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KorvinStarmast
KorvinStarmast
2:48 AM
@Miniman Heh, yeah. I'll ask the querent if they have the players handbook.
 
Shalvenay
Shalvenay
3:05 AM
hey there @KorvinStarmast and @DavidCoffron
 
KorvinStarmast
KorvinStarmast
@Shalvenay Hi. ANy chance Rrauj's thoughts on the battle will be added? (Also, did you have any luck with moving things from the char sheet to the macro bar?)
 
Shalvenay
Shalvenay
@KorvinStarmast I don't generally bother with the macrobar, and I might see about adding Rrau's notes in from the last session or so, still a bit of a stuck-in-my-craw
 
KorvinStarmast
KorvinStarmast
@Shalvenay I got so used to using the macro bar in our first game, I always use it.
I found it really helps as you go up in levels with spell casting common spells.
 
David Coffron
David Coffron
3:20 AM
Sorry @Shalvenay
Hi
 
Shalvenay
Shalvenay
how're things going?
 
David Coffron
David Coffron
Things are awesome. I'm just exhausted, just got finished with a concert
 
KorvinStarmast
KorvinStarmast
3:48 AM
@DavidCoffron Playing or as audience member?
 
 
2 hours later…
Magician
Magician
6:03 AM
@BESW We're about to resume our Eyes of the Stone Thief 13A campaign. The party includes Beast, a shapeshifter druid who may or may not have been human once, and Ook, who definitely was human once, but is now an ape monk.
 
BESW
BESW
6:24 AM
Now you just need a human who used to be... a lizard?
Ooh, get yourselves a prince who used to be a frog.
 
Magician
Magician
...in the backup SotDL campaign one of the pixie characters has a talking frog. It's a very dour, miserable frog who claims he used to be a human architect.
 
trogdor
trogdor
or you could just have a dragon, and he was never human,.... and yeah
XD :P
 
Magician
Magician
Daaaark fantasy. (Source)
They did start collecting eyeballs after they got a couple as starting posessions, so there's that.
 
trogdor
trogdor
6:50 AM
are they,... collecting his eyeballs in a minute? because that would be disturbing
 
Magician
Magician
Oh, no, they're her imaginary friends. They collect eyeballs of people who are mean to her..
 
trogdor
trogdor
ah ok
 
 
8 hours later…
David Coffron
David Coffron
2:57 PM
@KorvinStarmast Singing
 
nitsua60
nitsua60
@DavidCoffron Nice. What's the literature?
 
David Coffron
David Coffron
@nitsua60 Ralph Vaughn Williams (Serenade to Music) was our center-piece (with orchestral accompaniment). Other star pieces were Guillaume's Twa Tanbou, Elder's When Music Sounds, and Lassus' Musica Dei Donum Optimi
 
nitsua60
nitsua60
Oh, very nice. Were you happy with the performance?
 
David Coffron
David Coffron
It was alright. The Lassus was split divisi and was a bit shaky for my part, and the basses (me included) missed one entrance but otherwise it went great
My girlfriend did her part great though
 
nitsua60
nitsua60
@DavidCoffron So are you saying the Lassus was 8 parts or 16? (Split choirs?)
@DavidCoffron Brava =)
 
David Coffron
David Coffron
3:06 PM
It was 6 parts, but we weren't in our sections
 
nitsua60
nitsua60
Oh, gotcha.
 
David Coffron
David Coffron
I could barely see the conductor (we surrounded the audience)
@nitsua60 Is there a way to suggest edit like I used to do with less reputation without actually editing a post?
 
nitsua60
nitsua60
@DavidCoffron Nope. With great power comes great power =)
(Unless you want to award enough bounties to drop your rep below the threshold for that privilege.)
When I'm in that position I usually either leave a comment suggesting the edit or drop a line in here: "hey, folks, sanity-check me: would this be a good edit?"
 
David Coffron
David Coffron
Sounds good. I was just going to edit in the tables here without being official to give HellSaint an idea, but it looks like he figured it out.
 
goodguy5
goodguy5
3:25 PM
That cassandra natalie question about time loops is an odd one
 
nitsua60
nitsua60
@DavidCoffron I was also in the middle of editing. Before I discard, what did you do?
 
David Coffron
David Coffron
@nitsua60 I just did a manual rap onto a new text line (before hline), if there is a better way feel free.
 
nitsua60
nitsua60
That's exactly what I was doing--in the second table?
 
David Coffron
David Coffron
Yeah
 
HellSaint
HellSaint
4:03 PM
@goodguy5 I came here just to complain about that, honestly. Jesus Christ that question was everything bad that could be posted.
 
goodguy5
goodguy5
did you also look at the original version before the edit?
 
HellSaint
HellSaint
Also thanks everyone for the help on tables. :)
 
Shalvenay
Shalvenay
hey there @HellSaint
 
HellSaint
HellSaint
@goodguy5 LOL I assumed the edit was just to put the "Broad lol you guys"
 
goodguy5
goodguy5
@HellSaint oh no, it is so much worse than that
I kind of wanted to edit it just so that it's atrocity made my head hurt less
But then I realized I'd just be sanding a turd
 
HellSaint
HellSaint
4:05 PM
I'm not a native english speaker and make a lot of grammar and syntax mistakes, but that is something else.
Hey @Shalvenay
 
Shalvenay
Shalvenay
how're things going?
 
HellSaint
HellSaint
Nice, my most recent table is on high spirits for our games and RPG.se has been helping me alot with DM'ing, although most of it turns out being "talk to your players" haha
 
goodguy5
goodguy5
@HellSaint It's more important than it seems
In fact, it's true of most relationships.
Friends, Spouse, work, etc.
 
HellSaint
HellSaint
Yeah, I'd highly understimated communication value for D&D
 
goodguy5
goodguy5
I'm glad it's working out ^_^
One of my current games has a serious case of My Guy
 
HellSaint
HellSaint
4:16 PM
We have that, but hopefully the My Guy is just an alcoholic and usually turns out benign or not malign at least. I've also talked to them in our Session 0 that while being in character is important, they shouldn't be making the game less fun due to that and most of times you CAN figure out some reason to your character do anything (e.g. "my guy is a selfish prick" - well, you will die if you go alone in the dungeon, so being a selfish prick means you want to work with your group)
I've also asked permission to use deus ex machinas and w/e to prevent something that is going to completely derail the game and make it awful and they granted it, now it's on me to not abuse it haha
 
Shalvenay
Shalvenay
4:31 PM
hey there @Powerdork
 
Powerdork
Powerdork
Ahoy.
 
goodguy5
goodguy5
@HellSaint he's a slightly annoying selfish prick. not enough to be an active problem, but JUST enough to cheese my grits, if you get what I'm saying
 
Shalvenay
Shalvenay
@Powerdork how're things going?
 
Powerdork
Powerdork
Decently, given everything.
 
Shalvenay
Shalvenay
5:13 PM
hey there @Tiggerous
 
Tiggerous
Tiggerous
6:08 PM
@Shalvenay Good evening. I love how quiet it is in here on weekends.
 
Rubiksmoose
Rubiksmoose
@HellSaint Be Nice still applies guys btw.
@Rubiksmoose cc @goodguy5 not to be a jerk but things were getting a bit mean-spirited IMO.
 
goodguy5
goodguy5
6:26 PM
@Rubiksmoose tbh, I was trying to keep it reigned in, but you're right
unless you're talking about the guy in my live game, in which case. that guy sucks
 
kviiri
kviiri
7:20 PM
@HellSaint "Talk to your players/GM" is the real Rule Zero.
 
Shalvenay
Shalvenay
@kviiri although, sadly, some players aren't too keen on talking things out
 
Rubiksmoose
Rubiksmoose
@kviiri It is amazing how many issues can be solved by the simple act of communicating with each other. Though "simple" does not always mean easy.
 
Shalvenay
Shalvenay
7:43 PM
hey there @Curio, welcome to the RPG.SE lair :)
 
Curio
Curio
Thanks!
 
Rubiksmoose
Rubiksmoose
As you can see it is rather quiet right now lol
 
Curio
Curio
What do you usually talk about here?
 
Rubiksmoose
Rubiksmoose
@Curio The main focus is tabletop RPG games (like D&D as a prominent example). But sometimes we just shoot the breeze. RPG talk is the focus of course so that takes priority over other things.
 
ACuriousMind
ACuriousMind
Hey there @Shalvenay :)
 
Rubiksmoose
Rubiksmoose
7:48 PM
@Curio apropos of your avatar, a recent popular chat topic has also been live nest cams of a pair of nesting eagles in Estonia lol.
 
Curio
Curio
Nice!
However my avatar is pretty random. Curio is the name of a bird, however this isn't the meaning of the name
 
Rubiksmoose
Rubiksmoose
@Curio No worries, it was more an excuse to tell you that then anything.
 
Curio
Curio
XD
 
Rubiksmoose
Rubiksmoose
(though it looks like the link got unpinned from the star board sadly)
 
Shalvenay
Shalvenay
@ACuriousMind hey there, how're things going?
 
ACuriousMind
ACuriousMind
7:56 PM
@Shalvenay Pretty nicely! Got a long weekend coming up - maybe we could try to play next Sunday? I refuse to believe we're fully cursed by the time zones ;)
 
Shalvenay
Shalvenay
@ACuriousMind aye, we can look to that
although it does depend on if my RL game is happening then or not
@ACuriousMind and Pixie has a con that day -- evening US time could maybe still work, but I'm not sure if that'd be too late for you
 
ACuriousMind
ACuriousMind
@Shalvenay Ah, well, that probably won't work then :/ - I can stay up a bit, but I'm not on the "go to bed when the sun rises" schedule anymore ;)
 
Shalvenay
Shalvenay
@ACuriousMind drat :/
 
 
2 hours later…
Shalvenay
Shalvenay
10:19 PM
hey again @HellSaint
hey there @Jorn, welcome to the RPG.SE lair :)
 
HellSaint
HellSaint
Hey there
 
Mike Q
Mike Q
Stay a while, and listen!
 
HellSaint
HellSaint
@Rubiksmoose Sorry, didn't mean to offend.
 
Jorn
Jorn
Hi y'all
 
NautArch
NautArch
howdy @Shalvenay and everyone else
 
Rubiksmoose
Rubiksmoose
10:20 PM
@HellSaint you didn't offend me I just wanting to keep it at the forefront of our consciousness. :)
 
Shalvenay
Shalvenay
how're things going?
 
HellSaint
HellSaint
@Rubiksmoose I know I didn't offend you, I meant I didn't want to offend the person asking the question haha
 
Jorn
Jorn
@DavidCoffron suggested I come here to ask for insights on my homebrew Wizard tradition. Anyone feel like taking a look?
 
Shalvenay
Shalvenay
what system @Jorn?
 
Rubiksmoose
Rubiksmoose
@HellSaint oh....yeah that would make more sense wouldn't it lol. The second part still stands though :) Be Nice applies to people that aren't on Chat or on SE as well. Just a good thing to remember.
 
Mike Q
Mike Q
10:22 PM
I'll take a look please
 
Jorn
Jorn
D&D 5e
 
NautArch
NautArch
Has anyone looked at the UA on Order Clerics? Looks pretty neato.
 
Rubiksmoose
Rubiksmoose
@NautArch I did and I agree.
 
NautArch
NautArch
@Jorn What do the strikethroughs mean?
@Rubiksmoose If i get a chance to make a cleric, may go that way :)
and i love the combat plusses and the RP with Orders Demand.
 
Jorn
Jorn
I tried editing them out while still letting the answer make sense... I guess iterating a design is hard in a single question
 
Mike Q
Mike Q
10:26 PM
@Jorn I thought the arcane tradition abilities only kick in at levels 2, 6, 10, 14. So the stuff that comes in at other levels, it seems a bit out of place.
 
NautArch
NautArch
@Jorn ah, i'm not sure that's an SE approved way of doing things :) I understand wanting to keep it, but that's what edit history is for. Unfortunately, we' re not really a work in progress type of site.
@Jorn i may also be unclear on this lore-wise, but what does knowing a demon's name do in 5e?
 
Jorn
Jorn
There's only one of those, the level 20 feature. I can live without it, but it seems flavorful
Knowing the name helps with controlling the demon, see the Conjure Greater Demon spell (XGE)
 
NautArch
NautArch
@Jorn If youroll over the chat line to whom your responding, you can click on down arrow to reply to them so folks can track your conversation.
 
Jorn
Jorn
@NautArch Thanks, will do
@NautArch Would you like me to re-edit and take the strikethroughs out?
 
Mike Q
Mike Q
@Jorn For wizards, the Unrestricted Conjuration stuff about alignment, I don't know if that really applies to them
 
Jorn
Jorn
10:31 PM
@MikeQ That's why I replaced the 3.5 version with the "you don't need fresh human blood" version
 
NautArch
NautArch
@Jorn ooh, i'm liking this idea. Will you have a lot of roleplay in your world?
 
Jorn
Jorn
@NautArch Absolutely! The campaign I'm playing the 3.5 Malconvoker in has significantly more RP time than combat time
 
Mike Q
Mike Q
For the legion thing, being able to control another creature is almost equivalent to having another turn, so that's quite powerful. Maybe tone it down to "When you summon a thing, you can summon and control another creature up to CR __"
 
Shalvenay
Shalvenay
mind filling me in on the baseline Malconvoker's thing? I haven't ever dealt with the 3.5e version of that class before
 
NautArch
NautArch
@Jorn Cool, just making sure because the 2nd level expertise is more about RP than combat and 2nd level abilities are a big deal. But expertise in multiple things like that IS a big deal if you do alot of RP.
@Shalvenay @Jorn Same here, but i'm looking at this more about abilities. Understanding the basis may help provide some ideas, too.
 
Mike Q
Mike Q
10:34 PM
I think it should get access to a lower-level ability that stops (or at least, reduces the chance) the summoned creature from becoming hostile to you
 
NautArch
NautArch
I'm not sure that the vial of blood doesn't already work with the focus.
 
Mike Q
Mike Q
Otherwise most of the tradition's features are kind of unreliable until 14th level
 
NautArch
NautArch
it doesn't have a cost nor is it consumed.
 
Jorn
Jorn
It starts out with "You have always honed your conjuration magic beyond
that of your other spells, even flirting with the idea of
summoning powerful fiends to do your bidding, but you
never actually carried through with such a disreputable act ."
 
Shalvenay
Shalvenay
@MikeQ yeah, rogue summons are no-fun. heck, I've even had Druids grumble about that sort of thing :P (chasing down a summon that got away)
 
Mike Q
Mike Q
10:37 PM
I would suggest something like: When you summon an evil creature, choose a number of creatures up to your intelligence modifier. The summoned creature cannot be willingly hostile against those targeted creatures.
 
Jorn
Jorn
@NautArch The expertise helps with gaining control over the summoned demons: Knowing the true name gives disadvantage on the demon's save to break free, expertise gives +6 (at that level, +8 later) with +4-5 on Arcana checks, so the player should be able to win the contest most of the time
 
Mike Q
Mike Q
Or, When you summon an evil creature, it cannot be willingly hostile to your or your allies for a number of rounds equal to your intelligence modifier
 
Jorn
Jorn
@MikeQ That's an interesting option. How would it compare to the previous iteration "the summoned demons are not hostile to you and your allies"?
 
NautArch
NautArch
@MikeQ I like that. I also noticed in the spell text the blood is consumed if you make the circle and that protects you and anyone in the circle.
 
Mike Q
Mike Q
@Jorn This way there is still a limitation, and still a chance that it can backfire, but it's at least reliable to some degree
 
NautArch
NautArch
10:41 PM
@Jorn i think not hostile to you or allies is OP. The spell itself is pretty clear that they're hostile to all and only the circle protects you. BYpassing that means there is never a need for the blood AND everyone is safe.
 
Jorn
Jorn
@NautArch I wanted something a little more reliable than that circle. I don't think my party's Fighter would appreciate my summons while I'm standing there safely
 
NautArch
NautArch
@Jorn That's where @MikeQ's idea comes in with non-hostile for rounds equal to your intelligence modifiers.
the circle then becomes the backup.
 
Mike Q
Mike Q
Thematically, it's the situation of "Ha, it's working! I'm doing it! I'm... wait... oh no! The demon has broken free!", which seems to be in tune with the 3.5 malconvoker's flavor
 
Jorn
Jorn
@NautArch It sure gives a sense of urgency. Finish the fight in 5 rounds or get done in by your own summon
 
NautArch
NautArch
@Jorn the summon doesn't necessarily attack you or your allies. THey're hostile to all. Equal chances :)
 
Jorn
Jorn
10:46 PM
:44147391 Yes and no. The demon gets disadvantage on the save if you say its true name. You get to learn its true name reliably, but it still gets its saves (be it with disadvantage)
 
NautArch
NautArch
@Jorn That save is a charisma save against your DC and not against an ability check. Am I missing something (again?) :D
@Jorn heh, just realized that. But once you've made the check, it's still just disadvantage on the save (which is good).
 
Jorn
Jorn
@NautArch It might be too far fetched though. Could just make it "When you summon ... you always learn its true name"
 
Mike Q
Mike Q
What's so great about knowing something's true name?
 
NautArch
NautArch
@Jorn I think that's a little heavy. at 6th level having that level of control is a big deal.
but also note that you don't get 4th level spells until 7th level. SO that ability doesn't actually do anything until you level up.
 
Jorn
Jorn
 
NautArch
NautArch
10:49 PM
@MikeQ knowing the true name of a greater demon (per Xanathar's SUmmon Greater Demon) gives them disadvantage on the save to stay under your influence.
 
Mike Q
Mike Q
Yes, I realized. I was trying to make a Truenamer joke and it went poorly.
Much like the Truenamer.
 
Jorn
Jorn
@NautArch Right, but I had to fit features affecting 5th (Lesser) and 7th (Greater) level to a 6th level feature (or move the Tradition feature levels, which seemed worse)
 
NautArch
NautArch
@Jorn Hmm, that's tough. I like the pairing, and maybe that's why it's 'delayed'. Not having to have blood AND the likely disadvantage is a nice pairing.
 
Mike Q
Mike Q
I'd feel ripped off if I got an unusable class feature
 
David Coffron
David Coffron
@Jorn If you switch Unrestricted Conjuration and Safe Summoning and give a save against Safe Summoning for high CR demons, you solve a lot of the problems
 
Jorn
Jorn
10:53 PM
@DavidCoffron With Unrestricted not giving full control any more, that could work
 
David Coffron
David Coffron
Level 14 features is in tier 3 and you can really pile on some powerful effects.
Unrestricted Conjuration is one such effect
(compare it to the Death Domain cleric features that come in at tier 3)
 
Jorn
Jorn
@DavidCoffron Would you suggest restoring the full control line if I put the feature at that level 14?
or keep it with the Intelligence modifier number of rounds
 
David Coffron
David Coffron
You could. It would not be particularly unbalanced that late into the game
 
Mike Q
Mike Q
Honestly I think that the tradition, as written in the question, gives too-circumstantial benefits and is unreliable to use
 
David Coffron
David Coffron
But you will have Int 5 and most encounters don't last 5 rounds anyway, so it doesn't make a difference most of the time
 
Jorn
Jorn
10:58 PM
@DavidCoffron The difference is whether you need to fight your own summons directly after combat or not
 
David Coffron
David Coffron
@Jorn You can dismiss them as a reaction, remember
 
Mike Q
Mike Q
From my understanding of the 3.5 class, the whole theme revolves around having limited control over summoned evil creatures. But the tradition you posed doesn't get that ability until level 14 - so for the first 13 levels, it's basically a tradition-less wizard with a handful of backfire-prone abilities
 
David Coffron
David Coffron
Although the permanent version does last for 1 hour, I forgot about the duration..
 
BESW
BESW
@MikeQ Secrets of Cats tells us that if a cat knows your True Name, it might be able to dominate your mind.
 
Jorn
Jorn
@MikeQ Limited is relative. 3.5 Allowed you to boost the relevant skills so high that it was hard (if not impossible) to fail the Deceptive Summoning check
 
Mike Q
Mike Q
11:02 PM
But 5e is all about simplification. Relying on skills to make your summoning abilities work, it seems too complex.
Ok, let's back up: In 5e, what is the minimum level that a wizard can summon evil creatures anyway?
 
NautArch
NautArch
@MikeQ Summon Lesser Demon is a 3rd level spell, so 5th level.
 
David Coffron
David Coffron
@MikeQ @NautArch 4th level if it is a wizard 1/warlock 3 using find familiar to summon an imp or quasit
 
Mike Q
Mike Q
Huh, ok. And what was wrong about giving them Find Familiar at level 2?
 
Jorn
Jorn
How about this, much simplified:
> Level 6: Deceptive Summons When you summon a demon or devil, you learn the fiend's true name.
> Level 6: Safe summoning When you lose control of a demon or devil you summoned, you can use your Reaction to dismiss it.
> Level 10: Fiendish Legion When you use a Conjuration spell to summon one or more demons or devils, you can summon one additional creature of the same kind.
> Level 14: Unrestricted Conjuration When you summon a demon or devil, it cannot break free of your control and is friendly towards you for a number of rounds equal to your Intelligence m…
 
David Coffron
David Coffron
@MikeQ much more useful out of combat with the other forms than similar features of other arcane traditions
 
Mike Q
Mike Q
11:08 PM
@Jorn I would switch the 10th and 14th benefits. I don't want to summon two devils because that means there's an even greater chance that a devil will attack me
 
Jorn
Jorn
@DavidCoffron Yeah, that was a good point. I didn't think about the special abilities like the imp's invisibility
 
David Coffron
David Coffron
@MikeQ I concurr, plus you want to give the Unrestricted Conjuration feature as soon as possible as it is the crux behind the archetype (flavor-wise)
 
Jorn
Jorn
Wouldn't that make the level 10 benefit a bit too powerful?
 
David Coffron
David Coffron
@Jorn If you want to give a 2nd level feature that has similar flavour and compares to the Illusionist one as I discussed. You can do the Mage Hand spell but it appears like a [demon of some kind] and gets a couple extra uses (similar to what the Arcane Trickster gets)
@Jorn Not really. The Int rounds thing makes it so you don't get the full duration (1 hour usually) like you would with other conjuration spells that require higher spell slots. You are sacrificing duration for power, which is fine
 
Mike Q
Mike Q
^ Yeah. In most games, this means you spend a spell slot, and get to control a demon for up to 4-5 rounds
 
David Coffron
David Coffron
11:13 PM
@Jorn You might even be able to increase it to Int minutes and still be fine since it still can be broken by failing concentration saves
 
Mike Q
Mike Q
I would also include a term like "it can't willingly break free" - So there's still the danger of someone dominating/hijacking your summoned creature
 
Jorn
Jorn
Well this was fun, but I have to go as I have a D&D game tomorrow
what would you like me to do with my question? Update with what we discussed, restore to the first iteration, or keep as is?
 
David Coffron
David Coffron
@Jorn Do as you see fit. I would go back to your original iteration in case someone has suggestions you like better than the ones you got here.
 

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