TRPG General Chat

goodguy5

5:00 PM

merrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrr

okay, sorry. I'm done

NautArch

@Rubiksmoose Found another possible dupe...

goodguy5

They call him "dupe slayer"

Rubiksmoose

@NautArch I think what they are saying is that they want it to be under the control of the player but not acting as a controlled mount.

NautArch

@Rubiksmoose then the last one I just submitted seems like the dupe

I don't love the all related links in one comment, but I get it for cleanliness :)

2

Q: Does a player control his summoned steed?

There are many ways to create new creatures in D&D 5e, one of which is animate objects which gives the player full control of the creatures when he/she uses a bonus action: As a bonus action, you can mentally command any creature you made with this spell... You decide what action the creature...

^the dupe?

KorvinStarmast

@goodguy I think this is why you are not getting up votes

7 days long, during which a character sleeps for at least 42 hours and performs no more than 14 hours of light activity, such as reading, talking, eating, or standing watch. If the rest is interrupted by a period of strenuous activity - at least 7 hours of walking, fighting, casting spells, or similar adventuring activity - the characters must begin the rest again to gain any benefit from it.

Do the math: what are they doing for the other 72 hours, meditating?

GreySage

5:08 PM

@KorvinStarmast They're purring like cats to speed up their recovery.

KorvinStarmast

I think Andras has a good point: it was an optional rule that wasn't very well fleshed out.

Xirema

@goodguy5 24.75 is correct, according to my program, for an AC0 creature.

Also: yeah, Hand Crossbows are p. good.

Still examining all the stats to see if/where Agonizing Blast takes over.

David Coffron

@goodguy5 I did... Just a bit late lol

Xirema

Oh damn.

Stats for Roll [[Level 17 Hand Crossbow vs AC0]x3]
====
Total Possible Rolls: 3.73248E8 (373248000)
Mean: 41.850000
Median: +43
Mode: +44 (3.7719144E7)
80% Range: [+31,+48]
95% Range: [+26,+51]
99.5% Range: [+14,+54]

Stats for Roll [[Level 17 Agonizing Blast vs AC0]x4]
====
Total Possible Rolls: 1.6E13 (16000000000000)
Mean: 41.000000
Median: +41
Mode: +42 (8.5123206884E11)
80% Range: [+31,+51]
95% Range: [+25,+56]
99.5% Range: [+17,+62]

41.85 vs 41.00.

@goodguy5, you might have just broken the Hexblade meta. =O

Carcer

what are we on about

KorvinStarmast

5:16 PM

@Xirema Why are you using armor class 0?

That seems to me to have no practical application in game.

Xirema

@KorvinStarmast I'm using all armor classes, but posting all of them takes up like 5 pages. Working on collating everything.

Kieran Mullen

Can anyone give me typical strength for a vampire in VtR? I would like to pitch an answer to the question about fighting styles but I only have CoD and DtD books, and don't have a good idea of the typical vamp Strength.

KorvinStarmast

Earthquake in Tennessee, I am trying to discern if it is part of the New Madrid fault system, or not. BRB

Xirema

More drastic results for other ACs though.

Stats for Roll [[Level 17 Hand Crossbow vs AC16]x3]
====
Total Possible Rolls: 3.73248E8 (373248000)
Mean: 37.500000
Median: +41
Mode: +44 (2.6825796E7)
80% Range: [+26,+47]
95% Range: [+14,+50]
99.5% Range: [0,+54]

Stats for Roll [[Level 17 Agonizing Blast vs AC16]x4]
====
Total Possible Rolls: 1.6E13 (16000000000000)
Mean: 34.700000
Median: +35
Mode: +35 (6.07427910432E11)
80% Range: [+21,+48]
95% Range: [+13,+54]
99.5% Range: [+6,+61]

Carcer

Kieran: you mean literally just an average vampire's strength score?

Xirema

5:18 PM

37.5 vs 34.7

KorvinStarmast

@Xirema At least that one's rock solid in its in game application.

Kieran Mullen

@Carcer Yes, typical score. They have a player who wants to use a particular style and wanted to know if it's overpowered.

Xirema

Stats for Roll [[Level 17 Hand Crossbow vs AC20]x3]
====
Total Possible Rolls: 3.73248E8 (373248000)
Mean: 28.800000
Median: +29
Mode: +29 (2.5162704E7)
80% Range: [+13,+45]
95% Range: [0,+49]
99.5% Range: [0,+54]

Stats for Roll [[Level 17 Agonizing Blast vs AC20]x4]
====
Total Possible Rolls: 1.6E13 (16000000000000)
Mean: 26.300000
Median: +26
Mode: +21 (5.571156832E11)
80% Range: [+11,+42]
95% Range: [0,+50]
99.5% Range: [0,+59]

Kieran Mullen

I was going to start by assuming the attack was Strength + Brawl, and see how the style shapes up.

I don't own VtR so I don't know if it's typically boosted by some splat ability.

Carcer

2-3 dots is average, isn't it? If my memory is correct vampires aren't inherently just stronger than normal humans, it's the vigor discipline abilities that are all supernatural strength

@Xirema what's the basis for these calculations

whatever it is we're doing I want to have a go with anydice

Xirema

5:25 PM

@Carcer I have a probability calculator I'm feeding these values into. I don't know how to convert it to anydice.

Basically, we're optimizing for Hexblade DPR.

So stack feats, Invocations, whatever to improve the outcomes.

Rubiksmoose

@NautArch oooh maybe yeah

Carcer

yeah, the point is that I want to convert it to anydice

is Improved Pact Weapon involved

Xirema

lol, fair enough.

@Carcer Yes.

Although it's not strictly necessary, since Hand Crossbows are valid pact weapons as-is.

It does improve DPR though if the crossbow isn't already a +1 or better.

Carcer

so what's assumed

David Coffron

@Xirema what level?

Carcer

5:34 PM

17 appears assumed by the calculations above, so eldritch blasting 4 times

Xirema

@DavidCoffron I'm testing all levels. Level 11 is the odd one out, where Eldritch Blast wins.

(according to my program, anyways)

David Coffron

@Xirema you looked into IPW with GFB/BB yet?

Xirema

@DavidCoffron No, but you can't use a crossbow with those.

David Coffron

@Xirema oh is it crossbow specific? Or just Warlock DPR?

Xirema

(I can add them, but my gut instinct is that they'll fall short due to the lower number of overall attacks. Hexblades add a LOT of damage from Lifedrinker)

NautArch

5:45 PM

@Rubiksmoose we're both out of close votes :(

Rubiksmoose

@NautArch yup :'(

NautArch

@Rubiksmoose interesting bit about the seamless unit thing

Rubiksmoose

@NautArch I got my answer in 1 minute after it was closed though lol. First time that has happened to me.

NautArch

@Rubiksmoose gonna downvote ya :D

you may want to adjust the first bullet point of advantages clarifying it's spells that you cast that target only you

Rubiksmoose

@NautArch doooo it. Downvotes only feed me and make me stronger.

NautArch

5:48 PM

and that only works when you're casting while moutned

Rubiksmoose

@NautArch I edited. Clearer?

NautArch

@Rubiksmoose made a little edit

Rubiksmoose

@NautArch looks good thanks!

David Coffron

@Xirema you're probably right. At 0 AC, the damage is only dealing 28, and you would get less mileage out of Hexblades Curse

Not to mention damage type problems

Oh wait. My math is wrong

goodguy5

@Xirema that's what I'm here for.

Xirema

6:06 PM

I'll generate some stats for BB/GFB, but I suspect they will be uncompetitive.

goodguy5

honestly, I think it should be "resting"/sleeping for 56 hours because a short rest is 8 hours. 8*7 is 56, but w/e.
And for roundness sake, I'd also multiply the other two things by 8.
16 hours of light activity
8 hours fighting.

Wait a minute.... that leaves 88 hours. how'd you get 72?

@DavidCoffron Thanks ^_^

Xirema

(these stats only use +1 crossbows, guaranteed by Improved Pact Weapon; using a +2 or +3, plausibly obtainable by level 17, would boost those numbers by a lot)

goodguy5

@Xirema that's fun

MikeQ

@goodguy5 Aren't D&D weeks 10 days each?

goodguy5

@MikeQ I honestly can't tell if you're asking a legitimate question about the system in Forgotten realms or making an off-joke

MikeQ

6:11 PM

Good

goodguy5

because I don't know much about how the Sun works in the various campaign settings

Xirema

@goodguy5 It's an out-of-season April Fools Joke.

GreySage

@MikeQ Weeks are a social construct, we live in the every-moving now

MikeQ

Nov 24 at 3:13, by Shalvenay

@EnderLook the problem you're having with the XGE number is that you're dividing it by 7 not 10 -- the FR notion of "week" is actually a tenday, not our Earthling weeks

goodguy5

oh, fun

NautArch

6:15 PM

@Rubiksmoose Having said all that around the Steed spells, my tables generally hand wave the mount rules and just let the Steed caster control the mount on their turn and include it as part of their turn.

Rubiksmoose

@NautArch That is the way to do it honestly.

@NautArch I think that question can be reopened now.

NautArch

@Rubiksmoose you don't think it's now clearly a dupe of "does a player control his summoned steed?"

Rubiksmoose

@NautArch I don't.

Well. I don't think so no.

NautArch

@Rubiksmoose yeah, you're right

nominated to reopen

don't know if it's worth adding in a bit about just letting your player control it supported by your own (and others...hint hint) table experience

goodguy5

6:31 PM

I would argue that the phrase "controlled by the DM" is .... dangerous? Misleading? misleadingly dangerous?

KorvinStarmast

@goodguy5 7 * 24 is 168. 56 hours for seven short rests equals 7 good nights' sleep. 112 hours left for all other activity. Sleeping and short rests overlap, so you don't need to count them both. What is to be done for 112 hours to get a long rest? Exercising? Practicing? Mending? Andras seems to have the right of it. It wasn't very thoroughly thought out. And if we want to go back to a few of the quirkier AD&D 1e rest/HP recovery rules ... I think it make the system unwieldy

Rubiksmoose

@goodguy5 how so?

@NautArch hah. Well let's see if I can squeeze it in there someplace

goodguy5

oh, it's definitely klunky. I don't love it.

But I don't like the current system either. I'm just suggesting substituting a very harsh klunky system for a more lenient klunky system.

KorvinStarmast

I don't find the current system to be that bad

goodguy5

@KorvinStarmast I mean the current "gritty realism" system.

@Rubiksmoose because The DM doesn't have to act in the player's best interest, nor do they have to agree with the player about what their best interest is.

Rubiksmoose

6:36 PM

@goodguy5 sure, but does "controlled by the DM" imply that?

goodguy5

it does to me.

If the Paladin wants McSteedface to charge in while he dives off of the top as a poor-man's fastball special, but the DM says "well, the steed wouldn't agree or know to do that without you controlling it.", what's the player to do?

I've often thought that the mounted combat rules were goofy as written.

Rubiksmoose

@goodguy5 I guess I'm confused.

David Coffron

@Xirema idk. They increase by 2d8 per cantrip tier. They might compete pretty well

Rubiksmoose

When I hear "controlled by the DM" I hear: "the DM has total control over this and will act according to whatever seems reasonable for it"

goodguy5

@Rubiksmoose then let's start over.

Rubiksmoose

6:38 PM

The DM controls NPCs and monsters in the same way

goodguy5

@Rubiksmoose yea, but those are also all according to what the DM wants to happen.

There is an intrinsic difference between DM motive and PC motive.

Rubiksmoose

@goodguy5 not necessarily.

Depends what you mean by "wants" and how the DM chooses to do things.

goodguy5

Even if it's only because of a difference of knowledge./

Rubiksmoose

My DM for example, would roleplay the creature according to its Int and motives regardless of any exterior concerns he might have.

The DM might have a horse might run away from a fire even if the DM would have really liked the PCs to ride it for example.

NautArch

@goodguy5 There was a point in our campaign where my DM had said "your steed refuses". Basically, I had often been sending him up ahead like a minesweeper and he'd had enough.

goodguy5

6:41 PM

@Rubiksmoose a HORSE might, sure. But a found greater steed shouldn't

NautArch

And I agree that was the right call to make. It added flavor to our relationship.

goodguy5

@NautArch and I disagree with that.... usually.

Rubiksmoose

@goodguy5 Yeah absolutely. And neither would a fire elemental. The DM would play each of those creatures differently in that situation.

NautArch

@goodguy5 I didn't like it at the time, but now I do :)

goodguy5

to each their own.

NautArch

6:42 PM

i mean. the steed is an actual creature with intelligence.

Rubiksmoose

I think I just missed something here where motive was implied.

goodguy5

But if the Paladin is touching the Steed, I feel that it should act however the player wants it to. Seemless unit and all.

NautArch

And we'd set it up also so that it was the same creature every time. And also handwaved being able to 'store' things on it.

Rubiksmoose

@goodguy5 IF you read my answer you will note that it "allows" them to act as a seemkess unit. Doesn't mean they always are.

NautArch

@goodguy5 seemless unit =/= slave

Rubiksmoose

6:43 PM

;)

goodguy5

Though, I misspoke some when I implied that repeatedly sending it to its "death" was fine.

However, repeatedly RIDING it to its death should pose no problem.

Rubiksmoose

@goodguy5 That depends on your method of control though right? Or is that what you are arguing?

David Coffron

@goodguy5 I mean... If I was technically immortal but only able to exist because of my master's magic, I would be perfectly willing to throw myself on mines for the temporary "death" it ensues

Rubiksmoose

woohoo! 8 hats :)

KorvinStarmast

@goodguy5 On a cold wind to valhalla ... in the case of a 13th level Paladin on a Pegasus ...

Rubiksmoose

6:45 PM

Or 10 I guess according to my profile.

KorvinStarmast

Jethro Tull - Minstrel In The Gallery - Cold Wind To Valhalla

►

goodguy5

@Rubiksmoose that is exactly what I'm arguing.

Rubiksmoose

@goodguy5 I see I see. You are saying that "DM control" should include some stipulation that it still acts according to the player's wishes?

NautArch

@goodguy5 oh yeah. Just normal use wasn't the problem. It was using htem like a minesweeper without me on it.

goodguy5

@DavidCoffron agreed. Though, I might start carrying around some sort of minesweeping pole thing

NautArch

6:47 PM

"Anubis [his name], go see what's over that ridge"

goodguy5

@Rubiksmoose more or less, yea

NautArch

I also somehow just discovered last night (at the suggestion of another player) to take the disengage action with the steed before entering battle to avoid OA and sentinel-like effects.

Rubiksmoose

@goodguy5 That is seemingly very similar to what the person in that quesiton I just answered is asking I think.

NautArch

DM wasn't too thrilled with that discovery

Rubiksmoose

@NautArch I'll bet! Though OAs aren't really a thing that happen that often for us it seems.

It is a powerful option on a steed though.

KorvinStarmast

6:49 PM

And for our bard playing friends, we have the minstrel in the gallery ...

Jethro Tull - Minstrel In The Gallery - Minstrel In The Gallery

►

NautArch

@Rubiksmoose DM definitely adjusts NPCs to deal with what we do very well.

goodguy5

Mounted Combatant seems necessary for any mount less than War-Bear (not to be confused with wereboar)

Colin Gross

@NautArch That's an interesting application of a warhorse. Let the horse do the avoiding for you.

Rubiksmoose

Werebar: drinks your life away.

goodguy5

treat it like an old wow dungeon.

Have the horse sprint in, aggro all the mobs, come back, and then bottleneck them at the front door.

@Rubiksmoose It's weird. I can only ever seem to find this bar during the full moon.... and it smells oddly like Fred.

GreySage

6:53 PM

@goodguy5 That is why 10ft poles were made.

Colin Gross

@GreySage Are those not a thing anymore?

I thought there was a magic version now. Collapsible pole or something of the sort.

Of course, those can just as easily set off traps where avoiding the damage involves rushing ahead.

Sir Cinnamon

My problem with the ten foot pole is that a lot of traps require like 100lbs of weight

it takes a lot of power to apply 100lbs to the opposite end of a 10ft pole

KorvinStarmast

@SirCinnamon Hence the addition of a gnome with a very full back pack. :p

Rubiksmoose

@KorvinStarmast Both great great songs

@goodguy5 XD

"I miss Fred..."

goodguy5

@Rubiksmoose What do you mean? I just saw him earlier today. I asked if he wanted to go to the pub, but said he was busy and "having people over" or something.

Rubiksmoose

6:58 PM

oh, so I just got a few more hats! Secret ones though so I don't know how I got them :| The hat gods look favorably upon me?

KorvinStarmast

@SirCinnamon We did something like that once with a 10' pole. Our fighter got on hands and knees, we used the 10' pole like a see saw. My human thief on one end, the gnome on the other. I pushed off hard and the gnome slams down on what we thought was a trap.

goodguy5

guys, pigs are like 5sp each

Sir Cinnamon

Isnt that just equivalent to having the gnome walk ahead?

KorvinStarmast

It sprang the trap ... and he luckily made the roll to keep his grip on the pole as the pit trap opened. It could have gone badly ....

@Rubiksmoose I think I still have that album on vinyl ..

GreySage

@goodguy5 Mine sweeping pigs... free roast pork from the fire trap!

Rubiksmoose

7:00 PM

@GreySage Make sure to bring the BBQ sauce

KorvinStarmast

@SirCinnamon No. We didn't want him falling if the trap was a pit.

GreySage

Man, I want to start every dungeon crawl by just releasing like 10 pigs to go and trigger everything.

6

Rubiksmoose

@KorvinStarmast Rope harness

goodguy5

I'm sorry. goats, and they're 1gp each

Sir Cinnamon

@KorvinStarmast I guess that specifically works for pit traps - equally as well as having him tied at the waist though

goodguy5

7:01 PM

because pigs are worth three goats for some reason

KorvinStarmast

@GreySage Yeah, summon beasts. @SirCinnamon We tried all kinds of weird stuff with 10' poles. Not all of it worked.

Sir Cinnamon

I reckon most goats are under 100lbs... depending on breed i guess?

but you could load it up I guess, push it over the threshold

... in some cases literally?

Rubiksmoose

@KorvinStarmast You do the weird stuff huh?

KorvinStarmast

@Rubiksmoose I once had hour paladin throw my halfling thief past the front line of melee so I could try to attack their spell caster.

goodguy5

@SirCinnamon I can't figure out how to calculate foot-pounds based on the fulcrum of a 10ft pole

Colin Gross

7:05 PM

@goodguy5 Same way you calc torque at the base of a tire. Lemme see if I can find an online calculator for that.

NautArch

Because I generally do a lot of kiting at 10', so providing more creatures with reach and that can have a sentinel type attack is something he's done.

Sir Cinnamon

@goodguy5 lets assume you can get... 3 feet on one side of the lever effectively and 7 feet on the other?

left hand is fulcrum and right hand is pushing up

NautArch

Or our problematic barbarian with his 28AC which goes up to 30 when our cleric casts Shield of Faith.

We end up with enemies that can easily hit over 20 AC.

which feeds back into my necessity to kite

Sir Cinnamon

according to this online calculator you need to apply 233lbs of upward force with your right hand to apply 100 to the other end

KorvinStarmast

@Sir

Sir Cinnamon

7:08 PM

I cant see that message...

KorvinStarmast

Now calculate the acceleration of 45 pounds of gnome and gear accelerating downwards. You start with weight, and then add the mvsquared of the acceleration

And do all of your calculations with a slide rule

goodguy5

@SirCinnamon but some of that is gravity

Sir Cinnamon

@KorvinStarmast :P I'm sure the gnome can do it, but at that point if youre letting a party member stand in the fire anyway...

@goodguy5 you mean fighting gravity to lift the pole or applying gravity to the button?

KorvinStarmast

The idea was that since he was holding on to the pole, he wan't fall it. So the DM made him roll and he made the roll. It was fun.

Sir Cinnamon

@KorvinStarmast That works only for pit traps though

KorvinStarmast

7:10 PM

We had a DM who read one of the dragon magazine's articles on fiendish traps, and fell in love with them. ...

@SirCinnamon And the problem with that is?

Exploration is the third pillar. And something a lot of folks forget is that mapping was part of exploration. Maps made versus DM maps ... a whole different piece of the game that we don't see much of nowadays

Sir Cinnamon

@KorvinStarmast It's just not the only use case for the 10 foot pole

goodguy5

No, you're fighting gravity to lift the fulcrum up "level". Then when you apply upward force, you're combining with the downward force on the other side from gravity.

So you don't need to generate the full 233, because gravity is doing some amount of it for you.

KorvinStarmast

@SirCinnamon Completely agree. It can also be used in cold weather to get chopped up and turned into a cooking fire. :)

Sir Cinnamon

@goodguy5 How much does 7 feet of 10 foot pole weigh?

GreySage

@KorvinStarmast I personally don't like PCs mapping, it gets really hard to accurately describe non-rectangular rooms, and then the PCs end up with weird misconceptions that they whine about later.

Sir Cinnamon

7:13 PM

and it would be less than that because the button wont take the entire weight of the pole

KorvinStarmast

@GreySage That has to do with expectations. We started out with all of that as a norm, so we didn't whine. I understand if it's not the current norm how some people would react to that.

goodguy5

@SirCinnamon just put a weight on the end.

KorvinStarmast

@goodguy5 Gnome = weight. :)

Sir Cinnamon

@goodguy5 Okay but that's my point still - just a 10 foot pole isnt enough to activate a 100lb pressure plate probably

GreySage

@goodguy5 The paladin's platemail weights 65lb on it's own..

Colin Gross

7:15 PM

@SirCinnamon It would be tough.

KorvinStarmast

@SirCinnamon Nobody said that it was, and certainly not me. Or use a 30 pound bag of copper pieces instead of the gnome ... .

.. nah, the copper pieces are valuable.

Sir Cinnamon

Lots of people say that they are - it's a running joke about dungeon delving

KorvinStarmast

We also had that guy who always wanted to bring an 11 foot pole. He'd seen "this is spinal tap" ... and of course it had to be 11.

Which led to the predictable jokes about pole envy ...

Xirema

@KorvinStarmast I feel like there's an entire genre of jokes that contain the phrase "well, he'd just seen Spinal Tap, so..."

KorvinStarmast

@Xirema Probably true

That movie seems to have struck a nerve, in a good way. Props to the team who put it together.

Colin Gross

7:21 PM

@goodguy5 You assumed holding the end and pushing down about 3 ft along the pole?

I get the same answer 234 lbs of downward force at 3 ft along the pole yields 100 7 feet further down.

goodguy5

I think I need to post this on math.se

the math.se is terrifying

Colin Gross

@goodguy5 Probably more apropos of a physics post.

Sir Cinnamon

more like physics isnt it?

goodguy5

yea, you're right

@Rubiksmoose You've already got a physics profile and are probably liked over there.

Colin Gross

math would be more along the lines of calculating the volume of gnomes required to fill a regular dungeon.

goodguy5

7:27 PM

what do we need to do to trigger a 100-pound threshold trap with a 10 foot pole

Sir Cinnamon

youre right, I would think the pole contributes some weight.... but not all because of the angle...

Colin Gross

@SirCinnamon magic pole. no contribution of it's weight to the torque

Sir Cinnamon

assume a 1inch diameter wooden (oak?) pole, 3 feet on one side of the fulcrum and 7 on the other

goodguy5

I always assumed they were metal

Colin Gross

@SirCinnamon You'd snap a 1" pole of wood like that.

Sir Cinnamon

7:28 PM

upward force on the short feet side = x, downward force on the long side = 100lbs

goodguy5

it's 7 pounds

for what that's worth

Colin Gross

Yeah, but then we have to do integration... and I am le tired.

Sir Cinnamon

Cant be iron then. I've always assumed wood? and someone mentioned chopping it into firewood earlier...

goodguy5

I would also accept downward force from the short side.

like an axe chopping motion

Sir Cinnamon

either way I guess... new Q, how much force can a 1 inch diameter oak pole take

Colin Gross

7:30 PM

@SirCinnamon sheering force?

Sir Cinnamon

@goodguy5 true!

@ColinGross Already over my head

Colin Gross

@SirCinnamon Are you twisting, squishing, or snapping a thing?

I'm assuming we're pushing down on the side of the pole... so sheer force. for 1" wood dowel. To the intertubes!

goodguy5

I think it's a two inch oak pole

David Coffron

@ColinGross before the internet people had to look up tables for this. I do not envy

goodguy5

density of oak is 40-50 lb/ft^3
volume of a 2inch 10ft pole is about .2 ft^3
gives us a density of 35 lb/ft^3

but that's not what this is about!

David Coffron

7:37 PM

@goodguy5 but now we can figure out If it floats

goodguy5

It's not made of Churches, David.

NautArch

@goodguy5 what about very small rocks?

David Coffron

@goodguy5 is that a witch reference? I'm confused

Colin Gross

@DavidCoffron I'm considering becoming an ultra-young earther. Putting forward the idea the the Universe and everything was created in the mid 90's because before the internet getting anything done must have been impossible.

goodguy5

@DavidCoffron not sure if you're actually confused or not because it is EXACTLY a witch reference from monty python

David Coffron

7:42 PM

@goodguy5 still haven't seen that. Always mean to but forget

Colin Gross

Hmm... most of the readily accessible math involves dowels... which is close but the double loading is with plates that are right next to each other. agriculture.purdue.edu/fnr/faculty/Eckelman/pdf/…

goodguy5

I think I have an answer to our force situation

and I think it's easy

KorvinStarmast

It's easier if you use a slide rule.

goodguy5

I'm pretty sure that....

Colin Gross

flexure.... that's what I should be looking for.

goodguy5

7:48 PM

8ft\ \ \ \ \ \ 2ft
_________ __
...............^ (one hand fulcrum, other hand on short side)

To generate 100 pounds of downforce, one only need to apply 25 pounds of upforce. boxers can apply 1000 ... pounds? of force with a punch. So it should be trivial for any fighter, possibly anyone to apply 25 pounds of upforce and set off the plate

Colin Gross

@goodguy5 You're talking about holding a the pole two feet from the end and pulling up on the end?

goodguy5

yes

one sec, will draw

Colin Gross

How much downward force do you have to exert at the fulcrum?

Xirema

Okay, time for today's game of "Intentional or Unintentional!"

Today's topic?

Hand Crossbows are the only weapon that cannot be used as a Warlock's Pact Weapon... UNLESS it is a +1 or other kind of magical Hand Crossbow, which will make it valid. Did WotC intentionally leave out non-magical Hand Crossbows as pact weapons, or not?

goodguy5

oh no!

well then

Xirema

7:53 PM

Literally, I've checked as many references as I can: they are the only weapon that requires it to be magical before you may use it as a Pact weapon. All other weapon types are either valid when mundane, or summonable as part of the Improved Pact Weapon invocation.

NautArch

@Xirema i thought warlock pact weapons were limited to melee?

KorvinStarmast

@NautArch I think that's a xanathar's thing

Xirema

@NautArch normally, yes, but Improved Pact Weapon adds all the ranged weapons, except for Hand Crossbows.

goodguy5

Xirema

@NautArch Also, if the weapon is already magical when you acquire it, you may turn it into your pact weapon regardless of its type.

NautArch

7:56 PM

@Xirema So this is just about being a Hex warlock, right?

Xirema

@NautArch No, hexblade has different stipulations: it must only be a non-two-handed weapon, OR be a valid pact weapon.

NautArch

@Xirema and the only valid pact weapons are melee.

unless i'm missing something

KorvinStarmast

@Xirema I am going to guess that this was a possible cheese prevention, or just an omission?

Xirema

@NautArch Unless you take the Improved Pact Weapon invocation, or bind to a weapon that was already magical when you found it.

@KorvinStarmast Well, that's the subject of the game! ;)

goodguy5

alright. holiday party. have fun folks

NautArch

7:58 PM

@Xirema Im getting a little confused as to what we're talking about :(

Colin Gross

@goodguy5 Yes. How much force needs to be exerted at the fulcrum?

NautArch

@Xirema so you're covering a warlock who has taken the Improved Pact Weapon invocation and is pact of the blade?

Xirema

@NautArch Yeah.

goodguy5

@ColinGross I don't know? I honestly don't understand your question

Colin Gross

If you just push up on the right side of that pole without pulling down at the fulcrum, the pole is just going to be raised up from the end.

goodguy5

8:00 PM

oh, wait, yes I do.

um...

I have literally no idea how to figure that out

go over to the hbar and ask them

Colin Gross

@goodguy5 Yeah, without fixing that fulcrum, you're just lifting the pole up from one end.

NautArch

@Xirema And we're sure that a weapon being magical allows you to bypass the melee requirements?

goodguy5

I Def accidentally Googled frenulum at work earlier thinking of fulcrum

NautArch

@Xirema because you can " transform one magic weapon into your pact weapon by performing a special ritual while you hold the weapon.", but "You can use your action to create a pact weapon in your empty hand. You can choose the form that this melee weapon takes each time you create it ". WHich implies that even with the ability to bond with a magical weapon, you are still imited when summoning to melee.

Colin Gross

@goodguy5 Well, you want that position to stay fixed in space. And the pole is touching the ground at the far end. So you want the forces at that point to be balanced.

NautArch

8:05 PM

@ColinGross are you two bringing real world physics into D&D again?

up against the wall!

Colin Gross

So calculate the torque at that point if you're lifting it from the back while the front is fixed on the ground. The downward force you're exerting needs to cancel that torque. I think you'll find the total ends up being more than just holding the pole on the far end and pushing down on it.

@BESW whew! Glad you're here! We need the name of an esoteric or lesser known RPG system that starts with the letter L

David Coffron

@Xirema what about sling and dart? And blowgun? (And net)

NautArch

@DavidCoffron iremain unconvinced you can use ranged weapons outside of the improved pact weapon invocation.

David Coffron

@ColinGross land of the rising sun? Lone wolf?

@NautArch no. Those are other examples that IPW can't get

NautArch

@DavidCoffron right, but @Xirema is positing that the ability to bond with a magical weapon bypasses ALL restrictions.

i think

David Coffron

8:14 PM

@NautArch Sage advice covers it

25

A: Hand Crossbow as Warlock Pact Weapon?

Yes, but you have to be level 12 to do this The Sage Advice articles says: You can also use Pact of the Blade to bond with a magic weapon, turning it into your pact weapon. This magic weapon doesn’t have to be a melee weapon, so you could use the feature on a +1 longbow, for instance This ...

NautArch

@DavidCoffron well lookee lookee. That doesn't make a ton of sense for me, but sure.

goodguy5

I'm going to develop a trap finding item

NautArch

@DavidCoffron I don't think the RAW agrees with that, and honestly I don't understand why you can bond with a magical ranged weapon, but not a mundane ranged weapon from the start.

Xirema

@DavidCoffron Yeah, that was the reference I forgot to link.

NautArch

@DavidCoffron Makes Improved Pact Weapon only useful in low magic settings.

Xirema

8:20 PM

@NautArch It's because of legalese.

NautArch

@Xirema I think it's another example for me of "let's not use this particular sage advice suggestion"

Xirema

> You can transform one magic weapon [melee? Nonmelee?] into your pact weapon by performing a special ritual while you hold the weapon.

NautArch

@Xirema I didn't think that line needed clarification because you still have the original requirement of "melee weapon" when summoning it.

Xirema

@NautArch /shrug

NautArch

@Xirema yup :)

But it does look like that David is right in that it's not just nonmagical handcrossbows that are left out for Improved Pact Weapon warlocks.

Xirema

8:26 PM

@NautArch So the real question then, is, should those items be left out? And I think the answer for all of them is 'no', except for the Hand Crossbow, where my answer is 'maybe'.

Anaphory

@ColinGross Is the answer going to be Lady Blackbird?

Xirema

As I showed in my table, the Hand Crossbow is the only one that beats Agonizing Blast in DPR. So on one hand, it's cool that there exists a specialized build that breaks the EB monopoly. On the other hand, it does make Warlocks ever so slightly stronger.

NautArch

@Xirema well,that I don't know. Not sure why they only gave shortbow, longbow, light xbow, heavy xbow

@Xirema why wouldn't the dart/sling/blowgun/net cause an issue?

Xirema

@NautArch They don't have synergy with Crossbow Expert. That's the thing that tips the scale in my comparisons. 3 attacks per turn with +10 damage from double+CHA is powerful.

Basically replicates the GWM feat but at range.

And you don't lose accuracy to do it.

NautArch

@Xirema ah, because of the third bullet point.

Xirema

8:37 PM

TBH, considering it is burning through a feat and two Invocations, compared to Agonizing Blast spam (1 Invocation + more features optional with other feats) I'm inclined to say that Hand Crossbows should be allowed. If it requires a lot of specialization, it becomes prohibitive for a lot of builds.

NautArch

@Xirema What's interesting is that if this was on purpose, then they considered it even though it's an optional feat.

wait, where are you getting the 2nd +5 (assuming 20 CHA)?

Xirema

@NautArch Lifedrinker. Hexblade+5, Lifedrinker+5 after level 12.

Is the reason EB briefly shines at level 11 before weapons take back the throne at 12.

BESW

Labyrinth Lord
Lacuna
Lady Blackbird
Lasers & Feelings
League & Fathom
Legend
Legends of Anglerre
Little Fears
Little Wizards
Lovecraftesque
Lucid

Colin Gross

@BESW Now how many of those have you actually played?

BESW

Three.

Colin Gross

8:46 PM

@BESW How many of those three do you like?

BESW

All of them, though one is definitely a "when the stars align" kind of game.

There are several games I enjoy but only want to play rarely, and/or only with certain people.

Oh, another L-game: Loose Threads.

Why?

Yuuki

@BESW Are you incentivized to make completely off-topic, almost cartoonishly racist tirades at random in Lovecraftesque?

NautArch

@Xirema ah, gtocha. But you're making a build specifically to do this and seems legit for it. But also seems very reasonable on why they didn't include handcrossbow.

BESW

@Yuuki Happily not, that's why it's esque. The game was designed to make stories with use the structures and broad existential-dread themes of HLP's works, but reject the bigoted content and let gamers replace it with their own content.

Yuuki

Yeah but out-of-the-blue racist polemics is what makes Lovecraft Lovecraftesque to me. /s

BESW

8:56 PM

For example, it's one of the only games I've ever seen that successfully has one player charater but can accommodate up to five players at the table.

@Yuuki Yeah. I might've named it something else.

Yuuki

I used to think people complaining about racism in Lovecraft's works came off as a bit overwrought but then I actually read some of his literature.

If anything, people are underselling it.

BESW

Yeah, it's baked into the "Mythos" pretty indelibly.

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