It worked in our campaigns. And like you, nobody got all upset about it. Each class had its own "thing" and we were all cool with that.
I sometimes have the feeling that having more PC classes didn't improve anything ...
I am not sure if I can get away with this, but I'd love to have a game world with 5e rules where the only arcane pure casters are warlocks, and the only divine pure casters are druids.
You either get them spells from Mother Nature, or from some dubiously motivated "powerful being" who has its own reasons, or (like a GOO) no reasons at all ...
I'm playing 5e right now with a party that, apart from me and the GM, knows very, very little of D&D. Not the rules, not the genre conventions, not the history. And it's been amazingly instructive for me to see them play.
@doppelgreener But I really like that idea so that I can divorce the game from Wizards and their spell books, and all of the other casters. The game is caster happy, but that makes sense, since there are so many pages full of spells and magic is fun .....
@BardicWizard The more I play D&D (and I've played every edition, I think, from 1e and BECMI, through 2e, 3.5, a bit of 4 and now a bit of 5), the more I get the feeling that the better the rules are, from a purely game-design perspective - the more streamlined, balanced and easy to use, the more they serve to create the sort of game I don't really want to play.
@lisardggY i'd venture that's correlation with other factors going on, more than direct causation
like, streamlined and easy to use rules aren't bad, right? but as the rules have developed, so has the environment they exist in and the way they've been used.
@doppelgreener Sure, there's some of that as well. But, see, the games I enjoy playing these days aren't really like the games I enjoyed back in the 90's either. I don't really go for OSR. I don't necessarily want to go back to that style - but I also don't enjoy these things in newer editions.
the focus is different, the concept of what a PC is and what they should be doing and how the gae should handle them is changing, the concept of what the game system should support has been changing and expanding, etc
(or compared to the earlier editions where a Fighter would eventually come to claim their own kingdom, the concept of what the game system should support has even shrunk in a few ways)
The idea was that the magical "civilization" wasn't advanced to the point of individual deities and praying for spells or writing down spells. Or writing at all, frankly.
@doppelgreener Yes, exactly. There was a question on the site a couple of days ago about how to give a dragon armor to up their AC. And I really appreciated @ThomasMarkov's frame-challenge answer of "just give them a higher AC. It's your monster and your encounter", but I really dislike the approach of treating the system as an immovable force that must be tweaked like a puzzle to get what you want. It's not the sort of game I want to play.
One group I’m in banned wizards because they didn’t fit the setting, and everyone is called a sorcerer anyways, if we’re talking about bannning classes
Incidentally, the game I've played the longest, I think, is Ars Magica, and there the magic system is totally geared towards tweaking the system by constructing magic spells out of tiny modifiers to balance power over cost until you can research them at a level you want - but it never bothered me there, because that system was properly integrated into the setting.
(But I've got to run to class in five min, so today's not the day for one of my repetitive rants on how to tackle what I see as bloat even in the PHB.)
@AncientSwordRage I love the setting dearly, at least the version of it we played for over 15 years, through three editions. I'll be the first to say that some parts of the mechanics really don't work well, but the core concept - both of the setting of magical mythic Europe, and of the group dynamic of rotating characters focused around a single location, works extremely well.
@BardicWizard Were "meatless Mondays" ever a thing in your school district? They were around here. And I feel like a school district with a sense of humor could have used that term for their asynchronous programming =P
@lisardggY As a player, you more or less are restricted to a pretty rigid set of rules for combat, so I can see that mindset carrying over into DMing after being just a player for a while.
@KorvinStarmast I agree that 5e made a large change in mindset from 3e there, but I think the 3e mindset has been dominant in the D&D-sphere for the past 20 years, and many 5e questions on the site show that people try to approach their problems in 5e with the same mindset.
@KorvinStarmast Not that I recall. Rogues (thieves), Barbarians, WM Sorcerer, Ranger; no fighters (no organized warbands/armies to train people at that level), clerics, wizards, monks, bards. Maybe there were champion fighters? But we might have cut back the martial weapons and armor lists.
I remember following the 5e/vNext playtest announcements when they started coming out and being ridiculously thrilled about a lot of their contents. "Magic items should have individual character and justification, not be automatically calculated as part of a character's wealth-by-level expectations" was one of my favorite after my short 4e campaign.
@lisardggY when my brother and nephew told me a new edition was out, and asked if I'd get it etc I just said "I already sold my 3.x books for beer money at half price. Not interested in a new edition" and it was six years later that the 5e basic free download came out that I finally tried the game again.
@lisardggY WBL was I think one of the things wrong with the 3x model ... though it built upon a shceme of play that AD&D 1 and 2 had made common (expecting to have lots of magic items as one got higher in level and needing stronger magic items to deal with stronger monsters/opponents/demons etc.
On an unrelated note, the club president of our d&d club asked the gms by email who’d be willing to help out with club leadership and I volunteered
he also asked if people had ideas for improving the club and I said I don’t want the club to be “d&d5e or 4e” club, I want to introduce people to indie rpgs or at least something not d&d (there’s a kid who sounds interested in shadowrun, which I want to run a game in, and a couple interested in Lady Blackbird which I mentioned in the email thread)
@RevenantBacon In my (possibly Samaritan) recollection, in the old days it wasn't the gold being looted that gained one XP, it was the usage of the gold in non-advancement ways that got one XP.
In other words, if I loot 1Kgp that's not yet XP. If I spend it on healing potions and better armor and spell components, that's not XP.
But if I donate it to the local library so they can establish a "nitsua collection," or throw a feast for the town, or build myself a manor, that's XP.
@nitsua60 That's Arneson's original idea, which turned into XP recovered from the dungeon and successfully pulled out = XP in OD&D.
In AD&D 1e EGG threw in "and you have to spend this much of it over two weeks to actually level up" because, well, I think he realized that Dave was onto something there ...
@KorvinStarmast But probably left out the influential reasoning behind it. And thus begins the process we're talking about, of superficial elements surviving long after their reasoning's been forgotten.
@KorvinStarmast I feel like some day we should make a canonical "what some grognards liked about 0e/BX/1e" list. For me it'd be XP = gold spent not on character's possessions; Law-Chaos is a cosmic war; much simpler characters --> your character's what you do at the table rather than what you abilities you have; by L8 you're a national figure; encumbrance --> you need a home base --> you're connected to a place --> NPCs recur very naturally --> motives are natural and local.
2
(Though, I suppose at some point I've just described reinventing OSR....)
@nitsua60 sort of; what I like most is the fear of death; and not getting too wrapped up emotionally in 1 character; having a stable of characters to play; having characters of diferent levels in each party, Exploration being so important "How do we get around this obstacle, anyway?" and hirelings/henchmen. Your point on "you have a stake in how {this place} fares" was a key to our fun.
(BTW that was becoming emergent as we ToA'd with our chatizen group, the sense of 'taking care of this place' but it took a while as our party changed)
I wasn't counting, but I threw quite a few in there, and you responded ...
@Axoren ... which is what comments are for. Clarification. Which we did. :)
And I think that there's a small enough set of things in an answer that it is no way a list question ... are you trying to solve this from a DM perspective or a player perspective?
@Axoren It appears that the criteria include "Neither the PCs nor the NPCs expend the fancy and costly resources needed to cast this spell but the spell happens." Right?
@KorvinStarmast In regards to Planar Ally, I assumed paying the Ally was seen as a Material Cost, I can update the question but I'm about to be away from the PC.
A lot of unvoiced -1s on that question that have me wondering what else I'd need to meet standards.
This is a tough question to ask for me because it is so specific.
At the very least, @guildsbounty came up with some good. They're probably getting the accept at the end of the day. I'm just waiting to see if more options are posted before I accept.
@Axoren I think the real issue is you led with your solutions rather than the problem. This is sort of an X-Y issue.
Your actual problem is you are travelling somewhere that you don't think will give you access to required material components.
You also didn't tell us what level you are, what magic items you have access to or that you have historically had access to.
But instead of talking to your DM about potential concerns so you can work on solutions, you jumped with a guess to the solution and asking others to parse the material to find it for you.
@NautArch I'm somewhat confused, because while that is my expectation, I presented a fairly straight forward problem. Should we find gold and diamonds, then we can just have our Bard cast Revivify or Raise Dead. However, should we not, what other alternatives are there?
My problem is either X or Y, but we have a solution to X so that's why I'm asking about how to solve Y.
But the solution is just a parsing of the text to find those things - something you could do, too.
And yes, @Someone_Evil Hits it on the head as well.
The core problem isn't "find me all the cases that fits this, even if they don't match my part makeup". It's the problem you clarified in the comments regarding your travel plans.
I mean, do you have anyone in your party that is a cleric for Divine Intervention? Or that can cast wish or the other spells? Or can use the Rod of Resurrection? Can you respec someone to be a zealot barbarian?
I didnt upvote that answer because I'm not sure it's actually applicable to your problem.
@Axoren Sure, but if you debate back and don't accept the input, then it's just a debate/argument. And that's what we don't want.
Several of my players also peruse this resource.
Do any of the DMs who use this have any suggestions or advice to ensure questions I ask here regarding plot specific campaign details don’t spoil things for those players?
Put all that information in. But again, I'd describe the problem, not the potential solution. Let the community come up with solutions - you may be surprised.
@Someone_Evil It isn't an entirely new question. It's a clarification question of what was originally asked. It should be reopened and edited with the newer one duped to it, no?
According to the spell "Conjure Animals" on P. 225 of the PHB, the description states:
Choose one of the following options for what appears [...]
Besides selecting one or more beasts based on the challenge rating, how do you determine exactly which beast appears?
Is this a random roll by t...
A lot of stuff was mixed along the discussions in chat that I couldn't keep up with simult. I need to scroll up and give everything a fair read before I do anything to the question.
If you are Stunned, your movement isn't reduced to 0 (unlike grappled.) Can you stand up from prone while Stunned? Can you also drop prone from standing?
Stunned
A stunned creature is incapacitated (see the condition), can’t move, and can speak only falteringly.
The creature automatically fails...
Just be glad it's over. Studying current events in later school years gets so much more complicated as the interpretations of those events may change before your exams as new information comes to light.
@KorvinStarmast :nod: The big sticking point I have with more recent D&D is the way it's made designing your character into the essential expressive activity. You're supposed to painstakingly sculpt your perfect jewel of a character, then bring it to the table to show it off.
@NautArch Backstories are always really tough for lower-level campaigns. As a DM, I used to have to remind some of our newest players that their characters couldn't have too many grand heroic deeds in there because they're level 1.
I tend to make my characters, have a really simple reason why they are there, and then develop them as I play and interact with the other characters and story.
It really works for Rime. I keep envisioning that as Alaska meets Antarctica. You get the reasons for why folks move to Alaska and/or work in North Sea fishing and the weather of antarctica.
I'm a newly fledged acolyte with a grand goal and no reasonable expectation on how to achieve it as of yet. That goal and delusion of grandeur has me traveling all the way to Icewind Dale from Deeping Dale.
Once our Dungeon of the Upset Magic Dude ends, we're gonna switch gears to Rime.
I like to think of backstory as having two parts. One is what has happened to the character which is helpful for the player to (role)play them, the other is Personal story which has yet to happen, and is useful for the DM to help integrate them into the story/campaign. I found actually pointing this out (and asking for both parts) helped against players only producing the former, leaving little to work with
And, of course, this all heavily relies on a DM that can integrate those stories. Which I haven't yet found in my area. I'm going to try and do it, but so far, I think that's one of the hardest things about DMing.
@Axoren my level 6 sorcerer, Fiametta Contadine, who I mention a lot about here, has about 2 sections in her backstory. 1: the people related to her who she cares about (3 that are currently alive), and 2, the false identities she has and their histories
@BardicWizard False identities is always a huge part of Shadowrun for me. You might enjoy that system if you like that style of play.
Every time I take a job from a Johnson, I wear a different face and use a different fake sin.
If one gets burned, I sell it to some poor sap that needs a new identity.
The big thing I think new players have with making characters is they lack that second part, you're talking about, @Someone_Evil. Players' call to actions are either nonexistent (I live a really comfortable life in Whiterun as a farmer) or they have a really vague one that without any gravity or reckoning (I want to go on an adventure, take me anywhere).
For a normal player, a big goal would probably be to become a Royal Guard Captain to the king. For which they need a history of deeds that make them standout among their fellow soldiers.
> Note: I am aware of a separate manuscript tradition wherein Hani throws his axe only after Gríðó throws his, but this appears to be a clumsy later emendation made by medieval editors who wished to present Hólmgǫngu-Hani in a more chivalric light. That same manuscript tradition has a scene where King Jabbi confronts Hani in Mósæsli.
See, if I were playing through RotFM with Fiametta (unlikely but for this example), her goal in doing this would be different for each identity, but the true reason may well be “if I do this I learn about my magic and I don’t have to deal with Açaí for a few weeks”
(açaí is the magic dude who’s the reason other adventures started in her home timeline and also trying to kill the party a bit)
@BardicWizard RotFM would actually be the best campaign for such a character because of the secret system. Everyone's paranoid. Everyone's got something to hide. But you'd have so many more things to hide. Especially even if all your identities have a different secret
Her false identities (Gianetta, Tessa, and the rest) would claim other reasons (“for the h*ck of it/because money”, and “because I have a farm”, and “if I don’t deal with it someone else gets the glory”, respectively)
@Axoren all my identities have at least one goal that disagrees with Fia’s main goal just to keep people guessing. Most of them are also hiding something
My Warlock's current goal in Dungeon of the Angry Boi is that he wants to kill the Angry Boi because it will further the goal of the Sun of eventually consuming the planet. Halaster is seen by the Sun as a source of "darkness" that will stave off the Sun when the time comes.
This gives him a reason for wanting to travel with the party as far down as they'll go.
We actually had a new player try to join one of our games and he was not prepared for what we very accurately described as "grimdark murder nomads"
Eventually, he realized how hard it was to justify his character joining us when we started systematically beheading bandits after a skirmish and not letting a single one escape.
He was expecting a much more light-hearted game and had no character reason for why he would put up with how gritty we were.
Having a goal or a trajectory eventually helped him figure things out.
It would also help if maybe we sold ourselves better initially on just how dark the campaign already was as a result of us.
But many of the characters in our party had grown fond of the group because we had plenty of reasons initially to work together.
We have a new new player now finding themselves fitting in a lot better because they have that reason to cooperate with us.
We get results and he's been wanting some.
He's an investigator whos case involves our planehopping.
Oh boy... Dungeon of the Mad Mage has been a ride. We were actually playing Dragon Heist overlapping with Dungeon of the Mad Mage because when I joined, the group had decided that their ultimate goal would be to become a Criminal Enterprise centered around the branding of a Tiger they stole completely unrelated to the goal of the Dragon Heist.
Don't lose hope. Eventually, you'll get your DM to say "I'm not allowing Nuclear Fission in-universe" like every debate about Prestidigitation and Mage Hand
"I'm only applying 5 lbs. of force, just doing it really really specifically on this point right here points at electron microscope"
Between us, our group has enough science/engineering/pure math knowledge to come up with these ideas and research them, just not do them IRL (except explosions. Only one party member has had more explosion-related incidents than me, IRL or in game)
Various internet sources claim to set the new Icewind Dale adventure at 1450s Dale Reckoning time, and I'm trying to pin down when it actually takes place.
From Rime of the Frostmaiden:
Assuming a few years past before Auril returned, I'm assuming the intended setting for this is approximately 1...
@nitsua60 Thanks! Though, my friend is specifically looking for ethical third-party publishers.
@lisardggY For "adventurers as social outcasts" I think of Sundown.
It's a queer/disability allegory about how being ostracized by spaces which demand you lie about yourself to be accepted, is actually an empowering opportunity.
It's set in a world with the usual marginalizations around atypical bodies/minds/attractions. Transhuman body modification is available but using it merits marginalization too. So people who modify themselves to be more true to themselves, AND people who don't modify themselves to conform to "normal" standards, are both cast to the edges of society. The game is about the people who live in those edges, and how it's better to make your own way in the edges and make your own center.
@BardicWizard I feel you - as someone who is very glad to be well beyond school as an institution and all it entails - I hope you make your way through it with a minimum of uglienss, and find your way to better things in the world :)
user15026
(I think anyone who tells you those are the best days of your life is super, super wrong.)
@KorvinStarmast I'd agree with all the things you mentioned, too. And I think ToA definitely had the elements to feel that way. (Both the written elements and the party elements.) The challenge, of course, with the hardcovers, is that the moment you mention a published title there's a narrative line already established that has a serious gravitational pull.
Consider for example a character hears a voice recording of someone, such as a recording that a journalist made of an interview. Later the character coincidentally meets someone who spoke in that recording.
What should they be called to roll to see if they can recognise the character by the voice...
@NautArch When I ran it the whole table was very happy with the "you don't necessarily have a reason to be here, you just have bunches of reasons to not be other places" line.
Several of my players also peruse this resource.
Do any of the DMs who use this have any suggestions or advice to ensure questions I ask here regarding plot specific campaign details don’t spoil things for those players?
According to the spell "Conjure Animals" on P. 225 of the PHB, the description states:
Choose one of the following options for what appears [...]
Besides selecting one or more beasts based on the challenge rating, how do you determine exactly which beast appears?
Is this a random roll by t...
If you are Stunned, your movement isn't reduced to 0 (unlike grappled.) Can you stand up from prone while Stunned? Can you also drop prone from standing?
Stunned
A stunned creature is incapacitated (see the condition), can’t move, and can speak only falteringly.
The creature automatically fails...
