TRPG General Chat

12:00 AM

8

Q: How should I deal with a player who wants to circumvent combat when the rest of the party wants to fight?

I'm a very new DM running a homebrew campaign for a couple of friends. One of my players, who is by far the most experienced, plays a bard who is definitely optimised for roleplay, and that seems to be the part of the game she enjoys the most. This is fine, of course, but lately I think it's been...

KorvinStarmast

@BESW I can get on board with this comment. Now that research is easier, I agree that one would hope for a bit more effort to be put in.

Someone_Evil

I don't think malice is the accusation made. Rather negligence, which is not as bad

HellSaint

We are currently offline for maintenance

what

:(

Someone_Evil

@HellSaint Who are?

Medix2

The site

HellSaint

12:01 AM

RPG.se, it seems, or at least it's telling me that.

We're back!

5 seconds maintenance!

Medix2

You were one of the lucky ones who got to witness the maintenance message XD

MikeQ

Maintenance was performed as a bonus action

KorvinStarmast

@Someone_Evil the tone of that entire discussion was so negative that it left that impression.

BESW

12:14 AM

Kickstarter: Slayers by Spencer Campbell is a tabletop RPG of mercenaries and monster hunters for hire. Known by locals as Slayers, players wander a haunted city, cursed long ago to expand towards the horizon forever. Slayers help clean out the monsters that infest the alleyways and shadows, and those that the city seems to be manifesting on its own.

HellSaint

I wrote "Spell" and "Resistance" as tags and both times I missed the fact that there is a tag called spell-resistance. Okay.

Someone_Evil

You're welcome :)

NautArch

@HellSaint I know it's probably not, but the question seems like it's going to be opinion-based :)

HellSaint

@NautArch We have a lot of balance questions around here, I fail to see how it is opinion based

But if the community thinks so, sure

NautArch

I'm currently playing a yuan-ti and after 4 sessions, I finally got a chance to make a save against magic :) And in another, I got the poison immunity to save me.

@HellSaint oh, no. I don't think it really is.

But there will be some folks who think it's okay and others who don't - both who will have good reasons.

But that's with many assessment type questions.

Someone_Evil

12:21 AM

I wonder if the gnome trait is useful as a comparison point

HellSaint

@NautArch exactly. I can see it being a life saver once every 4 levels of encounters...

NautArch

I think the bigger issue with the yuan-ti is magic resistance AND poison immunity

plus suggestion 1/day

HellSaint

But unless your adventure is about killing Liches, I don't see it coming up frequently enough to be broken

NautArch

But as a whole, getting advantage on every magic save is still fairly cool.

Doesn't always work, though. Failed two saves against hellish rebuke last session.

4 rolls, DC 13.

+2 dex

womp womp

Just re-read the section of module i'm about to run and realized that a deal is made with the players. And then it's reneged on later. That'll be fun.

HellSaint

12:45 AM

@NautArch yeah and then there is that: it's just advantage

it's not "you instantly succeed"

The Oracle

0

Q: Are these "history-of-gaming" questions designer-reasons?

We got a few questions that ask for the origin of a monster or name, usually, "why does it differ from the usual most common thing with the same name?" As examples Why is the D&D gorgon a metal bull? Why do we call the class "Barbarians" instead of "Berserks" or "Berserkers"? What inspired the D&...

discussion designer-reasons

Ben

1:09 AM

Morning all

@Ben Morning

How are we all today

@Ben molto bene

Very good :D

Which is better than being spicy pasta

Ben

1:11 AM

This is accurate

linksassin

@Ben Eh, not too bad.

Ben

I've been working on a DnD variation of the Donkey Kong Country villain King/Capt/Dr K. Rool

@linksassin that's good. Could be worse :D

King K. Rupt. Large Lizardman with a crest of golden horns/spines on his head

And I've also come up with an idea for a rival "kingdom" run by "Kween K. Reep"

Lol

HellSaint

morning? w00t

it's 9 PM :P

MikeQ

The upside down uses a different time zone than the rest of the world

(as we know, there are two time zones. north and south.)

Ben

1:38 AM

@MikeQ Everywhere else, and Australia :P

Oh, @Ash following our conversations about Barbs yesterday - they're not all bad. In fact they're generally quite fabulous

Nov 10 '17 at 3:18, by Ben

@BESW I am now imaging "It's raining men" just with screaming barbarians slamming down on the traffic of the San Francisco Bridge

And one of our PCs from a DnD game has made it into the DM's "PC Hall of Fame"; Gaston, the Bear-Hugger.

His favorite activities involved leaping at things and hugging them vigorously.

GcL

@Ben The grapple of friendship

Ben

Nooooo... ooone HUGS like Gaston
No one LOVES like Gaston

No one wears their affection on their SLEEVE like Gaoston!

GcL

2:03 AM

I thought he was having cholesterol issues from consuming two dozen eggs a day.

@Ben I'm hacking on some FoundryVTT stuff for auto-generating diablo style dungeons Would you be interested in play testing that?

Ben

Cholesterol was the least of his issues. He was very much a "leap without looking" type. Generally off cliffs.

@GcL Sure!

A. B.

I still think barbarian-based mad scientists would have worked.

Sounds fun

GcL

Excellent. If you get a peculiar email about being registered for a contrapaganza service, that's from me.

Ben

@GcL I always squint suspiciously at my emails. Just fyi

:P

GcL

That's why it's a heads up. I don't know if you check the provenance of domains.

Ben

2:16 AM

👍

MikeQ

If I ever run D&D again, I'd enforce the idea that "barbarian" is descriptive of fighting style, and not indicative of background or culture. That's how the other classes work anyway.

GcL

Our barbarian was very formal.

Ben

Firefly Cast: Mal is the Rogue, Zoe is the Fighter, Jayne is the Barb.

Very little difference between how the characters behave or their values (within the general society), but they all fight very differently.

MikeQ

and River is the DMPC

Ben

@MikeQ Yes XD

nitsua60

2:45 AM

@MikeQ I've found that many of these sorts of issues automatically get addressed when campaigns/sessions-zero start with the default assumption that nothing's in, rather than the assumption that everything's in.

That's to say, if we start off saying "okay, what classes?" And you volunteer "barbarian!" We right then have a conversation as a group on the topic "what is a barbarian, anyway? What are they going to be in our world? What sort of culture do they fit into? What sort of stories are we going to tell if we're them?"

I'm not saying it solves all problems--or any, honestly--but at least it keeps out the ones you didn't invite in =)

Hot RPG Questions

1

Q: Divine Soul. Is it possible to quickened fireball as bonus action + cast cantrip + bonus action a spiritual weapon attack?

So I started playing like a month ago and the DM was nice enough to create a char for me and write me into the story. I've never played D&D before but told him I wanted to glass cannon blow things up. So he made me a divine soul sorcerer at level 13. My Metamagics are Twinned, Quickened, and Care...

dnd-5e spellcasting bonus-action

MikeQ

The goal would be to deter players from assuming class stereotypes, or treating each other based on class stereotypes

e.g. "You're the barbarian, and barbarians are dumb, so you can't look at the book of fun secrets" or "You're the rogue, so we can't trust you with any loot". Or like that user from a few weeks (months?) back whose group got upset at them because their cleric didn't behave according to puritanical stereotypes.

HellSaint

@MikeQ The rogue of my CoS campaign is a Lawful Good Rogue that was raised by his grandmother.

That's it. Let it sink in.

Ben

Barbs are STR builds, Rouges Are Dex Builds, Fighters are Quality builds :P

BESW

And hopefully eventually the group starts to notice that some cultural assumptions are built into the mechanics of those classes, like a barbarian's skill options.

HellSaint

2:54 AM

On the other hand, we did have previous editions cof3ecof where a Paladin had to be lawful good...

linksassin

@Ben I would strongly dispute that. They have very different values.

A. B.

3:22 AM

screams

MikeQ

Shhh keep it down, this is a library

GcL

@nitsua60 Is "Conan" an acceptable response?

@Ben I liked that the player had set of honor rules that exceeded the complexity of the etiquette of the society they found themselves in. Of course, no to be outdone the aristocracy that she encountered tried to follow along as best they could. It led to the character having the upper hand in many situations and was entertaining story telling.

@Ben The barbs I've played with were usually constitution builds.

Ben

@GcL technically all builds are con builds :P

GcL

Well few go out of their way to max out Con, but barbs tend to go that direction as it helps their AC

Also tough adds 1 to con and a bunch of HP

I liked the honor barbarian who was portrayed as having a very strict honor code of the strongest protect anyone smaller or weaker than themselves. Then letting the wizard and warlock protect them in the apropos situations as they had the wisdom to recognize when they were the weakest. It made for a very entertaining group.

A gnome warlock getting up in the grill of an extra-planar aberration and making a very persuasive argument about the nature of reality that would be enforced upon them should they proceed with entering the prime material plane at this particular juncture was a highly engaging bit of story telling.

With the barbarian in the background nodding along as they knew this was the bread and butter of another character instead of trying to out macho the situation.

Ben

3:41 AM

I would definitely get on board with that :D

Caps fail lol

GcL

I was particularly entertained by the character recognizing domain knowledge flexing on the same level as physical flexing. It was entertaining to all involved.

@Ben How many players do you expect to be running through a corruption dungeon?

The context I was thinking about was a single paragon descending into the madness, but 5e is usually multiple players

Ben

@GcL The Diablo Dungeon?

GcL

Yes

Ben

3-5

GcL

So 3-5 players dealing with their characters having reactions to corruption.

Ben

3:52 AM

Yeah

nitsua60

@GcL Of course! As long as it's acceptable to the group.

GcL

4:06 AM

@nitsua60 Do you ask similar questions for the other classes?

nitsua60

Of course. Every class. Every race. Schools of magic. Equipment. Monster types. Gods--do they even exist? Planes?

GcL

@nitsua60 So, someone says they're doing dwarven fighter. What questions follow that?

nitsua60

That's not quite it. You *can't* say "I'm a dwarven fighter" until we've all said "yup, there's dwarves. And Gnomes. And Tabaxi." [and nothing else! We've had some conversation about what the deal is with these being the races, and how they relate, and what generalities we expect of each race.]
And we've said "yup, there's fighters. And Rangers. And Warlocks. And Thieves." [and nothing else! We've had some conversation about why *that* is.]
*Then* you can say "okay, I'm'a be a dwarven fighter."

At that point we all have a shared context for what that entails. Not just each of us coming to it with whatever set of experiences/preconceptions we have.

GcL

@nitsua60 Have you had groups that said no fighters or no dwarves?

nitsua60

Sure.

Well, not quite.

I've had groups that haven't said "yes, fighters" or "yes, dwarves."

Ben

4:15 AM

We had a game where Humans didn't exist. The primary race was Tieflings

GcL

So it's a proposition and then the group votes?

nitsua60

It's a discussion.

GcL

As a player, how does one select their class and race?

A. B.

@Ben How did that come about, then?

nitsua60

Once all that ^^ collaborative world- and setting-building (and adventure expectations--we also discuss types of stories we want to try and play, and how we see sessions going) is done, then people go ahead and create characters.

Frankly, the opposite (which so many people do) seems utterly bizarre to me. I'm going to walk up to a table with a GM and before we've talked about whether we're playing at westerns or intrigue or Dirty Dozen I'm going to slap down a character sheet and say "I'm an Aasimar Bard"?

Ben

4:19 AM

The way I've done it is people decide what they want to do. Races, classes, etc. From there, we can choose to "eliminate" things - Humans don't, Monk monasteries/temples are rare after the war between the Monk clans and the Dragonborn, etc.

It could work in reverse as well

A. B.

I'd rather say I want my character to run into such and such a thing, and then see what happened. It seems a bit silly to decide in advance that such and such a type of storyline is going to happen.

GcL

@nitsua60 Okay. So you've all discussed the setting and stories... then someone decides on class and race. How does that go?

A. B.

@Ben I meant how in the setting did there come to be so many tieflings?

Ben

It was just world building. The Group/DM decided it.

nitsua60

@GcL "I'd like to be a dwarf fighter, then." "Cool. I'm going to be a dwarf warlock." "I'm going with gnome ranger."

A. B.

4:21 AM

I mean, IC why were there? Or did that never come up?

GcL

@nitsua60 So just state the class and race. What's the discussion that follows "I'd like to be a dwarf fighter" ?

A. B.

Wondering what kind of story would have that: it sounds an interestingly unusual one.

nitsua60

@GcL Probably not much. Aside from the usual "is anyone going to have healing?" "I'll grab goodberry, it'll be fine."

GcL

@nitsua60 What's the discussion that follows "I'm going to be a dwarf barbarian" ?

nitsua60

@GcL Same, probably. What're you getting at?

Ben

4:23 AM

@A.B. I can't remember the exact situation, but it was along that similar line - no-one chase a particular race/class, and so the Worldbuilding just removed an element (e.g "Humans are the largest population" and instead said "Tieflings are the largest Population")

GcL

I'm wondering how the discussion avoids "class stereotypes"

@nitsua60 Do you have the "what is a wizard" or "what is a fighter" conversation?

nitsua60

@GcL I don't think I said that it avoids it, just that they've at least been aired.

A. B.

@Ben Not a bad idea that. Often you get what is, for the setting, a weird and unusual selection of races and there's no explanation of what happened there, which is awkward.

nitsua60

2 hours ago, by nitsua60

I'm not saying it solves all problems--or any, honestly--but at least it keeps out the ones you didn't invite in =)

GcL

@nitsua60 Unless you're having that conversation with all classes and races, I don't get how it keeps out problems you didn't invite in.

I have a lot of assumptions about Valenar Elves, Mror Holds Dwarves, Mror Holds Orc, and Brelish Humans.

A. B.

4:27 AM

@nitsua60 Something in that. Sometimes you do look through the handbook and think "Oh, that looks as if it would be fun to try out", but more often a class or a race is interesting only in relation to how it's going to go with something else it's going to encounter, and if you don't know at all what you are going to encounter...

GcL

Similarly with adventuring wizards, academic wizards, and magewrights.

nitsua60

If our conversation (pre anyone "selecting" class/race) said "yup, barbarians are parts of uncivilized hordes, they don't get quality equipment, but they're fierce and reckless in battle," then we've still got some baggage. But we brought it in. Nobody sat down and thought "oh, 'barbarians' are actually as culturally advanced as the Romans who christened them thus, and I'm frustrated that others aren't playing them that way."

GcL

My questions about player characters are usually, "give three examples of characters & movies you think are examples of the character you'd like to play" mostly because we watch a lot of movies and I can write content to those themes.

Ben

@A.B. It can always be interesting to mix up the worldbuilding a bit. Like, yeah "D&D" says that "humans are the most common". But there's nothing to say that you can't mix things up. "Ok so you guys are a group of 4 humans. We'll have to discuss how you feel in a world dominated by a strong rivalry between Dragonborn and Dwarves; Humans are a rare sight."

GcL

@nitsua60 Do you talk about every race and class in your session 0?

nitsua60

4:30 AM

@GcL We did have that conversation about every class and race in the game we're playing. That's how they got into the game!

GcL

@nitsua60 What's your race list of conversation? is there a checklist?

For 5e D&D?

If you didn't talk about demons or devils in your session 0, are they allowed to show up?

Ben

If you covered every single aspect you'd be there forever

GcL

That's my expectation. Or at least have a standard list people could check off or note an objection.

A. B.

I think Nitsua's saying people suggest races they're interested in, and agree on which they're having and what they're like, and those are the only ones they have.

GcL

Some people might not like the Eberron depiction of X. Just list the depictions of all races in Eberron and let your players check the ones they'd like to alter.

nitsua60

4:34 AM

The "checklist" (off the top of my head, I'm not going to dig it out of binders right now) includes type of story we'd like to play, what tech level the setting's at, what societal organization is like, what races exist, what classes make sense, how much magic is in the world, do gods exist, and a bunch of other things.
Run down that list rapid-fire and see what people start throwing out.

A. B.

no need to discuss dwarves if nobody actually asked for dwarves.

nitsua60

^^

GcL

@nitsua60 Do lizardfolk or mushroom men usually show up?

@A.B. Unless dwarves are part of a story. If they are... then what?

MikeQ

What if you want to add something in later, but it wasn't part of the original list?

GcL

^

nitsua60

4:36 AM

@GcL There's no way for them to be part of the story if they're literally not part of the world.

@MikeQ Um, you talk to everyone about it?

A. B.

Yeah, I'm not sure how it would work with monsters. Are they not included in the "list the races"?

GcL

So you set out the limits of the world in terms of races and classes that can exist during session 0?

nitsua60

Haven't I said that a couple of times?

(As long as that's a plural 'you,' that is.)

A. B.

You'd have a very small selection of monsters if you had to clear each one with the players in advance individually. Though I suppose you could do general categories, like "there aren't demons in this world", "I wanna fight undead at some point".

nitsua60

Yeah, I'm pretty sure I mentioned "monster types" very early on.

MikeQ

4:39 AM

Personally I try to skip race lists during worldbuilding, because I don't like to define and divide my fantasy worlds by race, and I like to focus on stories other than racial divisions. So I just assume that anyone can exist, and the session 0 questions would focus more on actions and themes.

nitsua60

"This is a dragon-campaign." "There are no dragons in this world." "This is an undead campaign." Things like that go a long way to filtering the MM.

A. B.

You didn't, that I can find.

GcL

@nitsua60 That's an interesting way to go. I think that would be convenient. I just have a list of dozens of species that I plan to encounter, and that's before pulling in third party material when I'm too lazy to write everything myself.

MikeQ

@nitsua60 Ah, okay, discussing types of challenges could be useful. I was thinking more along the lines of character races.

nitsua60

@MikeQ We often rename the races, anyway. Two tribes/nations that live in the plains and one up in the hills cover a lot of ground.

33 mins ago, by nitsua60

Of course. Every class. Every race. Schools of magic. Equipment. Monster types. Gods--do they even exist? Planes?

GcL

4:41 AM

It seems like a lot of material to add to a session 0. Like, let's go over all the creature types of the world....

A. B.

Whoops, there you go. Well, it's a long conversation.

nitsua60

@GcL I don't think I'm communicating well. It's collaborative worldbuilding as part of session 0.

A. B.

It does. But I can see advantages to it, if you have the time.

GcL

For my players, I expect they'd look at a very long list and say... sure.. .except I hate X (where X is always whights)

@nitsua60 If lizardfolk aren't specifically mentioned in session 0, can they appear in your campaign?

nitsua60

You don't need to literally list every species of flora and fauna, and give them a 'yea' or 'nay' vote. When you say "this is set in the Badlands" or "this is set on tropical islands" that goes a long way.

GcL

4:44 AM

@nitsua60 Your players have an understanding of the creatures and races that go with those settings?

nitsua60

@GcL I need to know a lot more--like the whole session 0--to be able to answer whether that's a thing I'd drop without a hesitation, something I'd want to bring up with players, or a thing that I wouldn't even consider.

GcL

@nitsua60 Do you bring up species with players before they encounter them? and how so? E.g. "is it cool if you chat with dragons?" or "do dragons even exist in this world?"

A. B.

I think it's less "look at a very long list" and more "start with a blank sheet of paper and add things to it, and if you want to add them different from the way the thing with that name is in the PHB that's cool too".

nitsua60

@GcL Good night.

A. B.

Nitsua did actually say yes to that one already.

GcL

4:46 AM

Ciao

A. B.

In general, at least.

MikeQ

@GcL I suppose "the world" could refer to the scope of the campaign, not necessarily the entire plane

GcL

@MikeQ I concur. There exist things that aren't experienced by the players. By and large, those aren't relevant. Things that the players want to explore are priority, but also there are ancillary things to those settings.

A. B.

It would be interesting to be slightly vaguer about "race" than RPGs usually are. I mean, in most old fairy tales, there are not distinct, clearly documented species of supernatural beings. Dwarves, goblins, kobolds, same difference, variations on the same thing, at least for all the storyteller could tell.

GcL

I'd expect it to be onerous to have to get specific permission to permit every thing in a setting.

However, it might not be. There could be a good trick for elicting that.

MikeQ

4:49 AM

Logistically that does seem like a lot to cover. I can understand making smaller lists for things that are particularly common or rare in the given setting. e.g. it's a spooky horror campaign, so expect plenty of undead.

GcL

I just find it weird to ask about the barbarian class and not the other classes.

A. B.

It sounds terribly long-winded, unless Nitsua60's explanation is missing something. But it sounds fun and potentially useful in other ways, if you can find the time.

Not really, I think you ask about the barbarian class because you want to play a barbarian.

GcL

@MikeQ I concur. Sometimes people have neat shortcuts for covering large swathes of content.

@A.B. Do you ask similar questions about a fighter or wizard if you want to play those?

Himitsu_no_Yami

Question guys, what bounty reason (for another site but this chat is more active and friendly) would be best for a question that's like 4 years old and the only answer is completely wrong and talking about something unrelated? I figure it's best just to bounty and avoid the dupe flag from asking the question again but I need an answer on it

Ben

Bring attention?

MikeQ

4:52 AM

@GcL Ah, the barbarian is just an example. The broader issues are along the lines of not constraining character concepts to class stereotypes, and not imposing limitations on other players based on preexisting notions of the classes.

GcL

@Himitsu_no_Yami Ugh... that's tough. I'd say the reason is to get a modern functioning answer, but that's biased on technology stacks.

Himitsu_no_Yami

The answer was entirely wrong even when posted lol

GcL

@MikeQ I'd like to explore classes beyond their stereotypes as well, but what do you ask of a fighter?

A. B.

Barbarian's a particularly awkward example because the PHB does say a lot about them beyond what the mechanics demand, and the players might want to change it.

Himitsu_no_Yami

If it matters it's on Arqade

GcL

4:55 AM

Which is fine. But do you treat all classes the same? or are barbarian particularly in need of massaging or help?

What's arqade about?

Himitsu_no_Yami

Gaming

MikeQ

Arqade is the video games SE

GcL

Maybe bounty it as looking for an answer that works in practice?

MikeQ

@GcL And... kinda? Sure, some classes are more stereotyped than others. It may depend on the player group and what they're used to.

A. B.

Fighter doesn't say much beyond the mechanics, but I suppose it would be a good time to introduce things if you wanted to add them, to mention, for instance, that you want there to be an ancient order of knights errant based in the So and So Mountains that your character belongs to.

GcL

4:57 AM

@MikeQ I concur. I wouldn't expect equal treatment either. However, that might expose my implicit biases. A script or standard questionnaire would be useful to me.

Himitsu_no_Yami

I can see arguments for outdated, authoritative, canonical, or bring attention really

A. B.

Likewise, the PHB text for wizards says that maybe in your setting there are literal universities for wizards or maybe not, that would be the time to say if you have views about whether there should be or not.

MikeQ

I'm not entirely sure how to explain the goal here, but basically whenever someone tells another player "You can't do that because you're a [class/race]", I become slightly more dead inside

A. B.

I'd be inclined to go with the rule, "Class X is any character that can do things covered by the mechanics for Class X and that's all, and in the few places where the Player Handbook still says any more about what they have to be like, as opposed to just possibilities, you're allowed to ignore 'em".

Ben

Bounty Reasons and Post Notices

Jeff Atwood on September 23, 2011

It’s been a little over a year since our last improvement to the bounty system. Question bounties have been working well enough that we’re comfortable encouraging even more use of the bounty system. We used to limit people to one question bounty at a time, but now you can have up to three simultaneous question…

I would go with "Draw Attention" or "Improve Details"

GcL

5:04 AM

@MikeQ Which seems like a really weird statement to make. I'm more interested in a how does X do Y or X is a Y?

Ben

@A.B. They're more what you'd call guidelines, than actual rules

BESW

Bookmark Game Jam hosted by Diwata ng Manila. Bookmark Game Jam is a funny little idea because I wanted to make a micro-game that can fit in the size of a bookmark. That's really all there is to it.

GcL

@A.B. I concur with that. Let the mechanics do mechanics and let the players explain the how.

or why

Himitsu_no_Yami

@Ben that doesn't tell me any more than the page I'm putting the bounty on but after reading your follow-up message I'll go with draw attention

A. B.

Like, a Barbarian is someone who can enter a battle rage/trance/whatever that enhances their fighting abilities beyond what they normally are. If you want your character to be a High Elf who can do that because they were touched by the God of War, and the PHB says that by definition a Barbarian is someone from a primitive tribe, then hard luck to the PHB.

yep.

MikeQ

5:08 AM

Yes, that's sort of what I'm trying to say. Thanks for helping to articulate that.

A. B.

:-)

Himitsu_no_Yami

Possibly a silly question but do bounty descriptions support markdown or commonmark or whatever?

A. B.

5e seems to have mostly gone to some effort to remove mandatory definitions like that, but there's a few.

GcL

I liked this conversation. Very useful. Chat with you all later. Goodnight.

Ben

5:23 AM

@GcL Ciao!

@Himitsu_no_Yami like updating a bounty description?

Himitsu_no_Yami

@Ben adding a description for a bounty when I'm starting one. But I found that yes it does

Ben

Yeah, that's an option :)

@A.B. I had a Storm Barb Genasi

No wait... that was my storm barb minotaur.

Basically Cow Thor

Minotaurs are generally sea-faring folk and his "reason" for the class choice was that he was stranded on flotsam after a storm destroyed his ship, but the experience left a mark on him... he was able to tap into the power of the storm

The Oracle

7:47 AM

0

Q: Does editing in @User into a comment still pint that user?

Let's say I wanted to reply to someone's comment, but I forgot to add @user. If I submit the comment, then realise, edit the comment, add @user, then confirm the edit, does the user receive a ping at that point, or is the ping only registered on originally submitting the comment? Related (but my...

support comments notifications

linksassin

Does someone want to help us test a theory on ^ that meta? rpg.meta.stackexchange.com/q/10029/48759

LizWeir

can do!

@linksassin Posted a comment, then edited it to point at you.

linksassin

@LizWeir Excellent. Thanks. Can you confirm you didn't get a ping for my reply?

LizWeir

Yeah, no ping.

Want to edit an @ me in?

linksassin

@LizWeir Just done that. If you get a ping, then it's case closed.

LizWeir

8:00 AM

Yep, that pinged me!

linksassin

@LizWeir Thanks for your help. Though I am now curious about a follow up. What if I edit my @mention to a different user? What about if I then edit it back? Do they both get pinged? Does the ping get retracted?

LizWeir

feel free to test that! happy to have further testing pointed at me - I should get some work done but I'll try and keep an eye out

Hot RPG Questions

8:29 AM

8

Q: Is Magic Resistance broken in Player Characters?

So, every time some feature, item or whatever allows a player character to have Magic Resistance, people seem to go crazy about it. It happened when the Yuan-Ti was released as a playable race in VGM, it happened recently when the Satyr was announced for Theros, and it happened around here with t...

dnd-5e balance spell-resistance

BESW

@HotRPGQuestions Does 5e still have save-or-suck? Is save-or-suck still disproportionately tied to magical effects? If yes, then magic resistance will always be disproportionately desirable.

Miniman

@BESW Yes, yes, and yes.

BESW

8:46 AM

Camp Flying Moose for Girls of All Kinds by Alicia Furness is a PbtA game about teen girls at a summer camp filled with strange supernatural occurrences. Inspired by Lumberjanes, and my own experiences of summer camp, the game investigates mysteries, monsters, and teenage identity.

doppelgreener

9:40 AM

@KorvinStarmast not reading malice, just being frustrated at how bad the outcome is. also, being gamers first doesn't mean much: that just means they play games. i can be a gamer and also name mythological beings correctly.

AncientSwordRage

10:50 AM

@MikeQ "Do they at least have snakes for beards" <-Stealing this

Medix2

12:01 PM

Is this not a designer-intent question: "Why are Ghouls not proficient with their bite attacks"?

KorvinStarmast

12:19 PM

@doppelgreener pedantry as a habit has been enabled by the world wide web. before there was 'you can research anything' available to one and all, many people had passing familiarity with stuff that we can now dig into the details of. You are asking a bit much of the pre WoTC era publishers, but I do agree with you on the web enabled era folks. One can find out, so yeah, take the effort.

AncientSwordRage

@Medix2 I was thinking that

KorvinStarmast

I knew of the legends of Greek heroes, and I was confused by D&D's version of a gorgon as a bull. Bullfinch's Mythology was a standard high school text when I was a teenager.

Medix2

@KorvinStarmast It still is in some places

BESW

A Needle in a Gay Stack A bundle hosted by astrolingus with content from anna anthropy, astrolingus, cysdavis, Lucian Kahn (@oh_theogony). A bundle of games from four queer creators. A mix of analog tabletop roleplaying games, live action roleplaying games (larp), and interactive fiction, some of these titles deal directly with issues of queerness and/or marginalization, while some are just cool games!

doppelgreener

@KorvinStarmast i did grow up in a period before the web, and had encyclopedias and a local library

i used both of those plenty

i don't think reducing this to "pedantry" is fair

AncientSwordRage

12:29 PM

Somethings are probably even easier to find offline

KorvinStarmast

@doppelgreener OK

doppelgreener

my issue is "they repeatedly didn't do even cursory research on their own subject matter"

KorvinStarmast

@doppelgreener who is 'they?' WoTC?

doppelgreener

and "they were happy to use unreliable sources without cross-checking anything, and thus butchered multiple different facets of the mythologies they were drawing on"

the authors of the original monsters we see in D&D

the original monster manual is credited to Gygax, so presumably him, but I don't know if there are co-authors

KorvinStarmast

This is where the pedantry issue arises, I feel. Nobody really got up in arms about that in the pre internet era. They all realized that the game wasn't trying to be a mythology text book.

doppelgreener

12:34 PM

> One who ostentatiously exhibits academic knowledge or who pays undue attention to minor details or formal rules.

I don't think this is what I'm doing.

KorvinStarmast

(I mean heck, the gods/demigods/heroes supplement for OD&D was, how shall we say, a cartoonish look at Norse and other mythology at best).

doppelgreener

I don't know why you're bringing up pre- and post-internet era.

KorvinStarmast

@doppelgreener OK, and as I noted, even as a teenager I noticed the delta between the mythology I had read/studied and what they put into the game, and it doesn't matter. It's playable as a game. Just as with many movies taken from books: not quite what is in the book, but it works for the movie.

doppelgreener

I am, distinctly, calling out the game's poor handling of its own subject matter, and the internet is neither here nor there. If you told 10-year-old me, who was at the time doing a deep dive researching Greek mythology for school using books, and already knew about such monsters as the catoblepas from pop culture we had at the time, that someone had created a poison bull and called it the Gorgon, and created a species of that turned things to stone and called it Medusas, I'd be shocked.

KorvinStarmast

@doppelgreener Because I have noticed a profound difference in attitudes between the two.

doppelgreener

12:37 PM

(10-year-old-me predated Wikipedia's existence, for the record, and didn't even really use the internet for more than cursory research. I think at the time I didn't even like using Google.)

KorvinStarmast

Well, 17 year old me noticed the difference and it was water off of a duck's back.

Do you feel the same way about the comic book/marvel universe treatment of same?

Medix2

There's a reason I look into the actual mythology behind creatures in anything from movies to TTRPGs to board games. I have learned that people suck at accurately representing, well, anything be that mythological creatures or actual people

KorvinStarmast

They aren't trying to teach mythology: going back to the 60's when I read those comics and watched those cartoons in black and white, their treatment was hardly from Bullfinch.

But it was entertaining. That is its purpose: to entertain.

doppelgreener

@KorvinStarmast Marvel isn't calling the trickster god Odin and the thunder god Aeris.

KorvinStarmast

@doppelgreener OK, I see your point.

doppelgreener

12:43 PM

:)

KorvinStarmast

I think that up there a bit you pointed out 'yeah, they got pegasus named correctly' right?

@doppelgreener You just made me think about Peter S Beagle's "The last Unicorn" and I think he used a term "monocerous" ... gaah, need to go and look that up ...

NautArch

This 10 year time lapse of the sun from NASA is really cool...or is it hot? lit?

3

doppelgreener

I pointed out that pop culture has adopted Pegasus and Pegasi as a generic term for winged horses based on a single individual. That was in the scope of me saying I don't mind this adoption because I'm not aware of a readily available name to describe them instead, specifically contrast to Medusa naming the species (which already had a name provided for it in the same text).

KorvinStarmast

@doppelgreener OK, I see the distinction that you are making.

Medix2

@NautArch Not explosive enough 0/10

NautArch

12:52 PM

@doppelgreener altavista? :D

Medix2

@doppelgreener I'm just thinking about Saran Wrap, Band-Aid, Kleenex, and Xerox...

doppelgreener

@NautArch I actually did use that for a while. Specifically on the basis I couldn't take this weird search engine with a silly name like "Google" seriously, altavista seemed much more serious a name, so they must be more serious and have a better search engine.

Someone_Evil

@Medix2 Nintendo, D&D arguably

NautArch

@doppelgreener That was my preferred search engine prior to google.

doppelgreener

And then I started using Google at some point and had that "ooohhhh...... this is why people like this search engine. It is better." moment

Medix2

12:54 PM

@Someone_Evil Ooh haven't encountered Nintendo in the wild yet but definitely encountered D&D

Oh like calling The Nitendo Switch "The Nintendo" perhaps... I have heard that wow

doppelgreener

@Medix2 also hoover. I'm not fighting against genericisation.

Someone_Evil

@Medix2 I think it was more common directly following the NES and SNES which caused nintendo to heavily advertise using the term Games Console so their name wouldn't be genericised (or however you spell that). This is all before my time though so I may well have messed up some details

vicky_molokh- unsilence Monica

@Someone_Evil Now I'm imagining Medusa spending a lot of social capital making sure everyone knows the other Gorgons to avoid letting her name genericise.

KorvinStarmast

speaking of mythological beasts, it appears that in old Persia unicorns had wings

vicky_molokh- unsilence Monica

@KorvinStarmast Alicorns confirmed?

KorvinStarmast

1:03 PM

Not sure, depends on if you are from Ethiopia I suppose. "Cosmas Indicopleustes, a merchant of Alexandria who lived in the 6th century ..gives a description of a unicorn based on four brass figures in the palace of the King of Ethiopia.

He states, from report, that "it is impossible to take this ferocious beast alive; and that all its strength lies in its horn. When it finds itself pursued and in danger of capture, it throws itself from a precipice, and turns so aptly in falling, that it receives all the shock upon the horn, and so escapes safe and sound" (wikipedia entry, sourced)

So that swirly horn is actuallly a kind of spring, or shock absorber, I guess.

Medix2

Wow, a head-attached shock absorber surely would've saved me heaps of pain, how did I not think of this sooner?

KorvinStarmast

The NFL needs to look into that ...

@vicky_molokh-unsilenceMonica neat article on that here Apparently the Assyrians had them too.

doppelgreener

@KorvinStarmast From what I understand, this isn't a unicorn, but a winged bull.

KorvinStarmast

wait, doesn't a ki rin have wings and a horn as well.

@doppelgreener The article seems to think that there were both in Assyrian mythology.

"Winged unicorns themselves have been shown in literature for many thousands of years, the ancient Assyrian seals depicting them alongside winged bulls. The Alicorns allegedly representing the forces of good with the winged bulls representing the forces of evil"

doppelgreener

@KorvinStarmast I am very skeptical. They cite nothing.

KorvinStarmast

1:11 PM

But I recall that Beagle's "The Last Unicorn" had the unicorn depicted as more of a bull than a horse,

@doppelgreener yeah, but the one's from persia were very much 'horse with unicorn horn and wings'

doppelgreener

@KorvinStarmast Kirins, like from China? They're just sorta lion-shaped with horns, but no wings.

They're thought to be based on verbal descriptions of giraffes.

(Giraffes, notably, have no wings, having already met their requisite unusualness quota.)

2

user15026

@KorvinStarmast I hope that's based on more than just the one picture.

KorvinStarmast

@doppelgreener yeah, no wings, but good beer.

doppelgreener

@KorvinStarmast Persian mythology has plenty of mythological animals including ones with horns and/or wings, but I am actually yet to see a horse presented in their art in any mythological status.

user15026

@doppelgreener I am imagining winged giraffes now thank you for that bit of delight

doppelgreener

1:15 PM

@Ash You're welcome

KorvinStarmast

@Ash That picture is what it is; looks like a winged unicorn to me.

user15026

@KorvinStarmast yes but it's...one picture?

KorvinStarmast

but it might also be a winged bull, when one looks at the horn's shape, right?

user15026

But you are making all the assumptions based on a single image which is my confusion

doppelgreener

@KorvinStarmast This one is a bull. Note for example: the short face, the stocky stature and short legs, the tail having only a tuft of hair on the end, and the horns being the curled horns of a bull.

Bulls appear plenty in Persian mythological imagery and this one corresponds to that pretty well.

NautArch

1:20 PM

<discussion hijack> Looking for a nature deity that really is about balance and much more interested in the natural world than the human world.

Someone_Evil

@NautArch From published D&D material?

NautArch

@Someone_Evil generally yes, but can probably pick from any pantheon.

Someone_Evil

I assume you've gone through the standard lists (5e PHB app B) and found none to your liking? Or are you looking for a more detailed basis?

Also, what are you looking for re balance? Because I was kinda gonna suggest Ilharg, the Raze-boar (MtG god of the Gruul, set on returning the city to nature)

NautArch

It's actually for another player. I haven't started the search and thought someone might just now. lazy :(

I had asked the other players who they worshipped just to get an idea, and the human moon druid didn't really have one yet. She had said " She'd be opposed to more cities being dragged into hell because that would disrupt the balance of nature. Though she'd care less about the people and more about the other city denizens."

LizWeir

I... would not tend to describe the Raze-Boar as primarily concerned with balance.

3

NautArch

1:33 PM

→ 1 message moved to Trash

Someone_Evil

@LizWeir That's why I asked. Balance can mean a lot of different things

And I wanted to suggest a slightly outside-the-box nature god

LizWeir

oh right, yes! sorry, misread yu

I still think I'd tend to characterise that particular one as more coincidentally balance-y - it's a god of ruin, it'd still be trying to ruin things even if the balance was already skewed that way - but that's definitely getting into interpretation territory.

Someone_Evil

@NautArch How literal is the "cites being dragged into hell" aspect? Slightly different things going on depending

NautArch

@Someone_Evil er...we're playing descent into avernus :D

MikeQ

2:03 PM

@NautArch This can't be right, I'm pretty sure the sun is flat

AncientSwordRage

@MikeQ sounds about right

goodguy5

2:30 PM

UK-ites.

How do you pronounce the 'Z' in "DragonBallZ"?

LizWeir

Still zee - it's one of the only times I don't say zed.

particularly with the acronym, because the rhyme is good

Hot RPG Questions

11

Q: Could I have handled this PC interaction better?

I started up a play by post game on roll20 for a group of friends. A co-worker, and friend of another player, had asked to join in. Let's call him P1, or Player 1. I said sure, we got the game going after some slow start up. The party is meeting for the first time in a tavern. They get the advent...

dnd-5e problem-players problem-gm

LizWeir

when I was a kid I did obnoxiously refer to it as dragonball zed but I was being horrible and smug and I knew it

nitsua60

@A.B. I'm clearly missing something, since in real life this has always been a fun 20-30 minute conversation that leads to a shared setting we're all invested in. You seem to have the gist of it, with "I think you ask about the barbarian class because you want to play a barbarian."

@GcL "This class has special training beyond most. Where does that happen? Fighter academies? In the army? Tomes of battle that are handed down in families?" "Second wind and action surge: how do others perceive those? Is the (in-world) stereotype that fighters are scary brutes who can't be stopped by civilians? 'Roid freaks? Gentle giants trained to protect those around them?"

You don't need to go through every feature, by the way--one or two answers to questions like those give a huge amount of flavor to a world.

@A.B. You've got it.

@A.B. This. "Wizards are trained in one of the five Schola Magica. Renegades are hunted down and quietly dispatched. Many villages have their secretive hedge-mages, though, who clandestinely suss things out on their own...." [okay, so maybe there's Wizards formally trained and one of sorcerers/warlocks in play?]

This is, I think, my main complaint about D&D editions past, oh, say, B/X.
The *system* hasn't really grown at all, but the *game* is a cancerous tumor.

The game used to be four classes, a handful of races, three dozen spells, a half-page of equipment, fifty monsters and twenty magic items described. The minimum needed to show you how to make these things if you want different ones.

The system was ability scores and saves and attacks and spell slots and hp and AC and XP and levels (with a couple of features that improved by level). The system and the game took up, maybe, 50/50 of the books.

Now you've got a similar amount of system, but the example game that's given in that system has a dozen classes times six subclasses each, more than a score races, three hundred (or more?) spells, three volumes of monsters, hundreds of magic items....

It's got everyone thinking that's D&D rather than that's a way to play D&D.

NautArch

2:54 PM

Do monks have to be lawful in pathfinder 1?

LizWeir

Hm. I don't think I look at it the same way; maybe this is because of how recently I've come in, and earlier editions were different, but I've never felt D&D (3.X on) presented itself as an example but as a finished thing.

nitsua60

@LizWeir Exactly. I think that's a failing.

(And it starts back in 1e, and is firmly entrenched by 2e.)

Transcript for