TRPG General Chat

@ColinGross Ah yes. Yup I think all three of us are in agreement there.

(now)

If you're immune to charm, there is no saving throw.. you just succeed.

Shizzz... actually... the wording on that isn't quite right. Lemme check the DMG.

Honestly it is very similar to how Antimagic Field works. Simple suppression of the spell.

If immunity == autosave == unaffected, then polymorph ceases as soon as it's cast.

the effect of the spell would autosave against the spell

Lemme see if I can find some text that differentiates or breaks one of those equalities. I think the DMG has it.

7:08 PM

@ColinGross Interestingly TP was errated. It used to say "shapechangers automatically succeed at this saving throw" or something like that.

Or actually that may have been one of those stealth edits they made between printings that never made it into errata. I can't remember.

ha

@Rubiksmoose yeah, so if you're immune to fire, you don't save against a fireball, but you're unaffected.

Does the implication go the other direction?

@ColinGross What would be the other direction in this case?

@Rubiksmoose If you're unaffected, you're immune. e.g. undead are unaffected by charm. Are undead immune to charm?

If so, does the charm spell still exist if the target is an undead creature?

does the charm spell exist after you save against it?

If the spell ends when you save, then is immunity an autosave?

Such that when the subject saves the spell ends, so that an immune subject automatically ends the spell

"The raksasha is immune to spells of 6th level or lower unless it wishes to be affected."

Is one of the only references I can find that explicitly link both

7:27 PM

@ColinGross I suppose this would depend on the spell?

We're are pretty in the weeds here as far as terminology goes. And this is not one of 5e's strong suits.\

@Rubiksmoose In the case of polymorph, there is a save. If you're a shapechanger, you're unaffected. If unaffected == immune == autosave, does the spell immediately end?

@Rubiksmoose I do enjoy the discussion though.

@ColinGross oh for sure so do I.

@ColinGross I don't think immune == autosave.

@Rubiksmoose That's what I'm looking at. I'm unsure about it either way. If you save against fear from a dragon, you're immune for 24 hours... so when it uses roar or whatever again, do you save or not?

hmmm... not a good example. I'll try to find a spell that does something similar.

I would say the save of a spell is part of the effect. If you are unaffected by a spell you don't even get to the point of making a save, the spell simply does not affect you in any way.

@Rubiksmoose yeah, that's the raining, but you're not wet interpretation.

Which gives you an end run around immune creatures. The spell is still on them. They're just unaffected.

Where a creature that saved ends the spell.

The dissonance there smells like a loophole

7:37 PM

28% of all RPG.SE questions were closed

@ColinGross Yeah but 99.9999% of the time the caster simply ends the spell anyways.

I would imagine.

@Rubiksmoose I think this is better posed as a question

@Rubiksmoose Only if concentration is required.

If concentration isn't required, the duration is the duration

@Rubiksmoose If I cast detect magic on a creature under a spell it is immune to, do I detect a magic?

like hex

@ColinGross True. It would certainly put it before more eyes and allow for more structered thought.

7:39 PM

Intuitively I'd say no - the creature was immune, the spell fizzled.

But I don't have rules for that.

@SPavel the subject of detect magic is self

@SPavel That is my intuition as well

The subject and object of detect magic is self.

@ColinGross Fine, if I cast detect magic on myself and then detect the magic on that creature, that's not the point

It imbues you with the ability to detect magic

That is the point.

nitsua60

7:40 PM

@NautArch Okay--I'll add you to the list. It's a pretty quiet channel--once a week during "heavy" seasons, less during hiatuses.

@ColinGross No, that is not the point of what I asked.

If you think it is the point, please re-read what I asked.

If you cast detect magic on a creature (self) that is immune to magic?

You can only cast detect magic on yourself. If you're immune to magic, does the spell exist?

is that what you're asking?

Let's say I cast bone hurting juice (a 1st level spell) on the rakshasa, and he goes "ouch oof owie my bones" but I suspect he is lying so I cast detect magic to detect if he is affected by the spell.

Does my detect magic detect the bone hurting juice that the rakshasa is immune to, or has the bone hurting juice spell gone away because the rakshasa was immune?

@SPavel Sorry. Now I see what you're getting at.

What does detect magic say?

@SPavel There may be a difference between immune and not present?

the spell IS active, it's just not affecting the creature?

7:43 PM

@NautArch That's the issue. In the case where the target saves, the spell ends. In the case where the target is immune, does the spell end?

Since immunity obviates the saving throw

@ColinGross But a Raksasha didn't pass/save the fail. It's simply unaffected.

it could pass or save it, it just remains unaffected.

I am immune to smallpox. You could still try and inject small pox into me.

@NautArch Are you taking volunteers :D

@NautArch In this case, the small pox would die. That's how that immunity works. I don't know if spells fall under the same analogy.

SOrt of like another creature being in a paladin's aura that prevents Frightened. They may still have the frightened condition, it's just not currently presenting.

@NautArch Actually in that case, if they save, they're immune. However the paladin is still frightening, but that's an attribute of the paladin (or dragon)

or mummy

I'm looking for the interaction between immunity and saving throw

7:48 PM

@ColinGross I meant that the Paladin's aura is preventing the condition from presenting.

@NautArch yeah, but that's like vorpal sword. If your'e immune to slashing, your head isn't cut off and your'e unaffected

the effect doesn't manifest.

the vorpal sword is still... vorpally.

@ColinGross but the effect is present (in the case of a frightened creature in the paladin's aura)

In the instance of the polymorph spell, if the effect is negated, is the spell negated?

@NautArch is this supression or negation?

@ColinGross Paladin aura of protection is suppression.

suppressed and unaffected are different to me.

same with suppression and immunity

7:50 PM

@ColinGross that's the question :)

@NautArch I concur

I think immune is clearly not suppression.

I'm less certain about unaffected

Anaphory

Thanks to chat (@kviiri, in particular, for organizing) this was already one very nice day in Finland.

@ColinGross I'm not positive on that. If I'm immune to drowning, I can still be in water. (is that even a good usecase?)

@NautArch The water exists if you're immune or not. Heck, it exists if your'e in it or not.

A polymorph spell ends if you save against it.

A polymorph spell does not exist without an object to affect.

[subject] casts polymorph on [object]

If that object saves, the spell ends

So the problem we are having is that we are trying to build up to one big conclusion (Does TP end if used on a shapechanger that is unaffected by it (or to turn into one)) but linking together a series of arguments based on terms that are not defined (and likely not used consistently) who don't have a whole lot of reason to be defined in depth in the first place.

7:54 PM

@ColinGross If a tree falls alone in the forest, is it an improvised weapon?

if that object is immune the spell ___?
if the object is unaffected the spell ____ ?

@Yuuki gravity wields all with proficiency

I guess I'd say that if the spell isn't affecting someone, it isn't active on them.

What is the sound of one hand casting silence?

@NautArch I concur, but does the spell persist?

@ColinGross I think that is what he means by active

7:56 PM

Does a dog have tarrasque-nature or not?

@Rubiksmoose Okay. I can get onboard with that. I'm just having trouble finding text to get to that conclusion in the MM PHB and DMG

@ColinGross Yeah that is the problem with terms that are not defined anywhere unfortunately. I have a feeling that the best we could ever come up with is a logical guess that sounds good. I don't see any RAW ruling here. :-/

Fortunately this is 5e where there are no rules, only rulings

@Rubiksmoose Shiz... found it in XGtE

@ColinGross Do tell!

7:59 PM

ehhh... kinda... about invalid targets

@Rubiksmoose 'tis @ColinGross

@ColinGross ah yeah. that one.

Close but no smoking gun

@SPavel Fortunately this is 5e where there are no rules, only ~~rulings~~ rulers

@Rubiksmoose metric or imperial, tho?

8:00 PM

"If you cast a spell on something that can't be affected by the spell, nothing happens to that target, ... the spell slot is still expended."

but this is after targeting... however, is the initial target the continuing target of the spell?

@Rubiksmoose Humanoids in a mob. What is a mob to a DM? What is a DM to Crawford? What is Crawford to a non-tweeter?

On the 2nd round of fairy fire, are you still the target of the spell?

@ColinGross Anyone hit by the spell counts as a target

"If the spell normally has no effect on a target that succeeds on a saving throw, the invalid target appears to have succeeded on its saving throw, even though it didn't attempt one..."

@ColinGross That is the question at the heart of many invalid target after casting questions

8:02 PM

@MikeQ But is it still a target in the ongoing rounds?

I think XGtE covers this if the target of the spell initially continues to be the target of the spell for the duration.

At least, it's the most specific thing I can find other than the rahakassa

You know what they say: It is better to cause fear than to charm if you cannot do both.

@Rubiksmoose I see what you did there.

@ColinGross I do not think you can extend the logic from XGE past the initial casting. The rule there is very well defined.

Or at least I have not been able to or seen anybody do so.

> Player: "I want do flirt with the guard."
DM: "Ok, give me a Diplomacy roll."
Player: "Actually I cast *Fear* instead. Are we friends now?"

@Rubiksmoose It's a weird case where the validity of the object of the spell changes.

8:06 PM

When it comes to rules on spell targeting there are (at least) two schools of thought:

1. Restrictions on targeting apply only when the spell is cast and it does not matter what happens after that.
2. Targeting conditions must be met the entire time the spell is in effect. And either...

a. The spell ends if conditions are not met at any point during the spell's duration.

or

b. The spell is suppressed only while conditions are not met at any point during the spell's duration.

@Rubiksmoose Neither of those addresses the immunity bit though, does it?

@SPavel Nope.

@SPavel I think that's the issue for me. Does a spell with a duration have a target for the entire duration?

@ColinGross Consider the case: You cast Dominate Person on a smarmy rogue. Rogue makes the save (no effect.) But you choose (for whatever reason) not to end the concentration.

^like that?

@NautArch Yeah. the spell continues to exist. Does that spell have a target?

8:08 PM

@ColinGross It had a target, but the target made the save?

@NautArch No. In the case the target did not save.

on the 2nd round. Does the spell still have a target?

@ColinGross Though I'm unsure of how you'd prove this outside an actual rule; it could be disproven if a spell were to directly cause a condition that would cause the target to not meet the targeting standards

@ColinGross So I recently had some thought regarding this. Say a spell said it targets "one humanoid in range that you can see". It would seem that if you held that targeting conditions must hold true for the entire duration then that you must also, in this case, see the target for the entire duration. Which doesn't seem like the correct ruling here. Though this may simply be a strawman.

@Rubiksmoose That's a good example. You target a human you can see. That human is now the target of the spell.

Does that human cease to become a target of the spell when you can't see them? or are they still the target of the spell?

In the case of polymorph, it doesn't restrict targeting. It just says they're unaffected. The targeting issue is trying to bridge back to the XGtE text.

I'm looking for equivalencies that allow me to get back to RAW text somewhere.

The spell still has a range, duration, and other attributes from its stat block. I'd assume the target attribute persists.

I mean, isn't range a targeting criterion?

(Target must be in range for the spell to target them)

8:14 PM

Given the text of dominate person "While the target is Charmed, you have a telepathic link with it as long as the two of you are on the same plane of existence." I'd assume the spell continues to have a target.

@Delioth Also for the effect. e.g. heat metal ends by running the heck away from the caster.

@Delioth That is a good point as well. And spells explicitly can go outside that range after casting.

Heat metal; is that one concentration? (I don't play enough 5e)

@Delioth yup

@Delioth 'tis

@Delioth it is concentration

"Once a spell is cast, its effects aren’t limited by its range, unless the spell’s description says otherwise."
Shizz... wrong again, me.

8:16 PM

@ColinGross So dominate person is cancelled if the target has a connecting flight and you don't?

@Yuuki :P

@Yuuki Is it a United flight?

@Yuuki No, you're thinking of an Airplane of existence. A Plane of existence means it's cancelled if you or the target leave the same grassy field

@Delioth Or you just have to not be extravagant. A plain existence is just fine for the spell. Nothing fancy.

Those with crushed velvet pants aren't affected.

@Delioth No no, you're thinking of a plain of existence. A plane of existence means it's cancelled if you all leave the aircraft in a really high-strung mood.

@ColinGross No, that's a plane of execution, not a plane of existence.

8:20 PM

@Yuuki Material component is one guillotine

I'm knackered on the subject. Going to leave it to the masses: rpg.stackexchange.com/questions/123728/…

kviiri

@Anaphory The pleasure was all mine! (Though I hope that isn't literally true)

@ColinGross i'm pretty confused at what your'e trying to ask there. I think you've overcomplicated the question.

and/or you have multiple questions.

@ColinGross I'm also confused. I don't think what you are asking is going to get you an answer to your question.

@Rubiksmoose I'll try to clarify

I don't think it is multiple questions.

8:30 PM

A spell such as dominate person or polymorph is cast on a human. The human does not save. On the next round, is the human still considered the target of the spell?

@ColinGross I had thought the question was if they made the save, are they still the target.

If they didn't make the save, then they are absolutely still the target.

@NautArch iIf they make the save, the spell ends.

@NautArch If that is the case, then XGtE section on invalid spell targets holds for any spell that has a saving throw.

Which gets me to unaffected == autosave

or approximates autosave sufficiently to terminate the spell

Which will then be my follow up question.

@ColinGross Ok, i'm lost. I'll let others work on this :)

@NautArch if polymorph changes the target into something that is unaffected by the spell effects, it essentially autosaves and thus the polymorph spell ends.

At least, that's the closest I can find in XGtE and the core books.

@ColinGross So this seems like a confusing example since intuitively I think most people assume the spell just ends if the target saves.

8:40 PM

@Rubiksmoose It explicitly does. Unaffected and immune creatures don't make a saving throw though.

Until XGtE there wasn't any writing about if that means they're auto saving or not.

Undead. Unaffected by charm. Does that mean when you cast charm, the spell is there and they're unaffected, or does the spell end?

If it's the spell continues and they're unaffected, if you polymorph them into a human, are they then under the effect of charm?

@ColinGross ibelieve you have found the question you really want to ask :)

@ColinGross Woops I was reversing the logic (assuming they saved).

@NautArch I'm getting there.

It's unit testing

In general the stack does not deal really well with asking pieces of one problem in different questions actually.

Just a heads up

@Rubiksmoose I'm trying to piecemeal way this time. Otherwise, I'll get dinged for "multiple questions"

or at least have to put up with that.

8:45 PM

@ColinGross But the best way is to ask your big question and let other people work through all the pieces. Not to ask all the pieces individually.

I mean you can do it, its not against the rules, but people usually don't react very well to it.

@Rubiksmoose Ideally, I'd like it that way, but the lower level questions might side track the entire thing.

@Rubiksmoose That is a risk.

And by big question I don't mean multiple questions I mean like "Undead. Unaffected by charm. Does that mean when you cast charm, the spell is there and they're unaffected, or does the spell end?"

@Rubiksmoose does succeeding on a save even end the spell true polymorph?

@DavidCoffron No.

@Rubiksmoose do any spells end before their duration from a successful save?

8:48 PM

This spell has no effect on a shapechanger or a creature with 0 hit points. An unwilling creature can make a Wisdom saving throw, and if it succeeds, it isn't affected by this spell.

@DavidCoffron Dominate Person does for sure.

@Rubiksmoose why? It just says that the target is only charmed if it fails the save. Nowhere does the spell end

@DavidCoffron Its waaaaay at the end.

(It took me a while to find it.)

@Rubiksmoose that's only on the damage save not on the initial one

@DavidCoffron Correct.

So if they succeed the initial save, the spell persists, they just aren't charmed

8:51 PM

What's the use-case for continuing to concentrate on a spell that has no effect?

@NautArch I'm getting there

So if your question is "do any spells end before their duration from a successful initial save?" the answer is: I don't know.

"You can use your action to take total control of the target. Until the end of your next turn, the creature takes only the actions you decide and nothing you don't allow it to. You can also have the creature use a reaction, but this takes your reaction as well." This works on the target regardless of whether it's charmed or not by RAW

Which is strange to say the least

@DavidCoffron Hah! You are totally right. You know I started down this logic train a bit ago but got distracted.

BESW

It's a big complicated world, but you have to try to take small steps in the right direction. Last month we published Arecibo, a Stranger Things-style Fate world set in Puerto Rico. It's #PayWhatYouWant. All 2018 proceeds it makes go to hurricane relief. https://www.drivethrurpg.com/product/240445/Arecibo-o-A-World-of-Adventure-for-Fate-Core?affiliate_id=24139

Tweeted by EvilHatOfficial on June 1, 2018 at 4:55 PM

8:54 PM

@DavidCoffron Actually I would argue that it is not technically right

I think that ability is still based on the telepathic link specified in the previous paragraph, but that is not super clear RAW

almost certainly RAI though.

IT's all under the context of "While the target is charmed, you have a telepathic link with it as long as the two of you are on the same plane of existence."

"Many spells specify that a target can make a saving throw to avoid some or all of a spell’s effects." The spell literally specifies that it only avoids the charmed (when they could've said all of the spell effects). #FixYourGameWoTC

@NautArch that context interpretation is debatable

@DavidCoffron Although I think extremely reasonable

@Rubiksmoose I to would argue it should be certainly ties to charmed, but it is possible that you may be able to use the precise control without having to be on the same plane

@DavidCoffron are you debating this under general semantics or because you honestly believe it?

8:58 PM

@ColinGross For the record, reading XGE section it explicitly only applies to when you cast the spell, but not after. "If you cast a spell on someone or something that can't be affected by the spell, nothing happens to the target."

Or is this for your PhD in rules lawyering? :D

@NautArch devils advocate

@DavidCoffron PhD, then :) So your stance is that because it's not int he same paragraph (or a separate paragraph) it doesn't apply?

I house rule most things for RAF anyway and my most recent game has homebrew for every character in one way or another

@NautArch doesn't intrinsically apply

@DavidCoffron So nothing intrinsically applies thta isn't in the same paragraph? I'm finding that debate very tenuous.

9:00 PM

And they should've wrote it better (the paragraph separation was likely for readability to be fair)

@NautArch some things do. Like we know that the wisdom save at the last a paragraph refers to the one in the first

But the third paragraph about total control has no referential language at all

Nothing to imply (beyond reason of balance and core intent) it's connected to the charm state

@DavidCoffron except that it's all in the spell description.

It's not like we're comparing different parts of the books. It's a description of how DP works.

If they had separated out the sentence regarding the link, would you still advocate for the devil?

@NautArch I agree that the spell must be active but that's the case regardless of the charm (according to our previous discussion). I was bringing up one of the weird results that stem from that reasoning

@NautArch um maybe not. Already it's tenuous because of plain reading

Ok, good luck with that - i'm off! New VTT campaign starting tomorrow as DM, wish me luck :P

@NautArch Vampire the Tmasquerade?

@NautArch Good luck! I hope it goes great!

9:08 PM

@Rubiksmoose me too :) First contact with my world (kaboom)

@SPavel Vampire the Tarrasquerade

5

@MikeQ I want this

Amazing lol

Vampire Tarrasque trying to blend in with the Masquerade

Alternately, a bunch of vampires all trying their level best at pretending to be tarrasques.

> "RARGH!"
> "Steve..."
> "ROWR!"
> "Steve, you're 5'4'', this isn't going to work."
> "REAAAAARGH!"
> "Steve, please."

So I took a look through some Pathfinder stuff recently. Could a hex magus take the prehensile hair hex to deliver touch spells via beard grappling?

9:19 PM

@Yuuki Oh man I feel like this was a question way back when I played it. HAve you looked here?

Oh man, speaking of silly builds.

> Combine Artillery Team (teamwork feat for two characters to wield a large sized crossbow or musket) with Esquire Cavalier (trades mount for a cohort). Now you can use that giant weapon without needing help from another party member. My suggestion would be to play two Ratlings because the Swarming trait will let them occupy a single square without issue.
> Now ya got two rats with a big old 3d6 hand cannon. Maybe one stands on the other’s shoulders and they wear a duster coat. Maybe they got an old Western accent. “This town ain’t big enough for the three of us.”

@DavidCoffron high level monopoly play sounds literally awful.

@Yuuki Obviously, the page carries around an enormous crossbow and the gentleman knight merely orders where it must be fired

If a bard casts dominate person, could they use their target as a wind or vocal instrument?

@Rubiksmoose I know, but it's the closest available guidance in the official rules.

Anaphory

9:34 PM

@Yuuki What are vocal instruments? Mouth harp and kazoo?

@Anaphory Voice? Like singing?

Anaphory

I was thinking it was an established term and was wondering what it might apply to.

Can a bard perform using financial instruments?

> "Count, I wish to confess something to you."
"RRRRARGGGHHH?"
"There's something off about you. But I just can't place it."
"RRRAHHHHHRGGHH."
"Yes, perhaps it is just my feelings for you."
"GHHHRROOAAAARR."
"Oh, you always know what to say, my dearest Count."

@SPavel Which game?

@Rubiksmoose There is no "high level" monopoly, it is too luck based. Some friends of mine made the "perfect monopoly" A.I. and it still couldn't beat the mediocre A.I.s in some of the digital versions more than 65% of the time

BESW

9:46 PM

@SPavel Sure, you can do live folding of paper money into origami figures.

@BESW /me makes balloon animal mime bard

@DavidCoffron Just don't play the party scout

@SPavel They'll never suspect the alter self form of balloon animal. I'm basically invisible

"Bard, what's up ahead?"
*squeak squeak squeak twist twist*
"It's a...dog?"
*twist squeak squeak twist*
"A monkey?"
*angry twist, angry twist, balloon loudly pops, awakening the monster*

@SPavel I'm going to make a requst for a Tarrasque balloon animal at my next county fair

GreySage

9:54 PM

@DavidCoffron 65% is pretty significant for a dice game.

@GreySage Because the monopoly A.I.s in digital games are deliberately awful so that players can beat them the majority of the time.

10:11 PM

I've been desperately searching around trying to figure out what dungeon crawls in B/X D&D actually looked like, but, although I've found plenty of extravagant praise for 'the good old days', no one seems to explain what actually happened in them!

Could anyone explain to me how dungeon crawls worked? As I understand it: there was a caller, who acted as the representative of the group for the DM. The group talked to the caller and agreed a course of action, then the caller told the DM. And all the exploration happened in 10 minute turns.

And presumably the caller didn't carry on their role in combat?

10:32 PM

@Ladifas What's B/X D&D ?

@ColinGross Basic/Expert. Moldvay wrote the basic rules book (the red book) for levels 1-3 and Cook wrote the Expert book for levels 4-14. It was one of the versions of OD&D that ran alongside AD&D 1e.

BESW

@ColinGross It's what these answers call "Basic/Expert."

Sorry, I didn't mean OD&D. That's the very original one ('0e').

I mean really the early versions were just a confusing mess. I've still very little idea what the distinctions between all the different versions and authors were.