Discussion about suggestion of ICM talk focusing on making math more diverse, inclusive, and equitable

@user347489 Regarding (3), it was rhetorical. I wasn't seriously expecting a defense of no-standards hiring

I have to admit I'm sitting here slackjawed that you've done it!

Regarding (2), we're still discussing to what extent there is a local problem in math and what is in the ambit of politics of the wider society. If we want to fix a problem, we need to identify it and then figure out how to identify when it's fixed.

user347489

@HarryGindi lol. I wrote this just before heading to bed because it's super late here. I wasn't expecting such quick responses. I'll come back tomorrow to continue the conversation.

Regarding (1), we'll see!

I'm waiting for the MPIM event to start

so I'm just floating around the internet for the next hour =p

user347489

@HarryGindi haha, enjoy the conference!

have a good rest!

AngelTC

1:42 PM

i genuinely dont know how your comment on 3) was absolutely rethorical when this is a point youve implied before, I understand you were exaggerating but its still within what you seem to think is in play one way or another.

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3:39 PM

@AngelTC I meant that the collection of people who are genuinely terrible at math (at least half of the population) is underrepresented among mathematicians.

And my point was that if you start taking all of these different demographics (people who are bad at math, people who hate math, etc) and demanding representation for them, you end up in a silly situation.

5:18 PM

@HarryGindi In what sense do you see user347489's comment as a defense of no-standards hiring?

«What do you mean by "bad"? Number of publications, previous positions, talent, etc? All of these metrics are biased one way or another and don't take into account the circumstances that may have led a certain individual to underperform on any of them. In the end it's about giving talented people in unprivileged situations the opportunities that other more individuals have always had.»

Are hiring committees going to start looking deeply into the backgrounds of people to find out their personal struggles?

What if the best candidate had an easy childhood?

What's "best"?

Will we begin to have contests over who was the biggest victim?

Best from the perspective of a blind hire

But there's not a linear ordering on job candidates.

I know that a fully identity-blind hire is often not possible

I mean, ultimately they pick a best candidate

I think the fairest way to do that is to be as blind to the candidate's identity as possible

5:30 PM

But that assumes that the candidate's identity has no impact on their role in academia, especially as regards teaching and mentorship.

It ought not to

Yes, it would be more convenient if people of talent were interchangeable so far as their impact was concerned.

I don't see any reason to believe that this isn't the case.

Here is a reason to believe that isn't the case: we ask students and graduate students and postdoctoral scholars and others, and they tell us that role models or lack thereof have had a significant impact on their path through academia.

There's absolutely no reason to simply operate from first principles here. We study the impact that mentors and their identity actually has, as opposed to what we would like to believe.

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You can manipulate something that vague to say whatever answer you want, I think.

5:36 PM

This is just the thing. "Underrepresentation" by itself is a symptom, as quid commented earlier. We don't have to regard it as a problem by itself; it does serve as a signal that we should find out if students are encountering barriers, and if it's within our power to make change that improves things.

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Improving our approach to mentorship is important, isn't it?

I don't know what that means. Are you saying that we should do more than be available to our students and encourage them and maybe do research with them or suggest it?

What often happens is that a moderate position that everyone agrees with is stated in debate, but in practice, an extreme solution is offered.

OK, so if we e.g. hear from students that letters of reference for female students are typically written in gendered language that places less focus on their research than comparable letters for male students, we can make efforts to avoid these kinds of tendencies when writing.

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Absolutely.

I'm willing to go way beyond that. I view unequal treatment of students as actual misconduct.

Well, I think that's part of the reason that this conversation is very frustrating to read. People are not advocating for extreme positions, but the extreme positions are the ones that you're arguing against.

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Because the slope here really is slippery, I'm sad to report.

On the UC diversity statement rubric, the sentiment that students must be treated equally gets a 0 or 1 out of 5.

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Reference: ofew.berkeley.edu/sites/default/files/…

5:45 PM

The idea that unequal treatment is unfair is a noble one, but in practice it's very difficult to find the "edges" of that. It's clear that we shouldn't write better letters of reference for men than for women, but it's also equally clear that spending extra time helping a student who is struggling with material does not count.

Actually in the UK, spending extra time helping a student who is struggling is discouraged

Even in the context of office hours?

I was surprised to hear this, but we were specifically encouraged not to do so

I didn't have office hours for the classes I taught, but I was told that it's an equity issue

There are other resources we were told to direct them toward.

All right.

I don't know if that's true for faculty, but this was explicit for graduate student tutors (more or less TAs or GSIs)

5:56 PM

I was just thinking how beautiful it would be if this discussion featured people telling their own stories about overcoming adversity and succeeding in mathematics despite various social obstacles.

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Clark Barwick

6:12 PM

Hey Harry, do me a favour and let me know non-publicly who told you that. This is not a policy, and I have no idea how that message got sent.

6:24 PM

Yeah, sent in private.

I was kinda shocked to hear it at the time.

@HarryGindi - I believe that you have never been part of a hiring/admissions committee, advised a student or build a math department. There are people who are more experienced than me who would surely agree that all these processes are not just about math, go beyond math and are doable without compromising on "quality" (whatever that means) and do not necessarily go down a slippery slope. These decisions are not taken by a dictator; for better or worse it is an entire body of people with different views, stakes and perspective. And, most of the time, they are willing to hear reason. Of cour…

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@EldenElmanto I don't know if you're aware, but according to Abby Thompson's article, these decisions are now being taken out of the hands of the faculty, at least in the UC system.

There were further news articles about it in the mainstream press.

I'm also far from the only person concerned about it: ams.org/journals/notices/202001/rnoti-o1.pdf

That's not my point - it's just an example. I think at the beginning of this thread, you raised some points which could be discussed. I am now just puzzled why you are trying to push everyone's buttons - especially colleagues and peers who you will encounter during your mathematical life.

Yes, the usage of different statements in the UC system has been contentious. That's one example and it's a whole separate discussion. But there is more to what Elden is saying than that.

I'm concerned that this is coming hard and fast everywhere and should be resisted early before it can take root.

6:39 PM

*diversity. Ugh

6:49 PM

I'm at a bit of a loss to respond. Is "this" that you're referring to the usage and scoring of diversity statements in hiring, as mandated by university administration?

Or a more broad class of social change?

I'd like to share a personal experience. I feel I've been privileged in almost every way possible throughout my life -- educationally, economically, demographically. I think my biggest struggle thus far on the long road to becoming a mathematician has been my mental health, in the form of anxiety and ADHD. This has been a contributing factor to multiple times where I've needed second and third chances to continue forward.

At one point I got a regular job and almost gave up on becoming a mathematician -- for awhile, the internet was my only mathematical outlet. At every step, I've been very lucky to find that one mathematician willing to support me.

I hate to bring up my own experience since it will just be anecdotal but I, for one, have benefited tremendously from mentorship. I am the only pure mathematician I know from Indonesia (I recently found out that Karim Adiprasito is of half-Indonesian descent, which is exciting!) and I remember, when I was younger, trying to find some sort of mentorship/advice/precedent from someone from my area of the world about pursuing a career in mathematics.

While I feel like I have now easily "camouflaged" into my corner of mathematics, I recall being uncomfortable, if not, "out of the water" around …

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@TylerLawson What I'm afraid of is corporatized-HR-style interference in the discipline and reliance on junk science in order to push an agenda that will hurt the enterprise of mathematics in America.

@EldenElmanto Thanks for sharing!

I don't care about what happens outside of mathematics. I'm not interested in politics.

Niall Taggart

6:57 PM

@HarryGindi I don't overly want to get involved but as someone who has spent 7 years studying in the UK, the statement that "spending extra time helping a student who is struggling is discouraged" is not true, in general. It may be the case for Harry's particular situation, but I think people should be careful with how sweeping their statements on this public forum are.

Yeah, Clark said that's not even true here.

The guy who did our orientation for tutoring seems to have been mistaken.

I'll say in the nicest possible way.

Since as far as I know, none of us are experts in the rigorous science of these questions, maybe sharing personal experiences is a more valuable type of conversation to have here.

Scott Balchin

Like many people, I have been viewing this from the sidelines, but being silent is part of the problem so here in my two cents.

Let me use the analogy of climate change for a minute. There are many people who furiously deny that climate change is a problem, and as such are fervently against any initiatives to switch to clean energy, reduce fossil fuel consumption or find ways to reuse and recycle what we already have. Let us say for arguments sake that climate change is one big conspiracy orchestrated by some ill-boding person, is it really a bad thing for human's to clean up their act and…

Adeel Khan and Andrea Gagna reached out to me when I was out of mathematics for a while, and it was really nice of them to do so, and I am really grateful for it. But I don't see how this is relevant to what we're discussing.

Harry, I'm tired of the discussion you're having. I want to have a different one.

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7:01 PM

@ScottBalchin I got banned from an 'inclusive place' just recently for giving an opinion on a book that I didn't like in a civil way.

This inclusivity thing is not real. It's another kind of exclusion of the 'wrong type of people'

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Thanks for sharing, Harry.

Thanks for the condescension. I don't know what I've done to deserve it.

I think the idea of "progress in mathematics" which is independent of its people is really an illusion. There are a gazillion variables involved even within mathematics that affects a subject's progress.

For example one metric of how a subject progresses is how widely it impacts neighboring subjects. This is, as you should know better than most, is not linear and is not brought about by hiring/promoting people who are "conventionally the best of the lot" or whatever coarse metric one uses. I think that's one "within mathematics" argument for making it a place where everyone is comfortable …

Harry, let me say one thing. I so often see this argument framed as asking us to lower our research standards in favor of diversity. But the truth of the matter, as I see it, is that the job market each year includes so many unbelievably good mathematicians. Instead I see it as the standard for teaching and mentoring rising, and part of being an effective mentor is understanding the barriers that those who are not like us have to get past.

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@HarryGindi That was meant sincerely.

7:04 PM

This isn't political; it's literally a component of making us more effective in one of academia's primary missions

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Oh, sorry, I take it back.

@TylerLawson What someone writes on a diversity statement does not indicate how that person will mentor students. It will be gamed.

And the people who will lose out will be outsiders, exactly the people who you'd like to bring in.

If I may also be frank. Obviously it is scary being a junior mathematician - like a graduate student or a postdoc and see that one's place might go to someone else's because of "diversity reasons." But this fear is truly a function of the idea that leaving academia is "selling out" and is hence equivalent to or worse than death. This is such an absurd perspective if you think about it for a moment and is really an artifice of how math is viewed as a "competition" when it is not.

You can't seriously believe that, Elden.

I do.

Well, I don't care about 'selling out'. I care about doing mathematics. Maybe it's transactional for you but it isn't for me.

7:17 PM

If by "transactional" you mean the belief that mathematics exists within a community then sure.

No, transactional in the sense that it's a job for you and you wouldn't mind doing some other job instead.

The idea that the academic job market isn't a competition is a cruel joke.

Well, firstly, academia is not the only way you can contribute to mathematics. If you truly do care then this idea of "competition" should be a non-issue to begin with. Secondly, there are other ways to contribute to mathematics than just being "professor at XX major research university"; if you truly do care then you should not be worried.

If you really feel that way, you should withdraw from the academic job market. Nothing personal.

Dylan Wilson

This thread has displayed such overt white supremacist, patriarchal culture it is incredibly disheartening to read.

People proposing assimilationist and even segregationist racist and sexist viewpoints and talking points; people not understanding the difference between systemic oppression and individual prejudice; people trying to have an 'intellectual debate' about oppression, as if it's not a horrifying, daily, literally *life-threatening* attack on those with marginalized parts of their identities; people pretending that the institution of mathematics is somehow immune from the systemic…

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I have never been racist or sexist in my life. I have a clean conscience.

Dylan Wilson

7:26 PM

nytimes.com/2018/01/13/opinion/sunday/…

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I'm sorry, but Ibram Kendi is a fraud.

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As is Robin DiAngelo, and it will all come out sooner or later.

At any rate, this is the kind of extremist position that I'm afraid of. Thanks for expressing it, Dylan.

user44191

@HarryGindi ...I don't think that a strong naked assertion like this is helpful

@HarryGindi And this one is worse, with its implication of "I don't have to provide support now, I'll be vindicated later"

It's hardly a naked assertion. Robin DiAngelo and Ibram Kendi are academic frauds pushing division to make money. It's nauseating.

I second @DylanWilson and wow @HarryGindi. Anyway I think I am quite done with this thread and would like to, as an earlier post suggests, go back to my so-called "sancutary" (which is, btw, a huge privilege).

@user44191 There's nothing I can say to disprove a faith-based doctrine.

user44191

7:34 PM

But there are things you can say to prove "X is a fraud".

I could say other things, but I decided to say what I believe to be true. It was insinuated that I am a racist and a sexist and a white supremacist, not a single one of which is the least bit true.

I'm not going to get roped into an uncollegial shouting match with wild assertions.

user44191

Unfortunately, I think you already have been.

I've been shouted at, but I haven't shouted back. It takes two sides shouting to have a shouting match.

Okay everyone. Long ago, this chatroom devolved into a discussion of Harry Gindi's political beliefs. I think it's outlived its usefulness. Trying to continue the discussion here is like trying to talk about homotopy type theory on the Foundations of Math mailing list where you will inevitably be drawn into having to convince Harvey Friedman that there's a point to the whole thing. My suggestion would be that it's time to shut down the room.

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I'm sorry for playing a role in this. Take care, all.

7:48 PM

Same. Peace.

Clark Barwick

It wasn't a discussion of Harry's beliefs alone. At least, not for me. There are a few people here (many anonymous) who have expressed views that I find far more difficult to imagine holding than Harry's. Harry is more pointed in his expression of a more moderate view. (That's not to say that I agree with Harry. I imagine it's obvious that Harry and I disagree on virtually everything under discussion.)

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One of my aims here was to try to explain why I think the kinds of arguments proposed are either (a) straw men, or (b) built on some premises that are either hidden or wrong or, most likely (in my estimation), both.