How many computers do you have? Is your wife's computer next to your computer in a big study room? How did you manage to fix your wife's bugged computer? Is she a computer expert? What games do you play? What sports scores are you checking? Why do you put your wife to bed? How old is she?

@Anonymous protestants also expect good works to show

@Dan So, does that involve going to Confession and confess all your sins since your last confession and give alms to the poor?

@Anonymous if you only count working computers than 3, if you count non working ones htan there are probably no less than 10 in the house. anti-virus and program uninstalls seem to have done the trick. I'm mostly playing games written for the Leap right now, tonight I've played Dropchord and Kyoto. peeking in on the Yankess White Sox game to see how A-Rod is doing. I tuck her in every night even if I'm not ready for bed. you're really asking for a woman's age?

@waxeagle Are you using your feet to play the games or your hands?

2:46 AM

@Anonymous hands

my toes don't stretch enough for precision on the leap :)

@Anonymous no, that is a misunderstanding of the nature of the sacrament of Confession

@waxeagle I thought adults would tuck children to bed, not other adults.

@Dan Then, what is the true nature of the sacrament of Confession?

@Dan Have you ever read Faust?

@Anonymous that's too broad a question to address in chat haha. But I will respond to why your previous comment is an incorrect understanding

@Anonymous I tuck my kids in too :) I tuck her in for many of the same reasons I tuck my kids in, because I love her, because it's nice to connect with her before she goes to sleep and because she gives me goodnight kisses :P

@Anonymous the dude who soul his soul to the devil or someone else?

2:50 AM

@waxeagle So, she sleeps by herself and not with you?

@Anonymous we sleep in the same bed, she just often goes to bed earlier than I do

@Anonymous the Gk word for confess is ὁμολογέω, literally "I say the same [thing]"

@Dan Well, he wanted knowledge and wanted to spend more time on earth on his quest for knowledge. When the devil came to take his life, he bought some time from the devil at a costly price. When the time was up, his indecision sealed his fate, and the devil dragged him to hell.

So confession is moreso agreeing with God than it is getting forgiveness as some sort of debt relief for telling our sins

@Anonymous but keep in mind that the Orthodox do not have share the notion of juridicial terms of atonement and thus the debt/payment model of thinking

@Anonymous ok yes

@Anonymous did you ever get a chance to check out orthodoxpress.org/parish/river_of_fire.htm ?

@Dan I scanned it. It was very long.

2:55 AM

@Anonymous haha I would consider it very short compared to most theology

The Jewish gentile seems to be an easier role than the Christian non-Christian. At least Jews don't expect gentiles to convert to Judaism, though they are still expected to obey the noahide laws.

The noahide laws seem to be pretty common sense.

Sort of.

@Anonymous yes, Judaism had not (and still hasn't as far as they are concerned) received a command to go proselytize :)

3:18 AM

@waxeagle If evangelism is inevitable, then I think I would prefer the Catholic way. The Protestant way can appear a bit crazy.

@Anonymous depends on the group. Some groups get it very wrong, other groups get it less wrong

Maybe a person may evangelize by building public works and funding sacred artworks. A non-Christian may pass by a church and find it attractive. Then, he/she may be absorbed into the Christian culture and do as the Christians do.

@Anonymous that's...not evangelism per say

@waxeagle Ok. Give me a wrong method.

@waxeagle But at least the new person is part of the Christian community, which is the point of the gospel. :)

@Anonymous some wrong methods: street preaching with no follow up, setting up churches with no pastors/pastoral training for leaders, short term missions with no local support, altar calls with no follow up...

@Anonymous no, that's not the point of the gospel at all

there is a difference between being a part of a church and being saved

3:25 AM

@waxeagle What do you mean by "follow up"?

@waxeagle Are you really talking about church planting?

@Anonymous sort of

@waxeagle why is why you think that the PCUSA is not evangelical?

@Anonymous essentially yes, at least some of their churches have lost this distinction

@waxeagle When you talk about "being saved", do you really mean "repenting to God that you're a sinner and require Jesus for support"?

@Anonymous yes, support might be the wrong word, but you've got the effective idea

3:29 AM

@waxeagle Wait. I got it. Announce that Jesus is your lord and savior, and recant of your previous sins and past life.

In reality, people don't change.

@Anonymous what makes you say that?

@waxeagle People are bound by their psychology.

The spiritual aspect may sound comforting, but it may just be in the mind.

@Anonymous I'd reply to that in two ways. The first is that one's phychology will not stay constant throughout your life. The second is that if you actually believe there are spiritual factors at work a puny human mind is really not much of an obstacle

3:43 AM

@waxeagle Hmmm... I wonder what would happen if a person thinks, "I am going to kill God. Muhahahahaha."

Deicide is the killing (or the killer) of a god. The concept is applied to the crucifixion of Jesus specifically, but may be used for any act of killing a god, including a life-death-rebirth deity who is killed and then resurrected. Jewish deicide places the responsibility for the death of Jesus on the Jewish people as a whole. As a part of the Second Vatican Council (1962–1965), the Roman Catholic Church issued a declaration which repudiated the belief in the collective Jewish guilt for the crucifixion of Jesus. Etymology The term deicide was coined in the 17th century from medieval...

@Anonymous is there any good reason to think that anything will happen?

3:59 AM

@waxeagle The hypothetical person may kill himself/herself and see if God really exists?

If only people can bring the dead back to life...

Frankenstein...

time for me to head to bed

actually that was over an hour ago...time for a late bedtime

Jeremiah 31:31-34 looks different for the Jewish and Christian bibles.

Does Elisha speak?

0

Q: Should tag 'eschatalogy' be removed or merged / made a tag synonym of 'eschatology'?

I noticed that the main site has tags eschatology and eschatalogy. The second is a misspelled version of first, of course. Should the misspelled version be made a tag synonym of the properly spelled version, or should it be removed altogether?

discussion status-completed tags tag-synonyms

9 hours later…

12:47 PM

@Anonymous How so?

getting some interesting questions today...not sure whether they're actually good or not, but they're interesting

(and I've been tempted to close at least 2 that I haven't)

Does Elisha speak?

1:26 PM

1

Q: How could this question possibly be narrowed down more?

About this question: any books on old testament apologetics? I can see this question as being problematic simply because it shows a lack of research, but I'm struggling to see how this could be closed as "too broad". It asks a simple yes or no question, to which there's a simple "yes" answer. ...

2 hours later…

3:36 PM

@RyanFrame This chabad.org/library/bible_cdo/aid/16028 looks different from this biblegateway.com/passage/….

The former says nothing about forgiveness.

I also notice that what counts as a verse is different.

> And no longer shall one teach his neighbor or [shall] one [teach] his brother, saying, "Know the Lord," for they shall all know Me from their smallest to their greatest, says the Lord, for I will forgive their iniquity and their sin I will no longer remember.

@Anonymous yeah it does

@Anonymous yeah, verse distinctions are not part of the original text, they were added later for reference

@waxeagle I know that. But what counts as a single verse and is added in as a single verse differ between the two texts.

@waxeagle See? What is verse 33 in the former is really verse 34 in the latter!

I wonder what would be defined as a verse.

@Anonymous yes, look at the first verse of each chapter. the NIV/ESV translators split the first verse into two whereas the CJB translators had them as one verse

I don't understand the things that go into translation well enough to understand the difference, but there isn't substantial difference in the text that I see

@waxeagle Does CJB stand for the 'Common Jerusalem Bible' or the 'Common Jewish Bible'?

Even better. this is a difference in chapter distinctions

the first verse of ch 31 in ESV/NIV is actually the last verse of ch 30 in the CJB

3:46 PM

@waxeagle Would that be a good question to ask on here?

@Anonymous common jewish bible, the one you posted

@Anonymous better for bib herm

there are no doctrinal ramifications I'm aware of wrt chapter/verse distinctions, BH would be able to address the historical and translation differences

@waxeagle Do you think it might be possible to raise Aesop's fables as a 'holy book'?

@Anonymous no

I don't think so

@waxeagle No? Why not? Is it because you think that Jesus' parables are collected together to describe the kingdom of God while Aesop's fables is a collection of disparate fables by Aesop?

@Anonymous in general because it's not read or regarded as a holy book

3:57 PM

user image

I mean one could read it as such

What is that?

@Anonymous it's a stylzed crest for the Evil League of Evil from Dr. horrible

@waxeagle Seriously?

@Anonymous yep

3:58 PM

@waxeagle What do you mean by "reading it as a holy book"?

@waxeagle AKA, Christianity.SE mods. ;-)

@waxeagle Why don't you use wax candles shaped in the form of eagles?

@Anonymous cuz

@JonEricson How do you quote both at the same time in one post?

@Anonymous I mean that it's not generally read with the same reverence, sincerity and level of interpretation as say the Quran, The Bible, the tanakh or even the buddhist scriptures who's name is currently escaping me.

4:00 PM

@Anonymous Manually. You can add a name with @user_name.

@waxeagle The Vedas?

@waxeagle Have you ever read The Loose Canon of the Flying Spaghetti Monster? It is a loose parody of the Christian Bible.

@Anonymous no, but I'm unsurprised to hear it exists

@JonEricson @JosephWeissman @waxeagle @JonEricson Cool!

@Anonymous (Don't abuse all your new-found power. ;-)

@waxeagle You do know about the Flying Spaghetti Monster, do you?

@user_name

@waxeagle So, do you pray toward the Father, the Son or the Holy Spirit - or all three at the same time in the form of God?

4:07 PM

@Anonymous I'm aware of the discussions of it's existence

@Anonymous I generally address the father and pray in Jesus' name. It's a fairly standard prayer form for protestants

@waxeagle Does that mean you really, really believe in the Flying Spaghetti Monster?

@waxeagle Do you know how to pray to Mary? Would a person pray to Mary in Jesus' name too?

@waxeagle Do you believe that Mary, mother of Jesus, was a perpetual virgin?

@waxeagle Why is virginity a good thing?

@Anonymous no

@Anonymous no, and protestants in general would not, that's pretty much a catholic thing.

@Anonymous not even a bit. she had sons after Jesus

@Anonymous it's equated with purity. But the more significant thing is that Jesus had to born supernaturally

4:26 PM

@waxeagle Neither do I.

@waxeagle OK. Is that a Roman Catholic thing or an Orthodox Catholic thing? Maybe both, because they both venerate Mary as Theotokos.

@Anonymous not sure about the Orthodox, but it's definitely a Roman Catholic thing

@waxeagle How do you pronounce 'Theotokos'? Do you really pronounce the 'th' sound or make the 'th' sound a 't' sound?

@Anonymous greek pronunciation is definitely not my strong suit

@waxeagle Apparently, even the Who was Jesus? documentary said so.

@waxeagle Why did Jesus have to born supernaturally? Wouldn't that take away his own human essence? And why use the term 'virgin' when the term 'maiden' would be more fitting in the 21st century?

@Anonymous because being explicit matters for the second. to the first, because of original sin, and no, he was fully human, still carried for 9 months in a womb, still birthed by a woman.

4:34 PM

@waxeagle What if original sin is false? After all, original sin is only a concept in Western Christianity.

@waxeagle Yeah, but if he were fully human, then why do you insist that he was divine? Hmmm?

@waxeagle And how do you know that he was carried for nine months in the womb? He could have been carried for 10 months or even a year!

@Anonymous he was also fully divine

@Anonymous 9 months is merely an aproximation. generally a pregnancy is ~40 weeks

@waxeagle Being fully human is being fully divine? Does that mean all humans are divine too? You know, that's not so far-fetched from Mormon theology, if I remember correctly.

@Anonymous no

He, and only he was both

@waxeagle How do you know that Mary's pregnancy is not exceptional? What if Mary never existed in the first place, or what if the biblical Mary is an exaggerated account of the real Mary?

@waxeagle Are you saying that because the messiah must be fully human, and you assume that Jesus is also fully divine because of the miracles he did? What if those miracles are only miracles? I think the documentary did say that there were other miracle workers at the time; Jesus only happened to be one of them.

@waxeagle FYI: 38 for twins. ;-)

4:42 PM

@JonEricson ooh I knew this :) and full gestation is 32 right?

@JonEricson Wouldn't that be for premature twins?

@Anonymous no that's full gestation for twins

@Anonymous No. Premature is much younger even for singletons.

@waxeagle Do you think it's easier being the father or the mother? Did your wife say anything to you when she was going into labor?

@JonEricson When would abortion be illegal? How far in the pregnancy?

@Anonymous nothing I can repeat here :P

4:44 PM

@waxeagle You mean she cursed at you?

@Anonymous It should be illegal to destroy human life anytime after conception.

@JonEricson In the United States, where abortion is legal, there is a point in the pregnancy where it is safe to abort the unborn child and unsafe to abort the unborn child. Forgotten what that point is.

Eschewmenical - The Christianity Stack Exchange Blog: An evangelical view of contraception

Jon Ericson on March 05, 2012

For my first post to the Eschewmenical blog, I have two goals: define my tradition (Evangelical) and explain our position on contraception. But the second task will require extensive work, so I will simply point to the definition supplied by the Institute for the Study of American Evangelicals at Wheaton College:

For my purposes, “biblicism” stands out. My approach follows the (unofficial) motto of The Evangelical Covenant Church: “Where is it written?”

When it comes to contraception, we Bible-thumping Evangelicals are at a disadvantage. Until recently, contraception was unreliable, unscient …

@Anonymous Realistically, abortion providers claim the life (or health) of the mother is endangered for late-term abortions. Legally, that overrides the viability criteria you are talking about.

I believe children can survive even as young as 22 weeks or so.

@JonEricson Hmmm... maybe instead of setting up a war against contraceptives, you might as well start some strong parenting programs to get kids off drugs and sex.

@Anonymous a lot of pro-life efforts do indeed focus on exactly this. Abstinence education etc

there are questions about whether it's effective but that's for another time. I'm honestly a proponent of contraceptives as a means for reducing abortions.

(ideally eliminating the need for them entirely)

But I also think that unexpected children are often a blessing in ways their parents cannot imagine when they are pregnant

5:01 PM

@waxeagle Like when Sarah became pregnant with Isaac when she did not expect to be pregnant?

@Anonymous that would be the extreme example :)

I was just thinking of my own children. Both of my boys were relatively unexpected.

@Anonymous Well, if you read my post, I'm not exactly going to war against contraceptives. ;-)

@waxeagle How is that extreme?

@Anonymous the blessing part :)

@waxeagle Are you saying that they are an accident?

5:04 PM

@Anonymous We've had two unplanned pregnancies. Lord willing (and medically-speaking) we won't have another.

@Anonymous my wife prefers "miscalculation"

@waxeagle You are saying that you never received a blessing from God?

@Anonymous no, what I'm saying that Isaac's blessing is perhaps the most famous and the most impactful blessing of any in history

@waxeagle miscalculation that the contraceptives failed and you ended up having the kids?

@Anonymous less failed, more weren't used at the proper times

5:08 PM

@JonEricson How do you tell the difference between 'planned' and 'unplanned'? How much does a person have to plan to be considered 'planned'?

@waxeagle real history or biblical history?

@Anonymous yes

@waxeagle so, does that mean real history or biblical history?

@Anonymous I'm guessing you aren't married. ;-)

@Anonymous I'll leave you to look that one up :)

@JonEricson I'm only in university. I have never married.

5:18 PM

@Anonymous If you ever do get married and have children, your spouse will let you know if the pregnancy was planned. (It's hard to explain if you haven't experienced it. ;-)

> Madison is not the first young athlete whose football career has been ended by an old man’s fear of a young man’s libido.

Except that the "young men" in this case are twelve years old!

> In America these days, a white man can put the word “Christian” in front of any behavior from boorish to criminal, and suddenly he’s untouchable.

@TRiG I saw that a couple of weeks ago. That should be the parents' decisions, not the school's.

5:36 PM

> It appears that atheists and Christians are finally working together on the same task: getting millennials to leave the church.

6:16 PM

@TRiG Except for Orson Scott Card, who has the audacity to put "Christian" before "marriage" and is blacklisted for it... :)

@TRiG The reasons listed seem to be fairly trivial. In America, if you don't like the church, find a new one, and if there isn't one you like, found a new one.

@Anonymous for these same reasons there is no real church discipline in American Christianity

"To believe in Jesus means believing that he was born of a virgin, rose from the dead and performed a number of miracles. There's no proof of any of that ever happened, and atheists place those stories in the same box as "young Earth creationism" and Noah's Great Flood." So, they want "proof" for everything? Sheesh. What about Aesop's fables or Gilgamesh's flood? Aren't they stories with meaning?

@Dan I think it's all about benefits and trade-offs.

@Anonymous ahh yes, consumerism

6:35 PM

@Dan Well, I wasn't really thinking of consumerism. I was just thinking that for every choice, there are benefits and trade-offs, and sometimes, the best choice would be one that maximizes benefits and minimizes trade-offs.

@Anonymous ahh, Mill's utilitarianism

That might not be so bad. Actually, I think that would be very economical. :)

@Anonymous ;)

livescience.com/38613-genetic-adam-and-eve-uncovered.html

@Anonymous it also depends on who benefits are maximized for, oneself or everyone involved? Utilitarianism best describes ethical decisions made for what is best all around, while ethical egoism would be when it is a personal consideration only

6:42 PM

@RyanFrame I love how scientists have named their works on biblical characters. LOL.

@Anonymous They should desire proof that Jesus rose from the dead -- it isn't the same type of claim as Aesop's fables. As Paul said, "if Christ has not been raised, then our preaching is in vain and your faith is in vain... your faith is futile."

@Anonymous It probably helps with marketing. We'll probably see some people claiming it's Noah and his wife.

@RyanFrame I do not think there is enough evidence to sufficiently prove that Jesus resurrected from the dead. Maybe people should really rely on faith that Jesus did not resurrect or did resurrect.

@Anonymous But I do think there's enough evidence; there is no definitive proof, yet there's no body either, so neither position can truly be known with certainty. We each believe what we find to be the most compelling.

@RyanFrame I think the source of the problem is the way that Genesis is being interpreted. If a person interprets the entire Genesis as facts rather than a series of stories about human nature and identity of the ancient Israelite people, then that person may wind up with some pretty bizarre ideas.

@Anonymous But what does that have to do with Jesus?

6:50 PM

@RyanFrame I was replying to your claim that some people might claim that it's Noah and his wife.

Oh. Yep.

Beautiful

I wish religion.blogs.cnn.com/2013/07/30/… can cite some of its claims. I'm interested in how the author manages to count the number of claims made by Christian apologists and by atheists. Hmmm... I wonder what type of Christian apologist in the first place.

The article mentions how church leaders cannot protect young people from traditional beliefs. I wonder what are the traditional beliefs, or whether or not they have been discredited by liberal Christians.

@waxeagle Sons after Jesus ???????? thats strange She remained virgin throughout?

@Anonymous I think he's right about many things, actually. There are a few times he seems to confuse a loud or well-publicized position with a majority position though; I'm not certain he understands the Christian positions he writes about/against.

@Ali I don't claim that (nor do most protestants)

7:01 PM

@Anonymous Are you a Muslim?

@Ali No.

@Anonymous I think many of the problems we're having are because church leaders thought they had to protect their youth.

So are you a christian?

@Anonymous

@Ali No.

It seems you dont believe in the theory of trinity?

So you are athiest?

7:03 PM

@Ali Nonreligious and unaffiliated.

@Anonymous Good so you belive in God?

The creed of Islam starts with that

Reject all dieties

And accept one true God

@Ali No. It depends on what you mean by "God". God can mean many things to many people.

@RyanFrame So, church leaders think that they have to protect the youth from "external evil forces", but then the youth still become attracted to the "external evil forces" by means of the Internet. Hmmm... that sounds like "Christians" are not living in the world in the first place. Are you referring to evangelical Christians?

So if I take the Islamic defination of God: in quran.com/112 which is the only scripture on earth that defines God objectively in concise : Will you believe in such a God?

English Translation by Yusuf Ali: for the above defination in Quran:
Say: He is Allah, the One and Only; [1] Allah, the Eternal, Absolute; [2] He begetteth not, nor is He begotten; [3] And there is none comparable unto Him. [4]

@Ali Are you trying to proselytize again?

What is proselytize? In our entire life we keep changing our views about things as we mature

This is just a discussion, I am not taking you to a mosque and making you say the shadah to convert to Islam

7:14 PM

@Anonymous I'm just saying that kids are intelligent and can think for themselves. The best way to teach them of God isn't to hide every atheist author from them, but to let (even encourage) them to read whatever they can get their hands on. Give them Dawkins, Russell, Nietzsche as well as Zacharias, McGrath, Kreeft, etc.

When they have questions, give them honest answers rather than ignore them or explain them away. If they never hear the atheist position from the church, they won't know how to respond when they hear it outside the church.

7:27 PM

@RyanFrame Hemant Hehta was brought up a Jain. He has, however, been to many Christian churches in the writing of his book I Sold My Soul on eBay.

@AffableGeek OSC is a lying hucktser, and is attacked for that, not for his Christianity.

@RyanFrame So, does that mean that evangelical Christians are finally becoming smarter?

@TRiG Who is OSC? How is OSC a liar? What did he do? As far as I know, I think he is the author of Ender's Game. I stopped reading it after the first few chapters, because I didn't like the way the author told his story. It's too casual and colloquial.

@TRiG So? When he says things like "the scientific explanation will devour the religious one. Mixing science and religion requires a distortion of one or the other" he's fallen into the same trap many others (atheist and theist) fall into. Unless science can prove or disprove the existence of God (it can't) they have little or no overlap. He seems to think "young earth creationism" and "religion" are synonyms.

@Anonymous Becoming smarter?

@RyanFrame Yes. Sometimes, when people have their opinions confronted, they may learn something new and the loopholes of that person's thinking.

7:43 PM

@Anonymous Yes. You can also learn the weaknesses in your own view. <-- And that is why the church needs to encourage kids to think for themselves -- we "protect" them instead of teaching them to think for themselves, then find that they don't know why they believe what they believe.

@RyanFrame Have you ever considered that some kids just don't have the time to attend church, especially for college students? College can be an extremely stressful period in a person's lifetime, because grades, extracurricular activities, community service, and undergraduate research are most important in that person's budding career.

@Anonymous That's just a matter of priorities. You make time for what you care about.

Does anybody else jump every time SE notifies you that you have a reply in chat? Even with the volume low it gets me.

@RyanFrame Maybe some kids see there is little importance of religion and lose their faith?

@RyanFrame I don't usually wear headphones

and that's the only speakers I have on my computers right now

@Anonymous Probably. I'm sure there are many reasons.

7:52 PM

Hmmm... I wonder how many people in my generation (Y generation, millennial generation) that are interested in religion recreationally, as an academic discipline.

8:23 PM

@RyanFrame Well, if, as you say, science and religion have little to no overlap, perhaps they shouldn't be mixed. I think Mehta is right in what he says, when people do try to mix religion and science, it certainly often leads to a distortion of science, and perhaps also of religion.

@Anonymous Orson Scott Card is a frothing-at-the-mouth bigot. He once called for an overthrow of the government if Prop. 8 failed. He also uttered this despicable, hate-filled lie:

> The dark secret of homosexual society — the one that dares not speak its name — is how many homosexuals first entered into that world through a disturbing seduction or rape or molestation or abuse, and how many of them yearn to get out of the homosexual community and live normally. It’s that desire for normality, that discontent with perpetual adolescent sexuality, that is at least partly behind this hunger for homosexual “marriage.”

He's not being boycotted for being a "Christian". He's being boycotted for being a hate-filled arsehole.

Anyone who sees those two positions as synonymous has their own problems.

@TRiG Yes, and using words like "hate-filled arsehole" shows how unhateful and rational you are being :)

3

@AffableGeek *is confused* When did I claim to be unhateful?

8:40 PM

@TRiG I would define religion as more or less a person's worldview and what defines a person's purpose in life. Sometimes, religion can be so integrated in a person's worldview that he/she is comfortable with the old worldview than the new worldview. I think it is better to adopt a faith that matches close to what one perceives as reality, and when there is challenge, attempt to adapt religion to accompany the conflicts in reality.

I'm pretty sure that God speaks through the Bible as much as God can speak through science.

@TRiG I sense paranoia.

@Anonymous I try not to diagnose over the Internet (or in real life, actually), but certainly it's freaking weird, whatever the underlying cause.

9:13 PM

@TRiG Paranoia is not necessarily a psychological disorder. It may be a feeling that someone is about to get you and persecute you.

9:28 PM

@Ali I don't see this "definition" as in contrast with either Judaism or Christianity. In fact, they are identical.

@RyanFrame haha. Yes. BOOP! What was that! Felt like my heart stopped.

@Anonymous Where I live, very few. Academic discipline must serve a purpose. In the US that purpose must be to get a job.

@TRiG You have equated hate with bad. In the same stream of comments you said things that sounded hateful. I would like to second this motion.

9:46 PM

@fredsbend No, I meant studying religion as a hobby, like computer programming, painting, or playing the piano.

@Anonymous Yes, I got what you meant. Rare, indeed.

Do you live in an area that has few Christians?

You seem so removed from it.

Which is hard to imagine, me being an American.

@fredsbend Esoteric subjects are rarely popular. The Big Bang Theory is a TV show about a couple of nerds. Next, it would be nice to see a TV show about a couple of theologians. Very exciting.

Not sure if I would call any of these characters theologians, though.

probably the best episode. The whole thing too!

@fredsbend Not sure. But there are a lot of churches! Actually, most of the houses of worship are churches, except one reformed Jewish temple.

They have a lot of people.

@Anonymous You don't know the general demographics of the area you live in?

10:01 PM

@fredsbend What do you mean by "so removed from it"?

@Anonymous Well, on one hand, you seem like someone who studies it, but on the other, you seem like someone who has had very little interactions with actual Christians.

@fredsbend Of course I do.

@fredsbend My knowledge of Christianity is mostly from the Internet. The Internet is mainly a source of information.

I actually do not study Christianity, or religion, as an academic discipline. Actually, I am just fascinated by the concept of religion. It seems very mystic.

Right, You have said that before. If you don't mind telling me, where do you live. General area is exact enough. A "hobby" of mine is studying the word choices, actions, beliefs, etc. of people from different places and backgrounds.

@fredsbend Midwestern United States.

@Anonymous Oh. Thanks for satiating my curiosity.

I have to do some work now. Talk later.

10:16 PM

@fredsbend What about you?

1 hour later…

11:46 PM

Some people just don't know how to deal with constructs, eh, @ElendiaStarman?

@TRiG my standard method is to hack them with a sword until they fall to pieces

3

Q: Why is Jeremiah 31:31-34 interpreted by Catholic Christians to point toward Jesus?

Why is Jeremiah 31:31-34 interpreted by Catholic Christians to point toward Jesus? How and why has Christianity fused together the idea of a Hebrew מָשִׁיחַ, or messiah, with the concept of something that God will do? Is the verse really pointing to a prophecy that will be fulfilled by a מָשִׁיחַ...

catholicism theology apologetics messiah

Wow. This is a really tough question. Still no answers yet.

Yet, I think this question strikes at the heart of Christianity.

I wonder how Christianity is pronounced. It could be CHRIS-TEE-AN-IT-Y or CHRIS-SHIN-AN-IT-Y.

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