TRPG General Chat

3:04 PM

@Sos I think the point is that, if a character is invested in their character they may not want them to die even if they know ressurection is easy. The Alternative is to let them 'lose' but with some ther cost

MikeQ

You can still have a risk and thrill, without the risk being the character's story ending (or the player sitting out the rest of the session)

As a somewhat tangential anecdote, I once had a GM who imposed that players had to leave the campaign if their character died (and we were regularly facing surprise save-or-die effects with high DCs), because he couldn't justify it in-universe. It was more stressful than "thrilling".

Rubiksmoose

@MikeQ Whaaaaaaat?

I would have told the DM that if they didn't like DMing that much they should just let someone else do it....

Medix2

I once had a campaign where every time you critically failed you had to remove a block from a Jenga tower and if you toppled it, your character died; that campaign was just lots of weird things like that but it was very fun

Rubiksmoose

(with the assumption that anybody who would be willing to sacrifice an entire D&D group to attempt to raise the stakes really didn't care about what they were doing)

MikeQ

(This was a very problematic GM who often did the sort of things that would warrant safety tools. Also we didn't have safety tools because they weren't part of the official game rules.)

Rubiksmoose

3:11 PM

@Medix2 Ah like from Dread!

Personally, I find death a pretty boring stake. Most of the games I play now don't even have it as a plausible option.

Medix2

@Rubiksmoose Yup, the campaign had a lot of interesting other things like IRL scavenger hunts and events to accomplish tasks. The jenga thing definitely wasn't the best thing the GM did that campaign, but it made for fun stories

Rubiksmoose

3:23 PM

Ugh, my re-revisit of the system editing policy just hit 2500 views. sigh

I mean great that so many people are looking. Not great that so many people have had issues that we have to look :-/

vicky_molokh- unsilence Monica

I'm ambivalent about death as a stake. On one hand, it leaves loose ends and stops storylines. So I would rather not have it nominally dangling over the PCs' heads every scene. On the other, if a campaign engaging in highly contrived excuses to ensure death never actually happens despite nominally being on the table as far as the PCs (not players) are concerned, this makes the campaign have a disappointing Hollywoodian 'yeah right' taste that is destructive for willing suspension of disbelief.

Someone_Evil

@Rubiksmoose The bulk of those was during featuring, no?

MikeQ

Well, the idea is that some other consequence or complication would happen. If there are no consequences whatsoever, then yes the player choices and risks would feel less impactful.

Someone_Evil

Not that there's a way to check, but IIRC it was showing 2k views at the end of that

Rubiksmoose

@Someone_Evil Presumably.

Medix2

3:29 PM

@Someone_Evil There's no way to check? Wow

@Rubiksmoose I'm probably 100 of those...

Rubiksmoose

heh. I may be even more than that lol

Sos

@Medix2 what sort of activities did you do during off-time?

Medix2

@Sos Probably almost exclusively video games, school, piano, and math

doppelgreener

@BESW There's a problem I've run into with Brainstorming that I'm not sure how to navigate. We'll go through the steps of producing clues but, when it comes time to formulate the theory, the player chosen appears to have come into the brainstorm with a particular outcome in mind, and simply gone with that. The theory they express doesn't therefore arise from the clues, or match them cleanly, or may even ignore one or two.

Sos

@Medix2 ah no, ahah sorry for not being clear. I meant if your GM was sending you any activities to do off-time that would work towards your game

doppelgreener

3:38 PM

I theorise that's best navigated by having the player keep it simple, and checking that the players feel their clues are represented, but I'm not sure the textual guidance anticipates this scenario.

Bardic Wizard

@BESW Grim randomly showed up on my morning walk this morning and demanded I give them doggie cuddles. You have made a very addicting game.

3

Medix2

@Sos Oh yeah it was scavenger hunts, decoding musical motifs, camp-style games like balancing things and co-operative events, placing a very specific order at a local restaurant, uhhhh, solving a treasure map, and other stuff I'll eventually remember

KorvinStarmast

4:05 PM

@nitsua60 It isn't, but it seems to me to be attracting quite a bit of noise again ... but that's maybe due to my lens

Someone_Evil

4:22 PM

@Medix2 yeah, pretty sure view count isn't stored per question over time. We have question totals and site views over time, but no more than that

Thomas Markov

4:36 PM

On this question about initiative and jack of all trades, would it be appropriate to edit in the sage advice ruling that answers exactly this question?

Or should I just add another answer?

NautArch

@ThomasMarkov You can add it, but i'm honestly not sure it's necessary.

The rules do support the top answer as a standalone.

And V2Blast commented on the other answer to add it, but they have chosen not to.

Someone_Evil

You could suggest it as additional support to be added to the answer (where it isn't suggested already). That's good use of a comment

KorvinStarmast

4:52 PM

@Sos here is a thought. a silver dragon was polymorphed into a white dragon (True Polymorph, concentrated on for an hour) while asleep by an evil (Someone/something) and once the white dragon is dropped to 0 HP, it reverts to the silver dragon it originally was. Not sure if that's a pure RAW approach, but narratively it might achieve what you are looking for.

Thomas Markov

alright, Ive got one for you guys

Can you cast true polymorph on yourself to polymorph yourself into yourself to effectively double your hitpoints?

NautArch

@ThomasMarkov raw maybe not. PCs don't have CRs.

Thomas Markov

"or level if the target doesnt have a challenge rating"

KorvinStarmast

@BESW I read one of those stories when I was in, like, 5th grade. There was a were-buzzard whom he hit with that guitar ... or who hit him while he tried to shield himself with a guitar ... a great short story.

HellSaint

@ThomasMarkov it would be a very bad version of "yourself"

> The creature is limited in the Actions it can perform by the Nature of its new form, and it can't speak, cast Spells, or take any other action that requires hands or Speech unless its new form is capable of such Actions.

> The target's gear melds into the new form. The creature can't activate, use, wield, or otherwise benefit from any of its Equipment.

So you become yourself, but you are a 17th level spellcaster (since you are casting True Poly, I guess) that now can't cast spells.

Oh nevermind, "unless the new form is capable of such actions"

Hm

Thomas Markov

4:59 PM

(1) Get naked
(2) *True polymorph*
(3) Get dressed

HellSaint

still I guess any equipment would diisappear?

Thomas Markov

take it off before casting lol

Here is a question and answer

HellSaint

Hm, I guess the answer from Marq has a point

You possibly can true polymorph into a 17th level character but not necessarily yours

so maybe their spell list sucks lul

Thomas Markov

So a 20th level character with true polymorph could theoretically choose a new 20th level build to play each session.

HellSaint

Except the person choosing the build is the DM

Not the player

Thomas Markov

5:05 PM

Why?

HellSaint

Because you, as the player, choose "a kind of creature"

so you choose "a 20th level fighter" or something

but since there is no 20th level fighter in the MM, the DM is the ones who is going to define what a 20th level fighter is

KorvinStarmast

Aha, it was "Oh, Ugly Bird" ...

NautArch

5:20 PM

So...Avernus is a weird campaign. DM just told me about the mechanic around becoming evil and that seems problematic.

Thomas Markov

Havent played or read it.

NautArch

It's problematic for my character who is trying to move away from the Evil that his species is. If I just roll poorly one day and become evil, that seems like a bummer.

Mark Wells

@NautArch Does a "roll to become evil" mechanic ever really work?

NautArch

@MarkWells i dunno. I don't even know how to RP it.

Thomas Markov

What, is the DM going to start telling you "you cant make that choice"? That DM can go to Avernus if he wants to mess with player agency like that.

NautArch

5:24 PM

@ThomasMarkov yeah, it's weird!

And apparently we do have an evil character in our party which i'm also concerned about.

Thomas Markov

Im gonna start saying "you can go to avernus" to people that annoy me.

MikeQ

Would it be possible to have an evil "flavor" but not make choices differently? Like, you start referring to your friends as "minions", and say that any conventionally good choice is just part of your sinister plan.

Yuuki

Just do things normally and flair it with "evilly".

Like, I drank a cup of tea evilly.

Thomas Markov

@MikeQ so just be a jerk who still makes morally good choices?

MikeQ

(The fact that D&D's pretense is to have "good" characters go on a murder spree should really raise the question of whether good/evil has any bearing on playstyle or character choice.)

Thomas Markov

5:26 PM

@Yuuki "This is the worse tea Ive ever had. Druid, make me more of this."

Carcer

@NautArch what mechanic is that?

MikeQ

"I'm not evil. I'm just aligned that way."

NautArch

@Carcer pervasive evil?

There's another one above it where any travel greater than hour also gives you exhaustion?

MikeQ

@Yuuki So if the character turns evil, they grow a goatee, but nothing else changes

Carcer

ah

NautArch

5:29 PM

@Carcer And yeah, it looks like being in Avernus means you always have some level of exhaustion, too.

MikeQ

But yeah, there really shouldn't be a built-in mechanic that breaks party cohesion. Would be best to either ignore it or adapt it into something more workable for the group. At the very least, they should discuss what "evil" means for a player character.

NautArch

which sounds...not fun.

Yuuki

@NautArch man, imagine living in the southwest us

Carcer

well, those are optional rules, and they're not specific to that campaign: pervasive evil is an optional rule originally given in the DMG's description of the Nine Hells.

Mark Wells

@MikeQ speaking of that I'm curious if the Alexandrian remix addresses this

vicky_molokh- unsilence Monica

5:34 PM

@MikeQ And bid everyone dark greetings at the mofference.

kviiri

5:45 PM

@Carcer I disagree with optionality being an excuse

Mark Wells

@kviiri Yeah, it's not clear how this was ever expected to work for anyone, so why is it even a suggested rule?

kviiri

Exactly. If something can be foreseen to cause trouble around the table, my basic quality check would be to have the book include some sort of treatment on how it's expected to play out, how possible issues around it could be avoided or mitigated

NautArch

DM didn't respond great: "The good thing about modules is they are play tested and this one has very solid reviews"

kviiri

Falling back to "optionality" just means "it's your GM's fault if it doesn't work"

Mark Wells

I mean, all rules are optional.

kviiri

5:50 PM

@MarkWells some say even playing the game is

@NautArch They should pursue a career in politics!

NautArch

@kviiri they kind of already are.

kviiri

@NautArch ow

NautArch

yep

Mark Wells

So if it's a major theme for your character that they're trying to resist the lure of Evil, but the DM insists on using the "roll to become evil" mechanic, the simplest solution is to just ignore the result entirely. There's no in-character reason for you to start kicking puppies so you're not doing it.

NautArch

@MarkWells yeah, that's where i'm at. I'm trying to discourage the mechanic, though.

i'm also trying to encourage him to talk with the player who wants to be evil.

and that may not be a great thing

MikeQ

6:07 PM

As a possible alternative, they could compromise and come up with a table agreement of what it means for a PC to be evil, and what an evil PC can and can't do. Particularly in terms of boundaries and safety stuff.

Mark Wells

Now, if you want a mechanic for representing the power of Hell turning you evil, I'd suggest these alternative XP systems.

Like, if you get corrupted, you switch to the "cultists of Khorne" XP table

NautArch

Not sure that works with milestone levelling

BUt I think i've challenged him as DM enough today.

KorvinStarmast

@MikeQ you have to grow a mustache and twiddle it with some frequency.

@MikeQ The published adventures all seem to have this theme of "good guys trying to undo this evil plot" though in 5e.

@MikeQ Looks in mirror, notices a goatee Darnit, did I turn evil overnight?

Mark Wells

6:53 PM

@KorvinStarmast That's the nature of the publishing model, yeah? The lowest common denominator for PC motivations is "be generally heroic", so the easiest story to set up is "here's an evil plot, go undo it."

MikeQ

Right, so as long as the PCs kill their way through the intended villains, then what is the impact of PC alignment on the story? And what would be the impact of changing it?

KorvinStarmast

@MarkWells Yes, which is where one wonders where the "it's all about murderhobos" meme comes from.

Mark Wells

@KorvinStarmast (A) from an older paradigm where the lowest common denominator was "get treasure" and the story structure was "here's a treasure, go steal it"

KorvinStarmast

@MikeQ That's an interesting question, since they took the teeth out of alignment mechanical consequences for the most part. (Which I appreciate, given the mess the two axis model had become ...)

Mark Wells

(B) from the simplified "stop the evil plot" story discouraging players from engaging too much with the world, leading to all other characters being either necessary for stopping the evil plot or completely expendable

KorvinStarmast

6:56 PM

@MarkWells "The acme of skill is to win the war without fighting" (Sun Tzu) has a parallel in original D&D that was roughly "the acme of skill is to rob the magical gew gaw from the wizard's tower without having to fight him" or "to find the treasure while bypassing most of the monsters" - 1 GP for an XP was a pretty strong motivation to stay alive and not have to fight ...

@MarkWells reducto absurdum noted - the published adventures allow a lot of "fill in the blanks" space for any GM to add more or, as I am trying to to, drop a plot hook for the next adventure ... and I for one like how the Salt Marsh book has a series of loosely related (maritime) adventures and also a number of other NPC personalities that can be used as a pivot point for one offs or longer DM "fill in the missing space" stuff.

But I will say that the second adventure has an RP heavy structure that is somewhat out of place in the location where it is all supposed to happen ...

Mark Wells

@KorvinStarmast I will concede that point, but suggest that actual play can sometimes be a reductio ad absurdum also :)

KorvinStarmast

@MarkWells You are so right. Two of the guys in my Thursday's group are more murder hobo than the rest, by inclination and because that's how they have fun. We have figured out how to fold that in with the others who are a bit more RP loving.

Carcer

"Ah, I see you have brought... an owlbear?" "Yes, it is for your friends to fight while we discuss business." "Capital, capital."

KorvinStarmast

7:11 PM

@Carcer or, we just send them to the bar and they have a brawl if needed; we have a party RoE that includes "do not burn down the bar" since all of the people in the party like to have beers. Burning down the bar reduces beer availability. It works out most of the time. Our last session we made some coin ... I used skywrite to advertise our bard's presence at the bar. He gave an impromptu concert and DM rolled up a nice number

... for the pretty lady (my warlock) passing the hat around to the patrons as the evening progressed ..

(Granted, it was the first day of the Spring 'market days' so we timed that while people were flush ...)

Bardic Wizard

8:58 PM

Hello people who are probably nicer than my real world friends this afternoon

Someone_Evil

I mean "afternoon" is relative, but hello never the less

Mark Wells

@BardicWizard To be fair to your real world friends, the real world's moderators are pretty lax about the "be nice" rule.

Someone_Evil

Not sure how I feel about that statement...

Bardic Wizard

A friend called me short today. It’s not my fault I can’t grow more

that’s why I’m frustrated.

Someone_Evil

Because I have no way of knowing I'll just assume you're actually moderately tall. Does that help?

Bardic Wizard

9:13 PM

I’m 5’3”

The friend is over 5’10 and will probably end up at least 6’ tall.

Someone_Evil

That doesn't actually help me very much, so I'll go assuming you're tall, and they're tall enough to get repetitive comments regarding the local climate

MikeQ

Seems like an odd thing to cause insult.

Bardic Wizard

@MikeQ you haven’t met my friend. It wasn’t meant as an insult but it was a reminder that as soon as we’re allowed to hug, he’ll go back to resting his elbow on my head. (although I know this friend well enough that I can be fairly certain that wasn’t intended)

Carcer

@BardicWizard install some spikes on top of your head (maybe use some very powerful hairstyling), that should dissuade him from resting there

kviiri

I've definitely been in the nasty end of "joking about people's height" and having learned from my mistakes, I'm pretty confident that it can be very hurtful

MikeQ

9:23 PM

If the person's joking (and not intending to cause hurt feelings), then generally it's ok to joke back in a similar manner, if that's how the relationship works

If the person is saying it maliciously, then you can fault them for lack of creativity

Bardic Wizard

It was a joke.

Carcer

you don't have to be saying it maliciously for it to hurt, though

MikeQ

True. And among friends, it's fair to insist that certain statements and/or personal traits are off-limits.

Carcer

it's one of those subjects where I can easily see it gets hurtful after a while, not immediately, but once it's established as an acceptable joke to begin with it's become hard to complain

Bardic Wizard

Meh, its fine now. I’m just also in a less than good mood for other reasons

so it hit harder than usual

Carcer

9:27 PM

yeah, that doesn't help either.

MikeQ

9:41 PM

In unrelated news, I recently tested out an interesting D&D5 character build: Changeling with the Actor feat and Detect Thoughts. Can potentially bypass any mundane social encounter.

Bardic Wizard

@MikeQ how’d it do?

MikeQ

It was a playtest one-shot. By disguising as various NPCs we encountered, the character helped the party into a mansion and get past staff without raising alarm. Was also a 11th level sorcerer, but amazingly the race+feat combination proved more useful than the actual class features.

MikeQ

10:03 PM

@BardicWizard The concept is especially fun if you enjoy acting as different characters

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Bardic Wizard

10:32 PM

@MikeQ oh yes I do... little late to change the sorcerer (the one Misty Hook is designed for, who has at least 7 secret identities) to be a changeling, unfortunately

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Thomas Markov

10:49 PM

@Someone_Evil I missed detect thoughts on my initial posting

BESW

@BardicWizard I hope that's okay! Should I include an extra ritual?

@doppelgreener Yeah, that's a, hole? in the system that I've noticed too. I wonder if using L*vecraftesque's "write down your new theory after every clue" model would be worth the extra time.

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Someone_Evil

Because there is a lot of good stack knowledge in here and I know not everyone reads our meta in that much detail: Is there a good write-up about the stack and "practices vs. policies" anywhere?

It feels like the kind of thing I should know about, but I can't recall being linked one at any point, and I think it'd be good to at least try to tell new users about it (prior to their first meta q which teaches it)

Bardic Wizard

@BESW it was good. I was just surprised bc they sort of showed up out of nowhere while I was running, bounding next to me and demanding cuddles until I hugged them (and a neighbor noticed me hugging the air and gave me the Look, but that’s not a problem). It actually made my day about a thousand times better.

BESW

Aw, I'm glad.

KorvinStarmast

11:24 PM

@MikeQ Yeah, I saw the whole thing. Worked like a charm.

@Someone_Evil our stack or "The Stack" pile in general?

If the latter, suggest you ask on Meta SE, or maybe via your mod only chat channel.

Someone_Evil

@KorvinStarmast Yes? Either?

KorvinStarmast

@Someone_Evil As you have discovered, policy is a moving target as mods come and go. That makes sense in a place where community moderation is a thing, and where mods are volunteers. The FAQ list here is a good place to start discerning, or you can do as I did a while back and read the first 250 posts ever made on RPGSE meta.

Someone_Evil

I'm not asking for my own sake, but if there were a good write-up say on the blog, it would save some trouble/be a good starting point, but if this room doesn't know of one then it's probably not worth digging for

KorvinStarmast

@Someone_Evil "The blog" would be the SO blog, right?

Someone_Evil

Yes, I don't know of any other contextually relevant ones. (Be Nice and GS/BS usually linked to it IIRC, so it might have something on this too. But I didn't go looking)

@KorvinStarmast This is the context for me asking about it btw

KorvinStarmast

11:32 PM

@Someone_Evil Pearls over sand is of value in understanding core principles of Stackland - like them or not - but I ask you this: you want pre Atwood or post Atwood?

Someone_Evil

I want applicable to current RPG.SE and written for on-boarding new users. I'm perfectly happy with us having to write our own

KorvinStarmast

@Someone_Evil Then prepare to be happy, and start writing. 8^D

that's my suggestion anyway

Someone_Evil

Cheers! It'll be an interesting exercise

KorvinStarmast

I'd offer to help, maybe, but at the moment, the idea of writing such a document does not appeal to me in the last. Work stuff has my mind recoiling at the very thought.

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