TRPG General Chat

I was already working on a response. Seeing as grammar rules, JC's tweet, and the Bard bit on spells all point to the same thing, I'd ague matt's interpretation is inherently faulty.

I love this question because it is such a pointless edge case. But I genuinely love it.

@Rubiksmoose i'm just withholding my upvote until they fix the thaumaturgy example

with regard to MattDMs answer, i'm not sure. I think he's right in that a cantrip upcast to level 2 becomes a 2nd level spell and uses that slot.

5:24 PM

@NautArch Yeah the argument initially didn't work for me, but it is growing on me.

Here's the funny thing, I could have actually gone full rule lawyer on the subject and done an in-depth, analytical breakdown on why that comma proves that the cantrip text does not say it "can be cast without a spell slot" but rather, by wording, that it implies it must due to the comma's existence.

@SoraTamashii wait did they really not use an oxford comma in that sentence?

Take a look. :P

@Rubiksmoose There's the Oxford comma, the missing comma but, my personal favorite is the Cambridge comma.

I did and am now even more disappointed lol

5:29 PM

hatmas is over :(

You see my point on that? lol

Hatmas?

@SoraTamashii SE event where certain actions earned Hats that you could wear.

during the christmas period we all earned and wore hats on our avatars

Q: The Hatmas Interdimensional Breach 2017 Photo Album

9

It's that time of year we fear every year: the interdimensional barriers between the dimension of hats and our own has broken down to critical and inevitable degrees. The rifts are open. The hats are upon us, here to consume us and preoccupy us like so many intellect devourers and to compel us to...

@Rubiksmoose that is the documentation =)

This occurred just prior to you becoming active here. It happens yearly for 2-3 weeks during December until just after new year.

It's formally called Winterbash.

winterbash2017.stackexchange.com

5:32 PM

So, I join the day it ended. Cool. T-T

Sorry. ;_;

See also meta.stackexchange.com/q/304340/311001

See you killed hatmas by joining, but now have become so integral that we can't function without you

That's going to suck since I'll have to leave for work in a couple hours. lol

This answer directly contradicts Crawford's ruling. — jeanquilt 12 mins ago

5:33 PM

@Rubiksmoose Can confirm. It's there in my mod tools. 3/01/2017, Sora Tamashii joins site, immediately kills hatmas, it's dead now, forever, for a year.

I'm not sure that's a bad thing, jeanquilt.

Huh? What answer?

@nitsua60 It also "contradicts" it in an aside that is not integral to the message...

@nitsua60 if you can't trust JC, who can you trust?

it was a comment on this one

5:36 PM

@SoraTamashii Click the "12 mins ago" timestamp link

@NautArch Your GM

Ok. Now I get it.

@Szega I've told you stories about my GM...

@NautArch Well during play you don't have much choice, even if they are like him

@Szega church

5:40 PM

@NautArch church?

@Szega church

And I just pointed out the lack of Oxford Comma and the effect it has on that sentence.

@Szega from breaking bad

@Szega Church's Chicken.

Sorry, have not watched that

5:44 PM

@Szega ooh. you really should.

And Church's Chicken is a fried chicken restaurant franchise.

@Yuuki as far as I am concerned, there is only one fried chicken restaurant franchise. Popeyes.

@SoraTamashii Playing devil's advocate here, "cast" is still affecting the clause why not "can be" as well?

it is also the only fast food i ever crave (usually only eat it when driving long distances or flying)

@NautArch I like spicy chicken but sometimes I like to eat non-spicy fried chicken on occasion and the problem with Popeye's is that they're really bad at cross-contamination.

Their non-spicy breading is somehow always a little spicy.

5:46 PM

@Yuuki i don't touch the non-spicy :) Just grab my 2 or 3 piece dark meat and a bunch of honey :)

But they definitely make better spicy fried chicken than anyone else.

i like their fry better than anyone else. no one gets as crispy.

i lied. I also like Roy Rogers.

you'd think I'm sort of fast food eater, but it's very rare for me. And my kids have only experienced fast food twice with me (both pancakes from McDs) while It hink my wife may have taken them and gotten them nuggets or something. But neither kid (now 4 and 6) have yet to even try soda.

@NautArch Stop it! You're making me really really want chicken right now. XD

@Rubiksmoose i'm now debating about picking up chicken this weekend and doing a buttermilk soak and fry

Whoops, sorry was replying to stuff.

Also, I'm eating General Tso's chicken at this moment.

5:50 PM

it's a lovely -20F with wind chill right now.

@SoraTamashii A bloodthirsty foe, but delectable chicken.

The best fried chicken is Whataburger’s Honey Butter Chicken Biscuit.

@Yuuki i haven't had it! I don't think they were selling that when i was living in texas.

hey its around -13 F here. Lovely.

but i did love me some waterburger

@Rubiksmoose actual or windchill?

with windchill thank goodness

5:51 PM

@Rubiksmoose are you in the NE? Or are we just approaching midwestern temps?

I'm in Michigan so no and yes

"A cantrip is a spell that can be cast at will, without using a spell slot and without being prepared in advance." Can refers to the casting. It modifies that. The comma causes a break, opening for a new dependent clause centered on "cast", not "can".

@Rubiksmoose ha, i gotcha.

@SoraTamashii I have a feeling that trusting that the Wizards editors wrote in correct grammar is a very questionable action.

@NautArch Sounds like it's chilly all over the place!

@Rubiksmoose It's a nice 44F here on the west coast. I love it here

5:53 PM

@GreySage You want to know where you can put all 44 of those degress? :P :)

@Rubiksmoose The actual forecasted temp tomorrow is a high of -2. Wind chill down to -35.

NautArch, if it weren't for the fact that Magic AND DnD, two very rule heavy games, you'd expect them to try to get it right the first time around. So, without errata, what they say should be taken to be what they mean, unless stated otherwise.

@NautArch I see what you're saying here. Makes sense. I'm not thoroughly convinced that it clinches the deal. But I think the preponderance of evidence is on the side of "no upcasting cantrips"

And all this poor guy presumably wanted to do was make some ominous sounds and tweak an appearance at the same time.

Which the spell already lets you do.

@Adam Funnily enough

5:57 PM

The only possible benefit upcasting a cantrip could do is get through limited magic immunity. But if you are casting a cantrip as a 6th level spell to do that, I think you need to reassess your priorities. Which basically makes it a non-issue.

@Adam I've also seen wild magic, and counterspell as possible advantages, but really I haven't heard anything at all compelling

Hi all

hello

@SoraTamashii Yeah...I'm not willing to go that far. If anything, I'd trust that Magic is written better (they can spend more money on that resource since it's bringing in more money), but grammar is hard enough to get right when you know what you're doing with a short sample. There's a lot going on here and not only does the editor need to have a strong grammatical background, but they also need to fully understand the rules (unlikely.)

I'm running a con game in three months. What one-shot game should I run? Recommend me your favourites.

5:59 PM

@Rubiksmoose But is it "no upcasting" because rules-wise you can't or because it simply will do nothing to do so (other than the counterspell example or wild magic examples.)

wait a second, a cleric has to prepare spells before casting them using slots right?

@eimyr I prefer the long cons :D

@Rubiksmoose correct.

@Rubiksmoose It doesn't specifically limit it to spells you have prepared, as far as I can tell.

@NautArch The fact that up-casting a cantrip won't change the affect of the spell is solved, whether it is possible or not in the first place is the question (although it's a silly question, since there is no point in doing it).

You might as well ask, "Can I discharge one of my spell slots, consuming it for no reason"

@GreySage yup. It's a debate over semantics where we're not sure if we can trust the source.

6:02 PM

NautArch, If this was something like a monster's attacks, I could understand, but for core rules, I expect them to get it right.

At the very least, I expect the Editor to do his job and fix the mistakes.

"You prepare the list of cleric spells that are available for you to cast, choosing from the cleric spell list....The spells must be of a level for which you have spell slots." Yeah thought that might be a vector to solve it, but I don't think it will

@SoraTamashii I think I have a much lower opinion of Wizards (and many editors) than you do :)

Haha Fair enough.

@GreySage Someone write this up as a question really quick!

I won't lie, though... Casting Prestidigitation as a 9th Level spell sounds pretty sweet... Imagine... I cast a WHOLE ROOM of trinkets!

6:10 PM

@SoraTamashii That would be amazing

I give ALL the food flavor!

Upcasting Light: Create Miniature Star.

Jesus casts prestidigitation... the water now tastes like fine wine.

When we had a wizard with prestidigitation, the cleric would cast create food and water, and then the wizard would make it tasty. Now we just eat gruel.

I could have ALL THE FRIENDS!

6:12 PM

@SoraTamashii I give the good ALL the flavour at once!

@Yuuki Fantastic.

Man, I wonder what upcasting Ceremony would be like...

> Wizard Breaks Guinness World Record For Most Simultaneous Marriages

2

Suddenly, I want to make a golem as an encounter and make it so the party has to use Stone to Flesh on it, followed by giving it clothes and a name. The reward being it joins the party as a berserker.

You would then name him Dwayne Johnson.

@Yuuki Really it is the only thing you could name it.

6:17 PM

Hey, I've never played a game before. I only DM. I wouldn't be naming anything.

Well, DM-ing is playing, but you know what I mean. lol

> only DM

> wouldn’t be naming anything

Does not compute.

I only name NPCs, not monsters.

Do you think I can go around naming every ooze and direwolf?

Not with that attitude.

@SoraTamashii Yes.

@SoraTamashii You've never played a single game as a PC?!

6:19 PM

@Rubiksmoose Some people just prefer Macs.

"This is Ooze, Bloozeregard Q Kazooze, Oozy Oozebourne, and Bob."

3

I don’t know why, but those people exist.

The looks on the players' faces when they find the name tags on the dire wolfs make for great drama, too

@SoraTamashii Also you must know and name their spouses and children

@Rubiksmoose I DM'd for about 4 years before I played my first game as a player

6:20 PM

I know one's spouse's name...

"SHARON!"

@Rubiksmoose and their mentors, teachers, sovereigns, and pets.

As DM, I am their most sovereign of sovereigns.

@ACuriousMind That is incredible. I played for more than a year I think before I felt confident enough to DM (basically knowing the rules, understanding what my role was, etc.)

Also, Bob has a habit of eating his pet.

It was a squirrel.

It was tasty...

@NautArch And ALL of them have backstories of course.

6:22 PM

@Rubiksmoose there was a question that was built like this...found this one, but it's not hte one I was thinking of.

@SoraTamashii How many times does it eat it?!

Seven times a day.

For about a year.

@Rubiksmoose Well, we started in a vacuum - none of my friends had ever played, so we wanted to start and they all said "I don't think I could DM" and I said "Well, I don't think I can either, but that hasn't ever stopped me from doing anything" and after some admittedly very rough first few sessions we had a pretty good game going

@SoraTamashii That is one hungry ooze

Cheddar's Regeneration stopped working suddenly.

May you rest in pieces.

6:24 PM

@ACuriousMind That makes a lot of sense. I started with a DM with more than 10 years of experience under his belt and several editions.

@SoraTamashii Cheezits

For me DM-ing is easier. I get so bored making a character that I can't even get past that part myself. Even when I am DM-ing, I have to ask my more experienced players to help when the newer players have issues.

@SoraTamashii Fascinating. I always love character creation to a point. Our group goes pretty heavy on the RP side whenever we get the chance.

Once the game is up and going, though... I normally am pretty good. I usually just use modified versions of the template monsters, add my own puzzles to the mix, make the NPCs when I get a spare moment to plug in some numbers, and voila.

@Rubiksmoose Yeah, I don't think I'd have taken to being a DM so quickly if there had been someone more experienced around, but as it was, we were on our own.

I used to have a spreadsheet I used to just "manufacture" NPCs.... That computer died...

6:29 PM

@SoraTamashii If it is the mechanical part of creating PCs that bores you in whatever system you play, consider playing a system with less crunchy character creation.

@SoraTamashii what sort of puzzles do you do?

Well, for now, I'm fine just DMing. I'm actually working on my own Type-Moon homebrew.

Question: At what point does a homebrew stop being D&D and start being its own game...? Is it before reworking the stat system or after gutting the item and monster lists.

?

Well, the golem puzzle I just said is one example of things I would do, but for an actual example... Let me think of a good one...

The problem is that D&D is both a system and a setting.

Touche.

It’s not like Fate where it’s solely a ruleset and thus setting-agnostic.

6:33 PM

@SoraTamashii When does a stick become a club?

@eimyr When you hit someone over the head with it ;)

True, As I said, this started as DnD with TM content homebrewed in... At some point it became much more clearly TM and much less clearly DnD. lol

@ACuriousMind There you go. D&D hacks stop being D&D when they are used to portray non-D&D stories.

My biggest gripe with Type-Moon is Nasu’s insistence on turning every historical figure into a female.

@SoraTamashii I mean, it also doesn’t help that Type-Moon clearly takes inspiration from D&D if you look at how some stat sheets are written.

@eimyr What if I use a hack that doesn't resemble D&D at all mechanically anymore to portray D&D stories?

6:36 PM

@eimyr When you host a party in it.

Oh, no, it is DnD. If you look at the Wikia, you can see it quite clearly. Nasu used DnD as the base system he built from. I'm basically just retroengineering his creation.

@ACuriousMind That's a different question.

@eimyr Well, if it was the same question I wouldn't have asked it again! ;)

"Does a game of non-D&D roots which in gameplay is used with the same purpose and to the same effect as D&D should be considered part of D&D family?"

VTC, opinion based.

The Map Is Not The Territory

►

6:45 PM

So, I had a dungeon set up. In it were three treasure rooms each guarded by different monsters serving as abstract representations of the preceeding in-game bosses. In order to progress, the party had to unlock a door by using a very specific item found in one of the treasure rooms.

To get to the rooms, they had a choice: fight the monsters, split up kiting the monsters away from the treasure room and sending someone inside, or convince the monsters to give them the key from within the correct treasure room in exchange for items belonging to the original bosses. By now, my party had realized fighting their way through wasn't the only option, so they spent a good chunk of time searching

for a secret way into the treasure rooms. After about a half hour irl, one of them finally remembered I was quite insistent they take ALL the loot, no matter how trivial it seemed, from the first boss. After some trial and error they figured out that one. This was one of the simpler "puzzles", but it was one of my favorites since I got

to toy around with the idea of making the puzzles be set up as early on in the campaign as possible rather than later.

@SoraTamashii Very nice. I'm always trying to figure out better ways to puzzle (mostly because our current DM does these really weird part in/part out of character puzzling and I'm never sure how meta the puzzle actually is)

but i don't like the idea of out of character puzzling

eats rice slowly in anticipation for a reply

Oh! Naut! Right while I was typing. lol

@NautArch I just plagiarize from Legend of Zelda.

@Yuuki Do you play the Zelda puzzle-solved chime when they complete one?

@Yuuki that's what one of our rotating DMs does - and it's great. I like trying to solve in-game puzzles. those are fun - especially when under a time constraint along with enemies.

6:55 PM

I like making challenges for my players, but have gotten use to offering Intelligence checks for hints.

@PeterCooperJr. I also kazoo the "item get" theme.

@NautArch I've never managed to come up with a puzzle without having one of two things happening: Either the players figure it out instantly, or it halts the game for far longer than I ever intended. These days I don't do puzzles, mostly.

I'll do an obvious one if it fits the theme of the location, but not otherwise

@ACuriousMind it doesn't help that we're usually not sober

@NautArch Speaking of puzzles, I don't know if you remember one you helped me design a few months ago?

ACuriousMind, that's why I try making my encounters be player's choice. They can take the puzzle, fight an encounter, or try to talk their way through. Some being more effective than others and, sometimes (often), one leading to the other.

6:57 PM

@ACuriousMind I think the key is to make it so that solving the puzzle makes the dungeon go faster (open up a hidden shortcut, activate a mechanism that kills a few monsters, etc.) without halting dungeon progress if unsolved.

@Yuuki If I throw a puzzle at my players most will stop until they have solved it even if they could possibly circumvent it :P

I was tempted once or twice to make this into an in-universe case of nerd sniping

It's hilarious when my players see a monster, think they have to kill it, then find out that they could have convinced it to give them the answer to the puzzle if they talked with it instead.

Somewhere there's an article on "three clue rule"… If there's something that the players must absolutely know or do in order to advance the plot, you really need at least three ways for them to learn or accomplish it. Since they won't figure out the first couple clues you throw at them no matter how obvious you think it is.

ACuriousMind, been there... done that. :3

@GreySage uh-oh. How'd it go?

7:00 PM

I made a puzzle consisting of the alphabet on the wall, and in order to spell out the password (which was readily available), they had to solve a bunch of minipuzzles using their different resources and skills.

It worked almost perfectly, and they really liked it

Peeter Cooper Jr., that's a good rule to go by.

@PeterCooperJr. i'd love to anonymously give that to our DM :)

A: On this infinite grid of resistors, what's the equivalent resistance?

33

Nerd Sniping! The answer is $\frac{4}{\pi} - \frac{1}{2}$. Simple explanation: Successive Approximation! I'll start with the simplest case (see image below) and add more and more resistors to try and approximate an infinite grid of resistors. Mathematical derivation: $$R_{m,m}=...

@GreySage Yes! How did you end up finally constructing it?

@Yuuki I'm a physics mod, you can rest assured I've seen the solution ;)

7:03 PM

Here's I think the article on Three Clue Rule. It's specifically about mystery-type challenges in RPGs, but I think the advice holds for any "chokepoint" needed to advance the plot. thealexandrian.net/wordpress/1118/roleplaying-games/…

@NautArch The password was 10 letters long, so I made 10 different puzzles, several letters had copies of the same puzzle, but I made sure each letter in the password was a distinct one.

For each puzzle they had to light up a crystal, usually by pushing a button or pulling a lever in some hard to reach place.

@GreySage very cool - and each character got their opportunity to shine?

@ACuriousMind but not a chemists mod, so you might not have

@NautArch Each of them got to solve at least one puzzle. One character took more spotlight than I would have liked, but they came up with solutions I hadn't anticipated, which is still good.

@ACuriousMind But can I be at rest without being acted upon by an outside force?

7:08 PM

@Yuuki Yes. Meditate and one shall put oneself at rest.

Taking a nap before work. Night.

@SoraTamashii See ya!

@GreySage were they solutions that you didn't plan on but accepted because they were clever?

@NautArch yup

GIven my last puzzle experience, it seems a good idea that if a player comes up with an answer that wasn't YOUR answer but is clever and uses the information you gave that such an answer should be rewarded.

7:14 PM

@NautArch I usually love those solutions and answers even more than the ones I had planned honestly

@Rubiksmoose O, to have a DM with that attitude.

@NautArch Yeah I've only seen bits and pieces of your descriptions but I definitely do not envy you :-/

@Rubiksmoose All I can say is that it's almost over. And then I can stop kvetching about him.

@NautArch Me thinks that very sentiment is why many people step up to DM at all.

@Adam It's why I wanted to try my hand at it. Unfortunately, I don't know when i will really be able to again.

Our set up had been our main campaign with that DM, and then we did an alternate where we'd rotate - but only play that if we couldn't get everyone at the table together.

But then we invited more people, and the alternate meets more regularly (to the point where I can't go as much) and now I can't really DM it unless I do a one-session game.

howdy @TimothyAWiseman

7:53 PM

The first sentence of the rule on cantrips says they don't use spell slots. The rule isn't kidding. #DnD https://twitter.com/RubiksMoose/status/949333634405806080

Tweeted by JeremyECrawford on January 5, 2018 at 6:55 PM

@Rubiksmoose MY LORD HAS SPOKEN AND I SHALL OBEY!

only the ghosts of supreme overbosses Gygax and Arneson can dissuade me now.

@Adam hahaha. yup I think this settles the matter, as pointless as it was to begin with.

@Rubiksmoose except for the folks who don't listen to JC alone anyway

but even worse, now we know your true name. And if spending the last few months reading the Dresden Files has taught me anything...that's a bad thing :)

gasp! my secret identity!

@PeterCooperJr. Alexandrian, maybe?

8:03 PM

@NautArch I mean is there really any doubt now? sure they could have written it better, but it is clear from the writing of cantrips, to the description of the spellcasting feature in the classes that this is what was intended. Any other reading was a stretch to begin with and really should now is really just incorrect.

59 mins ago, by Peter Cooper Jr.

Here's I think the article on Three Clue Rule. It's specifically about mystery-type challenges in RPGs, but I think the advice holds for any "chokepoint" needed to advance the plot. http://thealexandrian.net/wordpress/1118/roleplaying-games/three-clue-rule

Of course as has been mentioned, it really doesn't matter at all.

Ah, sorry. Catching up =\

@Rubiksmoose it just doesn't matter

@NautArch Wow he is so young in that!

8:06 PM

@Rubiksmoose you've never seen it?

@NautArch I have not actually.

@Rubiksmoose you must! one of my favorite movies. the sequels...not so much.

I shall add it to the list post haste :)

@PeterCooperJr. @nitsua60 I passed that ALexandrian link on to the guy who will be starting our new main campaign :)

TimothyAWiseman

@NautArch Good afternoon.

8:21 PM

Hello mis amigos

konnichiwa

8:53 PM

@BESW [oscillation accompanied by a transfer of energy]

[motion simultaneously observable as particle action]

The Super Magfest convention's directions to the tabletop hall:

9:09 PM

And the whole setup is just a trap to capture escaping logicians. None of the doors actually lead out.

@BESW You seem to understand about implementing theme and tone in a RPG, yeah? Can I get your feedback/advice on something?

Sure, go for it.

(Actually, anyone is free to chime in)
I'm preparing a campaign where the players essentially (are able to) become outlaws. Does that mean there should be some sense of an establishment/government to be outlaws against? Or can I achieve the same "fun" in a setting with no centralized governing authority?

Can't guarantee I'll be useful, but maybe other chatfolk can help too.

Hmm. What does it mean to be an outlaw in your game?

Why is it fun to be an outlaw?

Pirates on the high seas! Yarr! Avast! Shiver me timbers! Et cetera!

9:15 PM

So are they specifically being outlaws or are they just being pirates? Because being an outlaw inherently needs a law to be "out" of.

And to my understanding, the fun comes about because there's a sense of "sticking it to the man". So I'm wondering, if there is no "the man", then is the feeling hollow?

So, setting aside that IRL Western pirates from the 17th through 19th centuries tended to be refugees living short, miserable lives hiding in malarial swamps and only turning to pirating as a last resort against starvation, pirates in modern pop culture tend to be symbols of independence and "being your own boss."

Well @doppelgreener that's what I'm trying to figure out!

If you want a "stick it to the man" theme, pirates may not be specifically the best vehicle for it.

So, is it more a story of "frontier independence" (only pop-culture reference that comes to mind immediately is a Western like Firefly, but I don't think that's the best example), or more "outlaws are really the good guys against a corrupt government" like say Robin Hood?

9:17 PM

@PeterCooperJr. Both?

If you're in lawless wilds and you're robbing people, then you're just some dude robbing people, and if you're a powerful dude, you're a powerful dude picking on less powerful people and exploiting them to get by.

I could see the story of pirates being more battlling the elements of an unforgiving sea, where by "outlaw" you more mean "there's no societal infrastructure support"

Okay, lets back up a bit.

If you're in an established civilisation of some kind, then you've got an actual structural enforcement of something that you're poking against. If it's a spanning town with a sheriff, it's the sheriff you're messing with more directly.

What inspired you to start designing this campaign?

9:18 PM

@doppelgreener Exactly what I was thinking, okay!

But if you're just a Chaotic Evil band of pillaging and plundering, it goes back to "What is the Fun that you're trying to find out of doing that?"

@BESW This is an important question, yes

@BESW I discussed running a pirate-themed campaign with a group of players. They're all on board, pun intended, but I'm not 100% sure on how to capture the "pirate = fun" tone.

Okay, so "pirate" is an originating condition.

What pirate media do you all share a fondness for?

To get back to your original question on whether you need a "establishment/government to be outlaws against", I would think for any story you need an antagonist of some sort.

But that antagonist doesn't necessarily need to be "law and order in the city", it could be the elements, or it could be another band of pirates you're competing with.

Unless your goal is just to sit around saying "Yar, matey", and singing pirate songs. You don't need to have a story to have fun, but it often helps.

9:24 PM

In the recent Ixalan card set, the antagonists of the pirates are "the Merfolk, Dinosaur, and Mayincatec people guarding the way to the Golden City, which is, you know, golden, but also contains the binding magic that imprisons one of our bosses on this plane, and he'd really like to be able to leave, so he's having us find the place so he can destroy that binding magic."

@PeterCooperJr. I'm basically going through a checklist of pirate story motifs. Treasure, rival pirates, raiding, ship-to-ship combat, revenge, backstabbing, and yes, maritime songs.

@MikeQ What pirate media do you all share a fondness for?

@BESW I enjoy all pirated media.

Wait, no.

@MikeQ I don't think any of those require the establishment/government to be a key part of the story. It might be part of their background, and part of what compels them to their lifestyle, but I don't think it need to be front-and-center in your story in order for your group to have fun.

@MikeQ These things are all great, but they aren't themes. They're ingredients.

They help establish the scope of the story, but not the ideas the story trades in.

9:31 PM

@Yuuki I'm glad someone said it. I was thinking it.

@PeterCooperJr. The justification for the centralized power is: If I want to convey to the players that being unlawful is good, then it would help to make the antagonist lawful for comparison.

If being unlawful is good your central power has to be corrupt yeah?

Or otherwise a negative force in society

@Rubiksmoose Yes that's the idea. The story needs some sort of force that indicates that the players should become pirates. And I think something like "oppressive government" or "cruel lawman" work much better than a big wooden sign that says "YE BE PIRATES NOW".

Seriously though. Are we talking about Pirates of Caribbean, Muppet Treasure Island, Captain Johnson's A General History of the Robberies and Murders of the most notorious Pyrates, The Pirates of Penzance, Peter Pan, One Piece, Captain Harlock...?

@MikeQ a NEON sign that says that, however...

9:38 PM

@BESW Magical fantasy made up world. Appearance-wise it should resemble the golden age of piracy.

I'm asking what existing media you and your friends are drawing on for your shared notion of Things Piratical.

@MikeQ What is the tone though? is it deadly and serious? light-hearted and goofy? Epic and swashbuckling?

@Rubiksmoose Deadly, goofy, epic, and swashbuckling

These aren't spherical pirates in a vacuum, you all thought "pirate game" sounded good because of some pre-existing notion of pirates. The more you can keep a hand on that shared inspiration, the better your chances of an enjoyable coherent campaign... and the easier it is to identify the themes that your group will be expecting.

@BESW Oh. Then pretty much... any/all of the "western" media that you listed. Especially the muppets, Pirates of the caribbean, and treasure island. At least one player has read One Piece, and instructed me to look through it.

9:44 PM

Okay, that's a more solid place to put your feet.

It almost seems then like you want a comically evil government, not like hunger games grim and serious one

The thing with all of those is that, based on what I know of them, the government really isn't all that evil. At least, the government isn't the primary antagonist. The primary antagonists are other pirates who are evil/don't respect "the code" or have otherwise wronged your gang and are acting against your interests

(For reference, I like to think about influence maps when I'm designing a campaign.)

@Adam Sure. There's no reason I can't have both.

There isn't. But if your inspiration for wanting to have this kind of game takes that approach, you don't necessarily need a government or law to rebel against

you could take for granted that you all are pirates and go from there, or just have it so that normal life/culture doesn't accept the kind of adventure/goal that the players want to achieve.

I mean, the whole impetus for One Piece is that there is a pirate king, he dies, and his super mega treasure hoard is up for grabs. Chaos ensues. the players just have to come up with a reason for why they would be willing to put their lives on the line to go out and find a treasure like that, instead of just getting by as a fish monger for the rest of their lives.

Nathan Tuggy

9:53 PM

There's a persistent 1-rep user repeatedly dumping essentially the same bad suggested edits on the same pair of posts. Thoughts on how to handle this? So far, all have been rejected except the one currently pending, but I'd hate for one to slip through.

@Adam You mean just say "You are pirates and now you will go do pirate stuff", instead of giving the players a reason to turn to piracy?

@NathanTuggy flag for diamond moderator attention -- which you've done, more or less. :)

if you can't flag anything, flag anything random and link & point us to the problem

Nathan Tuggy

@doppelgreener Mission accomplished! :)

@MikeQ I'm saying your players are already convinced that they want to be pirates, so let them each decides for themselves why they decided to take up that life. And perhaps work with them to come up with some unifying goal. I've never played a game where the players start out as townspeople and become adventurers at the first session. We all start as adventurers.

I've temporarily revoked their ability to suggest edits. Hopefully that'll prompt them to explore other options.

Nathan Tuggy

9:56 PM

@doppelgreener But yeah, I suppose I should have thought of the flag-random-post trick; I've used it before.

@MikeQ How long do you want the campaign to last?

@Adam Hmm. When you put it that way, it seems rather obvious. I suppose that an in-game "origin story" really isn't necessary.

@BESW I don't know how to measure/estimate that in advance, because GM/player availability will vary over time.

That isn't to say giving them a "origin story" is bad. You can totally do that if you want. But I would probably ask the players if they just wanted to hop right into some pirate adventures and ask them what they think that adventure would look like.

@MikeQ One adventure, a series of loosely-connected adventures that could go on indefinitely, a grand campaign arc the moves through many adventures to an inevitable conclusion?

Looking at the media you've listed, the broad thematic strokes include: the law is narrow-minded and intractable, unable to handle the very existence of people or events outside its idea of citizenry. The law desires to punish people who don't meet its notion of citizens, and it ignores or exacerbates events it can't conceive of.

Pirates, then, are people who don't fit the law's notion of citizenry and/or people who want to deal with situations outside the scope of the law's capacity.

This also means that the law is a background motivator and occasional antagonist but not the primary motive for the scenarios of the campaign: their adventures tend to be about the stuff the law can't deal with because its sense of justice is too narrow, or its notion of the possible too limited.

The law is most often an obstacle which the pirates have the unique tools (mostly out-of-the-box thinking) to circumvent.

@BESW Let's say... one medium-sized campaign that has several "big objectives" and subplots, including 1. finding legendary treasure and 2. revenge against rival pirates.

10:04 PM

Pirates, in this formulation, are outlaws because they've been defined as outside the law for their natures, or because they seek things the law is unable to grasp.

What system are you considering using?

(BTW, this is why pirates in this mode have "codes." They didn't reject the law, the law rejected them and most of them still hunger for order--but they also mistrust order and know that some among them spite it out of principle.)

@Adam I mean, swap "government" with "British East India Company" for PotC, which effectively did happen back then, and you have "government is evil"-ish.

@BESW Pathfinder, specifically parts of the Skull and Shackles adventure path. I find it thematically interesting, but I think the story is weak. Instead of "yay we're pirates", there's a lot of "pirate NPCs are telling us what to do". So I want to change that.

If I were running this sort of campaign, I'd probably ask my players to have a Motive Statement (what drove you to piracy?) and a Crew Statement (what common belief or objective binds the crew together?).

And because I'd probably be using Fate, those would be character aspects.

...and I'd use mission briefings to set the adventures.

Smart idea, I like that. Let the players come up with their own motives, and then start from there.

Anyway, yeah. Thematically you need a law to be outside of, but it's probably not the main antagonist: you're outside of the law because you have objectives that the law can't encompass, making the law a reactionary obstacle (it's trying to stop you from achieving things) rather than a proactive opponent (it's trying to achieve something).

10:12 PM

the law is the extra spanner in the works that comes up at the worst time whenever inconvenient things need to happen and someone else isn't already positioned to do so.

Every now and then the law might get really uppity and send out an armada to hunt you down or something, but that's still going to be in reaction to what you've done.

Here's a key element to most juicy antagonists: if you sit and do nothing, they will achieve something you don't want them to achieve.

In most pirate stories, the law doesn't do that. The law is responding to the pirates. If the pirates sit and do nothing, the law doesn't bother going out to find them on principle.

Ok, sure, that fits with my plans. Rival pirate as an active antagonist, oppressive empire as a reactive/passive antagonist.

Wow @BESW is really good at this! I've learned so much and I'm not even DMing right now!

5

But no saving the world. Saving the world is for chumps. And paladins.

10:18 PM

It helps that, while pirates aren't my favorite thing, I've read Captain Johnson's A General History of the Robberies and Murders of the most notorious Pyrates and done research for including pirates in a few campaigns in the past.

some of this was from trials & tribulations we experienced. for example if we know what media we're drawing upon, we have a common basis of tropes, themes, and expectations. we ran into some issues in one of our sessions because BESW introduced a character drawing heavily upon some themes that were a bit antithetical to some of the other core themes of the game, and we didn't know that yet but recognised it around when it happened.

either that or it was just not in keeping with my own expectations? either way, neither of us knew there was a heavy divergence in expectations until we talked it over

Aye. If I can help others avoid the pitfalls we ran into, then you get to find exciting new challenges to overcome.

IRL pirates are very much unlike pop culture pirates, and it's interesting to see pop media try to make them edgy anti-hereoes without actually facing the grim reality of piracy.

and then share what you learned so we can avoid the same in turn :D

That's a thematic touchstone for you, by the way: anti-heroes.

@BESW And that's why I ban reality from my table.

10:24 PM

I actually ran a campaign about ten years ago with a character inspired by Jean Lafitte, as pirate king of a place very much like Barataria Bay.

Anyway, I do appreciate the advice - I'll discuss this with my to-be players. Much obliged!

The PCs helped him make the economic shifts needed so that he could stop trafficking in slaves without sending the entire region into starvation-level poverty.

@MikeQ Glad we could be useful! Let us know how it goes, please.