TRPG General Chat

12:00 AM

@EnderLook Probably not much. The PHB says that a priest's pack costs 19gp, and contains various items, including 2 blocks incense

GreySage

12:13 AM

@EnderLook It's not in the PHB, Xanathars, or SCAG

trogdor

@BESW oh you naive fool

nitsua60

12:33 AM

@KorvinStarmast I feel like my recent comment might have come across too pushy--I'm not trying to get you to cram all of ch4 of Peterson into an already-good answer, I just think a nod in the direction of "btw, much of this was already around" might be an interesting signpost for future readers.

Peter Cooper Jr.

@EnderLook I don't own it so I can't be sure, but when I search D&D Beyond for block of incense, one of the search result snippets is from Tomb of Annihilation, saying "A block of incense sells for 1 sp"

Ender Look

@PeterCooperJr. I think that is from the Insect Repellent Incense, which I am not sure if it's similar to a normal incense, are they?

Peter Cooper Jr.

@EnderLook Oh, I don't know. Like I said, I don't own it.

Ender Look

Ok, thanks anyway

nitsua60

@EnderLook That is specifically insect-repelling Chultan incense--one block burns for an entire 24 hours! All for the low price of 1sp! (And a trip to Chult.) I dare you to find higher quality incense anywhere in the north!

=)

trogdor

12:47 AM

@nitsua60 that and your medical bills when you drink the water

But nowhere is perfect

Shalvenay

hey @nitsua60 -- mind if I poke you on Discord again?

KorvinStarmast

1:11 AM

@nitsua60 thanks for the comment, I tried to upgrade. Great comment, and I think a ref to Peterson was in order

@MikeQ And you can expect to get 75 coppers for it. ;)

@MikeQ That is a very Gygaxian PoV there; it fits the "boom town, gold rush town" theme he described in the AD&D 1e DMG and in a few Dragon articles.

Ender Look

@nitsua60 mmm, I don't know why but I have a strange feeling that Chult isn't a very nice place to visit, especially if you need that repellent...

@trogdor ???

The description of that item says it works with any creature from the Appendix A of the Monster Guide. So is possible to use that outside Chult?

KorvinStarmast

1:28 AM

@EnderLook Funny, my ranger has been stumbling around Chult for about three "in game months" and he disagrees that Chult isn't a very nice place. The jungle can be dangerous, to be sure, but Chult has a certain charm. You really should visit, and for sure, buy the repellant!

@EnderLook So is possible to use that outside Chult? Discuss with your DM. If you are the DM, you decide.

trogdor

@EnderLook the water in Chult is apparently very bad for you

Ender Look

@trogdor Just for curiosity, does boiling that water fix that? Or maybe Purify Food and Water?

@KorvinStarmast I just was curious

trogdor

@EnderLook I think either of those probably does the trick

KorvinStarmast

@EnderLook Not as far as we know ... we trap rain water in rain catchers, but maybe boiling would do the trick.

trogdor

I don't know if the source is supposed to be normal bacteria or magic

I expect at least that purify food and drink has to work

KorvinStarmast

1:31 AM

@trogdor It might have to do with all the undead in the jungles ... do they pee in the river?

I think you are right about purify food and drink

trogdor

Do undead need to pee?

Ender Look

@KorvinStarmast I didn't know that undead has that needs...

KorvinStarmast

@trogdor Sounds like a great RPG.SE question! :)

trogdor

But yeah just them hanging out in the water would be really bad

@KorvinStarmast more like sounds like a really bad one

:P

KorvinStarmast

@trogdor OK, I guess your chance to make the HNQ cavalcade of stars is lost. :)

trogdor

1:33 AM

Huh?

KorvinStarmast

Hot Network Questions. It's been a topic of some debate on our meta and on SO/Se meta.

Ender Look

Talking about undead... how much is the chance of survival of a lvl 1 Cleric, Wizard, Paladin, Bard, Warlock and Roge (with low spell and HD) vs a Dragonlich... there was a leak of information from a source of trust that our DM is going to... use that in the next dungeous room. I'm am a bit scared...

KorvinStarmast

@trogdor I figured that "do zombies need to pee" would hit HNQ due to the title

@EnderLook what levels?

Ender Look

@KorvinStarmast I just edited that, lvl 1

Are we going to die?

daze413

Heyum, something doesn't sound right with this homebrew I worded. I can't seem to find any similar wording in the source books, can I run it by you guys and get some feedback?

KorvinStarmast

1:35 AM

@EnderLook Yeah, or, you are going to have a non combat encounter with the dracolich

daze413

> Each creature in the area must make a DC 10 Constitution Saving Throw or take 4d6 poison damage and is Poisoned, or half as much on a success and not Poisoned.

trogdor

@KorvinStarmast ah

Ender Look

@daze413 Of course, but I'm a beginner so me feedback isn't trustworthly!

@KorvinStarmast No idea. Last week we were 3 of the 6 players, and the DM delay the session because he said... it was going to be heavy

daze413

@EnderLook no worries, it just really sounds weird to me, but I feel like there should be something similar in the books but i cant find it :p

btw, thats for dnd-5e

Ender Look

@daze413 Not an expert from poisons... but have you checked from dndbeyond in the poisons list?

daze413

1:37 AM

and also, ive been looking only at the MM. I just figured to look in the spells in the PHB

Ender Look

I'll check that

@daze413 Oh, a monster ability?

No idea

Xirema

A Paladin with Find Steed is better than PHB Beast Master Ranger: Change my Mind.

daze413

@EnderLook Yeah it's an action. Actually that's just the first part that sounds weird, there's a second part that's even weirder but I wanted to get the 1st part down for now

Ender Look

@daze413 I'm sorry but in my whole life as an adventurer, I only fought with 4 goblins, 2 hobgoblins and a quite strong gobblin that I don't know the name. Sorry

daze413

ah found a similar spell! Was nice rubber ducking with you guys :D

trogdor

1:42 AM

@EnderLook probably a bugbear?

Ender Look

Spell? Can I know which one?

daze413

apparently it's:
> On a failed save, a creature takes x damage, and it is X'edfor 1 minute. On a successful save, it takes half as much damage and isn't X'ed.

err it's in Xanathar's: Wall of Light

KorvinStarmast

@MikeQ SOrry, that game is Barrooms and Braggarts, also called B&B. :)

Ender Look

@trogdor It is quite possible, when we looted the corpse the DM didn't give us a Morningstar but if I sum the XP of all the creatures I've already killed and divide with the players fits fine

trogdor

Yeah

It's just you said goblin and hobgoblin already so it stands to reason with me, in. D&D setting, if there was a third kind it was probably a bugbear

Ender Look

1:54 AM

@trogdor Ok, thanks!

nitsua60

Just dropped an answer on meta.se that talks quite a bit about this community: meta.stackexchange.com/a/319091/311001. Lemme know if anything I said there seems dissonant with what you've seen around here, please.

(Putting the kids down, then I'll get to the last hour's pings!)

Also holding my breath: I find posting anything on meta.se very intimidating =\

trogdor

@nitsua60 yeah,.. I barely have any posts there if I even have any

There might be like one question I forgot I posted, maybe

Or something, or nothing at all

daze413

ok so here's another mechanic I homebrewed that sounds weird to me, and I know is definitely _not_ in the source books:
> A creature that does not have all of its hit points has Disadvantage on this save. If a creature has Disadvantage on the save and if the higher of the two rolls would still fail the saving throw, the creature also contracts a random disease.

nitsua60

@daze413 This feels a bit like it's just a second save contingent on the first's failure.

daze413

does it sound understandable? I wanted an effect that if you would have failed even if you had advantage, then you get an even worse effect

@nitsua60 yes, but kinda rolled into one

like, you fail the rolls twice, but you fail the save only once

nitsua60

2:13 AM

Except don't you pick up two maluses? "the creature also contracts a random disease" on top of whatever the first fail got you?

daze413

yes, it gets you some damage and poison. See: this

Peter Cooper Jr.

@daze413 Might also want to handle what happens if the target somehow gets advantage as well, which would cancel out the disadvantage

daze413

@PeterCooperJr. In that case, they act as if they have all their hitpoints and have no chance to contract a disease.... hm, I haven't thought about that. I'll keep it as is but I'll let it simmer in my head for a while. Thanks!

Peter Cooper Jr.

And also how it might interact with the various re-roll a die mechanics

daze413

This would seem like a good time to use one of your Lucky feat dice, yea

KorvinStarmast

2:26 AM

@nitsua60 updoot

@daze413 sounds vaguely like contagion spell....

daze413

2:38 AM

@KorvinStarmast Yes but without the extra saves. I'll rethink the feature what with the new Contagion mechanics, though.

Shalvenay

hey there btw @daze413, what's been up?

daze413

@Shalvenay heyo Shalv, its been a while. :)

Shalvenay

@daze413 how've things been going on the gaming front? any sign of Dawn's player even? :) (if they turn back up, I'm still game for a little Dawn n' Serasha romp)

daze413

Things are looking up, finally found a place thats interested in hiring me and is decent. I actually find myself hoping to get the job

Shalvenay

@daze413 cool :)

daze413

2:43 AM

@Shalvenay ah, well Squish's been playing Destiny 2 since it went free, actually

We haven't played since that one Dawn game

Shalvenay

@daze413 ah, drat.

over here? got an on-and-off game with an old acquaintance of mine and a friend of theirs who's DMing the thing, as well as ToA with nits and co. which is going pretty well :) and what looks to be another game starting up in the near future, hopefully the 5e edition of my gnoll monk/priestess works :)

daze413

@Shalvenay oooh, how's the To

* ToA going?

also, no spoilers, coz I still might get the chance to be a player in it

Shalvenay

@daze413 as I said, pretty well :) party is marching through the jungle apace, and having very little trouble staying alive :)

(in the grand scheme of things, that is)

daze413

huh, jungle trudging, I had assumed the adventuring location is mostly in the ToA dungeon,

like the original ToH

KorvinStarmast

@daze413 First, we have to find it. That's been part of the problem . we got led astray by a guide, and we got set up as patsies for a mob hit ... and were banned from a fort ... but we did beat the pirates

daze413

2:56 AM

@KorvinStarmast lol any story that got you banned from somewhere is always interesting

Shalvenay

hey there btw @KorvinStarmast

KorvinStarmast

@daze413 yeah, our DM was even surprised at how we managed three straight failed charisma checks to get banned ...

Shalvenay

come to think of it...@KorvinStarmast, mind if I drop you a line on Discord?

KorvinStarmast

@Shalvenay hollo, please do, let me bring discord up. I don't usually have iton

daze413

I mean, what did you do to even have to convince people not to ban you

Shalvenay

2:59 AM

@daze413 we were tricked into being escorts through the jungle for what turned out to be a hitman

daze413

@Shalvenay that's why you never accept excess baggage from strangers in the airport, and why you don't escort strange people through the jungle

Shalvenay

@daze413 heheheh.

KorvinStarmast

3:16 AM

It was the only job we had that seemed simple enough for level 1 characters, and it was a lead from our Paladin. Nobody ever lies to a paladin, right? (Oh, wait)

trogdor

Yeah of course not, who would be so horrible?

KorvinStarmast

3:35 AM

Nite all, the sleepies have arrived. @trogdor Hope you guys keep winning the weather lottery you've been playing ... :)

Glazius

Hmm. Asking for feedback on a compendium class on the stack doesn't sound too promising. So I'll put it here. t2m.io/aTuGhz4d Merchants ahoy!

trogdor

4:00 AM

@KorvinStarmast the house always wins eventually

kviiri

6:45 AM

@nitsua60 I was spooked as heck when writing my post to the site meta. But I'm really happy to see once more we are a community where friendly disagreement is a thing (and in this case, yielded very interesting results!)

It's funny how often I fear expressing an unpopular opinion only to find it very popular instead

Mike Q

I disagree with your agreement to disagree

SmokeDetector

7:04 AM

[ SmokeDetector | MS ] Bad keyword in answer, bad keyword with email in answer, email in answer, messaging number in answer, pattern-matching email in answer (432): What happens to spells (buffs, curses, etc) that are active on you when you die? by Chris Manuel on rpg.SE

kviiri

8:05 AM

Oh hey, Smokey's back here?

trogdor

huh

kviiri

9:40 AM

I've been reading PHB 1 and 2 of DnD 4e before bedtime and it has been a mistake

Now I have urges to play 4e again and no one to play with :(

So many awesome classes

Miniman

9:58 AM

Aye.

Although I'll admit, for some reason I'm only really interested in the defenders.

kviiri

Defenders are fun, but if I had to make a character now, I'd pick Shaman

The spiritual animal companion is just too awesome to not try

BESW

I've been thinking about running a game of 4e-D&D.

That is, of course, "4e minus D&D." All the cool ideas of 4e transplanted into some suitably malleable system that's not quite so... everything else.

kviiri

10:55 AM

hehe

I see what you mean :)

Tiggerous

11:27 AM

I feel like I remember a question on here, a while back, about (dnd-5e) whether Forge Clerics could use Artisans Blessing multiple times to craft more expensive items piecemeal? For example the upper limit of Artisan's blessing is 100g but could they use it twice to effectively craft (in two halves) a full suit of Splint armour worth 200g?

I've searched and can't seem to find the question - does that ring a bell for anyone else?

BESW

"Forge Clerics" sounds like a blacksmithing epic feature.

Tiggerous

It would indeed be so.

trogdor

12:09 PM

@BESW how would you go about that? then again maybe that's part of the problem you are already looking at

BESW

@trogdor The obvious way would just be a Fate-based narrative application.

Use the 4e material as inspiration, describe your character in Fate aspects and stunts.

trogdor

12:23 PM

ah

KorvinStarmast

12:59 PM

@kviiri He who will not risk, cannot win. (attributed to John Paul Jones) Thanks for taking the plunge, I believe I upvoted your meta post.

kviiri

1:37 PM

@KorvinStarmast Thanks! I also subscribe to the idea that the world needs dissenters from the (perceived) popular opinion lest we become too herd-like for our own good, but actually being that dissenter is sometimes scary :)

KorvinStarmast

2:01 PM

@kviiri If not scary then at least futile, as my meta post regarding the new user experience shows

goodguy5

2:29 PM

why is this not closed as shopping?

6

Q: What are the best computer generators for historical timelines?

Every world or campaign setting has a timeline of historical events. Normally this has the format of a year number followed by a short description. For example: −9800 DR: The Yuirwood was settled by green elves in the aftermath of the Crown Wars. −6950 DR: The star elves began leaving other el...

kviiri

@goodguy5 My guess: RPG.stackexchange used to allow shopping questions

For quite a long time too

KorvinStarmast

@goodguy5 You will note that somebody began the close queue for "off topic" and that someone was me.

goodguy5

yea. I noticed that it was someone when I clicked on it to do the same thing

KorvinStarmast

@goodguy5 Kviiri was right; some game recommendations were on topic, some were not, and tool recommendations were at one time on topic. For reasons that are documented in RPG.SE meta, tool recommendations got added to the game recommendations as "we can no longer do this" and all around "this is why we can't have nice things" discussion. About two years ago, or so.

goodguy5

ah. well. good riddance

kviiri

2:39 PM

Questions can be closed retroactively after policy changes on Meta but there hasn't been a need to start mass-closing old off-topic questions

KorvinStarmast

@goodguy5 it popped up beause someone necromanced it with a bad answer, but I do not consider that to be "good riddance" personally. I liked the tool rec questions, and hated to see them die with game rec.

goodguy5

There are other services for that.

KorvinStarmast

@goodguy this answer is what necroed that question

goodguy5

yep. saw it

Though it is a bad answer, I would like to know more about what's in that section of the AD&D dmg

KorvinStarmast

Yeah, RPG.SE also used to give new users who did that short shrift, down voting and deleting without so much as a how do you do ... but that has also changed.

@goodguy5 Hmm, I think that's actually a separate book, let me check my index ...

goodguy5

2:44 PM

oh yea. so it is.
"World Builder's Guidebook"

KorvinStarmast

I think I bought that in the mid/late 90's, and in the middle of reading it I started reading Robert Jordan's Wheel of Time series because it was recommended in that guidebook. I need to dig around the attic, maybe I still have it. That guidebook itself was IMO pretty good. However, it might be with a pile of stuff that I left in an overhead compartment on a plane in greece in 1997 ...

... I left part of a short story there as well ... don't ask ...

It was the first example I got of how to start a continent with fault lines before mountains ... and how to logically place islands ...

kviiri

@KorvinStarmast I usually just pick a real world map and invert it :P

But I like your style too

Sir Cinnamon

@kviiri Invert it like land becomes water and water becomes land? Or mirror it vertically?

KorvinStarmast

3:11 PM

@kviiri My first "world" map was an out of date NOAA nautical chart of Japan. I got the chart from the quartermasters on a ship (in 1977) as we were cleaning out the old charts and replacing them with the new ones. I cut out the section with Kyushu, and there I had it: my first adventuring world.

I had already bought Empire of the Petal Throne, and had Barker's maps, but those weren't "my" maps of "my" world.

nitsua60

@KorvinStarmast The maps that came in Nat'l Geographic, if you didn't unfold them all the way, were my early go-tos for world-mapping.

goodguy5

I figured out where to put The Spell Slag

I've got a large whirlpool at the center of the main continent. And the Spell Slag will surround that body of water. Which was created by this magic war.

kviiri

@SirCinnamon Mirror or rotate

KorvinStarmast

3:31 PM

@nitsua60 Somewhere on Rob Kuntz' blog, he has some of the early Greyhawk campaign maps that IIRC were superimposed on the Avalon Hill Outdoor Survival base map.

goodguy5

3:54 PM

who's Hồng đô Võ and how did they get here with one rep?

Also "welcome"

Is that the layout guy?

KorvinStarmast

4:06 PM

@doppelgreener If you aren't already aware, Rob Conley's Blog is my favorite site for musings on OSR

Yuuki

How do you think a species would view necromancy if they naturally became undead?

The thought came to me when I was diving through ES lore and while draugr are said to exist because dragon priests would make their followers undead shortly before their own death but there's a number of draugr that would logically have had nothing to do with dragon worship.

goodguy5

@Yuuki I had a similar thought last night.

Yuuki

Yeah, I mean I think the root of all anti-necromancy sentiment in fantasy is some kind of instinctual or cultural belief that undeath is unnatural.

Dead things stay dead because dead things are dead in real life.

So when you have a culture where undeath is natural, that brings up a lot of questions on how they'd treat necromantic magic.

Rubiksmoose

@goodguy5 I believe you can join chat at any rep, but the rep limit is for posting in chat.

goodguy5

ah

@Yuuki possibly the same way we treat medicine

I'm sure there were (and still are) people that view medicine as "against the natural order"

GreySage

4:19 PM

@goodguy5 And they sub in their own horrible brands of natural "medicine".

Yuuki

@Rubiksmoose I think you can still get explicit write access?

Rubiksmoose

@Yuuki Yeah I believe a mod can grant that.

goodguy5

@Yuuki I'm basically riffing on the LFG comic where richard "owns" that necromantic village

Yuuki

@goodguy5 I mean, there's a difference between "naturally transitions to an undead state" and "we're all undead".

goodguy5

My world has 4 villages of exactly 100 denizens each. (might raise it to 250).

The Denizens are immortal, a la tuck everlasting.

In order for a new denizen to be .... uh.... "inducted", another denizen must be uninducted.

@Yuuki oh, of course

NautArch

4:23 PM

Is Eberron still considered UA?

goodguy5

But I got to "we're all undead" via "what if they naturally transition into undead?"

Rubiksmoose

@NautArch I believe the release is official now. At the very least it is allowed in AL.

doppelgreener

@KorvinStarmast Thank you for the recommendation!

The Oracle

1

Q: Are deleted questions visible?

Title kind of says it all. There was a question I recall a from a few days ago that I'd commented on, but I can't seem to find it so it was likely deleted. To clarify from a similar question, the question was not my own. Is it possible to view this question at all or is it completely gone?

support deleted-questions

NautArch

4:40 PM

@Rubiksmoose Really? THe DNDbeyond entry for it still says "The game mechanics here are usable in your campaign, but at this time they aren’t officially part of the game and aren’t permitted in D&D Adventurers League events."

Rubiksmoose

@NautArch In my research for this question I did find that they have release official rules for AL play Eberron.

And Wayfinder's Guide to Eberron is cited as the official source to use.

NautArch

@Rubiksmoose Hmm, that says the Eberron setting, but not that the Eberron book is legal? Or does the actualy PDF of rules say it is.

Rubiksmoose

> Your 1st-level character is created using any race and class options in the Player’s Handbook, Xanathar’s Guide to Everything, and the Wayfinder’s Guide to Eberron

NautArch

@Rubiksmoose hmm, maybe that's just for eberron campaigns and not AL?

yeah, i think that's it.

Rubiksmoose

@NautArch No that is straight from the AL PDF updated Sept. 2018

NautArch

4:49 PM

@Rubiksmoose which PDF?

ON the DMsguild, I see one for Eberron campaigns, one for FOrgottenRealms,

Rubiksmoose

"Eberron Campaign Player's Guide v 1.1" for that specific quote.

NautArch

The FOrgottenRealms once does not list Eberron as a source to use.

Rubiksmoose

@NautArch Correct they are divided up this season.

NautArch

@Rubiksmoose Yes, we're in agreement then :) It's only usable for AL Eberron campaign.

Rubiksmoose

@NautArch ah yeah. that is correct.

I thought you were making a distinction between AL and AL eberron.

NautArch

4:51 PM

But apparently it is definitely still playtest.

SO that's freaking weird. WIzards, amirite?

KorvinStarmast

@Rubiksmoose According to the book I just bought, no, it is not AL legal. I got the wayfinders guide ... pdf. My book said this: "The game mechanics here are usable in your campaign, but at this time they aren’t officially part of the game and aren’t permitted in D&D Adventurers League events."

Rubiksmoose

@KorvinStarmast Well according to the AL documents it is legal in AL Eberron campaigns so...

NautArch

@KorvinStarmast Rubiks cited the AL Eberron rules, you can use it there even though the boook says you can't.

because wizards.

KorvinStarmast

But if it isn't an explicit Eberon AL product, no, you can't. Makes sense to me, both commercially and AL system wise.

Rubiksmoose

@KorvinStarmast Correct. But that is still in AL.

KorvinStarmast

4:56 PM

But not in a group running a non eberon AL adventure

NautArch

@KorvinStarmast correct

Rubiksmoose

@KorvinStarmast Correct.

KorvinStarmast

Don't Cross The Streams!

NautArch

everyone still confused? perfect.

Rubiksmoose

lol

Clear as mud.

goodguy5

4:56 PM

what if we cross the streams just a little?

Rubiksmoose

You keep those streams apart!

KorvinStarmast

@goodguy5 Did you ever throw up in your mouth, just a little?

goodguy5

oh, yea. lots of times

KorvinStarmast

I am reminded of E.G.G. 's rush to publish the original books, and the 1985 UA. The "rush to publish" WGtE strikes me as similar. Why didn't they bother to balance it with the rest of the content? Need to get another book to market.

Understandable, also given Eberon's popularity among the player base

frowns no love for Dark Sun, I guess.

goodguy5

Ebberon is my least favorite canon setting, I think.

Dark Sun, Spell Jammer, the one with the lances?

KorvinStarmast

5:04 PM

@goodguy5 I don't like bloat, and to me Ebberon is bloat .... but other people can love that. Dragon Lance setting I initially liked, but as time went on I liked it less and less. Enjoyed some of the books ... it was a good effort, and successful at the time.

goodguy5

Ebberon doesn't feel like it grants anything to forgotten realms

except warforged. be careful

<rolling_eyes>

Rubiksmoose

To be fair, I have been playing an Eberron race for two years now (after it was initially released in UA) and have really been enjoying it.

goodguy5

(which one?)

sure there is good content IN Ebberon, but I've never felt like anything in Ebberon couldn't have just been IN FR

Rubiksmoose

The doppleganger one.

goodguy5

(sorry a test)[www.google.com]

I can never remember the syntax

Yuuki

5:18 PM

@goodguy5 It's about 10% on alcohol, IIRC.

goodguy5

that took me about 5 whole seconds.

Yuuki

It's [text](link) but you need the HTTP boilerplate in the link.

goodguy5

I just stared at it and scratched my head. solid slow burn joke, though

Yuuki

5:31 PM

@goodguy5 I try my best.

nitsua60

@KorvinStarmast Wasn't that the explicit instruction? "If you'd like to play overland adventures, use these rules and content from this other AH title"?

goodguy5

6:10 PM

@nitsua60 I think it was three "games" all together.

overland adventures
combat
and dungeon adventures

I think

goodguy5

7:05 PM

part of the "challenge" was supposed to be safely getting your loot back to base.

NautArch

7:45 PM

anyone watch this season of AMerican Horror Story? Get the feeling this question is in relation to the antichrist.

goodguy5

@NautArch I think it's related to the show Lucifer, but maybe.

NautArch

@goodguy5 haven't seen it...any good?

Sir Cinnamon

@goodguy5 At this rate officer you'll make detective in no time

goodguy5

uh...... yea?

I fancy myself a Christian man (more like "couch Christian", but still). The show Lucifer makes him a sympathetic character and it made me feel weird, personally.

Aside from that, it was very entertaining.

GreySage

@goodguy5 I don't think I've seen a single depiction of Lucifer that didn't attempt to make him a sympathetic character (except for the Robot Devil, from Futurama).

goodguy5

7:57 PM

yea, but the show Lucifer did a good job.

And usually it's like "oh, boo hoo, the poor devil" in a kind of .... "he's still obviously the bad guy" kind of way.

Delioth

@GreySage Dr. Who's interpretation (The Beast) is anything but sympathetic

GreySage

@Delioth Ok, well, I haven't seen that.

Delioth

I don't even blame you, it's like one episode and there's enough going on that you might be able to miss the fact that the antagonist of the episode is the literal devil. It's been a while though, so my memory over that might be unreliable

GreySage

It makes sense to make him a sympathetic character. Having a crazy evil guy be explicitly evil just for the purpose of being evil is boring. Subverting expectations is a much safer bet for entertainment.

Which leads to the audience expecting their expectations to be subverted, which leads to a time-loop and the universe implodes.

Rubiksmoose

Then there is The Devil Is a Part-Timer anime which I thought went super crazy the other way and making him way too sympathetic. It was ok but it was a major issue I had with it.

Mike Q

8:16 PM

To anyone: When fiction media tries to portray a (semi) sympathetic devil character, is that mainly bothersome because it disagrees with your religious beliefs? Or is it an issue for other reasons?

Yuuki

To be fair, the devil in that anime isn't really Satan. IIRC, all of the characters are like from an alternate universe or something.

GreySage

@Yuuki Yeah, he's just a generic evil demon lord.

Yuuki

@MikeQ I suppose it's somewhat similar to a "what if Hitler/Pol Pot/etc. was a nice guy" sort of thing.

Rubiksmoose

@Yuuki I mean yes. He's that universe's version of Satan which is obviously significantly different from the one portrayed in the Bible.

@MikeQ For me, though I was definitely raised with strong religious beliefs, that was not the issue here. I just thought they really missed the boat on making the character interesting at all despite having a lot to play with with a character that is the King of Hell

Yuuki

From what I remember of the manga I read, they didn't really do a lot regarding his past as a demon lord and him in particular.

It was only ever important with regards to the way other characters interacted with him.

Not sure if I'm describing it that well.

Rubiksmoose

8:23 PM

@Yuuki That is kind of my point though.

The created a character, hinted at a really deep and somewhat fraught past, gave him the name Satan, made him King of Hell and then....did nothing with that and made a generic (I'll even say boring) anime protagonist instead.

Yuuki

Yes, I'm trying to make sure I'm understanding your point.

Rubiksmoose

Fwiw I am talking about the anime. I'm sure there are differences as there almost always are.

Glazius

@goodguy5 If it's anything like the Vertigo comics, it's basically a Lucifer who God forgave a long time ago but only forgave himself and quit Hell very recently.

goodguy5

I don't THINK it was like that? But it's hard to recall. I only watched 2-3 episodes

Yuuki

It's kinda disappointing to me that the only anime where the protagonists have non-standard/boilerplate character strengths and "flaws" are pretty much grimdark and tragedy.

It's also disappointing that sympathetic bad guys in most media have the same kinds of flaws that aren't really flaws.

And inevitably, their personality problems and pitfalls are someone else's fault.

Like the Lucifer from the TV show we're talking about. IIRC, God in the show is depicted as a pretty terrible father so of course Lucifer has "problems" because he was raised poorly.

He's just "rebelling against the man, man".

Mike Q

8:30 PM

Devil is a Part Timer is an isekai anime so of course the themes, events, and characters are just recycled anime tropes

As per the formula, the protagonist is always morally right by virtue of being the protagonist

BESW

Re: cultural attitudes to undeath above, there are plenty of real-world cultures where the dead/not-dead/dead-but-interactive line is already quite blurry.

For cultures and faiths where one's deceased ancestors are already an active presence in your everyday life, it might be concieveable that ghosts or other undead would be taken relatively in stride, depending on the exact form the undead take.

Mike Q

Yup. Much of the "necromancy is evil" attitude stems from Western religious beliefs

Oddly they're the same beliefs that any manmade supernatural power is also wrong, so I guess fantasy authors like to pick and choose

BESW

8:47 PM

@MikeQ Which is also a little odd because the dominant Westers religious paradigm features biblical literalists who venerate a figure who returned from the dead and place their hopes in a promise that he'll come back again to resurrect them all.

@MikeQ In a modern context, I think it's more useful to think of necromancy as evil because it interferes with free will and/or intended afterlife protocols.

Mike Q

Perhaps, but there are tons of counterarguments to that

BESW

Well, yes. It's impossible to make sweeping statements about decades/centuries of fiction and remain moderately accurate.

KorvinStarmast

9:18 PM

@nitsua60 yeppers. Of course, only one DM I knew had the Outdoor Survival game; the rest of us winged it. :p

@GreySage Al Pacino's devil was not sympathetic (Devil's Advocate)

@BESW Which puts a certain poignancy into the lyrics of this song (by the hooters)

The problem with the devil as a character is that he's a Mary Sue if played as the deep lore of "the most powerful of archangels who fell/disobeyed" model. Even Superman in full "I can fly around the world and reverse time (Reeves, Superman 1)" would have trouble with him.

The more usable model of the devil is as the master of lies, who tries to get someone to "do the wrong thing" ... that puts the conflict in the hands of the character in question.

Or, as a man of wealth and taste ...

Rubiksmoose

Or as a really good riff on eggs.

Yuuki

@KorvinStarmast Characters that are defined purely in the physical will always have trouble with characters that are defined in the abstract/figurative.

KorvinStarmast

@Rubiksmoose that too

And ham; the Underwood brand even has a little devil on the label

i5.walmartimages.com/asr/…

kviiri

There's also the Old Testament Satan who just wants to test people's virtue, but I feel traces of that trope are quite common already

KorvinStarmast

@kviiri I get the feel of OT Satan operating in master of lies mode, in terms of "get someone to do the wrong thing" though I can see how the book of Job is read differently than that

kviiri

9:31 PM

@KorvinStarmast Yeah, I'd say the main distinction is motive

KorvinStarmast

@GreySage No, that would be worse than HNQ to the third power.

kviiri

I mean, it's been a while since I last read the book of Job, but if I recall correctly Satan's motive there doesn't seem to be malice or desire to tempt Job to evil --- rather, he seems to believe Job's piety is shallow in the first place and just wants to build a case to prove it. (And he turns out to be wrong)

BESW

It's useful to remember that our contemporary vision of Satan/the Devil is a messy mashup of thousands of years of violent cultural intersection, with a great big dollop of modern commentary on top.

Satan, the Devil, Lucifer, Baal, Beelzebub, Mephistopheles, Angra Mainyu...

John Milton has a lot to answer for, specifically.

There's no way to actually collate all those sources into a coherent character model.

kviiri

9:50 PM

yup

Even the Bible (the ostensible original source for the modern perception of Satan) has quite a handful of Satans or... err... Satanoids?

In the OT, there's the Snake in Eden and the Satan who causes Job hardship. In the NT, there's the devil who tempts Jesus and the various devilish apparitions in Revelations

Those are the ones I remember off the bat, and there's probably some I forgot. But the point remains --- that's a fairly diverse bunch of characters that somehow is supposed to represent one single person

And that's before later culture kicked in - the Dante Alighieri Expanded Universe, the Paradise Lost...

Mike Q

The snake was not originally equated with the devil figure until later commentaries

Yuuki

IIRC, there's even questions of whether "snake" is the right translation.

kviiri

@MikeQ Hmm, personally I can think of cases both for and against, but I'm such an amateur that it probably doesn't make much difference what I think :P

trogdor

@BESW yeah, it's weird prestige in and of itself that he has so many different "jobs" or "roles"

Mike Q

@Yuuki Dunno about that, the term used in Genesis 1:3 is the same as modern Hebrew for snake

trogdor

10:03 PM

As a kid I didn't understand that it might be due to too many different influences on what we see him as over a pretty long time historically

kviiri

The only strong case for the Snake being The Satan or something similar is that he seems to understand good and evil before humans do, suggesting that he's something more than just an animal among animals

Another weird case is "The" Antichrist --- often portrayed in pop-culture as a single demigodly devilish influence to cause nastiness near the end times, but in the Bible usually referring to a whole category of people who oppose Christ (hence the name!)

Mike Q

It's hard to say. The modern concept is an amalgam of different religious symbols that, over time, various scholars and non scholars sorta combined into a single archetypal figure

trogdor

In my oppinion the biggest contradiction is that he tempts everyone to sin and then gets to run hell

At least according to the popular idea

kviiri

It's also weird how the iconography of DnD paladins and clerics, as well as several gods in the pantheon, are very obviously Judeo-Christian -influenced, but they exist in a very different religious atmosphere

trogdor

But my problem with that is actually God himself,.... Can anyone tell me why the ultimate force of good and justice would for one second allow the worst creature to ever exist both of those jobs?

GreySage

10:14 PM

@trogdor Biblically, Satan doesn't get to run Hell, he gets imprisoned in Hell. I don't know where the idea that Satan runs Hell came from.

Mike Q

@kviiri There was an interesting discussion about this in the chat a while ago

Rubiksmoose

@kviiri Almost like the people who made it were white American men raised entirely in that environment and not exposed to anything else :P

trogdor

@GreySage that's actually part of my point

I'm agreeing with @BESW, bascially, that the modern conception of Satan is,.... really weird

Mike Q

Basically the themes and structures and attitudes toward deities and worship in these fantasy universes are just reflavored Western monotheism, plus the characterizations of Greek pantheism

Rubiksmoose

@trogdor eh there are definitely reasons that people have come up with that make as much sense as anything else. My dad is a minister so I'm pretty versed in them lol

trogdor

10:16 PM

I have actually read the Bible and I have never come across anything in it that says he runs hell

kviiri

@GreySage I actually don't think that is very clearly said in the Bible either

Like, the Satan being in Hell part

trogdor

@kviiri that's the point though, it doesn't say anywhere in the Bible that he does

my criticism is with the modern popularized idea that for some reason he can get away with wearing all these different hats

GreySage

@kviiri I believe in Revelation it mentions him being trapped there. It's been a while since I've read that, and opinions on when exactly the stuff in Revelation are supposed to happen/have happened vary.

trogdor

and yeah, it is assumed that the Serpent was Satan but that could also maybe be wrong,... it really really depends how you interpret it

and what edition or version you read

and that goes for practically everything in the Bible at all

Glazius

@trogdor Well, Manichaenism was a popular heresy for a reason.

Jesus Prince of Peace vs. Satan, Duke of Hell! Rebel 1! FIGHT!

kviiri

10:22 PM

Some of those gnostic dualist churches that got wiped out during the Middle Ages believed that the closest equivalent to Satan is actually the creator of this world, who imprisoned our spirits into cages of matter.

Most sources that remain of them are written by their enemies though...

trogdor

@Glazius I am not familiar with that

@kviiri definitely not a great way to know what they really believed :/

Mike Q

So the original judaic beliefs didn't have dualism. IIRC the idea of an independent supernatural evil, responsible for worldly evil, came from Zoroastrianism. And those attitudes were popular in the setting when commentaries were written about the old texts, so the idea was kinda added retroactively

Yuuki

It's Sa-teen.

Glazius

@trogdor The idea that Satan runs Hell and opposes God on equal footing.

trogdor

@Glazius Ah ok

Yuuki

10:27 PM