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12:03 AM
@doppelgreener did your alchemist start out blank?
12:21 AM
@trogdor only a concept, and some ideas about stuff we could give her
hey ladies and gents
@doppelgreener oh so a different concept then?
@Asteria also yes hello
@trogdor yes hello also
Hello also yes?
How dare you, my mother was a saint
12:33 AM
@doppelgreener oh wait I read that completely wrong XD
@Asteria oh dear me now I look like a complete hello also yes
hey there @Asteria, how're things going?
hey hey @Shalvenay
Slowly slowly, plotting along at work. you?
@trogdor ideas like stunts :)
I had several stunt ideas for alchemy but never needed them
(which is perfect)
alright here, although things are quite slow. kind of wishing my campaign ideas weren't so annoyingly hard to wrap my head around completely, for that matter...
@doppelgreener yeah I feel like I still have a lot of work to do on that front
I get carried away at character creation
12:43 AM
Idea: Muscle Wizard subclass. Can substitue Intelligence for Strength in all spell related rolls, including Arcana checks. Can only takes spells from a dedicated "Musclewizard" spell list.
I need this idea and that idea, and of course the thing has to happen because that this and the other thing go so well together
Fist as a cantrip dealing 1d6 damage at touch range, and increases by 1d6 damage for each additional spell slot.
@ATaco That was a thing back in 3.5.
By god you're right.
Charge: Deal an additional 1 damage per 5 feet moved during this turn.
I could have a lot of fun homebrewing a muscle wizard for 5e.
@Shalvenay big campaign dreams happening?
12:49 AM
Aggressive Stealth: For the next 5 minutes, all stealth checks can be replaced with your intimidation score.
Additional 5 minutes per extra spell slot.
@Asteria yeah, if I can figure out what zoom level to deal with some of the issues one of the subplots raises at -- it's a balance between "having it all done for the party" and "throwing them in the deep end of legal-beagling, trying to make sense of a decree full o' gibberish"
Being exceptionally low on Intelligence, you won't actually get to slot many spells, so it's important to chose your feats of might carefully.
@trogdor for me I put those all to the side in a list of things I could grab, and decided to see how little I could actually need. It was pretty refreshing!
@Shalvenay throw them in and let them drown! cough uh, I mean, teach them to swim?
@ATaco Beware of creating characters who can do everything with a single ability score.
12:52 AM
Note that Intimidation is infact Charisma, Replacing one score doesn't seem so bad. But I've not GM'd very long, nor done much Homebrewing.
@Miniman That's the one thing I liked about DFRPG!
A true Muscle Wizard should be STR, CON and CHA, leaving DEX, INT and WIS in the dust.
@Asteria hahaha. part of the issue with throwing them in the deep end is that it could easily bore the party to death, having to deal with motion practice, process, and statutory interpretation vs. anything that came up in Ace Attorney or DanganRonpa
@ATaco Very good point - the only time I've used Intimidation lately is in WFRP, so I forgot about that.
Your most basic application of the magic skills was to replace any ordinary skill with a narrative shift in time/power/cost.
12:53 AM
@Shalvenay obligatory DanganRonpa HYYYPE. ahem Yeah I get you, it's a tricky thing to balance
Having a low INT also means that things that are normally given to a Wizard, like Bonus spell damage with INT and more spell slots, aren't given to the Muscle Wizard, which means they have to pick carefully at a long rest.
@Asteria yeah, you could almost liken what I'm going for to "legal debugging" if you will.
@BESW It sounds like that's balanced in other ways, though.
@Asteria the characters in DanganRonpa or Ace Attorney never had to ask themselves "What do we do when Congress writes gibberish?"
Mostly in terms of "you don't want mundanes to see you do it" and "if you do something too big it may explode."
12:56 AM
@Shalvenay well clearly you stabbu them in a puddle of pink goo
@BESW Ah, narrative balance. That thing D&D ostensibly uses.
@Miniman Yeah... also, the whole point of the game is "you're a wizard!" so there's not a lot of need to balance your wizardry against what non-wizards can do?
@Shalvenay When I have trouble balancing gibberish and hand-holding, I tend to bounce a "diet" version of someone that isn't playing in the group. I don't know if thats applicable to your situation or not
@Asteria part of me actually wants to listen to the oral arguments in the Cyan case, because that's the question SCOTUS is up against in that case at the moment....
@Asteria part of it is I'm not sure what to look for in a group as part of the tailoring process, if you will
@BESW Huh - I'd gotten the impression that wizard characters weren't the norm in DFRPG.
My experience with it is strictly secondhand, though.
12:58 AM
I want to know why Technomancy is a path for Wizards in 5e.
@Miniman Not strictly wizards, but folks who can wield some kind of supernatural power.
Like, it sounds awesome to be able to cast firebolt through the internet, but it's a little had to find the internet in most 5e settings.
@ATaco ...it's not?
Unearthed Arcana.
@ATaco Ah, right. I remember most of the stuff from UA, but that article had (thankfully) erased itself from my memory.
1:01 AM
@Shalvenay ah. I get you. lame.
For their last trait, they can cast spells through the internet
@Asteria it's not territory that most folks cover in a story because it's almost arena-story-esque in a way most courtroom dramas aren't -- the party's basically in tgere with a pair of tweezers trying to pull out what might as well be a grain of sand blocking up a bunch of the workings
> Them: "Yes, D&D *is* a viable alternative to Shadowrun!"
> Me: "There's a bruise on my forehead that wasn't there before."
The spiny-flanked chameleon is an endangered species from Tanzania.
Playing #FateCore by @EvilHatOfficial on @roll20app? Check out this album of assets you can use to make a great looking play area for your games: https://imgur.com/a/44MoW #roll20 #FAE
Struck by the idea of mapping 5 room dungeons with Diaspora style interstellar maps.
@Shalvenay I've been arguing most of my adult life that the courts should construe the unholy trifecta of tax code, appropriations bills, and debt ceiling as the gibberish that they add up to and then hold Congress in contempt of Congress.
1:09 AM
@nitsua60 LOL!
I mean, I know I'm a simple sheep, but if you write a law that says how much money you get, and write a law that says how much you spend, and write a law that says how much debt you can have, and they all don't add up...
you fail my math class =)
@doppelgreener I definitely need to force myself to do that
@ATaco I do something like this without any magic XD
1:25 AM
@nitsua60 (Do you know Dirk Niblick of the Math Brigade? He's a hero, and what a guy!)
@BESW did I mention I love lizards? :P
It may have come up once.
(I know full well I did, Bhahahahaha!)
@nitsua60 I do rather often feel like our system of checks and balances are not adding up anywhere near how they are supposed to
When I read about it in class I thought it sounded fantastic, now I realize it is easily subverted because humans run it
That is why we need more dragons, fey, and unicorns in office
@trogdor Dragon-designed tax system: All the money ends up under the dragon.
Fey-designed tax system: All the money vanishes the next day.
Unicorn-designed tax system: Only the pure of heart get to keep their money, which instantly leads to total economic collapse.
See? Progress already
All of those sound fine to me
The first one is best but I can't have everything
Unless I can
1:37 AM
Dungeon-master designed tax system: When you sign up for a SSN, you roll 1d100, that's your Tax Percentage.
> Feygeld. You can succeed with style at any Resources roll, provided you place the consequence Imminent economic collapse on the community in which you make the roll.
Gynosphynx designed tax system: You may have money, assuming you can answer these riddles.
Trogdor-designed tax system: taxation without burnination.
Androsphynx designed tax system: You may have money, provided you are stronger than 12 Giants.
@BESW fantastic news, most people already have this tax system, bad news some people might not have this tax system
1:42 AM
Beholder designed Tax System: No other governmental body may receive tax payments because only the taxation office is a perfect government body.
Owlbear-designed tax system: limbs are the only acceptable payment.
Aboleth Tax System: Give us all your money, disregard the other taxation office.
Anyway, obviously in this new system dragons would be presidents, fey would be Congress, and unicorns would be judges
This is a wonderful and absolutely horrrrible idea
"YOU ARE NOT PURE OF HEART, DEATH PENALTY" "God damnit Unicorn Judge, this is petty theft!"
@ATaco prrrooobably just life imprisonment for everyone but 4 people but yes XD
1:46 AM
@ATaco uh, isn't that our tax system now? :P
Good news is, if you are one of those 4 people you are set
Sphynxes also have the ability to transport people between places, even planes and times. So they'd make for a great public transport system.
Assuming you are willing to answer riddles just to catch the metro.
Also the president will always be sent to jail upon swearing in, which will be weird
1:49 AM
But congress will be deadlocked for eternity which won't change that much
@ATaco "What goes on four feet in the morning..." - "MY WIFE IS IN LABOR!" - "Wrong answer."
@BESW all I see there is justice
Unicorn: "You lied through your knife-like teeth during that oath, A THOUSAND YEARS DUNGEON NO TRIAL!" Dragon: Fire breath
Atleast the Gynosphynx metro only offers riddles. The Androsphynx metro demands context appropriate battles. "TO GO TO WASHINGTON, YOU MUST SLAY 9 RATS!"
"You have FAILED to slay nine rats! Your punishment? TO THE NINE HELLS WITH YOU!"
So essentially like our current Metro.
2 hours later…
3:37 AM
@ATaco you mean ismetroonfire.com?
Not to be confused with ismetrononfire.
4:15 AM
Stunning LiDAR (Light Detection and Ranging) images of the hidden lava caves currently running under #Auckland http://www.noted.co.nz/currently/science/an-incredible-perspective-of-aucklands-underground-lava-caves/ via @vomlespringford @NotedNZ
4:28 AM
...apparently the Upside Down is also Down Under.
4:39 AM
Lol, the upsidedown would absolutely hate lava
5:04 AM
> Drive it like it's stolen. You get +2 on Drive actions when scrupulously obeying all traffic rules, laws, and posted instructions.
"Gasp! But it's not stolen like, at all!?!?!"
> There are no red lights in a car chase. When rolling Drive, you get +1 for each traffic rule, law, or posted instruction your action blatently violates.
Yep seems legit
hey again @Asteria
@BESW Was the quote deliberate?
5:13 AM
Definitely one of the best animated movies in recent times.
hey there @Ben
So, currently out of town (obviously with internet access so @Miniman @daze413 I should still be good for the game!) and all I have to keep me company after hours is building my diablo game
Has anyone got any Diablo 1 experience?
hey @Shalv
@Ben how're things going?
Not sure I'd go that far in a timeframe which also included things like Avril et le Monde Truqué, and Kubo and the Two Strings, but it's definitely a very fun film.
5:25 AM
@Shalvenay Good. Out of town so escaping from home life for a bit
@Ben A modicum.
@Ben shopping for srs-bsns hot melt adhesives
@Miniman So if I dropped words like "Blood clan" and "The Butcher" you'd know what I'm on about?
@Ben Yep!
Although technically I wouldn't need D1 experience to do that :P
@Miniman Fair enough. I might then enlist your help (if you wish) to try and create some stat blocks etc for my Dungeon :D
5:28 AM
@Ben I'd be happy to help with that!
Awesome :D
So basic Blood Clan I'd say are a pretty straightforward mook, but I'd definitely be adding a leap attack, since I see that as their signature move.
@Miniman Honestly, have you eveer played Numenera?
Blood Clan Shamans...hmmm.
@Ben Nope! Sorry, I just assumed your dungeon was for D&D 5e.
Yeah it is haha
5:33 AM
Ah, cool. So what about Numenera?
@BESW @Miniman oh what is it a qoute from?
@trogdor Big Hero 6.
@trogdor Big Hero 6.
But in Numenera they have an enemy called "Maegr". Basically mutant Goatmen. And more importantly, Numenera had a "mob" rule that I really liked. Basically, it would create one single entity, one "challenge" higher than a single enemy. Less rolls, but harder to pass
@trogdor I'd recommend you watch it, but I'm pretty sure BESW will take care of that.
5:36 AM
Fair enough, I know of it and have heard a lot of people praise it, but I have never seen it myself
I don't think I'd use the rule for the Blood clan, but maybe for smaller enemies that can be made into "swarms"
Keeping in mind, I also never saw zootopia till I was on a plane that had it as an option and said"what the heck let's check this one out"
@Ben For Fallen, at least.
@trogdor I haven't seen that (yet).
Zootopia is great
@Miniman it's pretty good
5:39 AM
@Miniman Maybe. I kinda wanna give them a "free" disengage... cos they were always so annoying in the original... they'd always run away after one hit haha
@Ben Oh wow I just realised, that rule is actually so perfect for Fallen. Because that way, you don't have to track them being resurrected, you just give the mob creature regenerating hp.
I liked it, though to be fair maybe not everyone likes anthropomorphic animals as some kind of analogy for social problems? But I liked it
@Ben I'd save that for D2 Act 3 pygmies, but they're not going to be in there :(
@Miniman It has some very amusing Frozen references. If you're at all familiar with it (from cultural osmosis) you'll get most of them, but there's some that my daughter had to explain because I hadn't seen it.
@Miniman Oh yah the pygmies! Haha. Little buggers!
5:42 AM
@Adeptus I don't think I noticed any of that , and I saw Frozen
@Ben And then undead dolls in Durance...ugh, kill me now.
I would venture to guess though,... I was not Frozens target audience
Also kind of amusing - in that same week we watched Zootopia, Moana, and Rogue One. Alan Tudyk did voices for all three...
5:44 AM
Yup. He's also in Frozen
He's in Big Hero 6, too!
@trogdor This is the most obvious one
The Duke of Wessleton (Duke Weaselton - that's the only Frozen reference I got)
@Miniman Oh?
@Ben I can't remember the name of the character, but it's the rich dude who owns the company.
@Miniman Like, the son that's obsessed with monsters or the CEO dude?
5:46 AM
@Ben The CEO dude.
@Miniman We worked out he'd voiced a robot (in Rogue One and I Robot), a chicken (in Moana), and also been on Robot Chicken...
Ohh fair enough
@Adeptus I'm seeing a pattern here
@Adeptus look,... I was on a plane flight and having a horrible time based on everything except the movie,... I was not in a position to catch that one XD
That being said, watching it did do a tremendous job of making me forget how much I hate plane flights, so big endorsement there
I think I actually watched it twice in a row the first time I watched it.
I do not do that.
Like, ever.
I don't even know if I would have done that, I had not-enough-time to watch it again by the time i finished it
5:51 AM
@trogdor If you did have the time, would you?
Yeah autocorrect mhmmm I did mean to say u when I tried to say I,... Your killing it
@Ben see right now I would say yes
I dunno why I did, honestly, I don't consider it my favourite movie. But it was just such a fun movie that I felt it needed a round 2 :)
My point was that I don't know if maybe I would have found another movie to watch
I had gone from Shin Godzilla to zootopia
Run Fatboy, Run
@Ben that was not an option
5:54 AM
I mean, they can only get so many movies
And it was a Japanese airline that I used that whole trip
Anything with Jackie Chan then haha
I have no idea if they would have considered that a good choice
Yes good is equal to food yep yessir
...Jackie Chan is from Hong Kong.
5:58 AM
Also,... I thought I saw that movie but now I am not sure
I feel like I would have remembered any movie with Simon Peg in it if I had seen it
@trogdor Run Fatboy Run? Simon Pegg, deadbeat dad that decides to compete in a Marathon to try and impress his ex, but ends up changing his behaviour for the better
@BESW I,.... Did not think he meant it that way,.....
@BESW Yes. This is true. Didn't think of that
But it only means that more than likely, Shanghai Noon or Rush Hour wouldn't be on the playlist either :)
6:03 AM
I had just thought that you meant you would take any movie with him in it and had not thought,.... Of that
Well, yeah. I enjoy pretty much any movie with JC in it. His skill is always impressive, and as a fan of comedy, (most) of his movies always have a level of humour to them as well.
But in this situation, the suggestion was purely a suggestion for "another movie to watch" on the playlist you had (even though you didn't have the time - but anyway). BESW pointed out something that made me realise that on a Japanese airline, an actor from Hong King would not likely be on the same playlist as Godzilla
So, I think in this situation, everybody was right :P
@Miniman So I've planned out the 1st level, I just need to create a list of encounters for the dungeon (the two I used were pretty hap-hazard and half-planned). The second level is what I'm working on now.
@Ben So Butcher's going to be there, right?
@Miniman I think so. Pretty sure off the top of my head
I do have a list lol
6:27 AM
I also want to build a "corruption" and a "fear" system. I have some preliminaries in place, and I was discussing how the corruption would affect the PCs with @Nyoze a little while back
So @Miniman, when are you available? I'll be available every afternoon from around 6pm to 10pm
(Your time)
@Ben fair enough
@Ben That's...pretty much exactly the period where I'm least available.
@Miniman Bugger
7:03 AM
@Ben His early stuff with Maggie Cheung and Anita Mui are great.
And I really want to see Railroad Tigers.
I'm honestly not too knowledgeable on his film history - I was a 90's kid (born in 89) so the only delving I've done is Drunken master and Police Story
Police Story is Maggie Cheung; Drunken Master is Anita Mui.
But do delve! Twin Dragons (also Maggie Cheung) is great too: Jackie plays twins separated at birth; one of them becomes a street racer and martial artist while the other is a concert pianist.
The Armour of God series is super weird but totally worth it; it's basically Hong Kong kung fu does Indiana Jones.
I'm a big fan of Miracles (Anita Mui gets to sing!).
Really, I'm not sure I've ever seen a Hong Kong-era Jackie Chan film that wasn't worth watching. Even the most boring ones still have Jackie Chan in 'em.
And if you've got Mui or Cheung too, well. Any one of them can carry a movie in their back pocket.
His Hollywood stuff mostly doesn't have the same spark, sadly.
8:03 AM
A thread on the Babylonian & Assyrian epic of creation, the Enuma Elish: How the world began, how ancient people imagined their gods, & how stories were used to build national identities.
I'd be fascinated to see a deep dive into ancient cultures' sense of narrative time.
Meanwhile, our players are discussing how the clockmakers of the land all take a level in abjuration magic, so as to ward off the distorting effects of haste and of flying really high.
@BESW Hey wait a minute, why are we talking about my favorite movies
Ooh ... Law is Patriarchy, Chaos is Feminism:
Some scholars (incl. Robert Graves) argue that the epic represents the ascendancy of newer masculine gods over the primeval feminine fertility gods worshipped in earlier times. The epic depicts the establishment of patriarchal society, figured as order triumphing over chaos.
So all those Chaotic Good/Neutral/Evil edgelords are ... feminists?
8:20 AM
@Erics Nah, it's more analogous to patriarchy vs matriarchy, not patriarchy vs feminism
8:47 AM
To the extent that any of those modern concepts are helpful lenses for quickly understanding a foreign epistemology--what Mike said.
I mean,... that sounds like straight up propaganda from a new regime/religious rule
@trogdor ha, good point
these old gods were worse than our new ones
I mean, heck you don't even need em to be male gods overthrowing female ones to imagine that exercise happening (though it adds a whole other layer for sure)
@trogdor Oh, then may I interest you in our lord and savior Yog-Sothoth?
@MikeQ no
I already worship Cuthulu
I have a side thing with Dagon, but don't tell either of them about that
(I just picked two other Mythos gods, I dunno if they dislike each other or anything)
9:01 AM
@trogdor Both Cthulhu and Dagon are GOOs, so they're... sorta on the same side?
fair enough
but you know, even within a pantheon,... sometimes disagreements happen
and Mythos gods, sheesh they must be pretty good at holding grudges
I assume
Or, really bad, maybe?
One of the big concepts is just how foreign their ways of thinking are supposed to be, compared to human cognition and morality
that could certainly be a thing, seeing as we can't possibly fully understand them
@MikeQ yeah yeah
I understand what you mean
9:06 AM
My boy Yog-Sothoth, on the other tentacle, is an outer god, which is different from the GOO. Outer gods are sort of semi-real, semi-conceptual
Speaking of cosmic horror, does anyone around here have experience crafting tabletop campaigns in either Call of Cthulhu or 40k?
@MikeQ so,... are they supposed to be somehow at odds with the GOO?
or are they simply less concerned with Earth in specific?
@MikeQ I've got a decent amount of experience running Mythos-style campaigns, but almost never in the Mythos setting itself and never with either of those systems.
@trogdor You're asking the wrong cultist
@BESW Then what do you mean by "Mythos-style"?
Exploring the themes of cosmic fear using the styles and practices pioneered by Lovecraft, but without the specific trappings of elder gods, shoggoths, fungi from Yuggoth, and so forth--or the many prejudices he labored under.
For example, a lot of my Cthulhu Dark plots are just "Take a classic earth-bound Doctor Who story and put ordinary humans in place of the Doctor so they don't know what's going on and don't have the proper tools to deal with it."
I draw on the advice of Nightmares of Mine and Lovecraftesque a lot.
Yeah that's probably the best way to deal with it. Even if you're running a story that fits the "canonical" mythos, you don't want the players to apply any sort of meta-knowledge.
9:19 AM
@MikeQ fair enough
@MikeQ It defeats the whole point, anyway--like everyone quoting along with a Monty Python skit when the humor lies in its surprise, the Mythos has become too familiar to evoke real Dread (in the Nightmares sense).
I assume they are actually even harder to understand in the way we understand things
@BESW also, you don't need a thing to be completely impossible to understand to be afraid of it
in fact, you need to understand at least a little about it, like at least that what it wants is bad for you
you don't really neeeed more than that, but just saying it is unknowable makes people bored
I have read a small amount of Lovecraft's actual work and like,... he was boring about it
Yeah, Cthulhu Dark really helped to teach me that dread isn't about knowing impossible things; it's about your imagination filling in the dark spaces where you know you don't know something.
he wrote a thing about Dagon, and the underwater stuff would make me scared,... except he was yawn worthy with it
@trogdor Much like GRR Martin, the fanbase around Lovecraft is about the world he builds rather than his writing style.
9:24 AM
My best horror games have finished with the players still having big unanswered questions about what was really going on, even if they came out of it with a definitive success.
it was essentially about a guy who got shipwrecked, he was alone out at sea and afraid he would die of starvation or thirst, and out pops a thing worshipping Dagon, very breifely I might add, and that was it
@BESW Then you did it right! It shouldn't just be a generic whodunnit mystery, where it just so happens that the bad guy had tentacles on his face.
so for me, HP was useful as a jumping off point, but in execution he didn't seem to be a great story teller
@MikeQ Ironic, then, that so much of the actual worldbuilding was done by Derleth and others after Lovecraft's death.
@trogdor As a fan of the guy's writings, I'll admit - It sometimes makes sense to compare HPL to a timid puppy who growls at various household objects, because he doesnt know what it is, and even if there's nothing scary about it, he thinks it could be threatening
9:26 AM
@BESW I am not surprised, cause that book was apparently a small collection of some of HP's shorter stories, and he did not impress me
@MikeQ Well, mostly the puppy was growling at miscegenation.
@MikeQ yeah that is incredibly similar to what this story (the only one I remember in any detail realy) impacted me
I think one of his problems was that he was more easily scared by his ideas than any number of other people
I, for one, am happy to be part of rapidly ushering the genre of cosmic fear out of the shadow of its bigoted originators.
and yeah, the idea of that Mythos stuff is existentially scary on some level,.. but you need more than just the concept to hold people's attention and keep them scared
@BESW yes, this is fantastic too
(cf Lovecraftesque.)
@MikeQ If you're interested in designing horror campaigns, I can't recommend Nightmares of Mine highly enough.
It's not just a Mythos guide, it breaks down the whole multifaceted horror milieu and analyzes how its various parts work in RPGs vs in film or novels or whatever, and how to fit them back together to create different kinds of horror.
9:32 AM
@BESW So I've been throwing ideas around not for a horror campaign, but for a romanticized wild west action campaign that has weird eldritch horror elements to it.
ooh. Yeah, still gonna suggest Nightmares.
It'd be a great boon in figuring out exactly what and how much you want in your game.
Most Call of Cthulhu editions have some good pages of advice too.
Lovecraftesque is more focused on using structure and theme to recreate Lovecraft's original story formula (but with a lot less bigotry and hopefully less boring).
Right, and I don't find that very interesting, both as a GM and as a player.
I'd be very careful about anything that starts out with "romanticized wild west" in its bones, though, because that can very quickly get more ethically dicey than anyone intended.
Dogs in the Vineyard turned First Tribes into noble savages, for example.
The whole "Which monster will be fighting against today? Let's spin the WHEEL OF MYTHOS to find out!" model is too overused when people construct eldritch horror campaigns
Yeah, Lovecraftesque is explicitly NOT set in the Mythos, and part of the play experience is that nobody, not even the GM, knows what the eerie element is until it's played out.
(There's only one player character, and everybody takes turns running the PC, being the GM, and playing NPCs and adding tone details--rotating roles each scene.)
9:40 AM
Well, see, my idea was to have the upbeat and heroic wild west "attitude" be prominent for the most part. Then when the weird eldritch horror comes up, it should seem especially out-of-place. Because that's the point.
Horror is more surprising and disorienting when you don't have the obvious foreshadowing everywhere.
So how are you going to deal with the fact that, to modern sensibilities, the very foundation of the wild West concept--violent expansion into territory occupied by demonized and dehumanized indigenous peoples--is rather horrific?
Well, yeah, as you said, that's toeing a strange line. Which is why I had originally considered using 40k, and framing it as a mining settlement on an alien desert world. But I don't know if that's better or worse.
Personally, when I think about telling a wild west story, I'm usually more focused on the microcosm of a single town, like in a western movie.
I shy away from the genre as a whole, because I've yet to see any way to responsibly return to the pretty lie that its original novel-and-film progenitors peddled and I'm not really interested in recreating the responses that come out of confronting the lie.
Ah. I see. Well, I think that if I was writing a story and was struggling with "How do I make this not racially insensitive" then perhaps I'm dealing with the wrong story.
Kinda like the romantic speakeasy Prohibition stories that ignore all the mob hits, people who died from bad alcohol, and sexual abuse which came with sending an entire consumable industry underground to be unregulated and run by gangsters.
9:51 AM
Yes. I was hoping to stick to the easier-to-digest tropes: horsebacked gunslingers, saloon brawls, unregulated alcohol, quick draw duels in the street, buried treasure, some sort of action sequence on a moving locomotive.
It's like... yeah, I can see how it'd be nice to have such a light and fluffy romantic story, but I don't want to contribute to erasing the real victims, and I don't know how to balance it.
Well it's not like I'd be publishing this campaign story as historical fact. Especially if I throw weird eldritch horror stuff in there.
Obviously not. But stories have weight and power.
Surely you have to draw the line somewhere. How else do you tell a fictitious story in a historical setting?
It's like--you may never have seen a film that claims to be historically accurate, but you probably think newspapers from the 1850s to the 1930s had big, bold headlines on the first page. They didn't, they were covered with tiny-text advertisements. Prop departments make newspapers with big headlines because that tells the story better, and audiences accept it uncritically.
It's a matter of making choices, and making those choices deliberately. And don't call me Shirley.
9:57 AM
I did not actually think that, but solely because I've seen historical newspapers.
But I see what you mean. So if there's really no way to ignore the historical truth, what if I tried to recreate the Hollywood version of wild west by placing it on an uninhabited desert planet?
Well, as you said, this is being made for the personal use of you and your friends.
...So you object to that idea?
I didn't say that at all.
I ask because if you have an objection, then it's very likely that other people would have similar objections, putting me in a position where I've inadvertently pushed or reinforced some idea that's insensitive or otherwise harmful
It needs to work for your group. I can't say if something will or won't.
I'm guessing that my group would be more comfortable with explicitly saying "We're going to ignore all that nasty stuff and play in a sanitized film version of the Wild West" than trying to figure out how to transplant the Wild West to another setting in order to preserve an innocence it never had to begin with.
We do best when we're straightforward about what we're doing and why.
...but, well. The last time I played a Wild West style game with anybody, we wound up with a town that had a Chinese blacksmith, and a synagogue instead of a church.
I don't think my group would be able to stick to the film version of the Wild West even if we wanted to.
10:09 AM
@BESW I'm kicking myself a bit (gently!!) that I forgot about this entirely and didn't mention to the author how well some Doctor Who stories, sans Doctor, can work for Cthulhu Dark :)
(The rabbi went on a spiritual journey across the Sephirot to gain divine power he could wield against the vampire who was living in the town's silver mine.)
@doppelgreener Aw. Maybe you'll see him again! ...or you could contact him on social media.
@BESW :O I could!!
I will see if I can do just that!
@doppelgreener For reference, I've had most success with "The Abominable Snowmen" and "Horror of Fang Rock."
@MikeQ You can ignore the historical truth, to whatever extent your group is comfortable with. But make it a conscious, deliberate choice or it'll get away from you fast.
@BESW The Snowmen was the one with the monastery, right? Which one was the one with the lighthouse we played? (Was that Horror of Fang Rock?)
Right on both counts.
10:19 AM
1 hour later…
11:20 AM
@BESW @trogdor btw, I picked up Blades in the Dark this weekend. (cc @JuneShores)
@doppelgreener ah
@BESW I don't know if that kind of approach can even exist
because certain aspects of the Wild West we know in tropes and film and such would clash if you tried to be 2017/18 responsible about them
@BESW yeah despite not liking alchohol myself,... I don't think a Prohibition on it was at all the right way to go
course, I have 20/20 hindsight
@trogdor "This is a great idea!!" -- most people having a terrible idea
well, yeah most people who have a terrible idea and then implement it
maybe not most people who have terrible ideas
because I have plenty that I catch first that never get done
and of course some that happen anyway because I didn't
I can only imagine that is similar for many people
I don't exactly agree with the way we illegalize certain substances now either, but I don't know exactly how to fix the way our drug laws and enforcement work
even the hard drugs that I do think should be illegal,.... maybe we could be doing something a little better to help people who get stuck addicted to them?
@trogdor a lot of countries have found that legalizing LSD and marijuana works pretty well, since they're pretty much harmless and in no way a gateway drug.
11:30 AM
Specifically, legalizing and regulating them, making them part of the region's above-board economics.
@doppelgreener yes, some drugs I don't agree with being illegal, I have no personal idea about LSD though I have been told it is relatively harmless at least compared to a lot of worse drugs
but I know for a fact that Marijuana does not mess people up to nearly the degree a lot of people seem to think it does
@BESW yeah don't just legalize something without putting regulatory laws in place, I did not mean that at all XD
@doppelgreener also, I did always wonder how someone could make the logical leap that a less harmful drug could lead to a more harmful one, but not make literally every drug ever illegal
and not literally every drug ever is illegal, just certain ones that people don't like because of some kind of stigma
@BESW I just wonder man, like I know there is no way of arguing them down on it
it's just a reaaaaaaaaly weird thought process that still effects our country today
and I know it also won't change anything, but as someone who stays away from alchohol for many reasons (cheif among them the problems some people have when they get addicted to it and such like that) I am perplexed how it can be considered as ok as it is while some less destructive drugs, most namely Marijuana, can be,...... seen as some horrible demon weed
I understand that part of that stems simply from me not being part of the Alchohol Culture though
I am outside that bubble so I just don't get it
(and I understand there are plenty of people who consume Alchohol and don't have huge life altering problems from it, I just mean the literally cultural way many people consume it, and often don't even notice how it has become a "cultural" thing on some level during social activities of some kinds)
my family is still to some extent confused that I continue to not consume any real amounts of the stuff
they accept it, but they still offer it to me on occasion like I am going to just turn around on that because,.... why wouldn't I or something? I don't even know
I have tried some on occasion just to see what different drinks taste like, but I don't ever turn out to like it (and even if I did, my curiosity would be done on that occasion anyway)
11:51 AM
@trogdor I've heard rumors that the whole war on drugs was motivated by a desire to suppress activists in the 60s and onwards -- it was often groups like hippies, and since they commonly used recreational drugs like these, making those drugs illegal meant law enforcement could target them. Naturally propaganda had to follow to excuse the drugs being outlawed.
that would go to a great way to explain it
> Washington (CNN) -- One of Richard Nixon's top advisers and a key figure in the Watergate scandal said the war on drugs was created as a political tool to fight blacks and hippies, according to a 22-year-old interview recently published in Harper's Magazine.

"The Nixon campaign in 1968, and the Nixon White House after that, had two enemies: the antiwar left and black people," former Nixon domestic policy chief John Ehrlichman told Harper's writer Dan Baum for the April cover story published Tuesday.
(This kind of tactic could be a useful plot tool in an RPG story.)
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