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12:00 AM
If you could take a look at that and shed some light, would be appreciated
@trogdor Cool, figured I'd ask, but no harm if it's not to hand
12:59 AM
Weird glitch... on DnDBeyond, I can read the new Wild Beyond The Witchlight adventure, but when I try to access the new races via the Races screen, it sends me to the Marketplace page to buy the book... I'm accessing through @NautArch 's campaign, so I don't know whether it should be available to me or not?
1:10 AM
Same here @Adeptus
1 hour later…
2:11 AM
Hmm, trying again, didn't quite see what you saw
@Adeptus @MikeQ the races bit opened for me OK, maybe try again.
Does this comment just not make sense to anybody else, in particular @ThomasMarkov ?
Q: Can I cast Counterspell on my own turn?

HimBromBeereI've read both the question Casting multiple spells in a single round and the question Is it possible to cast multiple spells per turn? about using multiple spells on my turn. I know there are plenty of question concerning counterspell and how it works on my own turn. From the example in Sage Adv...

4 hours later…
6:12 AM
@MikeQ I once had a recurring secondary antagonist whose whole gimmick was that he didn't really differentiate between mind control and necromancy because they were functionally the same for his purposes.
@Medix2 It's consistent with the rules. The Bonus Action Spellcasting rules say that if you cast a spell as a Bonus Action, then the only other spells you may cast in that turn are Cantrips that require an Action to cast. So any spell that requires a Reaction to cast (like Counterspell) cannot be used.
I'm not 100% sure why they wrote it, since I think it's just restating things said in the answer itself, but I believe their comment is correct.
6:27 AM
@KorvinStarmast yeah it works now
2 hours later…
8:29 AM
@Xirema yeah that checks out
1 hour later…
10:30 AM
@Xirema Yeah, I agree it is true, I have absolutely no idea why it was stated at all
10:41 AM
If a rule is changed in errata such that an answer to a previous question is now wrong. Should we delete those answers? If somebody deletes their own answer in such a case, should we undelete it?
The goal would be to have the correct answer on the Q, either updating or replacing is fine to that end, no?
@Someone_Evil Yeah, leave a comment to the author asking for an update, and if they don’t within a reasonable time, do it for them.
Or if they’re inactive, just do it.
I know I’d prefer to be notified so I could update it myself.
If I ever go inactive I appoint Medix and NauArch as joint executors of my estate.
Right, but when it's deleted it seems... odd? Like the votes from the past are undone in one action
11:27 AM
Today might be the day I give up at understanding spell targets in 5e XD
12:01 PM
@ThomasMarkov I can't wait for the Markov Society to transfer small stipends to independent scholar's that follow the estate's ideals.
@Medix2 uhhhhhh no idea.
Is there an example here?
War Caster is the only iffy component in that question.
The whole focus on RAI feels like a wild-goose chase.
@Akixkisu what question are we talking aboot
Then it gets semantically complicated because one can reasoable say that "spell at" and "target only that creature" can be read independently - if spell at goes from spell origin to direction and "only that creature" means self.
A: Do Booming Blade and the Spell Sniper feat stack?

Medix2The rules are a mess, leaving room to argue either way You might be able to double the range of booming blade with Spell Sniper The booming blade spell has a range of Self (5-foot radius), and it is unclear whether this means it becomes a 10-foot radius with Spell Sniper. We do know the intended ...

I'm quite confident that "self(X)" still targets yourself.
12:10 PM
The argument would be that you target yourself.
JC can eat my shirt.
But that you are the origin of that spell, that then you direct at the creature.
I think that is a reasonable reading that would enable War Caster.
For all other applications in that q, the answer seems straightforward.
12:26 PM
I spent too long on this, but I was definitely inspired to because of the discussion around the timezone question I asked.
@ThomasMarkov I agree
all spells that include targetting need to be re-written
@AncientSwordRage how so?
Targetting is fine in most cases.
@Akixkisu to make it explicit what is being targetted
I'm not saying they don't work with common sense, but targetting seems to be a sticking point for multiple questions
@AncientSwordRage most spells do that, but the handful of spells that don't do it explicitly can use some serious errata.
Arguments like "The booming blade spell has a range of Self (5-foot radius), and it is unclear whether this means it becomes a 10-foot radius with Spell Sniper." fail to showcase what about that might be unclear.
@Akixkisu I'd say most spells don't need to...? Not that they do
Especially in the context of the latter cited rule "Spells that create cones or lines of effect that originate from you also have a range of self, indicating that the origin point of the spell's effect must be you."
12:38 PM
I also talking about things like this:
Q: Are undead and creatures immune to charm excluded from the HP count of Sleep?

MindwinFrom the spell description: Sleep (...) Creatures within 20 feet of a point you choose within range are affected in ascending order of their current hit points (ignoring unconscious creatures). Starting with the creature that has the lowest current hit points,(...) Subtract each creature’s hi...

But also if you have an ability that says, (I don't have the exact wording): "You are immune to poison effects that target you" you get immunity from direct targetting, but not AoE.
@AncientSwordRage yup, I'd be much easier if they were explicit.
AoE's don't target, but they do affect creatures in the area as though they were targetted
@AncientSwordRage that doesn't say that "only target" you, so I see no reason why aoe wouldn't affect you.
@Akixkisu the hypothetical ability says "that target you"
AoEs don't target strictly speaking
common sense says you should still be immune as though targeted
@AncientSwordRage yes they do, they cover an area of affect targetting all valid things within it.
Sometimes that means objects are valid targets, sometimes that means creatures, sometimes both.
The whole area of affect section in PHB chapter 10 makes that explicit.
12:46 PM
@Akixkisu I'm not seeing any mention of it here: dndbeyond.com/sources/phb/spellcasting#AreasofEffect
In some contexts, we talk about different kinds of targetting that we shouldn't falsely equivalate.
@AncientSwordRage AoEs do target.
A: What spell targets count for the Graviturgy Magic wizard's Gravity Well feature?

Thomas MarkovVictims of AoE spells are referred to as targets. This isn't easy to find, but there is a rule in the PHB which specifically uses "target" to refer to someone affected by an AoE spell, in the section "Targeting Yourself" (emphasis mine): If you are in the area of effect of a spell you cast, you ...

@ThomasMarkov oh wow, I must have misread/misremembered something
There's just too many instances of the word "target" referring to creatures affected by AoE spells to conclude that AoEs don't target.
Although reading the question it look like the conclusion that AoEs do target is something we need figure out from those disparate rules and spell descriptions
@ThomasMarkov fair
12:50 PM
@AncientSwordRage Yeah. It's not spelled out nicely in one place.
As one would like.
"cover an area, allowing them to affect" I think needs a very iffy reading if that would exclude affect to mean target.
The support that Thomas shows is really good at clearing that up, I think.
We have different kinds of targeting here, the point of origin and the affected creatures.
Until recently the last edition I had played was 4e, and between then and now I've gotten into MtG (which has REEMS of rules, some of which covered targeting).... I'm definitely not in the right head space to be reading 5e rules in the way they seem to have been intended to be read
for instance, I took this bit
> A spell's description tells you whether the spell targets creatures, objects, or a point of origin for an area of effect (described below).
To mean those were the only targets of the spell
@AncientSwordRage To my knowledge, almost none of the spell descriptions actually do this.
@ThomasMarkov ( :
@ThomasMarkov contrast to MtG where a creature might have hexproof (opponents can't target it) or shroud (nobody may target it), so a spell that says "Target creature .... stuff" doesn't affect it (in fact it's 'illegal' to try and target it). But you also have some spells that do not mention targeting, where it is always correct to read as not targeting, e.g. "All creatures are destroyed" - that rules text DOES affect creatures with hexproof/shroud.
it's not wrong that D&D doesn't work the same way (for a given value of wrong) but it's definitely a blind spot of mine I should be more aware of
@AncientSwordRage I think that level of precision is far more necessary in a competitive cardgame.
Since 100 different rules arbiters should be expected to come up with the same ruling every time for fairness of play.
Which isn't a concern in RPGs.
1:07 PM
@ThomasMarkov I don't think burning hands and spherical explosions should target the caster?
@Medix2 they do if you find yourself in their areas of effect.
@AncientSwordRage Plenty of people argue they don't target
@Medix2 If I cast fireball on the ground directly below me, it seems quite natural that I would get hurt.
@AncientSwordRage Judging in mtg serves a different purpose than adjudicating in dnd :)
I think recalling that helps at gaining perspective :)
@ThomasMarkov agreed
1:12 PM
Q: Does a Morkoth's Spell Reflection work against AOE spells like Fireball?

Contented Yet CuriousThe Morkoth (Volo's Guide to Monsters page 177-178) has a reaction called "Spell Reflection." Spell Reflection. If the morkoth makes a successful saving throw against a spell, or a spell attack misses it, the morkoth can choose another creature (including the spellcaster) it can see within 120 f...

"What purpose do the rules serve?"
@ThomasMarkov yeeeessss, but that's a side effect of the target being so close to you?
@Akixkisu agreed
@ThomasMarkov And that doesn't mean you are targeted
@Akixkisu it's less perspective on what should be, but remembering to switch my mind set
@Medix2 The description of fireball says I'm a target.
1:13 PM
Like sheesh, I'm just trying to say that there are people who I respect who have written answers arguing the things I'm saying now
@ThomasMarkov Read the Morkoth thing
I'll write an answer there.
Even in MtG a level one and two Judge have different aims - it is quite interesting.
@Akixkisu Everything? The idea of doubling a range called "Self (5-foot radius)" using natural language is inherently impossible? I can think of no compelling reason to assume it works or doesn't work
That said... I can probably just go "it should double it because I think it should"
@ThomasMarkov I'm looking forward to reading it
@Medix2 yup
@AncientSwordRage you just read it on that gravity well question haha
1:18 PM
@ThomasMarkov ahhhh I forgot what that said...
It's certainly unfortunate that, as far as I can tell, the baletrips are the only self (area) spells that involve attack rolls
Right, but having to reference 4 different parts of the rules and the spells text as to whether it has a definite or indefinite article is used, doesn't feel conclusive to me...
Finally found a question to help me say Spell Sniper definitely extends the range of booming blade
@Medix2 baletrips?
At the very least we can all agree it's not 100% spelled out in the rules in a completely consistent manner...?
@AncientSwordRage With how some people think the answers are clear... I don't know that that's the case
1:23 PM
@Medix2 so you're saying it's unclear if it's clear, but to some it's clear that some think it's not unclear?
@AncientSwordRage You can't hear it, but i'm laughing out loud.
@NautArch glad to make you laugh...?
Oh whoops, I missed the not in that sentence.
@NautArch no worries :D
@AncientSwordRage bladetrips (booming blade and green-flame blade)
1:26 PM
@ThomasMarkov I'm still upvoting medix's answer for this line: It is woefully unclear whether an area of effect spell targets the creatures in its area of effect
@Medix2 ah gotcha
Yeah I might just give up on answering questions of this sort; they are a mess and I've gotten to the point where the predictable and constant comments under my answers cause me undue stress and irritation
@AncientSwordRage I'm not sure "woefully unclear" is a great description when "target" is used to refer to creatures in AoEs on at least ten occasions.
To me it is woefully unclear how one could support the assertion that the rules were wrong in all ten of those cases.
@ThomasMarkov I mean this is DnD 5e...
@ThomasMarkov Right but the number of people asserting that is what gives me pause
rpg.stackexchange.com/a/170597/2788 has some good arguments
> "But fireball says 'a target takes 8d6 damage'"...
> Yes, but it's wrong. Those aren't targets. These are targets:
1:29 PM
I'm not sure how I'd actually run it.
@NautArch Yeah, the other thing is that no matter how much I go "I like it working this way" there ends up being a spell that I just don't run that way :(
@AncientSwordRage It just assumes its conclusion and then says that places where "target" is used are wrong.
It's not actually a supported assertion.
@Medix2 Even inconsistent wording leads to reasonable confident answers in many cases, and then we also have many with lots of room for different readings. I don't see how a conclusion like that works.
But an opportunity to turn a fireball back on the players? Yeah, I'll probably take that .
The "these are targets" section does not exclude areas of effect.
It just states some things that count as targets.
1:30 PM
@ThomasMarkov It says they aren't chosen though, no?
@Medix2 You have the context of the range rules, so a lot that goes into that doesn't require either or, but applying both language and context.
> Note that the caster picks "one or more targets". For fireball (and area-damage spells generally), you don't pick the specific creatures; you pick the point of origin.
@Medix2 And? That still doesn't exclude aoes from targeting.
But it does? It's saying that targets are only things the caster chooses and they don't choose things in an AOE?
@Medix2 thats also my reading
1:32 PM
It doesn't even say "all spells..." It says "A typical spell", indicating that there are spells which don't do what is said.
@Medix2 I don't understand what youre saying here.
Also this sentence supports AOEs not targeting things inside them: " Immediately after a creature casts a spell that targets you or includes you in its area of effect"
@ThomasMarkov I think the argument is that targets have to be explicitly chosen (not side effects of being in an area).
@AncientSwordRage Yeah, I understand that is the conclusion, but I just don't see how the rule actually says that.
That answer gives at least three reasons AOEs don't target things?
So it's a target, but not a chosen target.
1:34 PM
@Medix2 I don't see any reasons there why AoEs dont target things.
@ThomasMarkov "For fireball ... you don't pick the specific creatures" The previous sentence says targets are picked, ergo if it's not picked it's not a target?
I see a reason that certain things are called targets, and then an unsupported assumption that nothing else counts as a target.
The argument is that only and only the game term of defined targets instead of targets as recipients or otherwise included in natural language applies?
@ThomasMarkov spells only do what they say they do, and 5e uses common english words unless that word is also a game term
@AncientSwordRage "Targets are picked" does not imply that "not picked means not a target".
1:35 PM
1. Spell require you to *pick* the targets, which you don't do with AOEs
2. The rules explicitly state that AOEs target their point of origin (not great evidence but eh)
3. Spell targets must be in the spell range, and AOE "targets" do *not* need to be in the spell's range
@ThomasMarkov in formal logic that is correct
@AncientSwordRage In that case, fireball targets, since fireball explicitly says that it targets.
@ThomasMarkov "Targets must be picked" does though: Something cannot be a target unless it is picked
@Medix2 (1) is incorrect.
Sorry you didn't pick the rat in the corner as a target of fioreball?
1:36 PM
target is a game term that means picked by the caster, target cannot be used as a common english word, therefore target cannot mean anything else other than picked by the caster
So the rat in the corner is unaffected by fireball.
@Medix2 Right, but the rules simply do not support "targets must be chosen".
Idk, seems like that breaks the game in an absurd manner that I rather not think about.
I think you're interpretting it differently @Akixkisu
Reminds me of an AL game where one player argued that only objects listed in the books exist in the world.
1:38 PM
@Akixkisu spells can affect things other than their targets
@ThomasMarkov I mean, fair, if you don't think "A typical spell requires you to pick one or more targets to be affected by the spell's magic." implies that then it simple doesn't
@Medix2 (1) should actually read something like "Some spells require you to pick the targets"
@ThomasMarkov I guess the (unwritten) compliment to that is "Other spells pick your targets for you by some other means"
I definitely think the best evidence supporting their idea (which I don't agree with) is this "The target of a spell must be within the spell's range. [...] For a spell like fireball, the target is the point in space where the ball of fire erupts."
@Medix2 I think I offered two interpretations of which one is clearly absurd and the other is less clearly absurd.
1:41 PM
And this "Immediately after a creature casts a spell that targets you or includes you in its area of effect" since it's identical to "Immediately after a creature casts a spell that targets you" if we assume AOEs target
Both however are so absurd that they break the game if you follow their logic.
3 mins ago, by AncientSwordRage
@Akixkisu spells can affect things other than their targets
@Medix2 That quote is still logically consistent with "AoEs target".
@ThomasMarkov does my previous reply to you make sense?
@ThomasMarkov Right it's just redundant
1:43 PM
@Medix2 There's are lots of redundancies in the rules.
@AncientSwordRage Yup, but that is also not an exclusive argument.
@AncientSwordRage Yeah basically.
@ThomasMarkov I would 100% support that interpretation, more so if it was explicit
my whole point, regardless of how it's read is that none of this is explicitly written down
@AncientSwordRage AoEs having targets is explicitly written down though. At least ten times.
And the argument from that other answer is just "all those times are just wrong"
A lot of it is explicitly written down, but you always have to contextualise all of it all the time.
It is not in a neat germ term box.
Where you look at the box and that is it.
1:45 PM
55 mins ago, by Thomas Markov
@AncientSwordRage Yeah. It's not spelled out nicely in one place.
@ThomasMarkov I mean D&D has been wrong before
I still stand by this:
1 hour ago, by AncientSwordRage
all spells that include targetting need to be re-written
If the sheer number of talks and tweets Crawford has given about spell targeting indicates anything for me, it's that these rules are not clear
@Medix2 Or perhaps the sheer number of tweets Crawford has given out is exactly the reason so many people are confused about it.
@ThomasMarkov Actually no, this is one of the exceedingly rare things where he has been exceptionally consistent
@Medix2 With himself or with the rules?
Of course himself
1:50 PM
@Medix2 but because he's normally inconsistent, being consistent on one thing is even more inconsistent...!
@Medix2 taps sign
2 hours ago, by Thomas Markov
JC can eat my shirt.
the sign is now at a 45 degree angle
how much mana does it produce?
@AncientSwordRage Even MtG is and has to be contextual. Part of my event-judging-preparation was analysing likely decks to compile a list for their cases to judge.
Rewritting all of them is unlikely to change anything about that.
But some need serious errata.
@ThomasMarkov what do you think his shirts taste of?
@AncientSwordRage mayonnaise.
1:53 PM
@AncientSwordRage The blood of freelance authors.
@NautArch that would be an unusual flavour for an unadultered shuirt
@AncientSwordRage The shirt is actually an alchemy jug.
@NautArch oh no...
Q: Why is mayo in the alchemy jug?

BlueMoon93The 5e Alchemy Jug (on page 150 of the Dungeon Master's Guide) has several uses. Some are common and useful, like water, poison, acid. Some are natural ingredients and liquids, like honey, vinegar, oil. Some are alcoholic beverages, like wine or beer. And then there's Mayonnaise. It is a complex...

separately, would you say the table of times in each town constitute a timezone?
Since I sent the pigeon, one assumes I know when my own local dawn is, or that I can consult my ephemeris (Chapter 3: Table of dawn/dusk) sitting on my shop counter. It doesn't matter what time shipper thinks it is in their town as long as they have an ephemeris (Chapter 1: Table of time in each town), too. A moment with the ephemeris will tell them that shop-dawn is at 05:22 shop time, which is 07:34 shipper time, and they will reserve a Wizard accordingly. — user535733 15 mins ago
@AncientSwordRage why would they need to formalise the time?
dusk/dawn does the job.
local dusk/dawn other local dusk/dawn
@Akixkisu did you read the whole question?
2:03 PM
@Akixkisu dawn here is not the same time as dawn there
It is an interesting subject, and with caveats I agree mostly with dale's answer.
@Akixkisu ( apologies for the bluntness of the last message )
I really don't feel like I have the energy to read this answer, is it okay?
But dawn here and dawn here are always dawn.
@AncientSwordRage I like clear communication :)
2:05 PM
@Akixkisu dale?
can you use the spell dawn to recharge magic items that recharge at dawn?
So thanks for asking a straightforward question.
@AncientSwordRage the answer on your timezones questions that you q&aed
@Akixkisu but if I instantly teleport at my dawn, and I am 5 hours ahead of you, I will be 5 hours early if I intend to arrive at destination-dawn
@AncientSwordRage A Wizard is always on time.
@ThomasMarkov I homebrewed a spell for 3.5e that was basically Mirage Arcana but celestial
@NautArch this is why they need to know about timezones, damnit :D
2:06 PM
@AncientSwordRage yes, but as a spellcaster with access to teleportation that is of no concern to you.
Likewise the local shop only deals in local shop time unless the owner has to telepathically answer whether it is dawn/dusk close to either
@Akixkisu What if you're 5 hours behind then? Or is the overall answer just that timezones don't matter as wizards are definitionally always on time
@Akixkisu It was just odd you brought up that question/answer and not the one the comment was on
@AncientSwordRage the latter, wizards will not bring about timezones.
But some of their spells might due to the change in transportation.
So if you have intact teleportation circles that more than a few people have access to - then there is lots of room.
But modern time/travel are less than a hundred years old.
To a degree modern time/travel started about 200 years ago.
And the travel/time that we have before that are entirely alien to most people.
@Akixkisu feel free to leave a comment on the question if I haven't made it clear enough that I've tried to consider that
@AncientSwordRage I think those are two different arguments, your answer is fine :)
Your worldbuilding one has too many parameters for me to consider, I'm simply too lazy for it.
@Akixkisu I've only been talking about my worldbuilding question
@Akixkisu that's understandble
I did add this caveat
> (Note, although typically "a wizard is never late, nor is he early, he arrives precisely when he means to.", this is not the case for the wizards on this world unless they correctly understand time differences between their origin and destination.)
2:17 PM
@AncientSwordRage Or it's that it doesn't matter 'when' is besides 'when the wizard arrives.' It doesn't matter when that is, it is just the time when he means to arrive.
@NautArch you have more faith in wizards than I
@AncientSwordRage It's not faith - it's hubris. :D
@NautArch "I don't care if it's dawn where you are, don't you dare wake me up in the middle of the night saying you have a shipment ready for me to sign!"
@NautArch pride before a fall caused by teleporting off course?
@AncientSwordRage Yeah, I think that is a tool and a thing that you want to achieve - that is what I gathered. I had a campaign that was about an ambitious empire with roads and teleportation circles, and stagecoaches. Some of it wasn't consistent with how I think that they would work out, but I could make them appear to be internally consistent :)
(also taxes, guilds, and regulations)
A lot of that comes down to hacking it.
Identifying what you want to fiddle with and then working around how to present it to the players.
Plotholes are fine if they don't matter when the narrative delivers so much distraction that only latter you think about them.
Isn't Medix's question a duplicate of this question?
2:29 PM
@AncientSwordRage or to add to that - if you want to have timezones, then they don't need to make sense as long as you make them an enjoyable part of the storytelling. (I also broadly agree with the answer that you received there - none of the things that you list bring about timezones - except I think that it doesn't matter if you want to use them)
@Akixkisu counter - I find things making internally making sense more enjoyable as part of the story telling.
@Akixkisu yeah but I don't see how it's different to IRL?
do trains need timezones? No, but they make things more easier for people
@AncientSwordRage Please no, "two trains traveling toward one another" questions are already complicated enough.
@AncientSwordRage I would simply create wizards that want timezones for some of the reasons that you list there (mostly convenience) and enforce them because they are powerful and then tell a story about that, but I don't think that is what you want to do, but maybe I'm assuming wrong.
But then timzones would be something like dusk/dawn time.
Whatever matters to the wizards who would choose to enforce that.
@ThomasMarkov Two wizards are teleporting to the same teleportation circle. Wizard A visits every 13 hours and Wizard B visits every 10 hours. After how many hours do they telefrag each other?
@Akixkisu I guess I'm asking "What would the wizards choose, if they act rationally?"
@AncientSwordRage to have no timezones.
2:40 PM
@Akixkisu any particular reason?
@AncientSwordRage the ones I listed before - the timezones don't matter to them.
dusk/dawn matters to them night/day matters to them.
(not telefragging matters to them)
But timezones don't do anything about these issues.
@Akixkisu I think I disagree with that?
If I want to be at place B by noon I have to start telporting at dusk matters to them.
Usually either the starting point ot the end point matters.
@Akixkisu yeah but thats only possible if you know how far after dusk here is noon time there
Unless you can construct something that would interfere with travel.
@AncientSwordRage at the point, and not in a zone.
And how precise do you need to be anyway?
Either so precise that time points are more important than timezones or so imprecise that you probably don't deal in exact time.
2:56 PM
I just came really close to asking a meta question then decided I could solve the problem by just changing a question title.
@ThomasMarkov the accepted answer to that is fun in the context of corpses.
3:14 PM
@AncientSwordRage You could make teleportation not instantaneous. I think that would be your best justification. Like a rift that picks up people along the way and only pops them out at other places of the linear rift - so once you commit to jumping into the rift, you can only exit at other rift stations.
If this gets closed in review I’m going to hammer reopen.
I reviewed the questions, and they were duped in title only.
Which I fixed the title of the older question.
@Akixkisu there should be a middle ground I'd imagine
@Akixkisu so the fact they need to rest between uses of teleportation means it's sort of not instantaneous?
3:29 PM
Do we have a stack for this kind of question?: We have 80 Samsung Tab S5e and 80 Ram Intelliskin cases made out of tempered glass with a c-type heading at the bottom of the case. The cases fit the tablets perfectly, but because of the way the case goes on and how tight a fit it is, the case pushes off the screen protectors. The screen protectors need to stay on during extended road travel. We tried liquid glass, which didn't work out at all - how do we resolve the issue?
@AncientSwordRage the issue there is still that the travel portion itself is instantaneous (which you can always hack).
@Akixkisu true
I'm imagining a series of wizards being swapped out like carriage horses now
@Akixkisu not sure to be honest
@AncientSwordRage do they have teleportation circles?
It gets even worse if they do.
@Akixkisu I realise now they'd need something akin to a bus/train timetable to know who is or isn't arrive at a circle at a given time
@AncientSwordRage say there are 40 villages within reach and then the wizards teleports to each circle in a point time based order, each of the villages has a small circle and then they get to a hub-circle...
I still don't see a way forward which necessitates timezones.
@Akixkisu say there's 10,000 wizards, and they all have errands and have to visit 10,000 places ~1000km apart....
I'm thinking globally
3:45 PM
@AncientSwordRage yeah all of those are timepoint based, no matter the scale.
What requires synchronisation of time on that scale when travel is basically instantaneous?
@Akixkisu Arrival times? Departure times?
What if two wizards want to meet at the same place at roughly the same time?
@AncientSwordRage they don't matter due to instantaneous travel, you always have a point to point time travel.
That is the hub-idea.
even then you localise to hub-time.
which only matter in the context of that point.
And then idenpendently extends to other points that connect to the hub.
"Arrive at 3pm"
"Wait, is that 3pm your time, my time or the destination time?"
"Destination time, it's when the Wizard bar opens at hub-city"
"When is that for me?"
"Look it up in your book of totally-not-timezone details, I'm 3 hours behind, you're three hours ahead"
"So I need to leave at 6pm local, and you leave at 12pm your time"
"That's right!"
At some point "book of totally-not-timezone details" becomes necessary
the question is asking, at what point do the logistics make it necessary?
4:02 PM
@AncientSwordRage I think you just need a standard point of reference, chronologically speaking. Currently, to sync between Buenos Aires and Beijing, I'd have to look up each city's time zone (and possibly that time zone's offset compared to GMT). Then I just do some addition to get the total time offset. In your world, you could have a book or annotated map with local solar noon for many locations as compared with that of, say, Candlekeep. You get mostly the same result.
You can also simplify some logistics by having two adjacent circles, one labeled "Candlekeep Incoming - please keep off" and the other "Candlekeep Outgoing - destination code 1A2B3C". At that point, you're relying on social mores to make gates one-way only.
Hub locations would just have several pairs of those one-way gates.
@JoelHarmon I think it's a logical conclusion from 'Candlekeep time' to saying, well that covers the region (or y'know zone) around candlekeep as well.
If you want extra security, then have your wizards learn sending as well, and pay some guards to sit there and make sure all landing zones are clear.
with too few wizards there's no need to produce those books of local time etc.
because a spell failing as the teleportation circle is still in use is unlikely
Another way around all this is to have Circles also have a cooldown, where the spell will just fail if it's been used too recently.
4:25 PM
Do pocketwatches exist in the Forgotten Realms? If so then that implies some standardized time. And if the plane is a planet, and if mages can send magic instant messages, then they'd need some system to synchronize times across long distances.
Q: Do pocket watches exist, and how much do they cost in D&D in the worlds of classic fantasy?

ben-benDo pocket watches exist, how much do they cost and how much do they weigh in D&D in the worlds of classic fantasy such as Faerûn, Dragonlance(Krynn), or Greyhawk? I am interested in the "in-universe" ability to track time up to a minute. I have found the following comment of Ed Greenwood on sagea...

@MikeQ that's a good point
you don't want to cast sending when somebody is asleep
It doesn't seem like they exist.
> Attempting to teleport to a destination, and have not gone off-course, not in a solid object but without enough room at the destination fails. i.e. if somebody puts a crate over the space with the glyph/symbols.
from my WB question
Time zones are also useful for having a schedule based on the day/night cycle relative to your position. If I'm a shopkeep and I want to have my shop open from sunup to sundown, then I'd want a schedule based on sunup and sundown times locally. Folks might not know when Candlekeep's sunup and sundown times are if we're elsewhere on the planet.
Or, even simpler: Werewolves change form at midnight local time, which is not necessarily the same as midnight Candlekeep time.
4:34 PM
@AncientSwordRage In a fantasy world? never. We eschew so much crap to make the experience fun and playable. Same with trading games, city building games, etc. If you think too hard about it, the dragons fall out of the sky and magic gets up and leaves the world.
@MikeQ My first thought was, can you continuously run from midnight to stay in human form?
@MikeQ My second thought was Werewolf-based GPS
Yes. So much yes to both of those.
There's a premise for a couple of one shots that as soon as the players figure out what's going on, I'd expect a big goofy grin on their faces.
"So the werewolf transformed 3 minutes and 16 seconds after midnight, based on candlekeep time, so we're still <some number> of mile from candlekeep"
Have to pick up the pace so we don't lose anymore werewolves. Use sending to tell the forward group to go faster.
@GcL I find it fun to think of reason why the dragons don't fall from the sky, despite thinking too hard
4:36 PM
@AncientSwordRage Theology might be the subject for you.
@ThomasMarkov I have always ruled it as "an aoe targets an area, not a creature" and any creature in the targeted area has to make a save/gets hit/what have you. Not sure how much my RL mil experience with actual weapons effects and bug splat estimates, frag patterns, etc informs that view though. A rifle, on the other hand, in single shot mode is usually aiming at a target, as is an armor piercing shell ...
@Akixkisu if it is in the chosen aoe it needs to roll its save for half damage
@Akixkisu That's not just hilarious, it's absurd and sounds like a 3.5ism ... or worse...
@Medix2 +1
@MikeQ They run on AST: Ao Standard Time. It's whatever time Ao says it is. 😛
@GcL luckily my dragon knows featherfall so he doesn't get hurt...and then magic leaves the world
4:56 PM
@KorvinStarmast Which is way better than the potted plant that knows whalefall.
5:27 PM
I'm being told that space elevators are not magical apparatus....
@AncientSwordRage That's just a measurement of longitudinal distance in degrees. Could be any distance north-south latitude.
@GcL Oh no, not again.
@JoelHarmon werewolf-gps does have some teething problems, I will admit.
> If you're struggling to get your head around how a question about wizards can be answered in a science based banner, remember Clarke's Third Law, and then re-read the question making the following substitutions: Wizard for Scientist; teleportation for FTL transportation; spell for science; magic handwavium for unexplained scientific observation.
Does that read ok?
5:44 PM
@JoelHarmon Which, historically, is the difficult coordinate to get. Just check out the celestial objects and a calendar to figure out your latitude. Of course, that's making some strong assumptions about celestial bodies in fantasy settings.
Are those stars giant spheres of gas and plasma powered by fusion? No. Those are exceedingly old and well read aasimar.
@AncientSwordRage Teeth could definitely be an issue with Garou Positioning System.
@GcL I just checked to see which was the harder to get, and yup, I think you are right
It looks like there was a 200+ year span of open prizes for a way to determine longitude, according to wiki
Whereas a clear night in the northern hemisphere lets you estimate your latitude by finding the north star and determining its angle from the horizon.
5:59 PM
Running a sailing based campaign currently. There's a vast amount of practice, equipment, and culture surrounding naval navigation that I thought might be interesting for a fantasy campaign. I was wrong. "You are here" is what the players like.
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