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1:39 AM
Early on in my time with the Stack, someone described it to me as a Grand Experiment not only in gathering and sorting quality content, but also (though secondarily) a Grand Experiment to teach people clear, effective communication skills.
 
1:50 AM
@Shalvenay IMO, never. One Good Thing is that we're always getting new users. Which means there are always people who need to learn the norms, and learn the experience(s) from which those norms are derived, and perhaps challenge those norms. (All those things in some order.) New people bubbling up and saying "hey, what's up with this!?" seems, to me, a sign of site health.
 
It also helps keep us from getting too content with The Way Things Are.
 
@nitsua60 that is a point
 
@Shalvenay I think at one point I used the metaphor of supervising the playground at recess. "When will the kids learn to stop hanging upside-down on the monkey bars!?" has a simple answer: never. Because there's always new kids.
(It's like how my students never get any better at math. Oh, I mean individually they do, but year after year... because it's always new kids. Twenty years from now I'll still be trying to get my geometry kids to understand cross-sections!)
3 days to new group. We still don't have a meeting location... =/
 
2:15 AM
@nitsua60 "I've been teaching you this for 20 years! Every time I think you've got it, we go off on vacation, and when we come back you've forgotten everything!" :P
 
@Adeptus Basically =)
 
@nitsua60 I mean, there's always the intertubeswebface.
It's not ideal, but generally you can find something that works for everyone.
 
It's a very common mindset-flip that young teachers need to make somewhere around year 3-5 of their careers. Because in those first few years you do see your students getting better: you're improving enough as a teacher that you do see year-over-year improvements "in your students." But that dies down pretty quickly (IME), so you get this existential crisis to deal with.
"What am I doing here? Year after year, it's not getting any better!"
Focus on the kids, Luke.
@Miniman Ugh, no way. I mean, we all live within 5 min. of each other. (It's an in-town group.) We've got to find a meat-place.
 
A meat-plaice meet-place?
Or you could game at the aquarium and it'd be a meet-plaice meat-place.
 
A butcher? A steakhouse?
 
2:23 AM
@BESW Hmm... tempting, but nearest aquarium's 90 min. away =(
@Adeptus 45 min. away on both counts...
Art gallery. An art gallery may have to do. We've got a dozen of those. (That's right: 12 art galleries, but neither a butcher nor a steakhouse.)
 
I once heard of a DFRPG campaign that the group set in their own city, and they'd game as close as possible to whichever location was most prominent for that particular session.
 
noice =)
 
in the meantime, I'm banging my head against a proverbial wall wondering what's taking electrical equipment manufacturers so long to make electrical panels with more than 42 spaces in them
(the NEC and UL 67 both had a 42 circuit limit, but that was lifted a decade+ ago)
 
Do YOU want to spend your life making books for very small audiences? Consider RPG publishing! #askmehow #onsecondthought #dontaskmehow
2
 
2:38 AM
@nitsua60 Library?
@BESW We once did a Mage campaign in our city. We bounced around it waaaayyy too much to do a "nearest public location" thing, but it's a cool idea.
 
@JoelHarmon I've got a friend who wants to run a zombie campaign set in near-future Guam, and he plans to take photos of locations and manipulate them to be more apocalyptic, as references for the game.
 
In fact, during that (year long) game I had to go on a business trip and couldn't make, it. So, conveniently, my character did, too. I started getting text messages from them, culminating in a phone call, while I was IMing the DM for clarification.
 
Heh.
 
@BESW I have a friend who likes to run a zombie-based game. It features the players themselves as characters, and starts with the DM dying some kind of horrible, zombie-related death.
 
Heh.
 
2:43 AM
You get things like "ok, I have XYZ tools in the garage, and some hammers in the basement. We can grab a broom as a holdover until then. Go!"
 
I'm not a big fan of zombie games, nor am I fan of "play yourself!" games. That would not be up my alley.
 
that one is also amenable to friends texting during the game
Also, we concluded quickly that actually statting up your friends will likely lead to.. disagreements. So he uses a Jenga-based system instead.
 
Dread?
 
@JoelHarmon Public library closes at 5pm. School library could work, as could our super-nice conference room, or our subterranean conference room. Basically, it's a question of "where do we want to be when security walks by and ogles us playing D&D?"
 
@BESW That sounds like it might be it.
 
2:59 AM
@nitsua60 When I played D&D in the university's music room, the security guard laughed at us for playing 3.5 instead of 2e.
 
@nitsua60 Subterranean. Putting the Dungeons in Dungeons & Dragons.
 
@BESW Have that guard send me their resume =)
 
 
2 hours later…
4:51 AM
"What this person did was awesome. I hear they were marked by Fate. Is that so?" "Definitely!" Fate said. "I mark everyone, just in case."
 
@BESW "I gave them a C-. They need to try harder."
 
...it says something that my first reaction to "marked" wasn't "graded", but "-2 to attacks against other creatures".
 
@Magician Yeah, my initial thought was "That's an interesting multisystem hack."
 
5:24 AM
@BESW [waive]
 
6:03 AM
Well plaid.
 
6:25 AM
[sigh] Every time I back a Kickstarter, I have to explain to my bank how they can lift the block so my charge doesn't get declined.
 
Does KS take paypal?
 
Yeah, but I have other problems with PayPal.
 
mmm ok
 
 
1 hour later…
7:51 AM
Hey, look, an RPG Kickstarter that describes its design goals.
2
 
8:09 AM
@BESW Ick. I pay for most of my Kickstarter stuff using a prepaid credit card — admittedly that's because most of my Kickstarter stuff is in a foreign currency and the card does FX at better rates than my bank — might that be an option for you to avoid that hassle?
 
@Quentin Prepaid credit cards are... weird... out here.
Guam's a kind of regional no-man's-land and anything tied to geographical tags, postal addresses, phone numbers--tends to go haywire.
 
:(
 
it's too bad because otherwise that would be a pretty nice option
 
I looked into it a few years ago and it seemed... unclear... whether and how it would work. At the very least it looked like I'd need to tie it to a mainland address and phone number instead of my own.
 
8:25 AM
Because of a sequence of unfortunate events, our group of last night now have to do the equivalent of half an adventure day with only one PC (in Pathfinder), who just drank her last potion.
I have no idea how we will manage to do that
 
@AnneAunyme with a great deal of care
 
There is a time constraint too
or it wouldn't be funny
and the module is supposed to be for 4 players
 
@BESW added to the pin \o/
 
 
1 hour later…
10:05 AM
3
Q: How to ask a question when you don't know the english name and references of a spell?

Drag and DropI have a question about a spell in Deadland Reloaded. But I'm french and every book I have about it are in french. I have hard time find the english translation of many point. Making it hard to ask about. I actually have a question about a skill that allow a mad scientist to craft one object onc...

 
10:57 AM
Ki Khanga has begun mailing books.
 
 
1 hour later…
12:00 PM
@BESW nice
 
12:28 PM
I have a sudden urge to sulk about Alas Vegas :)
 
1:03 PM
Hmm?
 
1:29 PM
@AnneAunyme what module is it?
@BESW i gave up on calling my bank because of kickstarters....
 
Oh, I walk in and look at 'em.
 
Here i can't do that, because they will simply write down the phone of the credit card provider and ask me to call them, as they have no power on what they declined or not.
So after like, 5 or 6 failed kickstarter backings, i gave up, i now wait for stuff to be available elsewhere so i can buy them.
 
Yeah, my bank has a third-party security vendor for online card transactions, with whom they will not let me speak. So it's all a game of (literal) telephone.
 
1:45 PM
@ShadowKras The credit card company should be able to tell you WHY something is declined. I process cards daily and see at least some information on my side as a business (address mismatch, invalid #, etc.). Some say "please call your card issuer" and have to direct my customers to do that and let us know.
 
@ShadowKras My bank usually does it in one phone call. My card declines, they call me and ask if I'm me, I confirm it is indeed the case, I say something along the lines of "I use that website to pay for stuff that doesn't exist, really. I want to do that lots. Can you help?" and they put in a rule saying it's A-OK for me to act like I won the lottery, until I decide to do that on a different site.
 
Ah, they do tell me why, the transaction was made by an untrustworthy source or something along those lines, they suspect its a fraudulent website.
 
maybe they can do the same for you?
 
I lost count on how many times i asked them to "white-list" kickstarter.com
 
welp, not a very customer-friendly bank
which country is that in?
 
1:51 PM
brazil
 
maybe you can call Visa (MC, Amex etc.) instead?
 
It is indeed not a customer-friendly bank, but it is still a pretty good one, the problem is being a popular bank (most customers), that affects their customer service quite hard.
 
Yes, I"d suggest calling the card issuer (if that's your bank, you're kind of out luck)
 
2:22 PM
@ShadowKras Daughters of Fury (if I get the correct translation)
 
3:08 PM
my cheese question doesn't seem as cheesy now after further thought.
 
I think we should pin this to KS stuff @doppelgreener @BESW
It's amazing, teen rage filled and has been around for a while.
 
@eimyr this is funny. :D
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3
 
@NautArch No, it's actually just a good question. I'm not sure you'll get a better answer than "ask your DM" though.
 
@Adam Yeah. At first I thought it was cheese because of creating a safe way to travel, but then I realized it's unclear what the actual physical space requirements are for it.
I'm debating about altering it to be more about that then the stationary question (or maybe a follow-up question...although that seems very duplicate-like.)
I don't love the only answer, either. Making it not about physical space,but narrative need.
 
@eimyr <------ @JuneShores
 
3:23 PM
I was going to write an answer about the orbiting of planets and all that but since you specifically asked for "ground vs surface it was cast on" That line of thought doesn't actually lead anywhere
nevermind; lead makes negative sense
Mearls said something about it in sage advice, but Mearls is Mearls, so it isn't any better than the answer that you already got.
 
I had considered the whole planetary movement means nothing is stationary so that vehicles would be fine, but that's introducing real world physics into the fantasy :)
@Adam what did mearls say?
 
@Adam answer post! gogogo
 
The more I think about that, the more it makes sense (even if it borders on the cheese.) If you can cast tiny hut on the shore of a lake and have it extend into the water, I don't see what the difference is.
still not sure about physical obstructions (walls, trees, etc.)
 
The lead that I was thinking about working with was from JC but under his assumption, the dome doesn't seem stationary at all.
 
3:33 PM
sort of - a dragon isn't really a stable platform, either.
 
@doppelgreener Eh. Mearls can only talk as a DM, which is already what the current answer essentially says, "ask your DM", followed by some personal advice.
 
@Adam oh ok
 
@NautArch Tiny hut doesn't say it needs a stable platform though.
 
I imagine the next Paranoia release will come with declaring three different individuals as always authoritative and correct as a rulings source, and tasking them with always contradicting each other
 
@doppelgreener Err... What does June has to do with it? Why is it funny?
I'm at a total loss here
 
3:36 PM
@Adam Slipping off isn't Stationary, either. Stationary would be dragon moves, hut doesn't.
 
@eimyr I find the writing style of the kickstarter humorous, and I think it's the kind of thing June might potentially be interested in.
 
Well, it could also be "Dragon moves, hut moves with it" But "Dragon moves, hut slides off" is definitely not stationary.
 
The game isn't new though.
For a moment I thought June is doing art there.
 
@Adam Which seems to contradict the spell description. Love me some JC!
 
It's definitely unintentional. Either because he forgot that they said it was stationary, or because he knows what they meant when they wrote down the spell, and assumed that it came across as intended.
 
3:48 PM
the use I had for it I realized may be encounter breaking, so I don't think i'll do it.
 
What use was that?
 
we're on a 30' long boat within a cave system of some variety. There were several containers of ashes surrounding a metal sarcophagus on the boat. In last session, a number of PCs (I wasn't there, I swear!) dumped the ashes into the water. My thought was to wrap the sarcophagus in chains and dump it overboard (possibly casting heat metal.) Then have either another PC (or me, if I didn't do Heat metal), cast tiny hut on the boat and be on our way for 8 hours of safety (pending no dispel magic)
 
How would that break the encounter? Sounds like a fine plan to me
 
Mostly that if we have time (we may not) it ends the encounter before it starts.
But either way, I'm tossing that sarcophagus overboard
 
4:03 PM
I find Leomund's Tiny Hut and similar spells to be rather troublesome in their way.
Either one's GM does nighttime surprise encounters and the spell winds up being cast every night as a no-brainer safety measure, or they don't and it's a wasted spell pick.
Glad to see there's other uses for the little dome than sleeping in, though.
 
@kviiri lucky it is a ritual. I got it as a quest reward with my tomelock :)
and even if there are no night raids, there can be rain, snow, cold...
it makes camping trivial
 
Well even then its usefulness depends a lot on whether one's GM likes night raids or bad weather effects.
 
yes, it is situational, but so is, say, fireball. If there is noone wanting to murder you, it has no use
 
I recently had this dilemma with See Invisible. Is it worth a pick, knowing that we might have absolutely no invisible creatures against us whatsoever? Especially given that the GM, knowing I have the spell, might decide to either throw in invisible creatures just to make it useful or alternatively, hold back on those since I can see them anyway.
 
@kviiri a 2nd level slot is not "anyway"
 
4:12 PM
@Szega Well that's sorta true, but combat is a far more integral part of any DnD game I've been to than camping activities have ever been.
 
not until high levels
@kviiri then its back to ask your DM. if it is clear that he hand-waves travel then just skip it...
 
@NautArch I don't see how the encounter isn't over the second the sarcophagus is overboard, regardless of the hut.
 
@Szega Our party rests far more often than I would like to, unfortunately. I haven't had a shortage of spell slots since level 4.
 
@kviiri oh, warlock as well?
 
@Szega Bard.
 
4:15 PM
@kviiri you mean you guys take a lot of long rests?
 
@Szega Yep.
 
that should bite you in the behind someday..
 
This is one of the things that I find distasteful about DnD 5e. Even if everyone reads the same books, the ultimate mileage varies a lot by the GM.
It's as if it wasn't a single game at all, more like a huge family of closely related games and I'm never quite sure if my friends are playing the same one I am.
 
@kviiri the price to pay to quell rules-lawyering, I guess / hope
 
@kviiri has there ever been an edition of D&D where the DM couldn't completely ruin a night?
 
4:19 PM
@Szega Decoy behind. Absorbs the consequences of your actions so you don't have to. Good for one use, discard once bitten. Use responsibly, or don't.
 
@Adam I dunno, I only ever played 4 and 5. There's many other systems where GM's role is a lot more carefully specified and that result in a more uniform experience by reading the books alone, though.
 
gtg now, later folks
 
@Szega Weeeell... I find every DnD party begins with a discussion of which rules to keep and which ones to ditch :P
 
@eimyr Yes, I've come to found out.
I still like playing it because my pals and I have roughly compatible ideas of the game.
 
4:24 PM
and that's fine!
 
But even then we occasionally have significant mutual disagreements, far more often than with other systems. For example, on the relationship of combat and off-combat activities, known versus obscured information, "Mother, May I" -style of gaming and yes, even how often our party takes a rest.
 
but these days you have to work extra hard to convince me to play wide-focus RPGs. Say, if you want to play D&D with me, you have to tell me everything about what the story is going to be, what is the pace at which we move through it, what will be emphasized etc. etc. On the other hand, if you tell me "let's go play Monsterhearts" I ask no further questions.
 
@eimyr Heh, are you me?
 
Might be. I'm not Finnish though.
 
I have some really nasty experiences with badly same-paged DnD 4e, we took a lot of pains to ensure that doesn't happen with our 5e game and yet we have these disagreements all the time.
 
4:27 PM
(e.i. somehow in my brainspace user kviiri is from Finland. There's a few assumptions like that about everyone, and you get Finland. I haven't the slightest clue whether it's actually true or not.)
 
@eimyr I was working late yesterday and did post some stuff regarding the history around here, that might be where you picked it up from ;)
 
I wasn't here yesterday.
 
So yep, true.
 
Maybe I was logged in, but not at the keyboard.
 
You receive the chat directly into your subconsciousness then?
 
I...doubt that. It wouldn't be approved by Friend Computer unless it was.
 
@kviiri My next campaign (starting Thurs) I'm going to try Angry's time pool. If you think of it, ask me in a month how it's going.
 
@Adam I probably need to work on timing so that piece happens last. Let the tiny hut nearly finish and then move it out via levitate. Once out, cast heat metal, finish the tiny hut and be on our merry way.
 
@nitsua60 Thanks!
 
If there really is something dangerous in that sarcophagus, and your DM doesn't just have it bust out and start mummy punching you 3 minutes into casting tiny hut, I will eat my hat.
 
4:34 PM
@eimyr One of the curious thing I've learned about GMing when alternating DnD and Apocalypse World is that while players, both new and old, tend to be totally paranoid about hidden traps, they're totally ready to dive headfirst towards obvious, or even explicit, traps. It's delightful as heck!
 
@Adam the chains will help keep it in. But I'd also expect that to be the starting point too
 
@kviiri OK, so I have a confession to make. In most roleplaying situations, I'm the player who will make his character fail on purpose to see what interesting situation it will bring about. I avoid by-the-numbers-on-the-dice failure as much as the next person, but if I can make a bad decision, I hecking will.
 
@eimyr I guess it's a psychological thing: if a NPC wants to buy the party's Artifact of Doom for "safekeeping" and they roll insight to see if the guy is lying, they might lack trust in me as well because I tried to conceal the buyer's shiftiness from them. Whereas if I say upfront that the guy looks totally evil and cackles fiendishly, it's like they trust me to make it fun if they "fall for it".
Also, I guess the latter decision is easier in a sense because at least the players know completely what they're doing. In the former case, they might worry about some meta stuff like accidentally derailing a fine plot or something.
 
@kviiri Nah, it's more of a fail-safe vs fail-deadly situation. If your motivation as a player is to have fun, and fun is had by doing awesome things in awesome situations, rolling a "1" is inherently detrimental. It means you don't get to do that thing you wanted and will have to do something you don't want to make up for it (like drink a potion instead of buying a cool sword, or chase a MacGuffin instead of seeing through the evil priests lies).
On the other hand, choosing failure means that this failure can be made awesome and generate further awesome situation, especially in systems that reward failure, as is the case in Fate and some win-loss cycled mechanics. PbtA also encourages this sort of roleplay.
If you choose to fail it's a part of the story. It didn't cost you resources, it wasn't a failed try, it brought no disappointment. Fail-safe.
heck, I should make it into a blog post
 
Please do!
 
4:44 PM
[encouragement blush]
 
I was actually quite bewildered when I first experienced this phenomenon. I had been reading online RPG forums for ages prior to my first actual experiences. Heard all the tales of players who try to detect every lie, every trap, inspect every corner meticulously. And I had even seen a bit of that in action. And then suddenly we play a bit of Apocalypse World with a different group and these guys are making all sorts of bad calls - but interesting ones.
 
There are two further contributors to this situation - player-pc mode switching and bleed.
 
Oak
@eimyr hello person I don't know. Just wanted to let you know that I made a better alternative to anamap, which I see you've mentioned before. Mine's at www.mipui.net/app.
3
 
@nitsua60, I don't have time to read the whole article, but that first example, as far as I can tell, is a really shitty one. "This lady is important to D&D because her first module was purged before it hit the shelves, and then she quit"
 
The first one is a situation where a player makes decisions based on their own desires, which are different from the character's motivations. It requires a little bit of detachment from being completely invested and projecting oneself into the character. It shows up in PbtA in the form of upfront list of things you can choose to happen if you fail, and Fate does it very well with the compel mechanics.
@Oak I've been mentioning it all the time ever since I saw it. Are you by any chance ANAmap's author too?
 
Oak
4:50 PM
@eimyr Nope, but anamap was my inspiration.
@eimyr Didn't know you've seen it, sorry for the spam. It's just that if I were you I would have been happy if someone had pointed it out to me :-) it took me way too long to find anamap to start with.
 
hey all. how is everyone?
 
@kviiri Bleed, on the other hand is a situation where a player is so immersed in the narrative that some of the emotions that the character would feel are also "bleeding" into the player. This makes for a very powerful play, because then the player might choose to make decisions based on the character's perceived emotional response, leading to Bad But Interesting. Bleed, however, requires a very safe space to roleplay and lots of trust and confidence in the group.
Thus, being super-upfront about the worldbuilding, never lying, having the consequences of failure known before attempting action is very helpful.
 
@godskook If you read on it makes a lot more sense, she contributed a bunch of stuff, but I agree including a random factoid about how this persons work was rejected because they didn't follow the established guidelines seems... odd.
 
@Oak OH MAI GAWD, I think I have a new favourite mapper
 
@Ryan howdy howdy!
 
4:57 PM
@godskook yeah--I think the lede suffers a bit. I think they're going for a strong metaphor--literally trashing their first woman's work--but flub it a little?
@eimyr Yeah, I'm a fan, too. (cc:@Oak)
 
@Oak Are you on Gplus?
 
Although I'll admit I spent a few hours this weekend with butcher paper and Crayola markers making regional and town maps and an exterior drawing of a citadel. Maybe a new second-favorite mapper =)
 
I like drawing single-encounter maps and larger geopolitical maps, but I absolutely abhor the idea of having to make a city map.
 
@nitsua60 Hah! Nice!
I do have this fantasy of drawing a large, complete dungeon map that could be played entirely in "encounter mode" if needed. But it'd take a lot of work for a large, diverse area.
 
5:08 PM
@nitsua60 One day, someone will look at my bookmarks at work and wonder why I have so many DnD tools there...
 
@GreySage, looking at her wiki page, her work prior to that module seems utterly common and unremarkable relative to anyone else on staff, and her career was relatively short. Like, she was clearly a promising talent, or else they wouldn't have trusted her with the Orange Version in the first place, but that module's purging is kinda the only remarkable thing about her, because of itself.
 
Oak
@eimyr Not really, I just published it there on advice from this chatroom
 
@Oak I'll be headed there to boost your signal a little bit. Is there a post I could share or something?
 
Oak
@eimyr Cool! My original post was plus.google.com/114999688857202765590/posts/X4umeEEikCA, but honestly I don't really care and you can publish your own thing
 
@Oak Have you posted it to populous communites about RPGs? The world needs to know!
 
Oak
5:15 PM
@eimyr I kept searching! I posted to r/dnd and r/rpg on reddit, and to osr and map-making on google+, and to cartographer's guild and enworld and rpg.net forums. But most of these got very little traction. I then posted to the d&d 5e group on facebook and it got a lot of traction there, so that was my biggest thing so much. Other popular forums are more restrictive about self-promotions (e.g. giants in the playground forums) so didn't post there.
 
@Oak I think you can get some following through G+ Communities, I'd recommend sharing it there. It then doesn't matter how many followers you have, because you're reaching a wider audience.
 
@Oak Any chance of hex mode at some point?
 
hmm, my little notifier says there are 3 posts awaiting review, but when I click it, there are none...
 
@kviiri @Oak This.
 
We usually play hex grid, but switch to square when we have urban or otherwise build encounters if it feels more appropriate.
 
Oak
5:24 PM
@nitsua60 btw I fixed a few things, among them you no longer have to chase the resize buttons around
 
Someone had a great blog post somewhere about conceiving cities that made me once think "okay, maybe I can try this next time." But I didn't bookmark it at the time and have never rediscovered it. I think there was a temple. And maybe a statue. And some gates. Sound familiar to anyone?
 
Oak
@eimyr Hmmm... sounds very social. I'm not sure I'm active enough for that
 
Anyway, I have to go now. See you guys at a different time.
Au revoir and all that .)
 
@Oak cool! I'll be poking at it a little more this weekend =)
 
@Oak You don't really need to be, but it's one way of bringing your creation to wider audience, like posting on reddit.
 
Oak
5:28 PM
@kviiri For the initial version I designed it to be sort of agnostic to the grid shape, so it could have worked. But since then more square-grid-specific choices have been made, and at this point a hex mode will require a lot of effort. Plus, I remember that I surveyed the current offerings some time ago and there were some pretty solid hex options (maybe I was wrong?). In any case, I think it's better to improve the current thing instead of veering on the hex path.
 
5:48 PM
Folks! Would you kindly give me your honest opinion? plus.google.com/115974181565562019090/posts/3VBqXNBkGuk
 
eimyr, I like both options with caveats ;)
 
@eimyr both sound really interesting! Some grammatical clean-up needed, but otherwise those are two intriguing directions.
 
I would say generally that "Lesser Evil" seems similar to other RPG's (Shadowrunners are almost always anti-heros IMO), and "After Adventures" seems really cool but may only cater to a small audience
 
@NautArch point the bad grammar out to me. I need to fix it.
 
@eimyr there will be adventures on #1?
 
5:55 PM
@eimyr 2nd sentence of After Adventures: "Fit into"
 
#2 could be describing d&d and i couldnt tell the difference.
 
I mean all of whom are morally ambiguous people and The game gives each character a set of skills that are mostly aggressive and harmful, and the mechanics emphasize the volatility of the conflicts
 
@ShadowKras -- Exactly
 
@ShadowKras errr... yes, but veiled. If your party runs out of Wealth or Reputation, they might need to have a single-scene-and-done adventure, after which you return to try again to, say, buy yourself a house in the city when you're just a dirty peasant who got lucky with that dragon.
 
5:56 PM
@eimyr possible, but good be preference: 2nd sentence of Lesser Evil "morally ambiguous people AND"
 
@ShadowKras yes, but please do not read "conflict" as "combat"
 
Ah, you should address the difference
 
@eimyr tell that to my players... =D
 
two people read that as combat.
 
@eimyr last sentence of same section: remove comma after Adventuring at start of sentence
 
5:58 PM
And honestly, the name misled me, i thought it would be a game about playing as lesser evil-doers, like goblins or imps.
 
@NautArch I'm really thankful for that bit of editing.
 
Are we supposed to be sharing our opinion on content or grammar? o.O
 
@eimyr no worries! But as a whole, these are two really interesting concepts.
 
The concept behind Lesser Evils sounds like the Song of Ice and Fire RPG
or dragon age rpg aswell
you could borrow some ideas from both of those titles.
 
I'm sure it does.
I initially wanted it to be a Dogs in the Vineyard hack for Witcher universe
 
6:02 PM
The Witcher is a setting i would like to play
 
but I decided neither of these would ultimately serve my design goals well
 
and no, i wouldn't play as a witcher, those guys are like the xmen
 
they are!
there is a Witcher RPG by R.Talsorian games in the making, so you might be in luck
it will be, by the looks of it, focused on adventuring.
@BanjoFox I think I'd like you to give me your opinion on whether the games there are of interest to you. But if you see a grammar error, feel free to point it out.
 
I know.
Im currently brainstorming a game on the Darkest Dungeon setting.
 
So I guess I kind of wanted a game that tells stories like the ones in The Witcher, but without all that boring combat and contracts and whatnot.
 
6:07 PM
That's what I'd thought originally :)
Like I'd commented previously, both sound like interesting plots but as others have pointed out there may already be games out there which are similar. I would also worry about how big of an audience you might get for them.
 
Well, sure, there are similar games. It's very very hard to make a game that's not at least a bit like something else, especially when someone, somewhere surely used D&D to play a game with the exact same concept as the one you have.
 
True.
 
I have been a tiny little bit deceptive about this post - because I really like Lesser Evil a lot and am definitely going to write it. I wanted to see how it fares in comparison to the other one.
 
@eimyr I saw the work-in-progress at TotalCon a few months ago. What they had was good.
 
@T.J.L. I'd be interested to hear what it was like!
 
6:14 PM
@eimyr I caught Mike and his son as they were wrapping up for the evening, so I didn't really have my hands on it for long. I couldn't give you any specific details from memory. It was mostly a quick, once-over impression.
 
@eimyr - Full disclosure though. I suppose I am somewhat (a lot) bitter about online WoD gaming communities fighting over an already small player base ;)

In brief: why re-write an existing concept and split the audience.

Would I play Lesser Evil? Yes
Would it get Witcher fans into tabletop RPG's? Yes
 
It seems like his son is doing most of the work on it. Mike himself is mostly concentrating on Cyberpunk.
 
@BanjoFox It's not the same concept, at least as far as I can recognise it. R.Talsorian Witcher is a branded fantasy mainstream product about adventuring in Witcher world. Lesser Evil is a non-branded focused small indie game that takes a specific narrative (crapsack world, moral ambiguity, implicated characters, no good choices) and makes it happen in a non-specific setting.
 
Fair enough :)
 
Well, it might be that I'm completely wrong.
 
6:24 PM
You will have rules to handle those narrative aspects though?
 
well, I will have rules to handle those narrative aspects first and foremost
everything else is secondary
 
Honestly, I do not know as I am not that familiar with the Witcher. The "existing concept" comment was more related to the previous beef about online WoD chats :)
 
6:36 PM
@eimyr Oooh, now I see what you meant with "it's not my kind of game, but I will try fourthcore" ;)
 
@Zachiel Yeah, that's just about the main point of it :D
 
7:01 PM
2
Q: Refining "DM is playing mind games with us!"

Krzysztof SkibińskiToday I asked DM is playing mind games with us! under impulse, focusing on sharing concerns and not on overall quality. So varied answers and some comments made me think it's almost too opinion based or "not a question". Additionaly hasty translation provided early misunderstandings. I'd like to...

 
7:52 PM
1
Q: How should we incorporate Rules As Fun (RAF) into answers?

NautArchThere have been a few times that answers have come up with an interesting twist of the rules. They are neither RAI or RAW, but instead a novel way to use something that's cool. Does the stack voting accommodate for those answers (with either up or downvotes) or should we try and avoid BASING ans...

 
@KorvinStarmast I swear i'm not trying to be a nofunstickinthemud.
 
8:22 PM
@NautArch I'm not quite sure I follow what you mean by that post. I mean, the second part's clear enough, but what's the first part getting at? "Does the stack voting accommodate for those answers?" What're you asking?
 
I guess I"m asking if we let downvotes handle those types of answers.
I feel kind of like a no-fun jerk, but I feel this site is more about how to use the rules as they are (and how to have fun within those constraints.) Purposefully trying to promote/support those answers is my concern.
 
I still don't follow. What needs to be handled? Or put another way: what's different about an RAF-based answer vs. any other? Every Stackizen gets to vote up, down, or not, probably based on how well they think the answer addresses the question/solves the problem. I'm not seeing (and probably because I'm just very obtuse) what's different here.
@NautArch Are you saying you'd like to see more RAF content?
 
@NautArch I am disagreeing with what "the answer" needs to look like, not your points which have some good sense behind them.
 
@nitsua60 Quite the opposite.
 
The voters will influence what the better answer looks like based on whatever RPG.SE hive mind exists among those who vote. That is a bit of a moving target.
If supported by a good rational or presentation of why this works at table, and how I've made something work at table, a ruling based answer that doesn't tramp all over game mechanics can be a highly voted answer. I think Erin's on to something, and the initial feed back on her answer got her to tighten it up. Feedback is a good t hing.
but I feel this site is more about how to use the rules as they are That's one view of how a game works, and I'd be cautious in asserting that such is the core purpose of this site ...
 
8:38 PM
@KorvinStarmast this clarification would definitely help me. I may have misunderstood, or just apply that style to my own answers.
 
I posted an answer a while back about the DM role playing, rather than roll playing, when it came to social interactions and Dyndrilliac got all up in my grill about that, I na comment accusing my answer of being "absurd" to not just use a mechanic and force an RP conclusion on a player.
 
I'm just worried that if we base too many answers on skewing of rules, it leads to confusion on the rules rather than clarification.
 
My answer didn't change, and I didn't get as up into D's grill as I was tempted to, since I do not agree with removing player agency when they are doing a social interaction. Others would rather let the dice speak and not call upon Player Skill in an RP game. If you prefer to be a rules stickler in your answers, fine, but we've all answered questions where the rules are not specific, and provided a ruling recommendation based on reason/logic/how things have worked.
Answers need not be rules centric, but as a game is framed by its rules, even an RP game, one can't just tramp all over them. (See also Dave Arneson's old chestnut about the real enemy being the rules lawyers).
As to "I'm just worried" let it flow, and let the votes settle things over time, and make comments where the rules are either being badly supported, incorrectly cited, or the reasoning simply isn't there.
 
It can be very easy to allow for a loose interpretation to open the door to a conclusion. The Mage Hand question is an example of that (in my mind.) I'm not trying to be a Rules Stickler, but I don't think the logic that leads to her conclusion is sound (although it is fun.)
 
You've made your points, so we let the votes accumulate, or not. If a year form now a DM trips across that and likes it, we've (collectively) helped one more person. That's a good thing.
 
8:44 PM
Absolutely. And I hope you're not taking offense at this discussion. I'm still relatively new here and learning my way, and these are helpful to me.
 
@T.J.L. No idea why someone downvoted you, your answer seems to be correct and you got it in first (which makes me wonder if the other person was downvoting to try and get theirs on top). Answer Accepted.
 
heck no, no offense! This is us talking about stuff. Here, have another beer!
 
I just have to remember my answer style isn't someone else's...and that's okay.
 
I just saw this link by eimyr: It’s everything and therefore nothing. This is its legacy and its tragedy. D&D doesn’t exist. A mass hallucination, an alluring mirage, a promise that cannot be fulfilled. It is not a game. It is a cultural artifact Crap like this make me want to pee all over the internet.
 
I think I need to reframe my approach from "answers need to be rules-centric" to "answers need to be well supported by the rules, but can still be fun and different."
 
8:48 PM
@nitsua60, what ever happened to that private chat room we had? Did you do anything with it?
 
@Nautharch Answers need to be well supported. Period. Rules are a form of support, but not the only form. "we support a plurality of play styles."
 
@KorvinStarmast, experience is a form of support as well?
 
@KorvinStarmast out of curiosity...because I'm feeling daft...what's another way to support answers that aren't the rules?
@KorvinStarmast ha, nevermind?
 
@godskook yeah, though it depends on the question to where the right mix/balance is. Some questions are "I don't get how these rules work" and those are highly rules centric in nature. I think you are seeking a general rule and I feel that may be a mistake.
 
"The rules don't work well here in my experience(expand this) and here's teh houserules I use instead"?
 
8:56 PM
I am not going to approve a general statement, but there are questions that seem to fit what you just wrote in terms of needing that style of an answer. (IMO, KRyan has a lot of good answers along those lines for some of the PF and 3.5 stuff)
 
One of the things that drew me to RPG.SE was that the answers seemed better supported than what I was reading on GiTP (nevermind, the long threads/arguments, etc. cluttering the discussion). As someone learning how to play, I wanted a better understanding of how it was supposed to work. This has let me get a better understanding when/how to bend the rules.
 
@NautArch I feel that's why we usually criticize answers that go fo the "I do this at my table and it's fun" without spending some time dealing with the rules first. And I said the rules, not RAW or RAI.
 
@Zachiel Back to the daftzone...what are the rules vs RAW/RAI?
 
Yeah, it's not either or, it can be both.
@NautArch Depends on the game system. In 5e Crawford is big on RAW, RAI, RAF harmony, and The Rules Serve the table. I read his philosophy as being very "we are not trying to create an airtight algorithm."
 
@NautArch well, RAW is pedantic interpretation, RAI is what the authors explained. There's a middle ground that's just "what it looks sensible that the authors wanted to say"
 
9:03 PM
Please appreciate my bias. I grew up with a D&D that was as intended a wide open game. Each table was a bit different, and That Was A Good Thing! This computer age standardization mind set bugs the heck out of me. (So does McDonald's in France ...)
 
@Zachiel, this stack uses a MUCH harsher standard for RAI than I'm used to elsewhere.
 
(Of course what looks sensible to different people is not always a constant and that's why there's so much discussion over rules in D&D
 
I'd rather see four or five answers, each subtly different, for voters and users to choose from than "one right answer" unless there is a very simple/explicit "the mechanic is this due to (list reasons) that is widely misunderstood or the refs are hard to piece together.
 
@godskook Probably it's applying RAW to RAI: RAI is literally "rules as intended". I feel like there's some sort of sensibilization crusade going on that basically says "RAI means Rules as Intended, stop doing like the rest of the internet does and use those three letters to mean something very specific" XD
(I also think KRyan being vocal about this is the main reason this is happening, but I don't see this as a negative thing, so I'm going with the flow.)
 
@NautArch The improvement over GiTP is the better signal so noise ratio, and the format.
 
9:07 PM
@Zachiel, I've yet to hit any issue just warping my own terminology around the usage difference, but its obnoxious imho.
 
Plenty of savvy and passionate RPGers there.
 
@KorvinStarmast, the downside being that I'd never ever recommend this stack to a player because I feel they would be actively hindered by the community here.
 
How so?
There are a number of good answers to beginner questions.
 
@KorvinStarmast, the number of beginner questions I've seen closed for really poor reasons, comments deleted for really poor reasons, etc, etc.
 
I'm still bummed on the removal of system rec questions, but I'm not starting that sh88 storm up again.
The SE conceit is a good question, and a lot of people are too lazy to do any research. That creates a barrier to entry, to be sure.
 
9:11 PM
I only stay for 3 reasons:

1.The chat rooms aren't bad.

2.I'm addicted to points in all its forms.

3.I can't just criticize something and leave. I gotta be the change I wanna see in things.
 
OMG MISSPENT YOUTH KICKSTARTER!?
 
@godskook I found the tone here annoying at first, but I'm a stubborn old cuss so I don't scare off easy.
 
@KorvinStarmast, its not the SE conceit, as pointed out by this: rpg.meta.stackexchange.com/questions/7249/…
 
@BESW I already had a mis spent youth, do I need to raise money for another one, or does that imply I need to raise funds for my mid life crisis too?
 
Its -this- stack.
 
9:13 PM
With respect, godskook, the entire SE/SO conceit comes from asking experts good questions, not questions that are a waste of an experts time. There's a great link to an article about that in terms of how to ask a bunch of software experts a question ... over on SO, I lost my browswer history or I'd provide it.
 
@godskook I'm working on answer for that (I up voted his question)
I don't agree with his interpretation, but I do agree with his intentions.
Requiring some effort before you ask and putting together a well thought out question helps the site.
Not doing so may be more friendly, but it'll hurt the quality in the end.
 
Yeah, I upvoted the question, as the latent hostility (albeit unintentional) to new users is something I have commented on before. Sometimes the community modding effort gets a bit overzealous.
 
@KorvinStarmast, I'm not addressing that conceit and have already said so. Do you ahve a reason you think I'm addressing that conceit despite my saying I'm not?
 
It seemed we disagreed on there being one in the first place, so perhaps I misunderstand your intention.
PS: Christianity.SE had to learn the hard way to have some pretty tight rules, but that is in a lot of ways an artifact of the subject matter and the amount of noise it attracts.
 
The Stack Network's default attitudes are actually quite strict; most Stacks have chosen not to enforce them, or (more often) been unable to. And some Stacks are even stricter than rpg.se!
Generally speaking, it's more useful to compare this sort of thing with other sites about the same topics, rather than with other sites on the Stack network, because each site must adjust to its own topic and the community which comes with it.
 
9:20 PM
I have commented on History Beta more than once that the sig to noise ratio is not favorable, and the rampant "this is a forum comment flame wars" are a detriment to that stack's progress. The response has been split, some "we like it that way" and others 'let's keep working on this".
 
@KorvinStarmast Misspent Youth has been on my radar for some time, and it looks like a lot of fun.
 
@godskook Nvoigt has been a voice in the wilderness calling out for a while about moderation and mods being exception handlers, with some valid support. Stacks in general rely on community moderation; if you feel the community itself is over moderating, then I'd suggest raising that point in part of an answer to that question.
 
do check out the existing questions. if you're touching on comments, also see .
 
@KorvinStarmast, I can't distinguish between "community" moderation vs. "moderator" moderation, so.....
 
@godskook yeah, that's a bit labor intensive, and I only began to catch on to it by watching closed questions to see the "why" and we seem to have a stack wide process hole: if there are 3 close reasons, we dont' get to see all three.
That got brought up at C.SE or here within the past week or so. Frustrating to someone trying to get a question reopened or revised into good shape.
@godskook Ah, it was asked here
 
9:31 PM
It's an age-old issue:
243
Q: Distinguish close votes by reason

Mark ElliotEven though a question may be closed by receiving 5 close votes, the votes do not necessarily need to agree. I think this is a good behavior, but recently I voted to close a question for being an exact duplicate (which it was) and found the question was closed as "not a real question". This is ...

(That's not even the oldest, just the one chosen as representative.)
 
Is it as simple as adding a comment line for close votes like we do for dupes? It makes the process more visible to the... Querent
 
@BESW what a shame we no longer can ask game rec questions. (Oh, wait, there be dragons!)
 
@NautArch Semi-related: if your tiny hut question gets closed as a dupe of a 3.5 question, I'm going to slap something with a dead fish.
 
@KorvinStarmast You keep poking that dragon and then saying you aren't poking it. That's a good way to get your poking-stick eaten.
 
@Adam haha, I've been watching that.
 
9:39 PM
I've been watching the close votes steadily go up, and I'm like "guys...this is like closing a pathfinder question as a dupe of a 5e question. They're different games"
 
@BESW Mostly I think the reason it's not explained in depth is because the close reasons aren't for us, they're for the asker, who is often new and doesn't really know what it means. A new person would probably rather see "closed by five people, here's the main reason" than "closed by these two people for this reason, and these other two for this reason, and this guy for this reason"
sometimes in close votes there's that one vote for a reason that doesn't really make much sense. the asker shouldn't have to worry about that.
 
@doppelgreener I agree, but I'm not sure the binary choice is inherent in the asking.
 
sometimes the question will be unclear (2 votes roll in) and then it'll get revised and just be primarily opinion based (3 votes roll in). person asks why they're getting closed for being unclear when they cleared that up.
 
For example, this addition to the announcement would preserve the simple presentation for new users but would make the extra information available to those who are interested.
 
0
Q: Confused Old Guy

Anthony FornitoStarters I am not that old 38. I remember playing DND when I was a kid, almost 20 years ago, but to my knowledge have not heard of or know how it is played today. Being that there is a stackexchange for concept it must have a good following, but where? Is it still played on paper, is it online...

 
9:44 PM
@KorvinStarmast link by eimyr, but these are words of @Magician. I'd say making comments that take a huge dump on someone's work without giving a reason or an argument is a much more valid reason for urination. Be Nice.
 
@BESW i kinda like that, though i'm also wondering what effect that would have. "hey why'd you close for {reason}, ThatGuy1990?" is a distraction from revising the question.
 
Also agreed. I'm not sure it's an option that should be implemented, but it's an example of how there's more than just yes/no answers to the issue.
 
@eimyr I was pretty sure it wasn't you who wrote that; I did leave a short comment under the blog post, but I doubt it will ever see the light of day. The blogosphere reinforces Sturgeon's law each day. He did make a good point later in the rant about D&D developing like requirements creep code building. Yeah, true.
 
@BESW Yeah you're right about that.
 
@eimyr FWIW, Rob Kuntz will (hopefully soon) publish his side of the story on this game he was involved with when it was new. His thesis is that ARneson established a new way of thinking about and conceptualizing games, the initial teaser of which I've read.
 
9:49 PM
@doppelgreener On one hand, I agree that the question deserves a spot on the main site. On the other hand, I think it's going to be torn apart with close votes.
 
Kuntz is working on an analytical framework to compare games (like chess, poker, monopoly) and the free form game conceptualization the arrived in the late 1960's and mid 1970's. Can't wait to see the finished product.
 
@Adam yeah.... maybe
 
@Ryan Thanks! As for the downvote... eh, whatever. There's actually a badge for upvoting somebody else on the same question when you've got a positive score or an accepted answer or something like that.
 
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