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10:00 AM
@BESW which yeah,... makes me really tweak out a little when I see obvious,... again I use the word mutated, 4e features
like,... at least stick to your guns on it if you say 4e sucks
,.... don't take a 4e feature and turn it into this different useless thing in your new "oh so perfect" (lol) 5e
 
@BESW True true. I really dislike that kind of mentality: "I didn't like this thing, so I don't want that my new version has ANYTHING coming from there, even if there were redeemable or really good choices"
I mean, If 4e did some things "good" in the eyes of their detractors, isn't that worth keeping too?
 
And they DID take some of the basic learning from 4e going forward, but they also made a lot of sacrifices on the Altar of Tradition.
 
but I digress
 
@Helwar well the slap in the face is that they said that and they had their fingers crossed behind their backs XD
@Helwar well,... yes and no
one thing that made 4e more bearable was that all these mechanics felt like they actually meshed together well
sticking 4e stuff in 5e doesn't work so hot
 
And, yeah. The impossibility of their "one game for everyone doing everything everywhere" design goal, was made really obvious in how the marketing felt like it had to pick sides.
 
10:03 AM
5e is a different beast but it has some 4e lazily grafted onto it where they thought no one would see it or something
 
Like, casters used to have useless cantrips. 4e made so they have "at will" powers. 5e has a version of that, cantrips are now endless, and useful. THey clearly learned that lesson in 4e, and I think that the transition is successful, and good
 
@Helwar I have not seen a cantrip
 
That dishonesty about design goals and style assumptions is part of what made me legit angry at 3.x, and appreciative of 4e.
 
so I can't comment on 5e cantrips
 
Have you played 5e? (just to know how to explain it in more detail :) )
 
10:06 AM
I won't say I would be enamored of 5e in any circumstance, but I would be a little less insulted if they had not badmouthed 4e and then,.... still used some things from it that they took for,.... I still don't know why
the surges are weird in 5e, or at least they feel that way to me, as someone who played 4e where surges were important instead of this vestigial,... thing
 
I've read chunks of it, watched people play, etc. Troggy's played and talked to me about it.
 
the features I have seen that look like they came from a mutated 4e,.... are also wtf
the encounter stuff? that actually looks fine in 5e
that stuff is cool in there
 
@trogdor it's a fighters thing only now, isn't it? I have played a fighter only once and I forgot to use them
 
it's the weird design decisions to stick the wrong 4e features in there that makes me mad
@Helwar surges? no I think everyone has them?
@Helwar but yeah you know what? our group forgets to use em all the time
 
might be talking of different things, what's a surge? I thought you meant second wind
 
10:08 AM
that would never happen in 4e because they are spotlighted and important in 4e
in 5e they do not feel like either of those things
@Helwar see this is another problem
 
i really don't know what surges are you talking about
 
XD
 
@Helwar 4e surges are like 5e HD
 
HD wtv
 
oh, Hit Dice
 
10:09 AM
it's,... the same thing
 
oh we use that all the time
no problemo
 
it just has a different name and is less important and there are fewer of them
 
you have those reserves of energy that you spend to heal yourself, wether it is resting or because of a spell (some 4e spells don't make you spend surges, but they're usually dailies)
 
in 4e you had "second wind" wich was an autoheal you could do in battle, fighters healed more with it iirc. In 5e only fighters retain it
 
@Zachiel yes, my point being those are the exception in 4e
in 5e that's the rule
yeah everyone can heal themselves with "HD" but that amount does not cut it for tough fights where everyone took decent damage
 
10:12 AM
@trogdor So healing works as in 3e, but you also have surges for self-healing on top of it?
 
@Zachiel In 4e potions expended your healing surges (iirc)
 
Whereas in 4e, almost all healing effects derived from surges: they were the real countdown clock to needing to take an extended rest.
 
in 4e, surges were intended to limit daily healing
 
@Zachiel it's weird, during a short rest you can spend HD the same as surges in 4e
no other time that I know of
then it has healing spells like in 3.5
 
You had a lot of surges, but could only spend them if you had a feature that let you: everyone had a 1/fight feature, and leaders had a lot of features that let other people spend their surges.
 
10:13 AM
@Zachiel not to the same degree as in 5e, in 4e you had a bunch of surges at level 1
in 5e you have 1 per level only
 
But if you didn't have a leader, you could take skill powers that gave access to your surges!
 
my issue with it is just that,... why does it need both these things?
the surges in 5e don't seem to count for anything other than short rest healing
they don't bounce off of a whole mechanical system the way they do in 4e
 
@trogdor I think it works perfectly. It works only on rests, wich is out of combat. All other healing is usually during combat
 
Healing surges let healing powers scale with characters more effectively and accurately, which was very cool and made it easier to predict what effect your powers would actually have.
 
@Helwar but my point is,... they could have done something else for healing during short rests, but they yoinked a 4e mechanic and slapped a different name on it
and didn't add anything to make it interesting again
they could have decided you heal 1/4th your hp during rests, or a set amount based on level, or something
but they took that exact mechanic and tried lazily to pretend it wasn't that
 
10:18 AM
Well It seems that my opinion is not the most extended then. I find those things taken from 4e great. The way healing works I prefer it to how it worked in 4e, where I felt it was an extra pressure and thing to juggle. Healers could not heal you if you had already expended all your surges...
 
@Helwar that's fair enough but,.... it just makes me kinda mad is all
not your opinion of it but seeing it there
in the book
 
Sure, and that's a legit design choice, but if that was their goal then, as Troggy points out, there are simpler ways to make it simple.
 
being,.... less than it was
@BESW and yes this
they even tacked a resource on to something they didn't necessarily need to tack a resource on to
 
Maybe one of the defining "feels" of D&D is that it's always a heartbreaker version of itself?
 
lol
HD is still limited healing
it just isn't the only kind of healing available
 
10:22 AM
@BESW and short rests, let's not forget short rests
 
true, you have several sources of it: Natural healing (HD), magic (spells), item based (potions)
 
like everything I can think of to justify it is just not enough for me
 
before all of these sources took a toll on the same resource
 
what I am getting at is,... there are other ways they could have modeled natural healing
they just chose to do it that way
which kinda infuriates me
 
sorry to interrupt: What is this? https://rpg.stackexchange.com/questions/130752/length-of-time-consider-it-thuslyplaying

I keep seeing it appear. Spam bot attack?
 
10:24 AM
@Helwar I think that was the exact reason of having surges at all. Strikers, be careful about getting hit, you don't want to end those at the second or third combat.
 
Exactly that
 
@Helwar yeah we have been having surges of spam
 
@trogdor I get it. To me it was the contrary, it was: "Hey, that's a nod to 4e!? Good!"
@trogdor opposite to surges of healing :P
 
@Helwar that's fine too
I just don't feel that way at all
I feel more like they tried to trick me with the most pathetic strategy ever XD
and it makes me a little mad
@Helwar indeed
XD
and none of this is to say people aren't aloud to like 5e
 
A propos: do the 4e people here allow leaders to use their limited healing powers like Healing word during short rests (since they are better than natural healing, slightly but still)
 
10:27 AM
@trogdor I get it. I've felt the same in other instances.
 
I only enjoy it during the game I have because the people I play it with are cool
 
@kviiri yes
 
and after this campaign I have no real desire to play it again
 
@kviiri Yes, but in practice I've only ever had one leader who wanted to do the math.
 
@BESW who was that?
 
10:28 AM
Pros: not doing so could encourage weird use of resources ("I must heal you now since after the battle I can't!") but Cons: more rolls for rather little effect.
 
@trogdor Ben.
 
ah ok
I knew it wasn't me
 
He showed up with the math pre-done.
 
but we had a couple healers
 
@BESW using spells out of combat only takes another short rest to regain and they Always heal more than the standard healing (including bard which boosts short rest healing IIRC)
 
10:29 AM
makes sense, he liked that kind of thing
 
@Zachiel Absolutely! But it's a lot of extra numbers in a numbers-heavy game and short rests were usually a break from numbers.
 
I remember very vividly when they were making the Neverwinter mmo (based in 4e rules, or so they say). In the beginning they had made all the powers, and you learned all of them, you just couldn't equip them all at the same time, so you had to make builds. People complained: "but muh character will be the same as everyone elses"... The designers then added a point buy system on powers.
 
Instead of "I heal X" it was "I heal X + bonuses + dice" where X, bonuses, and dice all required group coordination.
 
Every power has now 3 grades and you could buy into the first, second or third. And if there were 40 powers, at 3 levels each, to buy everything you would need 120 points, but at the end you had 105 at most
so you where almost there
and people was happy with that: "muh character will now be different!"
 
lol
 
10:32 AM
I was so mad at that. It's like:
A) we demand being different!
B) Wish granted! I will allow you to cut one finger or toe
A) hooray!
 
Well, it's a part of the social nature of these games... absolute power doesn't matter in the slightest, it's all in the relative power and how it plays out
 
BUt in reality nothing changed, you could only equip so many powers, and you had more than enough points to have the equiped ones at max. All that added was an extra stupid layer, and having to reset your point buy if you wanted to change your build
Well, to me it was dumb and infuriating. Wich is, I think, what @trogdor feels with 4e stapled on 5e
 
@Helwar yeah
 
Now, that reminds me of old-school WoW talent trees.
 
@BESW exactly
 
10:38 AM
In theory you could make a very customized build but in practice there were maybe two useful builds for each spec.
 
game started a la Diablo 3 (you have all powers, but can equip only a few), and then added a "talent tree" on top of that
it felt in between in a weird way
@BESW I am so bad at builds that I always have to look some up, I can't do that thing
 
So, this conversation has been dancing around the three + one design questions.
 
in D&D it's easier, smaller numbers and you often don't deal with "0.3% more damage once in a blue moon" kind of things to select
feats and options often offer significant improvements or new actions altogether
 
Ultimately that's the issue at stake: we assume the designers had an answer to "What is your game about?" and that the mechanics provide an answer to "How does your game do this?" and "How does your game encourage / reward this?"
And if we can't see how the mechanics provide those answers, we suspect the designers didn't know what their game was about, or didn't think about how their mechanical choices meshed with making that goal fun.
I tend to get the impression that D&D designers are under constraints that prevent them from forming a coherent answer to the first question, because the franchise demands multiple conflicting answers.
When they try, you get 4e and everyone loses their minds.
 
@BESW It's rather sad. 4e it's a great product, but as I said before, it would have fared waaaaaaaaay better if it were named anything but D&D, or at least it werent 4e. D&D Side Dish! And it would have sold like fresh water in the desert
 
10:50 AM
(Compare Paizo, whose answer to the first seems to be "Our game provides a D&D-like experience for people who like the d20 System," which is unwieldy but coherent.)
@Helwar Same with 5e, really. As originally pitched I might've been able to get excited about it, but the game they produced is not the game they pitched.
 
As someone who didn't really want anything to do with D&D Next, because the sole premise of it was: We goofed on 4e so we are gonna repent and give you something good now, I only started playing it after some convincing from a friend
So I dunno how they pitched it... but I felt 5e was EXACTLY like Pathfinder: both were the answer to the badly recieved 4e, and both said: I am the true good version, and you are playing the inferior one. And it made me feel insulted for liking 4e as is
 
The very earliest pitch actually managed to include 4e: it was "we're going to unite everyone under one roof by making a very simple core mechanic with optional plug-and-play modules derived from different mechanics from each edition, so you can make your OWN D&D by mixing and matching your favorite bits of all of them."
It was madness, nigh impossible under the best of circumstances, a wild and wonderful opium hallucination.
If they'd been able to make it happen, it would've been beautiful, and it would've probably shattered the franchise.
We already have trouble talking about D&D because everyone plays it so differently that each group might as well already be playing their own custom edition.
 
@BESW I wanna play like in AD&D where an elf was just an elf, add 4e mechanics to it, defense is calculated with TACO, and everyone and their mother has cantrips!
 
The instant D&D admitted that, its inertia as the juggernaut flagship of TRPGs would've begun to sink.
 
i'll be back ina few hours
 
11:12 AM
@BESW This, so much x)
I'm thinking of playing some modded 4e at office some evening
Been thinking of semi-pregen charsheets ("pick one from three options for Daily power") and such
Maybe reduce surges per day and replace action points with "recharges" that allow recovering daily powers.
Tuned for intense, shorter sessions
 
11:46 AM
...I'm sorry, I saw "4e" and "short sessions" and took half an hour to reboot.
 
 
1 hour later…
12:57 PM
why do i have +100 points for this answer? rpg.stackexchange.com/a/130749/25963
 
@Helwar you don't, you have 110
:P
 
hummm well yeah you upvoted I guess
but, 100 points for 10 votes? I thought it was 1/10 of that
it surprised me
(thanks for upvoting if you did :) )
 
@Helwar 10 points for an upvote, -2 for a downvote. 5 points for a question upvote.
 
Ohhh, I mostly ask and rarely answer, so that might be why I was surprised
 
But yeah, it was a good answer with interesting lore
 
1:01 PM
-1 for your own downvote if it's on an answer.
(downvoting questions costs nothing)
 
i lose rep if I downvote ?
 
@Helwar Yup, gotta believe the downvote is necessary.
 
it feels fair
 
although I did just put up a comment to that question. Unlikely to make a difference, but it's possible.
 
2:00 PM
+15 for an accepted answer, +2 for an accepted edit (as long as we're throwing them out there)
208
Q: Why do you lose reputation for downvoting?

BlackWaspIt is incredibly rare that I downvote on this or any other community site. I would rather just ignore the item. However, occasionally some very bad advice is given that is worthy of a downvote. Why should this adversely affect the reputation of the person who downvotes?

 
I'm now super wary about my close votes. Is this opinion-based?
 
as written, yes
 
I don't think it necessarily has to be. But in its current form, I'm leaning towards yes. It doesn't really have anything to do with experience or any kind of goal. It's just a general "Hey, I don't know what to do. What are your thoughts?" question.
 
but don't just downvote, the user is new (although he is on a asking spree)
suggest him an edit or something that would make the question answerable if yo ucan
 
It's not a downvote (in my opinion), just an opinion-based as it currently sits. I'll just let others deal with it.
 
2:13 PM
i said downvote, i meant vote to close, mind slipped
 
2:59 PM
@nitsua60 edits only till you get out of the "need to get edits approved" queue
 
3:12 PM
Hey @goodguy5 how have you been?
 
 
1 hour later…
4:21 PM
@Trish Right. (I was trying to imply that with "accepted edit," but could have been clearer.)
 
4:55 PM
oh hey @MikeQ I'm good. haven't been paying much attention around here. not sure why.
 
@goodguy5 Perhaps you too have been distracted by "real life" and its so-called "responsibilities"
 
maybe. work has been a little more hectic.
 
5:17 PM
Hello @KorvinStarmast and @Ash how are yall folks doing
 
user15026
Decently well, for a Thursday. :)
 
@trogdor To answer that question, trogdor, do a little reading on the US Auto Industry, starting about 1950. ;)
 
@trogdor Hmm, IIRC, the advantage in 5e has an ancestor in a 4e Avenger ability.
 
@KorvinStarmast Well also 5e is much simpler and more approachable than previous editions
 
5:27 PM
@MikeQ Howdy, we doing OK,
@MikeQ For WoTC, yes. Not quite as simple as BX/BECMI for beginners, but also a bit less lethal.
 
@KorvinStarmast best class eva
 
@BESW Insofar as 2e as "the apotheosis" ... it had a lot of bloat, for my money, but insofar as it tried to make 1e AD&D less clunky, it was at least a worthwhile effort. (I am glad THAC0 died ....)
 
Character building is simpler because the choices are fewer and individually more impactful
Combat is simpler because you track advantage/disadvantage, rather than a pile of penalties and bonuses of different types and determining whether they stack
 
@JoshuaAslanSmith When 4e came out, my brother and nephew tried to get me to get the new books and play with them on line. I had not too long before that taken my 3.5e books and traded them in to half priced books for beer money. I was "done with D&D" at that point in time, so I missed whatever virtues 4e possessed.
 
@KorvinStarmast I have heard this claim many times, and not that I doubt it, I'm just genuinely surprised the "roll twice and take higher" apparently doesn't have precedent before that in DnD. I mean, it seems like an obvious idea.
 
5:32 PM
@KorvinStarmast But without THAC0 do we ever get to a unified d20 roll...?
 
@nitsua60 I think so, based on Arneson's and Gygax fascination with funny shaped dice. IIRC, the AC numbers came form a naval ship battle game originally ...
 
Encounter design and DMing is simpler because characters have bounded accuracy
 
@kviiri It absolutely existed before that. DMGs as early as 2e, if not 1e, talked about if a check was particularly hard or easy one might require two successes (or either of two attempts to succeed) for the check to pass.
 
And then there's the problem of nobody loving on d12 ...
d12
 
5:33 PM
@KorvinStarmast man if WOTC ever just released the tools Id throw them some money
 
@KorvinStarmast That's how I pick a class, man =)
@DiceService Think that's "Rogue."
 
There are some junk garbage classes in 4e
 
@nitsua60 I'll never let a die roll dictate my character race: I do not believe that a die roll is sufficient authority to make me play a tiefling.
 
but thanks to the heavy forum char op community they are known and avoidable
and generally everyone can do something interesting and well
and magic users are not inherently more poweful than non magic users thanks to the at will, encounter, and daily power system
 
@nitsua60 Yea, that makes sense... why is advantage then often attributed to Avenger though?
 
5:36 PM
the MMO style roles for classes (including hybrid classes) also made combat in general more like a tactics boardgame which scratched a very specific itch Ive not really had any other RPG scratch since
 
@JoshuaAslanSmith Based on the 4e q's and A's I see here, there was some good stuff to be had. @kviiri published, formal game mechanic.
 
Avenger was the first official published game mechanic for advantage (roll 2 take higher)
and it was the core mechanic of the class
 
@kviiri "Roll two, take the higher/lower" has a huge precedent throughout the history of the game (and other games) but it's never been popular as a defacto "here's what gaining a buff/debuff represents" because its effects aren't as dramatic as players have come to expect, and in prior editions, where stacking buffs meant having like +30 to a modifier, it comes out underwhelming.
Meanwhile, 5e enshrined the Advantage/Disadvantage mechanic as a core principle of the system.
And it was able to do so effectively because all the other bonuses got toned down to more reasonable levels.
 
@nitsua60 According to Mike Mornard, the original thief rules were that you check like any other character, and if that does not succeed you get to roll on the thief table. Somehow, that two step process didn't come across very clearly in Greyhawk, nor in the AD&D 1e books. He said that's how they played it at Gary's table. So that's a different sort of two roll thing ...
 
@kviiri I'd not heard that before, but I don't have any familiarity with 3/3.5/4 so I wouldn't be surprised if I'd missed plenty of commentary.
 
5:43 PM
I always wanted to play an Avenger. Where are 4e DMs when I need one :|
 
@KorvinStarmast Oh, I'll roll for race, but it's a d4 roll =)
 
@Xirema It's hilarious how original DnD 4e monsters have humongous defenses and attack modifiers at high levels, and hit points at several hundred... and then deal pathetic damage
I think 4e is a decent game but they didn't really think that part though. It's a huge flaw (and luckily, one they later remedied to some extent)
 
@kviiri This is one of the complaints I've heard about 4e - Everyone's HP is so high and damage is so relatively low, so combat would feel like a long grind
 
@MikeQ Yep, it gets that way at higher levels. But it also got better later on, because they revised the monster math for MM3 and Monster Vault.
 
@kviiri Ah okay. I've found that in most turn-based games, you make a monster scary by upping its offense, not necessarily its defense. Otherwise you have a dragon-shaped punching bag.
 
5:47 PM
@MikeQ Haha, aye. Yes, I agree with that idea.
 
Of course, it depends on the game. If individual turns are complex, and each round is 5+ minutes, then you don't want combat lasting more than 4-8 rounds
 
Although I think the real scariness is with monsters that are really proactive and take the fight to the heroes while being incredibly unfair with it. I like my DnD as a rather traditional combat game so I don't use this trick there often, but I often find the tensest action in games where the PCs, for once, have to be the hunted ones instead of barging in dungeons to kill Orcus on his throne :)
By "unfair", I don't really mean making the game unfair - just fighting dirty in interesting ways.
 
@kviiri Oh I never have the monsters just waiting in their dungeon, twiddling their thumbs and waiting to be murdered by invading heroes. It's a trope that works in video games and, to me, seems silly anywhere else.
 
@MikeQ I do, in DnD. I like the simplicity :) although I occasionally make a minigame out of some monster that wants to really off the players... I want to give my players agency over it, though.
 
If creatures live in the haunted house/dungeon/restaurant/cave, then they've gotta be doing something there. Patrolling is usually a reasonable default. Maybe some of the residents come in and out of the building to fetch supplies.
 
5:53 PM
Eg. like I did with the Night Hag: the party had a tracker which gave the odds for being haunted tonight, and the tracker went better with travel and worse for attracting attention and staying still too long.
 
Unless they're plants. Plants get to do nothing, if they want.
 
If they got haunted, they'd be haunted, and could deal with that any way they could... try to kill the hag or whatever.
And having the tracker high would give them an informed option to use magic circle pre-emptively
 
Ah, are you specifically talking about encountering monsters while traveling?
 
Not really, this was a bit of a special case
The Night Hag was meant to be a sort of "side mission" that keeps going alongside the game proper, sabotaging their other questing until the players get rid of it.
I know some people are iffy about having open rules for stuff like this, but well... the heroes have an idea they're being hunted by a Night Hag, they have an idea that attracting attention will probably help the Night Hag figure out their location and that skipping to another town without making noise about it will probably throw her off for at least a few days.
 
@kviiri If you want to occasionally reward the players for careful planning, then... sure? Let it work a few times.
 
6:00 PM
Is it wrong to undelete a duplicate question?
 
@NautArch I don't think so. I wasn't aware questions could be deleted only for being a duplicate, I thought they just get closed.
 
@MikeQ I introduced a set of rules so they could have the experience of Night Hag raids without me having to be or feel arbitrary about when she attacks and when not, and it worked - except I had to can the campaign for other reasons
And skipping town was explicitly a way to lose the Hag's attention :)
 
@Xirema User deleted it themselves.
 
@NautArch If the author deleted it, then it's probably best to respect their decision
 
@NautArch In that case, I'd probably leave it be. If it's already a duplicate, and if the user doesn't feel there's value in keeping it open, then there's not much point in reopening it.
 
6:03 PM
@DanielZastoupil I don't think you need to delete your question. Someone else may use those search times and find it, but if you want to leave it deleted, that's okay too :)
 
@MikeQ One of the most fun games I've had was an AW game where our characters were elite mercenarise targeted for assassination by another group of elite mercenaries. Most enemies had been mooks without good gear or training until then, and suddenly these guys pop up. It felt like a proper, tense challenge to even survive their well-coordinated assaults
And even better, getting to kill them felt super nice :)
 
6:30 PM
@kviiri We had an original Traveller bounty hunter scenario that nearly offed our party. One of the most memorable Traveller sessions we had. Sounds similar to what you ran into in AW.
 
@kviiri Assaults, as in plural? How'd you do that?
@kviiri I ask because I've introduced an antagonist NPC like this in my game, an elite whatever who's supposedly hunting the party, but I'm not entirely sure how to have them show up recurrently
(because a direct assault would likely result in the NPC getting killed or captured by the PCs. If they die after showing up once, then they obviously can't be a recurring enemy.)
 
6:47 PM
Well, first of all there were many of them - they were like another "party". So they had spares :)
And they employed unusual tactics (from the typical RPG perspective). Bombs and hit and run attacks, for instance. And remote controlled drones like Shadowrun Riggers use
 
@kviiri "Well, meatTank#3 just died, load up meatTank#4 and lets try again."
 
@kviiri Right, yeah. I can have this antagonist show up with a cycling team. Ideally I want them to be proactive, and rely on stealth, ambush, and other hit-and-run tactics.
...And by "cycling team", I mean "allied NPCs who fight alongside him and can die without breaking the plot", rather than a group of NPCs on bicycles
in case that somehow wasn't clear from context
 
In the scene where we finally offed them, one of our people was skulking in a damaged office building. I was keeping an eye outside to notice that a small RC drone is circling the building, and is armed with a light machine gun. So I take a while to deduce its source and sneak up on the poor fellow controlling it and try to get him to surrender
 
::raises hand:: I was imagining villains on bicycles.
 
He instead stalled for time and brought the drone back to himself, forcing my character to chastise both with the other kind of RPG.
 
6:51 PM
@ACuriousMind Villain: "Perhaps you can best me in combat, heroes! But can you defeat my team of trained cyclists in the Tour de Faerun? Muhahahaha!"
 
@MikeQ One of the tricks our GM used was that no combat was really intended (by the bad guys) to last longer than a few shots. They'd have a gunslinger somewhere, he'd fire at our peeps once and then disappear as fast as possible. Or throw a grenade, stab someone or such.
 
@kviiri I don't get it. Was the plan to inconvenience the PCs or kill them?
 
@MikeQ Kill, but the workings of that strategy (both as in-character assassination attempt and out-of-character plot) rely on how harm works in AW
Basically, gunshots are lethal, like they are in real world. The bad guys know that if they shoot someone, they're likely to die of it or at least be in pretty lousy shape for several days at least. So this type of hit and run is, in-universe, a rather feasible approach.
Harm also takes a while to heal in AW, it's not like the PCs can just take a long rest to recover from being shot at. However, they do have ample plot armor: a PC can take 6-harm, while 3-harm is enough to usually kill an NPC ether right away or shortly after impact.
So getting shot at kinda packs the feeling of getting shot at, because it wounds your character for quite a while, although one doesn't really die by accident of it.
(in Apocalypse World 2, released since, the player can just choose not to die, instead coming back to life with a different playbook, increased Weird or decreased Hard)
 
@kviiri You might be surprised at how often a gunshot isn't lethal IRL. Trauma centers the world over, as well as first responders, do of course help in reducing the level of lethality of a given hit ...
 
@KorvinStarmast Yeah, I've understood there's a rather good chance of surviving small caliber fire if it doesn't hit any critical organs. Then again, post-apocalyptic world isn't exactly the pinnacle of high medical science :)
On the other other hand, Apocalypse World is a world where that weirdo sawbones can do all kinds of funky "medical" stuff without having the access to any of today's tech so...
 
7:21 PM
@kviiri Aha, I imagine this makes it much easier to prepare dangers for the PCs
 
7:32 PM
@MikeQ yeah, minor damage (or "minor") is a real cost in AW
 
7:59 PM
@MikeQ but Mike, patrolling is bo~~~ring
(said no rambunctious inefficient young girl sidekick ever)
(I wonder why exaggerately long vowels are something you often find associated with women, unless it's bullies teasing someone)
 
@Zachiel Or a dramatic "Nooooooooooooo!!", I believe those are gender neutral
 
@MikeQ I admit I was thinking at long vowels in the middle of words.
 
Those are in the middle, sort of
 
Not-at-the-end?
 
They're in the middle if shouted in French. "Noooooooooooooon!"
 
8:08 PM
Tu est terrible, Michael.
 
Oui. And it's just Mike. Could be short for something else, you never know.
 
True, I just needed something French and I hoped for the best.
I think it works as a pun whatever the real name is, and I hope it didn't offend you.
 
No offense taken, as I have resistance against the offended condition
off-ended?
 
Relevant small thing that bothers me: people who use exaggerated long consonants when it doesn't make any sense (e.g. "it's so smalllllllllllllll").
 
@Yuuki How about exaggerated silent letters
e.g. "it's so cuteeeeeeeeee!"
 
8:25 PM
does that extend the t somehow?
 
8:45 PM
@Yuuki ...but 'L' is one of the consonants one can actually stretch indefinitely!
 
user15026
@Yuuki I feel like the a would stretch more than the l there but the l still could, but I know the feelign
 
Do you prefer buuuuuuuuuuzz or buzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz?
 
@GreySage #2. #1 seems to prioritize the wrong syllable (or whatever the correct word for it is that isn't 'syllable')
 
@Xirema Sound? Possibly phonon.
 
@GreySage Phonon sounds like the right word. More complex than a sound, but less complex than a syllable.
 
8:55 PM
 
@MikeQ Phoneme is a differentiable sound. So it could work here
 
@MikeQ There it is.
 
@GreySage Something something integrals.
 
Whereas phonons are a quantum physics thingamajig
 
In phonetics and linguistics, a phone is any distinct speech sound or gesture, regardless of whether the exact sound is critical to the meanings of words. In contrast, a phoneme is a speech sound in a given language that, if swapped with another phoneme, would change the meaning of the word. Phones are absolute and are not specific to any language, but phonemes can be discussed only in reference to specific languages. For example, the English words kid and kit end with two distinct phonemes, and swapping one for the other would change the word's meaning. However, the difference between the /p/...
 
8:58 PM
In physics, a phonon is a collective excitation in a periodic, elastic arrangement of atoms or molecules in condensed matter, like solids and some liquids. Often designated a quasiparticle, it represents an excited state in the quantum mechanical quantization of the modes of vibrations of elastic structures of interacting particles. Phonons play a major role in many of the physical properties of condensed matter, like thermal conductivity and electrical conductivity. The study of phonons is an important part of condensed matter physics. The concept of phonons was introduced in 1932 by Sovie...
 
And fonons are a needlessly complicated plot device
 
@Yuuki Huh. TIL.
 
@MikeQ And "phone, on" is how you call someone with Alexa.
 
@SirCinnamon I guess I was thinking Phone not Phonon, so close
 
@GreySage I had to look it up, i would have been way off
 
9:04 PM
@SirCinnamon And don't even get me started on Allophones...
Regrettably unrelated to the Allosaurus.
 
9:16 PM
@GreySage I took a latin course once and it made dinosaur names highly entertaining
"Averostra, or "bird snouts"..."
 
9:29 PM
@GreySage Well, both are ἄλλος. From a linguistic perspective, that's definitely related.
 
@MikeQ Eh, not just quantum. Solid-state physics, too =)
@MikeQ The only thing I'll say about that is that the function (currently) of the "silent e" is to modify the pronunciation of the vowel that precedes it. So one could charitably read: since one silent e lengthens the u from cut into cute, shouldn't more silent es continue lengthening the u?
 
9:54 PM
@MikeQ off-ended sounds like a condition after one lost one's a$$ during a poker game ...
 
@nitsua60 Then what's the difference between "cuuuuuuuuuuuute" and "cuteeeeeeeeeeee" ?
 
What makes a man, into a mane? What makes a ban, into a bane?
Silent E.
 
@MikeQ One makes you a bastard-person. For me? I hear the first one as one-syllable "kyoo...oot" while I hear the second as two-syllable "kyoot-eeeeee".
I did say it'd be a charitable reading =)
 
Tom Lehrer wrote that song for a kids' education show back in the 60's or 70's. Electric Company?
@nitsua60 Have you ever heard Tom Lehrer's spiel on New Math? The song?
 
@KorvinStarmast nope
 
9:59 PM
@nitsua60 Here's the youtube rendering ... hope you get a giggle out of it.
IIRC you teach some math. :)
 
@KorvinStarmast Yeah, a little bit =)
(Trying to decide this week whether my winter term elective will be History of Math or Linear Algebra.)
 
Please enjoy. I first heard it in 1970. Laughed, I did.
Off I go, I have been summoned. 7th level spousal spell, no save. :)
 
@KorvinStarmast The Newhoohoo is also relevant to the context here :)
 
Tom Lehrer almost wrote the theme song for Square One TV. Oh, what could have been.
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10:18 PM
hey there @nitsua60
 
10:56 PM
@Shalvenay hey-ooh... how's it going?
 
@nitsua60 alright here, mind if I poke you in Discord?
 
@Shalvenay poke 'way [rummages for Discord]
@Shalvenay actually... just got pinged about a work-thing. I'll be afk about an hour. Ping you when I'm back.
 
03:00 - 10:0010:00 - 00:00

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