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12:36 AM
@CTWind yes, verbal component not needed with that meta magic
 
Ben
1:21 AM
Hey @MikeQ, just working in my character sheet - what's the syntax for adding a crit "range"?
I have the Champion's Improved Critical, which allows a crit on a 19 0r 20, so I'm wondering if I can add that to the roll20 sheet
 
1d20cs>19
 
Ben
@MikeQ SO just to confirm, I put that in the "Crit Range" box of my weapons?
 
Oh. Ummm.... Lemme check.
Above is the general formula for their roll syntax, but it may be special because of these sheets
Ok just put a 19 in there
 
Ben
Cool :)
 
2:14 AM
can we get this question reopened? I'd like to answer it. rpg.stackexchange.com/questions/136626/…
 
@ravery I voted to reopen
 
@goodguy5 thanks
 
 
2 hours later…
4:26 AM
@Shalvenay @KorvinStarmast and others may be interested: tower audio from Anchorage apt during/after the Alaskan earthquake
 
@BESW On a relephant note, I ran the 5e gestalt experiment earlier tonight, and it featured a defective polymorph wand
In the end, the heroes became adoptive godparents of a wooden crate that had become sentient after being indefinitely polymorphed into a griffon
 
5:17 AM
Hey all
Should I allow a new player to swap classes?
I have a new player who is currently a 1 barbarian/3 ranger/1 fighter, and want to be 5 barbarian. Since at the start of the game he didn't fully understand the consequences of multi-classing (ie not getting ASI or extra attack). Should I just allow him to swap his ranger and fighter levels for barbarian?
 
@Youjay AL, or just a personal table?
 
just personal table
 
@Youjay I would treat it as a char rebuild
and discuss with them that this is a non-standard (albeit not completely verboten, AL allows one rebuild at low levels AIUI) action
 
@Youjay Would letting the player swap classes let the player to have more fun?
 
@MikeQ I suppose it would, because it would give him abilities he inherently thought he'd get but didn't. However, he has an animal companion that he likes (i'll be it never uses), would he just loose that? or how else could he be a level 5 barbarian with a pet wolf?
We can't exactly have the wolf disintegrate with a snap of the DM's fingers could we?
 
5:26 AM
No, it doesn't have to disintegrate, but it would be demoted from "animal companion" to "pet"
i.e., regular wolf, no bonuses from the ranger class
But more importantly, you're dealing with a new player who didn't initially understand the rules
 
6:16 AM
AL allows unlimited rebuilds up to level 5
but yeah, in a home game I'd allow it as long as they're not constantly swapping levels or something
the important thing is that everyone has fun
given the reasoning is that he didn't realize how it'd weaken him, I'd allow it
That said, he wouldn't retain any previous class features
up to you as DM how you explain it in-universe, if at all
 
6:30 AM
 
 
3 hours later…
9:01 AM
5e: if Ftr, Pa, Bb, and Cl are banned classes, who now stands out (for you) as the martial go-to(s)?
(Adventure contemplated is "dirty dozen" style: irregulars in an active war. All the "real" soldiers are elsewhere!)
 
9:12 AM
@nitsua60 Monk and Ranger
 
That sounds alright. Characters are all dwarves, so neither of those will synergize very well. (Which is good: if it would make for a good combatant then it should be elsewhere in the army!)
 
What about rogue?
 
9:36 AM
Yeah, rogue is still there for a striker, but also doesn't synergize well with dwarven traits. Sounds good to me.
I just wouldn't want there to be one class that stands out as the "must-pick."
(But there are missions like assassination/infiltration/recon for which those classes would be good--not to fear.)
 
 
2 hours later…
11:16 AM
[ SmokeDetector | MS ] Bad keyword in body, blacklisted website in body, pattern-matching website in body (294): unfashionable vigor complements flow inside the genital by wergmaada on rpg.SE
 
@nitsua60 Well, caster-that's-sometimes-martial, but moon druid wouldn't be a bad (sometimes) frontliner. But yeah, of the remaining options I'd probably agree with ranger (since it's not too crazy to make a str-focused one), then rogue (between finesse weapons using Str, having access to medium armor, and still being able to start with 14 dex and 16 str, they're probably the most viable race for rogue besides the ones that give +dex).
Monk I'd put lower than those just because they're one of the more MAD 5e classes, and not starting with a 16 in your primary stat's rough in that case.
 
11:37 AM
 
 
3 hours later…
2:19 PM
@nitsua60 pretty cool, thx
@nitsua60 Grappler feat str rogue might be useful there
@MikeQ What was cool about that was the discussion we had in character about "that's a monster" versus "no, we just saw the creation of a sentient being, a life" and whether to kill it or let it go. We agreed pretty well that letting it go might have an impact on the local ecosystem, but there are already monsters in the wild. What's one more?
So off it flew, still somewhat confused about how it was no longer a wooden crate. As Shal pointed out, it hadn't learned any survival skills growing up, so it was at some risk of not surviving very long.
 
2:38 PM
@CTWind True, though a bunch of classes won't be starting with 16, so hopefully it's balanced among players. (Think the hardest thing's going to be adjusting my starting assumption that every L1 PC has +5 attack modifier.)
 
uhmmmm... is there anyone who plays Pathfinder online right now?
 
3:01 PM
@nitsua60 I don't see why a dwarf wouldn't make a good ranger. Just use melee instead of ranged. The Pathfinder icon ranger is a dwarf. And tapestry monks. Replace "ki" with "ale points".
 
3:31 PM
@goodguy5 good call, I am writing up out little adventure from last night, maybe I can fit "tapestry monks" into the prose.
 
 
1 hour later…
4:36 PM
@goodguy5 Or Crossbow Rangers!
But seriously, Dwarves are very ranger-like by association
Rangers are associated with survival skills, survival skills are associated with axes (they're good survival tools), axes are associated with dwarves
Rangers are associated with life in the wild, life in the wild is associated with not shaving, not shaving is associated with beards, beards are associated with dwarves
 
4:51 PM
@Zachiel Pathfinder online still exists??? I thought the project collapsed.
 
@MikeQ No, I mean people that is online that plays (possibly DMs) Pathfinder.
 
Ah ok. Well I'm currently online and have plenty of experience with it, both as player and DM
 
I'm not willing to post this as a question because it's opinion based but... one of my players is trying to optimize crafting wondrous items, and he'd like to get his hands on the elven family heirloom book that that gives a +2 to spellcraft - problem, he's not elven and no shop in town has one such tome.
How would you go from there? I can have him try to get the tome from the elven ambassador in town, but I guess it's not an item that elves part with, usually. And I don't want to go too much off coutrse from the adventure path...
 
I'm not sure what item you're referring to. Is it a wondrous item that adds a competence bonus? Or is it it in that fuzzy territory of masterwork tools for a skill?
As for what to do, yes that's kind of a matter of opinion. Since the most expensive part of crafting is the time and resource requirement, a +2 bonus probably won't seriously unbalance the game.
Personally I'd consider turning it into a sidequest. Pathfinder APs tend to have tangents and branches, so you could modify an existing part of the AP. Or you could create your own content for it.
 
@MikeQ here
 
5:07 PM
Huh, it's a +2 to +4 bonus. A bit more powerful than I thought.
Still, unless them having the book somehow breaks the AP story, this is a matter of DM preference. There will often be times when a player wants something outside of what their character build (race, class, etc) gives them, and it's up to the DM to decide whether it's attainable, and if so, how.
 
What does crafting wondrous items (and optimization thereof) entail?
 
@kviiri Math. Lots and lots of math.
 
@kviiri higher spellcraft check = shorter creation time = more items created at a discount in the same time while the adventure still goes on.
 
Crafting an item costs materials, there's a complex but roughly consistent subsystem of determining the market cost for the desired item
Usually the crafting cost is half the market cost, but sometimes it isn't if you have certain feats and traits
 
Is it one of those features where you make infinite money without even having to look at a dungeon again, or one of those where you just get the items you want at cheaper than market price and without concern for availability?
 
5:15 PM
@kviiri second one
 
Items are cheaper this way, and you can customize them, at the added cost of in-game time and annoying your DM with spreadsheets
 
and the city they're in is quarantined, has a predefinite list of magic items available and they're time-pressed to solve problems (right now)
 
@Zachiel That's a relief at least
 
Crafting items also takes time based on their calculated market cost, which is sometimes measured in days but sometimes not, and you can make different amounts of progress based on how much daily time you spend crafting
 
@MikeQ I got the impression that it's capped at 8h/day
(which already provoked some snarky comments about labor unions)
 
5:18 PM
There is a cap of 8 cumulative hours per day, yes. The cap may be lower if adventuring.
But there are also ways to accomplish more than 8 hours of work in 8 hours, because feats
 
I personally dislike "in-game time as a currency" unless it's backed up with some simple mechanic the GM can rely on
 
Simple mechanic? You're asking about the wrong system, sorry
 
@MikeQ hehe :P
 
@MikeQ the player is going to craft a ring of sustenance so he'll be able to work while others sleep or eat. Poor sod.
 
The ring of sustenance has limitations on it. Casters still need some amount of rest.
I'm sure there's questions about this on the stack because it's also one of those weird areas where the rules sorta conflict and are resolved in a complicated way
 
5:21 PM
@MikeQ not a caster, luckily.
 
Ah, they have the Master Craftsman feat?
 
Pat of War mystics have a class feature that lets them not need spells for crafting.
They also have free buffs for the party like blur on several people at once and a lot of versatility, and free buffs to hit. But hey I trust Dreamscarred Press so it must be good.
 
@kviiri Although crafting in PF is really versatile and definitely gives an edge to the party, it's not as exploitable as it was in 3.5 (i.e. trade XP for items that give class features, then earn more XP)
 
But hey, even swashbuckler or investigator self buffs look OP to me right now and I'm restatting all enemies to be a little mor durable than "dead with a crit"
@MikeQ well, they were underleveled at least.
 
@MikeQ Huh, I see... yea, I always keep forgetting which one of those had a more exploitable crafting system
 
5:26 PM
It can be used to give the equivalent of some of the simpler feats and features, like those that give flat bonuses to defenses; instead of investing a feat to get +2 Will, you can make an item that gives a typed but obscure bonus instead. Or because of how bonuses stack, you could make multiple cheaper items with different bonus types.
Again it consumes resources, so it's more powerful in campaigns where the PCs get lots of money and have plenty of downtime. This includes organized play, where characters are assumed to have indefinite downtime in between sessions.
 
Yea, the part that usually irks me about crafting system is that there's an assumption that downtime is a cost, while it usually isn't, in practice. Especially if the GM hasn't planned for it
Many people pay lip service to "the world is constantly alive" but having the GM perform arbitrarily long periods of "simulation" on the fly is a bit too much to ask for, IMO
 
@kviiri yes thank you. I always do downtime between sessions so that I have time to prepare the weeks or months that have passed
 
Also, since crafting can be used to make specific magic items (many of which have significantly powerful effects), crafting ends up as one of those areas where the system rewards players in-game for studying the system out-of-game
 
5:42 PM
@DavidCoffron Aye
@MikeQ That's a good point
@MikeQ What's the PF model of magic item "secrecy"? Do they have an open list in PHB like 4e does, or in DMG like 5e does?
 
Dunno what you mean. Almost everything's on pfsrd, which is accessible to anyone
 
^
 
Although certain items may be hard to find because the name was somehow changed. Especially items that were introduced in APs and modules.
 
@MikeQ Oh ok, that makes it more akin to 4e in that respect
Or well, I'm honestly not sure what the intent of "hiding" magical items in the DMG is in 5e; concealment from players or just a more efficient allocation of pages
 
@kviiri Well, in 3e or 4e magic items are necessary to the math of combat and much more, in 5e they should just be optional cool things that you aren't really expected to get your hands on.
 
5:58 PM
> My friends usually belong to one of the three schools:
> - "players shouldn't know what magic items exist because that invites metagaming or ruins the sense of wonder",
> - "ideally players shouldn't know what magic items exist, but since they'll know anyway there's no point trying to keep a secret"
> - "knowing what items exist and what they do makes the game smoother and gives the players more agency"
 
The first one doesn't make sense. You can't control your players' knowledge of the system.
You also can't control how your players feel.
 
@MikeQ Hasn't ever stopped a sufficiently determined GM
My first GM was like that. He was also of the school that if one of our characters would scout ahead, he'd take the player to a separate room to tell them what they saw :)
Well ok, we played 4e, so there was only so much he could do to prevent us from seeing the magic items (they're plainly in the PHB, impossible to miss)
 
@kviiri while the other players looked at campaign notes behind the screen XD
 
@kviiri that's one reason why I like online play, you can whisper things to players (like when I have room descriptions preprepared and we are in split party)
 
And I mean, "players knowing the rules is a necessary evil" seems to be a relatively common sentiment too
 
6:10 PM
(Although in person play is still superior for other reasons fmpov)
 
@goodguy5 They'll be okay, but not amazing. Which is what I'm hoping for: don't want to have a list of classes available where exactly one is structly superior to all the others.
 
@DavidCoffron I should really try online play at some point
I'd prefer it over text though. I like to think I have good English skills but when people speak too fast or have unusual accents it gets really hard to follow.
 
Players knowing the rules is necessary period. When the players and DM are essentially playing different games, this causes differing expectations and disagreements about how the game should go.
Player knowledge of the campaign is a separate matter.
 
@MikeQ Yuh. I don't really get the hate for rules
Since my thesis code has been working smoothly for a while now, I've started drafting that perennial DnD 4e campaign project of mine again... mostly by scraping a looot of content
 
6:27 PM
@kviiri I once liked the idea of having fresh players with no knowledge of the rules but... it works better in systems without the Ivory Tower design (know what options work for your game and take those)
 
@Zachiel Yea
I like playing with first-timers in general though
Not necessarily DnD
 
@kviiri I've never played by text. Would probably be.a nice change of pace though
 
@DavidCoffron I tried once, but got bogged down by other responsibilities in life. Still went way better than my attempts to play over audio :)
 
6:45 PM
Are we talking text by chat or by forum?
 
I was thinking about chat
forum is too slow-paced
 
agreed
 
7:18 PM
A brief interlude regarding programming: today's weird bug exposed
Python apparently allows for two sets with the same elements to have a different "order"
Hence my program which uses the (admittedly ugly) string representation of sets as its output fails to match some sets as being the same
 
 
2 hours later…
9:34 PM
People play DND on forums? The most experience I've had playing DND online is using Roll20 or having a friend Skype call in from wherever he is.
 
@JohnCarroll Play By Post (using a variety of systems) is a thing, yes
 
@JohnCarroll Yes, people play all sorts of role-playing games on forums, and D&D is very well known and popular, so it's used for some of those games.
 
I've played forum games before that were RPG's of sorts, but I never thought of doing DND on it. Other systems might work better if they are tailored for that format.
it's all interesting to think about
 
@JohnCarroll I think that may have become more of an option with D&D 5, compared to previous editions.
 
@JohnCarroll Yeah, I've had success playing Fate and Roll For Shoes in Stack chat (the RPG chat rooms have a dicebot built in).
 
9:43 PM
giantitp.com/forums/… Here's an example from the OOTS forum.
But yeah, even with D&D 5 it doesn't seem very popular for forum games.
 
The text and forum format is generally more suited for systems that don't rely on spacial tactics, dynamic visuals, or battle maps
 
@MikeQ to that end, my PbP experience was with Fate Accelerated, although it was sloppy as heck because I was trying to DM while still learning the system
 

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