Charcoal HQ

@angussidney Undo's proposal. We let people sign up for autoflagging, but reserve 2 of 3 autoflags on every post for our "core" people.

@Nathaniel A user script we use

@Nathaniel It's a userscript that automatically sends feedback to Metasmoke when we flag

It feeds back on posts when we flag

9:00 PM

@Nathaniel github.com/Charcoal-SE/Userscripts

@angussidney Idea is to have two groups of flaggers, core and not-core. Core folks would get some percentage of slots allotted to them, to keep rewards coming to us.

Flag dialog smokey controls

Nathaniel

Gotcha; thanks. I figured it wasn't the top google result for that acronym :)

Not-core folks would get fewer flags, and basically act as a reserve for if we need them

@Nathaniel raw.githubusercontent.com/Charcoal-SE/Userscripts/master/…

9:01 PM

@Nathaniel It's a bit overwhelming, I know

Like, say, if we wanted 5 flags and the spammers decided to save up for a week vacation

We're all so used to our toolset

@Undo so basically any Ms user is eligible, but users with the autoflag priv get 2 of the slots?

@Nathaniel lol, Flying Dutchmen Ski Club

@angussidney Something like that, yeah

Should probably flip default privs from reviewer to flagger.

9:02 PM

@Undo one thing

Possible counter argument for allowing signups: Support we have to provide. I see this as support for learning SD/MS, learning how to set up their preferences, support for dealing with the eventual declined flag (remember, in a flood of people, some are going to be here for the free flags), and support for when it doesn't work ("why am I need getting free flags?!")

Massively increased MS and CHQ volume will more then triple or quadruple the admin workload

We'll have to have more frequent feedback invalidation checks

@Andy that's a point

Very big point

So we'd have to get a few more admins

9:03 PM

Could probably be alleviated a lot if we polished the signup process, which is doable.

My proposal: Post the Meta topic with sign ups disabled, mention it is disabled while the post is active, and reenable sign ups after a week. Anyone still interested at that point can come back

and some more people who can authoritatively tell people what to do when they ask questions

I'd vote @ThomasWard

I'm willing to take that workload on. We'll probably get less signups than you think; plus we now have 5 admins; plus this doesn't actually take a lot of time already

Plus, it gives us a week to see the influx of users and answer the common questions

9:03 PM

Yeah

I'd also be able to take that on. Between me and @ArtOfCode we've pretty much got all the timezones covered

We could run a MS admin election

:o

If we did that, @Andy, I'd probably vote less than a week - activity will die off much quicker than that

@Undo and @angus

@Magisch heh. We'd only need 1 or maybe 2 slots, but it'd be fun

@Magisch you're forgetting that metasmoke is a mostly-benevolent dictatorship

@ArtOfCode that's fair. "a week" is a flexible number :)

9:04 PM

@Undo So is SE

Yeah, we have 24/7 covered with almost full overlap

@Undo You could do it like SOCVR did it for the ROs

@angussidney I overlap you in the morning, Undo comes on mid-afternoon for me, and we both overlap you in the evening.

Have interested people write a nomination and then pick

Nobody is ever in my time zone

9:05 PM

Probably not strictly needed though

@Mithrandir what's that?

... so... possible alternative... Hide the signup link somewhere in the middle with no special formatting. Lots of uncommitted folks just read the beginning and the end of a longish question.

rene

@Magisch Man, war zone during the pick ...

Could act as a natural filter

It's after 11pm now

9:05 PM

@rene I know you didn't pick me for the SOCVR :p

our last admins were chosen by me emailing Undo and saying "hey need more coverage, angus is sane and could do that" and Undo saying "yeah and Andy has experience, done"

@Undo I like this.

Sneaky.

rene

@Magisch right, right ...

Maybe we should cross that bridge when we get there

@rene I don't begrudge you

@ArtOfCode heh, even I didn't know that

@angussidney democracy!

or rather, emailocracy!

9:08 PM

common sense based governance

basically

read: impossible to scale

fortunately, we don't need to scale too far

@ArtOfCode Maybe we could set up a slack channel between us admins so we don't have one of us saying 'hey I wasn't included in the email'

@angussidney hmm

9:09 PM

@angussidney then it'd be Undo saying "I didn't have Slack open"

but yes

Might be more scalable to add an "email all your fellow admins at once" thing on metasmoke

@ArtOfCode 1. Open your email program of choice, 2. Save "All MS admins" as contacts, 3. Profit

though Slack is less effort... or Discourse, that's pretty good

We could probably get a private room if we really wanted it. That'd be ideal.

@ArtOfCode or get Andy and hichris to join smokey@charcoal-se.org mailing list that we have

9:11 PM

@angussidney or this

But honestly, there's extremely little that actually gets discussed in private that it's a strong meh

I've been missing emails?!

About one

Do we even need more admins then if we do a meta post

deletes a spam email that just arrived

9:11 PM

The Mark situation

If the current ones are willing to shoulder extra work

@Andy well you ain't on the admin mailing list, but there hasn't been much on it

@Magisch Not really. If the workload is explaining stuff, you've been doing a fine job of that already

(and lots of other folks here)

@ArtOfCode Mostly joking :) Though, I'd be appreciative if someone would add me so that I can stay informed

Dont need admin for that

9:12 PM

[ SmokeDetector | MS ] Few unique characters in answer: How important is eating halal meat? by olu on islam.SE

Although

metasmoke privs are pretty much managing permissions and invalidating feedback. That scales pretty easily.

@Undo I can't give out privs or anything, so I have to make PRs for that. Probably for the better though

@Andy which email you want me to add?

@Magisch Those'd be Git privs, different thing

9:13 PM

@SmokeDetector k

@Undo All admins have them though, right?

@ArtOfCode the Hardware Recs one

and probably something that should be considered.

cool, I still remember that one :P

nice and easy :)

9:14 PM

@ArtOfCode how can I opt-out when I don't have the flagger role in the first place? :P

@Undo The reason I never got those is IIRC the biggest use (blacklisting) got made redundant by the commands

@Floern you sure you don't? You have a condition...

a flag condition, that is

not as in you're mental. probably.

You're so busy talking you're not abusive flagging

@ArtOfCode yes I have created one for fun

@Mithrandir NAA imo

9:15 PM

Er naa

~~Completely empty~~ draft meta post on autoflagging. Feedback welcome once there's something there on which to back the feeds.

2

@Floern that probably shouldn't be possible

FIRST

Set to can-comment because of the fun we had with the last one.

@SmokeDetector naa

9:15 PM

@Mithrandir Recorded answer as an NAA in metasmoke.

@Floern you're plenty eligible for it, if you want it

@ArtOfCode I think @Undo said the same

also, I'm going on a road trip starting tomorrow morning. Might be disappeared for long lengths of time.

@Undo something I should have MS access for, or have you got enough?

@ArtOfCode should have enough for console-poking if necessary

9:16 PM

@ArtOfCode if you want to sign me up, go for it :P

@Undo can we agree to wait 24 hours before posting so that everyone gets a chance to look it over and edit etc

@angussidney absolutely

completely unrelated: can the graph on this page accept annotations? If so, if there a way to annotate today as the day max flags jumped from 1 to 3? That'd be helpful in the future

@angussidney yes, and someone's gonna have to write it first.

FR: privilege_add $room $<relevant user id> command

9:17 PM

@Floern you'll have to set yourself up, but you've got the permission now

@Andy That'd be a good idea, we can draw it from flag settings audits.

@Undo same key as last time should still work

@Magisch not exactly easy, and not really worth it

@ArtOfCode If necessary I'll add it. Don't think it will be, and I consolidated the servers.

@angussidney In preparation for the user influx we'll surely get soon

9:18 PM

@Undo cool

Pings should still reach me, I just won't be at my full battlestation.

@Magisch meh, PRs are cheap

I suppose

@Andy invitation sent

Also, who's good with memes? We need to have a few memes in that meta post

9:21 PM

heh

true positives - it's OVER 9000

I don't always automate networkwide casting of spam flags based on regex-fueled heuristics, but when I do, they're ridiculously accurate.

(That was terribad I know)

@undo the doc is comment only, is that intentional?

@Magisch too much technobabble

@ArtOfCode accepted

@angussidney yes.

8 mins ago, by Undo

Set to can-comment because of the fun we had with the last one.

@angussidney intentional due to the last one getting replaced with spam. Give me an email address if you want edit privs

9:24 PM

naa- by Glorfindel

I am headed home, but if no one has started in that document in about 7ish hours, I'll take a first crack at it then.

sweet

Still seems to be comment only

@Undo have fun!

@Undo if a post is autoflagged three times, does the websocket fire one time (with information about three flaggers) or three times?

9:26 PM

@Glorfindel It'll fire three times.

That could be changed if we wanted

Undo, can you provide my HR email address with edit privs?

@ArtOfCode lol

aye

fp- by J F

DW, I just had to click the link in the email rather than the notification

Q: Is it a problem when users have a spammy username?

9:27 PM

@SmokeDetector f

Processed Meat

0

I noticed a new user named j658063 DOT mvrht DOT com, curious I went to the primary domain which leads to some sort of get rich quick site. Perhaps they are hoping search engines will somehow parse the name into a link. Maybe it is innocent and a convenient name. However I am curious, is using...

so do we just start writing in the document, or are we waiting for someone else to write?

@NobodyNada I don't think there's really a process here

@ProcessedMeat probably discouraged, but afaik nothing technically wrong with it

If we start stepping on eachother's toes, folks can create their own google docs as a fork.

9:28 PM

I'm gonna start writing something, but I'll start further down the page

Also, if anyone wants data/graphs or anything else specific from metasmoke, I can probably get it

I'll stay here and pretend I'm going to bed

@Undo OK, then my crystal ball has been working.

No time to fix it tonight, sadly.

@Glorfindel It shouldn’t — I rewrote the entire decorate function.

@Glorfindel If it makes more sense, we could send the whole post once after the flag logic runs

9:31 PM

@JF OK, didn't know that. I haven't had time yet to get acquainted with your changes.

I'll watch the document and possibly comment here.

Kyll

@ProcessedMeat Commented

Do we or do we not want a list of users who are very involved?

I don't see a reason to have that embedded. If we want, link to the charcoal-se.org page

Perhaps in Art's What's Charcoal section?

9:35 PM

yeah, Art already did it

Google Docs is so cool. I love it

Their mobile page isn't great

true

I have to reload to see new changes

huh, I just realized I memorized my chat ID. That's scary.

@Mithrandir get the app, it's (near) instant. I'm using it now

@Undo 11540 is mine I think

9:41 PM

that's the room ID. Close

@angussidney no room

113 something...

this thing has a lotta links

@Undo I know mine and yours off by heart. And my SO id.

And my network id.

[ SmokeDetector | MS ] Bad keyword in title, phone number detected in title: Tera+ hi+ Chehra+ Facebook+ contact+ number+ (1844 762 8448 )+ Facebook+ telephone+ number+ (1844 762 8448 )+ united+ states by hfjfjjfgfg on stackoverflow.com (@dorukayhan)

@SmokeDetector k

@SmokeDetector autoflagged

9:42 PM

@Mithrandir That post was not automatically flagged by metasmoke.

!!/addblu webapps.stackexchange.com/users/147190/hfjfjjfgfg

@Undo User blacklisted (147190 on webapps.stackexchange.com).

@SmokeDetector 165 score, amazingly enough

Also, we never implemented that super-awesome code integrity system. I'm not really convinced we need it, actually

We should probably be thinking about where and who should post this

@Undo nominate you on meta.se

I'm a little partial to mSO, actually, because we have a pretty decent shot at getting on the sidebar.

9:49 PM

Or Art

Since he's writing most of it

mSE might be the formally correct choice, but I'm not convinced it's the correct choice practically.

@Undo I agree. Many of the "power users" are active on both MSO and MSE, and with MSO we'll get a few days of sidebar.

If we are posting it on SO, the post needs to be tailored slightly to show how it's beneficial to SO

true, it's much more beneficial to smaller sites than to SO

I'm not active on SO :P

9:52 PM

@Mithrandir SO what?

@NobodyNada I thought that too, but I suspect we'd get more people from those smaller sites reading it on mSO than on mSE.

Sheer volume and proportions

@Andy i.e. both with overall statistics and SO-specific statistics.

I'd be happy with MSO

@Glorfindel = no meta.so

so realistically, this'll probably be posted Monday at the absolute earliest. Metasmoke needs polishing before something like this.

9:59 PM

@Undo When you’ve got a chance, I think I’ve fixed the issues with hiding the search box.

Yep, saw it

@Undo it's certainly on-topic for MSO. At the very least, it's more on-topic than discussing presidential orders.

heh

@Undo what kinda polishing?

@ArtOfCode SE OAuth without a metasmoke login would be awesome

One-step auth

10:04 PM

@Undo that would be fancy

also, just checking to make sure the flow works

still need to create a User somehow, but we can do it based off the SE auto details

You could use OpenID for that. See openid.stackexchange.com

as in "works for people who didn't build the thing"

test-a aaaaaaaaaaaaaaaa

10:05 PM

@Mithrandir just plaintext

Okay, that works.

!!/test-a aaaaaaaaaaaaa

> Repeating characters in answer
----------
Post - Repeated character: *aaaaaaaaaaaaa*

@ArtOfCode that's what I was testing

!!/test foo foo foo foo foo foo foo foo foo foo foo foo foo foo foo

10:06 PM

> Few unique characters in body, repeating words in body, repeating words in title
----------
Title - Repeated word: *foo*
Post - Contains 3 unique characters
Post - Repeated word: *foo*

@ArtOfCode I know that that would be caught; it was the pre-formatted I wanted to test....

Smokey is very picky, it will only react on plain text. Any other flavour is out of the question.

Statistics section - total fps vs tps?

total is misleading

Or some varient thereof

10:15 PM

> Fact: If you wrote all our spam tests out vertically at point size 36, they'd be as tall as the One World Trade Center.

Trying to keep the stats focused on flagging rather than SD as a whole. What else could we have?

(from charcoal-se.org)

is that true?

Maybe we could have something like this for the deleted spam posts

yeah, sounds right

10:15 PM

@JF it's probably size 24 by now.

@Glorfindel How is that calculated?

IDK, but spam statistics here get outdated very quickly.

Oh, but this is about the spam tests.

I'd rather like to know what size the 45,000 TPs (and counting) are when printed out.

I’m doing some JS to calculate that now.

jsfiddle.net/#&togetherjs=Mpi83bPJEa if you’re interested.

Stats like that are good to include in the Meta post, too. Even to a public of developers, they make a better impression than just a number.

In moderation, yeah

10:20 PM

@Undo pun intended?

sure, why not

43k characters sound about right for all of the filters?

@JF sounds super low. What, exactly, are you calculating?

wc -m findspam.py

fp- by Glorfindel

10:22 PM

oh

@SmokeDetector f

@ArtOfCode What do you get for that?

@JF no idea, I haven't run it

not on a Unix system at the moment

58471

@Undo Thanks

10:24 PM

Now, that includes some logic too, but it should be mostly spam filter

You should probably include the blacklist files as well.

yeah, and those

bad_keywords.txt

» wc -m findspam.py blacklisted_*.txt bad_*.txt
   58471 findspam.py
     246 blacklisted_usernames.txt
   15084 blacklisted_websites.txt
    4764 bad_keywords.txt
   78565 total

I’m adding those to the JSFiddle.

10:28 PM

Where's the age where programmers were proud of using less code to do more?

Oh, wait, they're all playing code golf.

20 point font! (well, really 19.707096035130146)

10:41 PM

> If printed on pieces of 8.5×11 paper, the filters would stack 0.11091529411764706 inches high.

Time to include the posts :)

[ SmokeDetector | MS ] Few unique characters in body: powershell invoke web request not working anymore by testme on stackoverflow.com (@dorukayhan)

mysql> select SUM(LENGTH(title)) + SUM(LENGTH(body)) from posts;
+----------------------------------------+
| SUM(LENGTH(title)) + SUM(LENGTH(body)) |
+----------------------------------------+
|                               46342199 |
+----------------------------------------+

@JF ^

you should be able to get some mileage out of that

@JF that's compressed, now allow for some air in between each sheet and it expands a bit

probably by 0.3

> If printed on pieces of 8.5×11 paper, the posts analyzed would stack 7′ 1.1″ high.

Heh

taller than me

10:45 PM

oh, posts analyzed would be much more

Metric, please

A4 sheets would be ideal

@JanDvorak 2.28m

Thanks. What's the paper thickness you used?

@JF?

0.0036in, 0.1mm

10:47 PM

Thanks.

That's an impressive stack of paper

[ SmokeDetector | MS ] Few unique characters in answer: Prove that if A – C = B – C and A∩C = B∩C then A = B by Bram28 on math.SE

fp- by J F

[ SmokeDetector | MS ] Link at end of answer: max-width 50% for td by cn arabic on stackoverflow.com (@dorukayhan)

tpu- by J F

or is that NAA?

Hard to tell. "apologies, I forgot..." would indicate a self-answer, but this isn't one.

Stolen self-answer and translated through Google?

@Undo from past experience MSO is a bit meaner than MSE, so maybe MSE would be a better choice. Also, only power users from non-so sites read MSO, so more people would see it on MSE

I setup Pref and Conditions

10:56 PM

@angussidney I'm not sure more people is true, actually. I'm pretty sure MSO gets more traffic, including people from other sites.

@CaffeineAddiction there's a box you need to tick in your preferences

@ArtOfCode I see a clickable "you can do that here"

and a permission you need to have that you don't

oh, I dont have permission

ok

you're eligible for that permission when you hit 50 valid feedbacks

ok

10:57 PM

which ain't a lot, really - one day of spam-fighting could get that many

dumb question ... say it gets all setup

and I decide to remove my api key

... is there an option for that?

@CaffeineAddiction what do you mean by remove your API key? You can turn flagging off for your account, yes. If you want to purge your OAuth access token from the MS database, there's no self-serve option to do that, but you can ping Undo.

@ArtOfCode just curious ... you know ... since you are releasing this all to the masses

@CaffeineAddiction aye, it might be a good idea. That said, there's a pretty obvious disclaimer there when you give us a write token in the first place.

true enough

11:02 PM

@Undo you might want to make this suggest-only and this viewable if there’s nothing mod/admin-only in it.

@JF done

@angussidney pssh. You just have to present the post to MSO correctly.

Was there ever an RFC #2?