The Upper Room

Zoe

6:00 PM

How about the "Whoever has seen Me has seen the Father?" He could only say that if He and the Father is the same?

AJ Henderson

@Zoe wait, I'm confused now

Zoe

@AJHenderson I know there are some verses in the Gospel that give clues to the now Trinity, wait I'm trying to find them

Flimzy

@Zoe I'm not arguing against the doctrine of the Trinity. I'm simply saying that it's not immediately self-evident from reading scripture.

@Zoe: You might want to read about the Arian controversy

AJ Henderson

@Zoe I think I misunderstood your meaning here

Zoe

@AJHenderson Sorry, which meaning?

AJ Henderson

6:04 PM

to me it sounded like you were saying that the Father, Son and Holy Spirit were three distinct entities that shared the position of being God, but I think I misunderstood

Zoe

Oh, but I have to say that I don't mind if people think God the Father and Jesus Christ and the Holy Spirit is not one God. I don't think it matters in terms of salvation and will of God.

AJ Henderson

John 10:30 is also pretty compelling

@Zoe yeah, exact nature of God is by nature not fully knowable to us and non-critical to salvation

Zoe

@AJHenderson Not like share the position as in rank, I don't think they are equal in rank but they have the same Godly nature and the same Will, i.e. what they want is the same? Just have different roles

AJ Henderson

we simply have no basis by which to really understand their relationship

@Zoe ok, yeah, in that case we are closer to the same view than I thought

your initial wording made me think you were saying they were simply three completely distinct entities linked in purpose rather than being both distinct and the same

Zoe

Why is non trinitarian deem heretic?

Who can judge the matters of God except for God Himself

AJ Henderson

6:07 PM

the same reason that people who baptize infants/adults have been

Zoe

I don't fully agree with Arianism. I am reading it right now

@AJHenderson I have written list on the "perfect baptism" according to the Bible.

I saw it on a site and double checked the verses used

i think it's okay

Flimzy

@Zoe Your stated view flatly contradicts Arianism. My point is to show you that it was a large controversy, for a very long time.

Zoe

I don't like it when they say subordinate....

Flimzy

@Zoe: The Arians read the exact same verses you did, and came to a different conclusion. Their opposition, the Nicenes, also had a different view.

So, you see, it's not "plainly obvious" from reading scripture that the trinity is the truth.

The Nicenes believed Jesus and God were identical... different names for the same thing.

And the Niceans and the Arians killed each other for nearly 50 years over the difference.

And the read the same scripture you and I do (albeit in another language)

AJ Henderson

I'd also point out that any time people come down to killing each other over a Christian theological difference, there is more going on there than a legitimate difference in discernment

there are political factors at work then

with sinful motivations

Zoe

6:11 PM

Just as basing the identification with a denomination by the age of the earth is a little absurd, so is killing people over theological differences. Only God can judge those who break His commandment. I just think the creed people (Nieans/Arians) weren't as Godly as they thought they were.

Flimzy

@AJHenderson: Of course.

Zoe

Which is why I don't follow denominations.

AJ Henderson

@Zoe yeah, I'd agree with that, age of the earth is not even a theological topic really

Zoe

Sigh

Why do self proclaimed christians follow a creed or denomination or doctrine that breaks God commandment by way it was formed?

I will never understand... is following God not enough?

AJ Henderson

@Zoe mostly to be able to follow Matthew 15

we are called to put out people from the church who claim to be Christian in a false manner, we are NOT called to kill them

Flimzy

6:14 PM

@Zoe: Well, that's kind of the point I was making. Your statement about how you view the trinity is following a "creed or denomination or doctrine" which was formed by a group which broke God's commandments.

@Zoe: So even YOU follow a creed/doctrine which violates your own princple

AJ Henderson

but it is important to be able to identify what is core to true salvation doctrine

when was the Naicean creed formed relative to the war?

Zoe

@Flimzy Do you mean follow as in agree completely? And defend it?

Sigh, I do not know what is the exact definition of the Trinity.

Flimzy

@AJHenderson The first council of Nicea was held in 325. The earliest form of the trinity was written in 352. Between those two dates were most of the violence.

Zoe

Or the definition that came from the result of some war

Flimzy

Zoe: Knowing the precise definition of the trinity isn't that important... my point is that the entire concept of the trinity came out of years of blood shed, and wasn't immediately obvious. So if you agree with that concept, you're not following the "I only follow the Bible, not men" concept.

Zoe: But I also think that "I only follow the bible, not men" isn't a particularly valuable concept to hold, either.

Zoe

6:17 PM

12 mins ago, by Zoe

@AJHenderson Not like share the position as in rank, I don't think they are equal in rank but they have the same Godly nature and the same Will, i.e. what they want is the same? Just have different roles

Flimzy

I think what's more important is to follow the truth, whether it's found plainly in scripture, or it's supported by scripture as interpreted by sinful people.

Zoe

Was that the exact Trinity that resulted from war?

I guess I don't mind to start saying we serve 3 Gods if the Bible taught that

Flimzy

Zoe: The trinity at all came as a result. The two previous ideas were that there was one single God, who had two (or three) names: Father, Son and Holy Spirit. Vs. the concept that there was one God, Father, and one creature, the Son, and one... nobody-really-knew-what-possibly-also-the-Father, the Holy Spirit

Zoe

But the Bible didn't. From Genesis, God is singular but He says "our image"

AJ Henderson

@Flimzy - I'm a bit confused, it seems like the concept of them not being a trinity didn't appear until 325

Flimzy

6:20 PM

@AJHenderson: Where are you reading?

Zoe

Am I supposed to prove the trinity by the Bible?

Flimzy

Zoe: Not at all.

@Zoe: I guess you're still completely missing my point.

@Zoe: You said you only trust the Bible, but you don't trust in men's interpretation of the bible. My point is that you DO trust in men's interpretation of the bible, as well... if you believe in the trinity.

Zoe

@Flimzy That's because I don't know the word Trinity until this year, but I've always known there is only one God.

AJ Henderson

@Flimzy looking at wikipedia, but it mentions several references starting around 110 and going through to the early 200s where the trinity appears, then the armenian's appear to have shown up disagreeing with it, sparking the war

Zoe

Trinity to me is that weapon from League of Legends and I was wondering why are people saying it when they talk about God and stuff

AJ Henderson

6:23 PM

so it would seem that it was clear to many from scripture that they were linked somehow

Flimzy

@AJHenderson let me take a look

Zoe

And then I went to look up on the definition, I saw a picture explaining it and quoting Bible verses in support of it, didn't quote any war or who made it.

AJ Henderson

which also makes sense given basic things like Christ's claim that "I and the Father are one"

not to mention things like "In the beginning was the Word and the Word was with God and the Word was God"

and then later pretty strong links that Jesus is The Word

Flimzy

@AJHenderson Indeed, I think it was clear to early Christians they were all linked "somehow". The "somehow" was the controversy.

Zoe

There are indeed many Bible verses that point to God being one and many at the same time, from Genesis onwards. One has to realise that there are mysteries in the Bible, maybe the translation of the Bible that the war people had were much different from ours, or they read a different language or whatever. God may also have hidden it from them by His will, who knows?

Jesus Himself makes mention of the scripture being confusing to certain groups. All I really realise is the scripture being fulfilled.

Flimzy

6:26 PM

The first council of Nicea was intended to unify the Christian church, which at the time had two primary opposing views: 1. That the Father and Son were the same (i.e. different names for the same thing), and 2. that the Son was a subordinate creature, elevated to deity.

AJ Henderson

@Zoe well again, if someone is fighting a war over it, they clearly were not discerning, because there is no justification for a "holy war" possible in Christianity

without getting quite extrabilblical

Flimzy

Both of those views have elements of the modern concept of the trinity (as did many other views)

Zoe

So, I guess I am stuck between a rock and a hard place by what I said because it all sounds like that thing from that cruel war. Well, the Bible didn't teach three God, the Bible taught that three of Them were from the beginning, uncreated and unmade.

And they agreed as One, the Father is the Son etc.

So I guess, I believe in this "Trinity" after all. What bad luck, I believe in the same thing that came from that war

AJ Henderson

@Zoe but it didn't come from that war

just because that war happened to occur about the issue doesn't mean it is the cause of the view

Zoe

Idk, whatever violence. Idk what happened

Or violence that occurred due to theological difference

Flimzy

6:28 PM

@Zoe It's not bad luck. And it didn't come "from" the war. It did come out of a long conflict, and it was written by sinful people. But that doesn't make it bad or wrong.

@Zoe: That's my point. Even sinful people can present and interpret the truth. And God can use sinful people to do good things.

Zoe

@Flimzy Nor does it discount what I said about following the bible

Flimzy

@Zoe No, it only discounts what you said about NOT following men's interpretations of scripture :)

Zoe

No it doesn't

Flimzy

Okay, whatever.

it's not worth arguing about.

Zoe

@Flimzy Thank God you realised that.

I always thought the Nicene Creed was a group of people who rules over some christian sect

Like Assassins Creed

Flimzy

6:30 PM

I wasn't trying to argue in the first place. I was just trying to show you that your statement was, in my view, naive.

I was trying to enlighten you a bit.

Zoe

Sigh. Resemblance doesn't always mean same source.

@Flimzy Thank you for your effort. I hold my stand, though.

I still haven't found what kind of denomination I most identify with

That may be because I do not know enough denominations

Flimzy

If you disavow every belief that is shared by someone who does something bad, you can't possibly believe anything.

Zoe

Just want to know which denomination believes the same as I do

Flimzy

No denomination will ever believe exactly the same as you.

Well, unless you start your own denomination :)

Zoe

I went to look up Apostolic

@Flimzy Ah, I could! But I would get killed faster.

Flimzy

6:35 PM

Just make sure that your denomination's statement of faith says "Whatever Zoe believes"

or else even you won't agree with your own denomination after a while

Zoe

I think it should say The Bible is all there is.

Flimzy

Of course different people interpret that differently.

which is why denominations exist in the first place

Paul Vargas

@Flimzy There is a cartoon for that:

Zoe

First Council of Constantinople

Is that trinitarian?

Paul Vargas

4

@Zoe What's is your point of view about the Trinity?

Zoe

6:38 PM

@PaulVargas Is it 3 in 1?

I don't have a view of the Trinity because I don't really know what it's definition is.

This is the picture that I saw

Paul Vargas

Trinity

The Christian doctrine of the Trinity (from Latin trinitas "triad", from trinus "threefold") defines God as three consubstantial persons, expressions, or hypostases: the Father, the Son (Jesus Christ), and the Holy Spirit; "one God in three persons". The three persons are distinct, yet are one "substance, essence or nature". In this context, a "nature" is what one is, while a "person" is who one is. According to this central mystery of most Christian faiths, there is only one God in three persons: while distinct from one another in their relations of origin (as the Fourth Lateran Council declared...

Zoe

6:53 PM

@PaulVargas As I read on, it's actually not relevant at all to salvation. I think as long as I know there is one God and the three Persons share the same role and are deity, that's good enough for me.

@PaulVargas Is there a one liner or two liner that explains what the Trinity is? Like a definition?

Paul Vargas

@Zoe This is another definition: Trinity - Theopedia, an encyclopedia of Biblical Christianity

Flimzy

A concise definition would be something like: The trinity is three cosubstantial persons in one Godhead.

But by making it that concise, you leave yourself open to a lot of "But what do you mean by _____?" questions

Zoe

@PaulVargas That picture hurts my eyes

I hope people do not base their lives on the Trinity

Flimzy

If you mean on understanding the trinity.. .then I hope you're right

But I don't think one need understand it to base ones life on it.

All Christians ought to base their life on the trinity

seeing as how Jesus Christ is part of the trinity

Zoe

Trinitians

If I recognise the deity of Jesus but insist that we have only one God, would that be trinity as well?

And ofcourse the deity of the Holy Spirit

Paul Vargas

7:05 PM

@Zoe Are you a Unitarian?

Flimzy

All Trinitarians believe in only one God.

Paul Vargas

@Zoe Ah! I just saw your profile.

Zoe

@PaulVargas I've no idea what that means. Maybe someone could ask me what questions and see what denomination i best resemble

Paul Vargas

Hi, @Flimzy Where are you now?

Flimzy

@PaulVargas En las fueras de Madrid, España.

In a tiny town called Quijorna

Zoe

7:10 PM

I always thought the story of creation was passed down from generation to generation....

Paul Vargas

@Flimzy ¿Cuánto cuesta una botella con medio litro de agua por aquellos rumbos?

Zoe

Well not always, these few days.

Flimzy

I have no idea... I've been drinking tap water here, which is said to be the best in spain.

Paul Vargas

@Zoe Are you saying that the story of creation was kept orally for several millennia?

Zoe

@PaulVargas It's possible? Christianity wouldn't be the first religion with stories passed down. And then some information left out here and there and trimmed, that's why there are no dinosaurs in Genesis.

I've no idea

Paul Vargas

7:14 PM

@Zoe There are no dinosaurs, but there are monsters. The word did not exist until recently.

Zoe

I was in a discussion about this with a friend and I asked if there were people who knew the story of creation but did not cite Moses writings in the Bible, because it would narrow down how Moses knew

@PaulVargas As big as the Trex?

Paul Vargas

@Zoe There were many stories in the time of Moses. So he wrote the true story. Do you believe in the inspiration of Scripture?

Zoe

Aside from the Behemoth, that is.

@PaulVargas I do which is why I don't really agree it was a vision from which he knew

Paul Vargas

@Zoe As big as a blue whale?

Zoe

@PaulVargas Land animal that could be seen easily

I doubt 40 days is enough to write history of the world

Or maybe we shouldn't take the Bible as a history book

Flimzy

7:22 PM

Parts of the bible are certainly historical

other parts clearly aren't.

and other parts yet are debated

Matt Gutting

@Zoe depends on how fast you write

Zoe

@MattGutting But there are so many other things he needed to write also... And I'm pretty sure God has priorities also.

Paul Vargas

@Zoe Do you mean the Pentateuch? The 40 days on Mount Sinai?

Zoe

@PaulVargas Yea

Flimzy

@Zoe: I like you. I like the way you think critically about these things :)

Paul Vargas

7:24 PM

@Zoe Do you think that Moses took with him Papyri or something similar to write?

@Flimzy Assumptions.

Flimzy

I've been talking to her long enough to see that she's a critical thinker. I'm not assuming.

Zoe

@PaulVargas I'm not sure. If he did, it should have been important enough to record that he tore the pages or they flew away as he came down from a mountain. Apparently it wasn't important, probably didn't have time to write or didnt take it with him

Or he did take with him, as extras :)

Paul Vargas

@Zoe According to as the text is structured, seems to be written later.

Zoe

Anyway, one of the question that came up in the discussion was, why did the slaves trust Moses unless they all shared the same or similar knowledge on this God that created the heaven and earth if Moses was like a stranger to them? If it was a vision, than it would be 99% right to assume that Moses was the only one in the cohort to know the story of creation, which would be absurd.

However, if one was in a really disastrous situation, one would follow a above average saviour that killed one's tormentors, regardless of sharing the same knowledge. So, it is hard to know, still.

@PaulVargas Let me re-read the part when he came down

Paul Vargas

@Zoe At what point was revealed to him the real story? While he lived in Egypt? It is important to make that distinction.

Zoe

7:33 PM

Well, it's possible he had it. but I don't think he took it up the mountain.

Paul Vargas

@Zoe What do you think of the apostle Paul? When it was revealed to him the mystery of the Church?

Zoe

@PaulVargas I was thinking, if it was a story/legend/myth in the times before him, than it is safe to assume that many families outside of Moses' would also know of a similar story. A vision vastly limits the amount of people who know the story of creation before moses wrote them down.

@PaulVargas Are those two separate qns or?

Paul Vargas

@Zoe Of course. They knew a story of creation. Not necessarily the story of the Bible.

Zoe

@PaulVargas But since it is not something the Bible explicitly records, I can't answer the question on CSE :P It just got me thinking

And I'm not even a 1 year old christian so, there's alot of things I am learning and thinking about

Flimzy

@Zoe How did you become a Christian, if you don't mind my asking?

Zoe

7:39 PM

@Flimzy I have a note written in case someone ask me it, because many people I talk to do ask, it's a long note, do you have an email i can forward it to?

Flimzy

@Zoe Sure. let me send it in a private message, to hide it from spammers, etc.

Zoe

Paul... his name makes my head go round

Paul Vargas

@Zoe @Flimzy The important thing is to understand is who inspired the story... The creation story in Genesis... does it come the man or from God?

Zoe

@PaulVargas The first thing I realised when I had the notion that maybe Genesis was a story passed down from generation to generation is this: That the first line of the entire Bible was also written by faith, is mind blowing.

Paul Vargas

@Zoe pvargas@maranatapr.org :-)

Flimzy

7:43 PM

@PaulVargas I'm going to sell your email address to spammers now! Buwahahaha

Zoe

@Flimzy Wait, I didn't get it, the chatrooms are hard to navigate LOL

Flimzy

@Zoe Oops. I'll try again

Zoe

@Flimzy But it's free!

Paul Vargas

@Flimzy Quiero la mitad.

Zoe

wUT

I was in

and then it just navigated me to chatroom page

there needs to be a PM

for this site

Matt Gutting

7:46 PM

@Zoe Prime Minister? Project Manager? ;-) (Know what you meant)

Flimzy

I agree, PM would be ideal

Zoe

@MattGutting Pizza Maker

Matt Gutting

@Zoe No fair. You're making me hungry ;-P

Flimzy

I am hungry. I should go get dinner. it's late here

Paul Vargas

@Flimzy What's time is it in Madrid?

Flimzy

7:47 PM

nearly 10pm

the sun just went down... sky is still partially lit

Paul Vargas

@Flimzy Are you afraid of the dark?

I will not tell anyone.

Zoe

Wahaha, editing some things in the note

Paul Vargas

@Zoe No problem.

Zoe

Now I have no idea how to delete a room

Paul Vargas

@Zoe A chat room?

Zoe

7:55 PM

@PaulVargas Yea

Paul Vargas

@Zoe @Flimzy have powers of mod

Zoe

Oh nice!

@PaulVargas Sent! It's loooooong

AJ Henderson

8:38 PM

what do you want to delete?

@Zoe the lack of private messages is actually very intentional and not likely to change any time soon. If there are issues related to moderating the site where privacy is needed, moderators can produce private rooms

but they are only used for moderation related issues

presumably it was the zoe and flimsy room you wanted to nuke?

if not, Flimzy or I can un-nuke it

(or any of the other mods that hang out in here)

Paul Vargas

@AJHenderson It's a very difficult question.

Zoe

8:59 PM

@AJHenderson Yea, nuke it.

I didn't answer but I gave comments. christianity.stackexchange.com/questions/31834/…

Alright, good morning, I'm gonna sleep. 5am here!

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