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4:04 AM
The former “Gaming Club” at my school is now officially the “Tabletop Role-Playing Games Club”, as listed on the website. Apparently the name change is because the “Video Game Society” was tired of having people sign up for the wrong club. sigh school politics...
@BardicWizard I see that as a win for RPGs too.
Yeah, we get confused people on rpg.se and in this chat, looking to talk about CRPGs.
But of course, any attempt to specify our topic range, runs into pedantry because so many games are online and thus feature neither table nor pen nor paper.
4:44 AM
I’m quite happy that it’s renamed. I’m frustrated that this wasn’t voted on or anything, mostly on principle. The teacher-moderator just sent out an email saying “Hello, Gaming Club! Most of you may recall a lot of confusion around our club and the Video Game Society last year at club day. I am happy to announce that our club is going to be renamed the Tabletop Role-Playing Games Club, in an attempt to minimize the issues. Please remember that our first meeting is...”
5:05 AM
(Side note, realized when I’m supposed to be asleep: the reason this bugs me is that the email telling us the GSA’s pride week was canceled also started with “Hi All! Most of you may recall our discussion last week about our upcoming Pride Week...” so I guess it just reads like bad news to me)
5:27 AM
5:59 AM
My friend wants suggestions for D&D 5e Tier 3/4 (4 preferred) campaign/adventures, third-party, physically printed, to run for students (ages 12 to 18) at their local high school.
1 hour later…
7:16 AM
good morning.
(For flexible values of "morning". And of "good")
I've started working on my "RPG campaigns adapted to novels or TV shows" talk, and I'm wondering if Dragonlance is even a meaningful reference for people younger than I am these days.
@BESW I haven't tested them, but there are some adventures for those levels in Frog God Games' Quests of Doom (volume 1, volume 2, and book 3) which is available in print & PDF.
@lisardggY Hmmm, it was never a meaningful reference to me personally; the most attachment I had to Dragonlance was liking a Blind Guardian song about Raistlin.
@Adeptus I'll mention it! FGG is on my List Of TRPG Actors To Side-Eye but they're in the It's Complicated column.
7:33 AM
@BESW I'm not talking about attachment, more about recognizing the name and being aware of it in the cultural landscape.
Ah, hrm. Good question!
I'm not sure Dragonlance has been A Thing since 3.5 closed shop?
Me: "Obviously, Dragonlance is the classic example of an RPG adapted to a novel"
Audience: "Dragon*what*"?
Me: "Dragonlance? A series of dozens of novels? A popular D&D campaign setting in the 90's? Bad animated movies?"
Audience: "*what*lance?"
do not Dragonlance here mortal XD
Hmm. The Expanse comes to mind.
7:39 AM
Q: What tier are Path of War classes?

Baskakov_DmitriyI know what class tiers are, and I know what tier most Pathfinder classes are. However, I have recently discovered Path of War, an alternative rule system published by Dreamscarred Press. It introduces many new classes to the game, and I don't think I know the system well enough to judge every on...

@BESW Yeah, I've got it in my list, though Ihaven't read or watched it.
Also, apparently the writer of the Book of Malazan would run scenes in GURPS before the final draft.
What about TV shows that used TRPG tools in the writer's room?
Interesting. Which?
May 15 at 0:59, by BESW
(I'm not just making that up, he's explicitly said that his writer's room uses TRPGs for inspiration when he's making TV shows.)
That show would be The Librarians?
7:46 AM
That's the one he's explicitly confirmed as using both Cortex and Fate tools in the writing room, but he's said he uses it for other shows too.
Once you know it, you can easily see the character aspects getting compelled and invoked. Sometimes I think they even say the character aspects out loud, especially in the first few episodes.
Excellent, that's exactly the bits I was still missing - the parts where you can see the dice rolling in the background.
And this screenshot is very Cortexy, and you can see those relationship lines in action: every time they split the group up it's like "okay, whose relationship dynamic is going to be most problematic for THIS episode?"
An easy example of character aspects, is the character Ezekiel Jones. He's got a Towering ego which gets compelled for him to make missions go wrong if he feels like he's being underestimated, or he sees an opportunity to show off. But he can also invoke it when, for example, they need someone as bait for a pride-eating monster.
Though that might just be a case of writing and characterization that we're shoehorning into a Fate mindset.
@BESW There's also The Great List - you they will need to dig a bit to find which ones are print vs electronic though
@lisardggY I'd think that, yeah. I've certainly done a lot of "how would I model this in Fate" thought exercises for a lot of the media I watch.
But between Rogers explicitly citing Fate as a source of writing room tools, and the way they occasionally describe each other with perfectly written character aspects which are then the pivots for the episodes...
It's not "we played a TRPG and then made it into an episode," but it's very much "these TRPG systems provide us with tools for consistent characters and dramatic character-driven episodes."
8:22 AM
@lisardggY I think one of the tricky things here is, you're more likely to "hear the dice rolling" in adaptations that aren't as "good," because a really proficient translation from one medium to another usually means smoothing out the signature tells of the original medium in favor of the new medium's tells.
So a really good "inspired by our campaign" TV show like The Expanse, is gonna be less obviously "inspired by" than a "uses TRPG tools because they do the thing we like" TV show like The Librarians. The Expanse converted to novels and then TV because they couldn't do what they wanted to do in a TRPG and so they abandoned all the TRPG structures. The Librarians uses TRPG structures because that's exactly what they want in their TV show.
I've often expressed that I'd like to work on my skills writing prose, perhaps to even publish something one of these days. My TRPG friends say, "it's easy, just play RPGs and play each character yourself", which feels to me a lot like they misunderstand what makes TRPGs good and what makes literature good
Yeah, I've actually seen an interview with Steven Erikson where he says... exactly that.
8:41 AM
Oooh, on a related note, I've long since realized I've been trying to emulate things that work well in video game and film narratives in short fiction, and they... generally don't work that well.
Oh yes, that was a breakthrough moment for me, and I'm still struggling to identify how to parse what I like in other mediums into TRPG-shaped implementations.
(For the record? WoW boss fight mechanic ideas actually DID translate pretty well into D&D 4e.)
@BESW That's a good point, and one I should point out.
On that scale, Dragonlance wobbles between "don't know how to get the dice out of our novels" and "our publisher insists we keep the dice in the novels because it's cross-media franchising baby."
I think early Dragonlance leaned more towards the first. TSR was a very young organization and I don't think anyone knew what they were doing.
9:00 AM
@kviiri I learnt recently the Expanse novels are based on the world building for the Author's MMORPG that never got made
in that way you can set yourself up for a novel, but I agree it's a different thing to write it
Yeah, worldbuilding is somewhat different and more applicable cross-genre, at times.
9:16 AM
@AncientSwordRage Possibly similar case: the Defiance the MMO and Defiance the TV series are set in the same world. (And I found the series good enough to watch and a reasonable thing to perhaps inspire a campaign some day. But I haven't played the MMO in question.)
@vicky_molokh-unsilenceMonica interesting
@Someone_Evil that would make an interesting in-game meta-BBEG
@vicky_molokh-unsilenceMonica I watched most of the first season. It started nicely, though kind of faded off,.
Though I did appreciate that they wrote a futuristic space-opera setting where the main conflict were between dwarf-proxies and elf-proxies.
@lisardggY I watched all three seasons. I liked that it had a matter-of-fact problem-solving-oriented kind of take on the grim situations that other works often tend to approach from a pathos-oriented misery-savouring perspectives (and I really don't find the latter interesting to watch).
@lisardggY People usually attribute dwarf-and-elf-ness to Babylon 5 species AFAIK, and that was both earlier and more space-operatic, right?
Though of course the B5 conflict axis was more Narn-Centauri than Narn-Minbari.
I don't watch enough TV
9:43 AM
Q: How can you tell the distances by road between the settlements of Ten Towns in Icewind Dale?

Thomas MarkovI've read through Chapter 1 of Icewind Dale: Rime of the Frostmaiden and have not found any guidance on how to judge distances between the settlements of Ten Towns. Other than a good old fashion ruler compared to the map scale, is there a quick way to determine the distances between the settlemen...

9:53 AM
@BardicWizard We hd BUTTs and BUCS for the Table Top Society and the Computer(gaming) Society
10:07 AM
\\00/ DG!
really wish I had access to rime of the frostmaiden now
@Carcer is it in the stackizen campaign yet?
dunno. I'm not in it, as far as I know
I have an offline friend who has most of what's on dndbeyond and I get all my access through him
ah ok
what is an 'offline friend' ? :-p
an "IRL friend" except without the implication that online relationships are not real
10:13 AM
@Carcer that is a good phrasing
@AncientSwordRage it is :)
<jjj>I need paragraphs, paragraphs about doppelgangers</jjj>
@Akixkisu Did I dream the bear-people character race?
10:29 AM
@AncientSwordRage I don't think the Urskan are in it, but I haven't done a deep dive yet.
@Akixkisu is that the name?
@AncientSwordRage that is what I have in my head from way back when, so I don't vouch for it.
@Akixkisu not in there
I have found a reference, but it may be spoilery
@AncientSwordRage I'm the dm :)
A curious one.
10:36 AM
@AncientSwordRage very cool, thanks.
@Akixkisu isn't that the point of Icewind Dale?
@AncientSwordRage no, the atmosphere :)
return of the fruit masher
revenge of the flamingo master
rise of the flagrant mariachi
RotFM: the catchiest punkest all-zombie music station this side of the mountains. coming at you now with ded zepplin's new hit single
@doppelgreener There's a Penny Arcade character I daren't link/mention
oh yes that memory came to mind and then was immediately exiled to the wastelands
10:51 AM
Roy, or: the First MUDder.
Representative of the Fish Mongers
retailer of tremendously fine masks
(that one would be RoTFM, but the shopkeep has esoteric opinions on capitalisation)
1 hour later…
12:24 PM
Pretty sure it should be RotF, no "M".
Frostmaiden is stylized as one word.
Which I ran my first session of RotF saturday
@AncientSwordRage I'm using the theros pantheon and piety system with RotF
@ThomasMarkov I'm excited
so were running it as a "not enough people to play our main campaign" game
How're you planning in doing that? Feel free to ping me in another room if it's going to be intense
Had two players saturday. We're still doing it in forgotten realms, just using the Theros pantheon. Heliod the God of the Sun and Kruphix the God of the passage of time are quite upset about the whole issue.
Heliod because the sun isnt shining, and Kruphix because the seasons arent being allowed to pass.
They coordinated to have their champions meet in Ten-Towns and try to solve the problem.
12:50 PM
Theros gods in the FR is such a wild idea
Also I'm loving how you're using them
So far Ive got a Lawful-Good Light Cleric paired up with a True-Neutral Thief Rogue.
Had a pretty fantastic first encounter. I started them at level 3. The rogue is playing an air genasi.
They end up fighting a killer moose outside. Air genasi casts levitate on the cleric, cleric just slings spells from the air while the rogue bounces around kiting the supremely pissed off moose.
@ThomasMarkov Rime of the Frostmaiden
@ThomasMarkov it is indeed
Rogue of the Frostmaiden (Paragon Path)
You might charitably acronymise as RTFM for maximum confusion
12:58 PM
Read the Frozen Manual?
1:08 PM
@ThomasMarkov how'd it go? We're just starting with the courier encounters on dndbeyond.
@ThomasMarkov Id not, however know what the 'whole issue' is
Hello all! Haven't talked here in a while since I decided to go all-in on helping Charcoal empty their spam queue.
@Rubiksmoose welcome back!
@Rubiksmoose Hello! That sounds like good work
@BESW no advice on adventures, sorry, but please wish them luck. High schoolers and d&d can be fun but hard (source: experience) and it can be super hard to get something all the players will enjoy.
1:10 PM
@AncientSwordRage "whole issue" meaning neverending winter
@ThomasMarkov There's a never ending winter?
I've not actually read the 'Frozen Manual'
I survived! And boy howdy do I have a new appreciation for the term "low quality" after reviewing ~19,000 lower quality posts from across the network XD
@BardicWizard Thanks, I'll pass that on. They're coming into an existing playgroup to work with the "experienced" players, and the school's footing the bill for physical adventure books.
@Rubiksmoose Are you looking to buy a spell
@BESW I never said why I only ever ran one game at highschool (secondary school)
1:12 PM
@NautArch It was great! We started in lonelywood
I tried to get two different friend groups in the sam campaign, and the experienced players turned on the new players
like actual PvP
@AncientSwordRage Oh. I thought you meant...aroused
@ThomasMarkov Well have to chat more as I approach a strat.
@NautArch hah! Surprisingly few of those. Partially because many of the posts I reviewed were quite old which meant that they were usually 1) really tricky to figure out if it was actually spam 2) boring and just very low quality and/or 3) in russian.
1:13 PM
@ThomasMarkov No, that's Monsterhearts.
@ThomasMarkov uh...no... that would have been slightly better/worse but I'm not sure which
@NautArch Protection from spam
@Someone_Evil counterspell!
@BESW Hey I lived near part of the Erie Canal but the one in Ohio not NY. :)
I've got an ancestor (I think a great-great(-great?)-uncle) who had a barge on the Canal.
1:15 PM
@BESW that’s gonna be tough. Anything involving an existing playgroup with an (implied or real) divide between experienced and inexperienced players already sounds cliquey to me but that could just be a function of my experience
@BardicWizard Yeah, I kinda side-eyed that one but it sounds like it just means they've been playing long enough in that group to have high-level characters.
Which, also implies Things I Wouldn't Do, but is a little less obviously loaded.
@BESW low bridge!
@BESW nice! Have you done work into your family tree much or just happen to know this little tidbit?
@Rubiksmoose Hello!!!!
1:21 PM
@BESW This might be something @nitsua60 would be well equipped to give advice on
@Rubiksmoose Some family a generation or so back did a lot with ancestry records and I've heard people talking about it. I'm also known in the wider family as The One Who Found That Book Our Great-Aunt Always Said Existed But Nobody Could Ever Find; she swore he was an "elbow relation" but nobody's got any support for that.
I want to do some more research into, less the family specifically, but more their area, the history and customs and stories of the place.
@BESW Why am I not surprised that you'd be the one to find obscure books :)
Yet at the same time, still impressed.
Yeah, I would avoid leveling up characters enough to have a huge divide. Our school club does “weighted leveling”, which is a thing the GMs came up with: the teacher-moderator has an extra whiteboard in the back of the classroom we met in, and every group had a level and a number of sessions.
Every 5 sessions that most group members played the group leveled up. You could change groups with the same character to any group within 2 levels, to change to other groups you need a new character
It worked mostly cause we had 4 GMs with varying levels of experience and a strict “wealth by level” rule that restricted characters
I just leveled up everybody. If you came and hadn't leveled up your character, either you had time before we started or you used one of the non-committed characters I kept on the side, leveled and ready for new players.
...Then I stopped using games where leveling mattered like that. If I'd stayed with D&D I was probably about six months out from devising a non-numerical leveling alternative.
@Rubiksmoose [grin] And this was with dialup Internet!
1:43 PM
I do not like the options available for rejecting suggested edits
@Carcer Is "get off my lawn" no longer an option?
well the thing is that someone's suggested a superfluous edit to one of my posts but the reject reason available is "no improvement whatsoever" which feels exceptionally harsh
1:58 PM
What’s with all the shouting?
press M for Map
@Carcer M
@Carcer Is that like F to pay respects?
@BardicWizard Map Men is a series of short, informative, and irreverent YouTube videos about maps. Its theme song is extremely catchy.
@RevenantBacon yes. (press <letter> for <something starting with letter>) is a recurring joke in the drawfee streams I watch and probably other places on the internet I don't care about
jay foreman's music is generally quite good
I've seen him live opening for one of the tech dif citation needed live events
@Carcer Maybe thats just the streams, but I've never seen it on the youtube vids
Oh. I don’t pay much attention to youtube except when I have to watch something for school
@AncientSwordRage it makes more sense when you have live chat yeah
@AncientSwordRage they have a second channel where they're putting vods of their twitch streams now though in case you're unaware! Obviously not quite as tight as an edited video but they're still generally very fun to watch if you like the drawfee crew
2:04 PM
So what I'm hearing is
@Carcer Yeah I've noticed...I have yet to watch as it's like ~2hrs per vid
@AncientSwordRage yeah, I've been slowly catching up sort of watching them while I work
you can usually put them on 1.25x speed without issues
@Carcer I've got a lot of other stuff to catch up on as well...
@Carcer hah I'll remember that
2:20 PM
Aaaarrrggghhhh I just realized a glaring hole in the setting I wrote. “Lady” is a common first name for children of the 6th noble house, house Lyril. But all 7 noble houses use “Ladymage” or “Gentlemage” as the title for the head of house. So little Lady Lyril might grow up to be Ladymage Lady Lyril. Which sounds wrong. (Or Gentlemage Lady Lyril, but that’s not as bad)
the gender neutral title is just Mage, which isn’t so bad either, but the players have to go save Ladymage Lady Lyril and this now bugs me
it's still in there
but nobody will ever notice
@BardicWizard This is an Important and Valuable Tradition, and you are not to laugh at it, or make fun of it. Everyone has heard the joke, and it is not really the done thing, at least not within earshot of a noble family member.
An alternate suggestion: may I suggest that upon coming of age the people of Lyril may often choose a new name for themselves? The young Lady Lyril is so named in anticipation of her one day becoming Ladymage of Lyril. However, it's not expected she'll keep and regularly use that name in day to day life: she may be Ladymage Cheryl of Lyril, for example. She is also Ladymage Lady of Lyril, but that's relegated to certain contexts.
And yes, people can make fun of it, but it's like that joke: "You're from Hungary, eh? You must be famished! Ha, ha, ha! Get it?"
i.e. it's not funny even the first time, and it comes to mind for everyone, and a few people say it out loud and find out there's not actually anything to it
Although, if it were my place to say, I would insist that there is still that hearsay about the time the elderly Ladymage of Lyril—now abdicated for her daughter—had someone thrown over the balcony at a party who was very drunk and wouldn't stop making jokes about the name.
(The Ladymage herself may also have been emboldened to rash action on account of having had a few drinks herself at that point in the night.)
2:35 PM
I approve of all of this nonsense. Real life is very nonsensical.
Also: "Lady" might be pronounced differently when it's a proper name.
Like Saint John.
(As a given name in Britain, it's pronounced more like sinjen.)
All the noble houses use alliteration, so i guess she might have a second name she goes by most of the time— The players have a Lyra Lyril, but I can come up with a lot of names that work
I'll also openly theorise that Lady is the modernised spelling and pronunciation of a much older name that was already traditional for the House a few centuries ago. The name morphed, and whether it became what it is today out of coincidence, or because people noticed the similarity with "Ladymage" and kept conflating them, is up to speculation with probably both being true.
Names are hard to get right, but I do like the idea of everyone having heard the joke and nobody saying anything, since that way she never heard it and the players saying it, as players are wont to do, will cause tension
On the contrary I am sure each Lady Lyril has heard the joke a hundred times during her adolescence alone, as is the case for anyone who grows up anywhere or with any name that has an obvious joke attached to it
@BESW I've got a little bit of thoughts on this. I haven't run T4 stuff with the highschoolers, though. I've run T4 published stuff and I've run for the highschoolers, but putting those together pegs my gonzo-meter a bit too hard =)
2:43 PM
In another place I use "Blue" for an alias and I have lost count of the number of times someone's noticed the name and gone straight to saying "da ba dee da ba di" out loud. It doesn't even irk me anymore, it's just "okay, cool, they're getting that out of their system, that's fine."
My immediate recommendation would be for the person to pick a season of Adventurer's League whose setting/theme/elements they liked, grab the T4 modules that were published that year, and look at stitching three or four of them into a coherent "campaign."
Lady Lyril would have come up with her response to it, which might be "yes, well" and move on immediately, or stare at them and let it be an awkward silence, etc
Or even to pretend it didn't happen as though she has altogether tuned out that joke at this point.
@BESW agreed
@doppelgreener I have a call of Cthulhu character named Aline (sounds like aah-leen) who works in math. Other characters have called her a line, as in the geometrical term. The other players thought it was funny but I didn’t
@doppelgreener modernisation doesn't even need to modern
2:48 PM
@doppelgreener that’d be her response
@BardicWizard Exactly like that.
at some point Debenham morphed into Deadman, which is why as a Child I saw someone call into a kids show as "Susan Deadman-Jones"
@doppelgreener my former last name sounds like "None" or "Nun" so I feel you on the jokes. (legit had someone think I was saying I didn't have a last name when I said what it was. My family defaults to saying it and immediately spelling it to fix the confusion.)
There is no way Lady Lyril has never heard this before. She has heard it so many times she has A Response for it. At least one. Multiple depending on context.
Her family has spent generations deciding upon Suitable Responses to People Who Make That Joke About Ladymage Lady Lyril.
And one of them is probably just that sort of stare that says "really? That's the best you have got?"
2:52 PM
"Throw them in the dungeon" turned out to be diplomatically and logistically unworkable given the number of important correspondents who were being committed to the dungeon, but it was tried for a bit.
@doppelgreener including at least 3 of the heads of other houses
And honestly I should know how to deal with this, my real name rhymes with “smelly”
@BardicWizard Yes, quite
@BardicWizard There you go. Channel that energy.
I have a relative whose last name is Pet. They figured out they could never name a son Stuart.
@NautArch wince
Also on my mind is that some Ladies have decided their response is "oh, a funny guy huh?" and decide to play their own joke at the expense of the joker, and being royalty, their options for such a joke are quite boundless. That said, I would emphatically not actually do this to the players—it would be punishing a player for engaging with an obvious opportunity you presented within your own setting, and that's not a GM trick you want to teach them to expect.
However, this may have happened to the man in the corridor who is currently being made to wear a rubbish-looking lion suit.
(Doing that to the players would be teaching them not to engage in the setting you give them in a way they would remember like you remember not to touch fire; and it would be punching down, since you set them up for this and have all the power in this situation. Doing this to an NPC is another matter entirely.)
3:01 PM
@doppelgreener I wouldn’t do it to them, just on principle. They’re setting off to rescue her, so even if one of them makes the joke she’s probably not going to harm her rescuers
In a game like Fate where setbacks and negative consequences are part of the fun, that would be an open invitation for a player to commit a social gaff and screw things up. Most games won't support that though.
@BardicWizard Radical.
@BESW Oh, there was a thread on that at GiTP, I'll go and see what people recommended.
@NautArch ...?
@BardicWizard Well, unless she's suddenly become uninterested in being recued
@AncientSwordRage Stu Pet
3:02 PM
maybe I pronounce pet differently?
the e in pet is the same as in test
same here
it's not the same sound as stupid, but it's close enough people will make the association
I would not have made that leap
I pronounce the i in stupid like the i in hid
IMHO parents have a responsibility to ensure that whatever name they give their child can't and won't be used to make fun of them.
3:04 PM
as opposed to how you say head
Yes, same
But someone will make that leap, and then it will become A Thing
I mean... someone will always make some leap
Sure, but we can at least do what we can to minimise harm here. Nobody's ever made a joke out of my name in my native language; there isn't one available.
@doppelgreener that’s why the kid I most hated in 5th grade called me Smelly and why I was really glad to be out of that school
@doppelgreener Some sort of miranda warning for parents: "... What you name your child can, and will be used against them..."
3:09 PM
@BESW oops, nvm, I just noticed that nits covered this, and better due students ...
@Someone_Evil Yes perfect
[sees ticker] wait a minute, i was right!?
2 hours ago, by doppelgreener
@ThomasMarkov Rime of the Frostmaiden
i was just making a joke about rimefrost
i guess they might have been too
@doppelgreener Yes, that's the assumption I had made when I read it
slightly disappointed it's not Rhyme of the Frostmaiden, which I thought might be a little bit cleverer
@doppelgreener I'm sure people have made a joke of my name at some point, despite it being a quite leap
@Someone_Evil Admiral Grace Hopper's parents sniff at your suggestion ...
3:13 PM
but like, more obscure? but in a good way
@doppelgreener yeah, I'd have liked that too, but I am pretty sure they didn't want to have to put more poetry into the book.
I mean, what does rhyme with frostmaiden? Orange sure doesn't ... but then, it apparently doesn't rhyme with anything...
How many ways are there in 5e to resurrect a person without spending gold?
Q: What spells are available to resurrect characters?

Timo TürschmannWhat official spells exist that can be used by characters to resurrect their fallen comrades in Dungeons & Dragons? Which classes can cast them and at what level?

True Polymorphing into a Planetar and casting Raise Dead is free.
^ worth consulting
3:16 PM
And it's not on that list
Raise Dead is, but becoming an Angel so that your Raise Deads are free is not.
Are there other methods in that vein?
Casting Conjure Celestial 9th Level to summon a Holyphant to cast Raise Dead for you is another one.
Wishing for one of those spells is another.
@KorvinStarmast laden, say then...
"I sure wish my friend was alive."
Make sure they have 3 levels of Barbarian and the Zealot Path?
@Someone_Evil "I wish our Wizard had 3 Levels of Barbarian (Zealot)."
It's always the Wizards that die, for some reason.
And now there came both mist and snow, And it grew wondrous cold:
And ice, mast-high, came floating by, As green as emerald.
And through the drifts the snowy clifts Did send a dismal sheen:
Nor shapes of men nor beasts we ken— The ice was all between.
The ice was here, the ice was there, The ice was all around:
It crack’d and growl’d, and roar’d and howl’d, Like noises in a swound!
In the same way that cold and emerald almost rhyme, I suppose.
3:22 PM
My favorite maritime poem is not the Rime of the Ancient Mariner, but rather Longfellow's Wreck of the Hesperus
Lepanto is a fine poem, but it's at times a bit baulky ...
@doppelgreener there're no healing rituals
@AncientSwordRage I didn't need it to be without resources, just money-free.
hmmmmmm it's just hit me that resurrection is functionally a capitalist enterprise in D&D 5e
It's a money sink because adventurers with money are stronger than Gods.
Simply because at any point, they can invent scientology and then ascend divine ranks through their cult.
3:28 PM
@Axoren oh, I wasn't concerned about that
I just wanted to add warlock to the list, but there're so few rituals in 5E and none of them are healing
@Axoren thats 3.5e
@AncientSwordRage Yeah, and that's where 5e gets their tradition of paying for revives.
@doppelgreener Ok, can you elaborate on that? (An interesting thought, to be sure ...)
It's like those phone games when you die and it asks "Would you like to spend Gems to revive your characters?"
And you're literally using a Gem that cost you real-life currency to buy.
It's exactly the same.
@Axoren Or steal. :)
@Axoren The freemium model applied to adventuring?
3:32 PM
@KorvinStarmast Wedding Rings are the easiest to take if you have the Gloves of Thievery.
Aha, while there was a chance to fail based on a Constitution based resurrection roll ... AD&D 1e had no material component for raise dead. Raise Dead (Necromantic) Reversible Level: 5 Components: V, S Range: 3" Casting Time: I round Duration: Permanent Saving Throw: Special
@KorvinStarmast I'll gesture to the current conversations around socialised healthcare and the extortionate prices people in the USA pay to doctors or hospitals, versus most countries providing the same healthcare basically for free or minimal costs, and note that you can only be resurrected if you have a sizeable sum of money to pay for it, as opposed to resurrection not requiring material wealth to perform but instead other requirements.
Like, "the spirit to be resurrected must have a strong enough will" would in and of itself be justification to make resurrection available to adventurers while not making it so commonplace that everyone and their uncle treats death as a revolving door.
@doppelgreener Nothing is free, it takes taxes to fund "free" stuff like that, and that's a Not A Bar discussion. The sticky point over here is the tax issue, but nobody disagrees that the costs have become ridiculous.
I'm not ready to have a discussion about socialised healthcare, just, you asked me to elaborate
It would appear that 3.5e and 5e use the "but if you pay extra, you don't have to roll that saving throw" as a mod to the original?
@doppelgreener Yeah, OK, gotcha, thanks for spelling it out.
Nah, that's not right, since revivify costs a diamond and it didn't in AD&D 1e ...
3:36 PM
@doppelgreener Interestingly, this question has someone referencing 5e with regard to WoD.
Sep 6 at 11:20, by lisardggY
@Carcer It's handwaved because it makes death a function of socio-economic class, not a human condition.
@NautArch Vampire has a 5e
WoD/CoD editions are messed up
@lisardggY And it relies on the availability of a cleric of appropriate level, which most locales probably don't have ....
@AncientSwordRage Yeah, i guess that' the vampire from WoD. But just referencing that at least a user of that game calls it 5e, which means assuming 5e is D&D ain't always true.
but I guess 5e+ D&D stuff...
For sure
I mean, I am on the "5e Doesn't Mean D&D" train
That's a very interesting case :D
3:40 PM
@KorvinStarmast alternatively lots of diamonds are worth 5000gp+ because of adventurer induced scarcity
@KorvinStarmast Which (if we ignore the sidenote on how travel shouldn't work the way it did in medieval times), again, makes it a matter of money.
@lisardggY there was no mass transit then, so money may not even enter into it. Can you get to that cleric's location in time? For many people, the answer is no.
@AncientSwordRage Oh, I'm not going to touch the whole "diamond worth X GP" question in view of money being a social construct subject to laws of inflation, supply and demand, or simply devaluation of currency.
@AncientSwordRage No, D&D is not an economics emulator, so let's not go there.
GP are game tokens, have always been.
i think that's just a riff on the real-world diamond situation
3:43 PM
The discussion I brought my quote from was exactly about that - how you shouldn't examine D&D and its campaign settings too closely, and certainly not from a simulationist point of view. The problem is that even without a simulationist view, you end up with the PCs walking around with access to privilege that no-one around them does.
The real world diamond situation is something I am not going to touch either ... but I will say that industrual grade diamonds are hella useful for fine tolerance grinding and machining
@KorvinStarmast Oh I agree it's not worth getting into
Oh, sure, they're very useful!
There's always teleportation circle to the nearest cleric
> Many major temples, guilds, and other important places have permanent teleportation circles inscribed somewhere within their confines.
@lisardggY Yes indeed, and they should also because they are the Main Characters in the Story.
@AncientSwordRage Always? No. Maybe in a high magic setting ....
3:44 PM
It's easy to think of adventurers as being social outcasts, maybe poor travellers staying in village inns and such, but when you intersect game mechanics with society, you end up with things like the innkeeper saying how terrible last year's draught was and people starving for lack of clean water, and PCs are, like, dude, it's a first level spell.
@lisardggY Yeah, lots of little incongruities like that. I remember a friend made some cash by (as we spent a week recovering from battle and wounds) casting Continual Light spells for a town on 10' poles. Yes, street lights. 😁
"It's one crop, Michael. How much could it cost, one spell slot?"
AD&D 1e/OD&D hybrid campaign ....
@KorvinStarmast It's infinite range though, right?
Ah, I think Continual Light was the first time, back in 2e, that I stopped and said "wait, I use a renewable resource to create a permanent resource? That... that feels wrong".
3:46 PM
Otherwise Word Of Recall (6th level)
I think Homestuck had a very interesting take on Adventure resurrection. In the early "game", players would each have one opportunity to be revived by a kiss. Afterwards, when they ascended to "God Tier", they could only truly die if their death was Heroic or Just.
Oh, yeah, that is a cool take
@AncientSwordRage I'd need to check the books; a permanent one takes a year to cast and immediately creates an infiltration risk. I think the codes/passwords would be "close hold"
Not just anyone gets to use them.
> As you cast the spell, you draw a 10-foot-diameter circle on the ground inscribed with sigils that link your location to a permanent teleportation circle of your choice whose sigil sequence you know and that is on the same plane of existence as you.
When you learn the spell, you learn two such locations
@Axoren Ooh, I like that. AD&D was a bit grittier. So, you paid a cleric to cast raise dead? Cool, now roll percentile dice and see if you are raised, or, if roll is missed, you now roll up a new character."
3:50 PM
so you can be 'in the field', and could 'port to a location you've never been to to find a cleric to save your friend
As I think I said in that other discussion, I think those things worked better in AD&D and earlier because the system was less streamlined, so it never really gave the feeling of trying to give you a silver-bullet solution to "how the world works". Just a bunch of rules to do things that adventurers wanted to do.
@AncientSwordRage We are back to who knows / has that spell who isn't a 13th level wizard? Nobody. It's massively restricted access, like flying on the Concorde was back when it was flying.
@KorvinStarmast that spell is open to a few classes though
@lisardggY missing that roll was what put one of my PCs into the "Chronicles of the Fallen" for that campaign.
was that a previous conversation I wasn't in/forgotten?
3:52 PM
@AncientSwordRage If you are not an adventurer, not access at all, right? ;)
@KorvinStarmast Masefield's Sea Fever. "All I ask is a tall ship and a start to steer her by...."
@KorvinStarmast oh right that was the thing
that's my adventurer bias showing
@nitsua60 Yep, it's another of the top three for my nautical poems ...
@AncientSwordRage we may all have a bit of that, what with all of the adventurers we have played ....
The problem is that D&D is really bad modeling people with power who aren't adventurers, or at least have levels of adventuring classes.
3e invented the really weird concept of "NPC Class" for that, didn't they?
1e was a big ol' mess of mixing "class levels" with "social class and renown", and sometimes "position on the formal social hierarchy".
@lisardggY Indeed; but the 5e NPCs have some comparable abilty. Not 3e ish enough to comment on that. Since OD&D equated Lord/Priest/High Priest/Wizard with those in power in their local areas, that kind makes sense in the original game .... you are right, it's lost a bit of that.
A lot more like comic book action heroes now ....
3:57 PM
IIRC, in 1e a druid's level was tied to his rank in the druid's circle, and after certain level you had to pass tests, or even challenge an existing high-level druid to advance.
@lisardggY correct
Monks had to fight other monks to get to level 6 and beyond
But, as I said, it didn't bother me that druids had one set of rules for advancement while fighters, for instance, didn't (and let's not even touch the topic of 1e bards), because, well, those were the rules for druids, and those were the rules for fighters.
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