TRPG General Chat - 2016-07-01

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Joshua Aslan Smith

12:02 AM

@waxeagle I assume no game tonight?

12:44 AM

@keithcurtis We're delighted to have delighted you! But I notice that you're part of the team, too, having reviewed, flagged, revised, and so forth. So thank you too.

1:39 AM

@keithcurtis When you referred to "this stack", did you mean to exclude other stacks, or not to make any comment on them?

(my experience has been uniformly pretty good, but I've also been lurking for quite some time before joining. It seems to help to already be familiar with the mores)

@JoelHarmon That definitely does help, I did the same thing.

I used to not be here so often, and I would also not say much if not addressed, so there may be something to that

2:45 AM

@JoelHarmon this stack in particular, but only because this is the one I spend most of my time on. I was comparing it to other places for rpg interaction and info.

fair enough

@BESW :) yeah, I liked the experience so much I wanted to be a part of it.

most of my stack experience has been good, but my path was "SO and Pogrammers seem pretty cool. Let me take a look. Oh, they have RPG and Worldbuilding. What's that big sucking sound I'm suddenly hearing?"

Aye, this is the only RPG place online (with the increasing exception of Google+'s Fate sections) that I engage with as a community member.

@keithcurtis ditto =)

question about systems: anyone familiar with *world about?

2:56 AM

@nitsua60 I'm a dungeonworld fan

I ran two sessions of Monster of the Week.

I've run maybe six sessions and played in two

So I've got a player (5e) who is constantly trying to do lots. For instance...

(and for comparison, I have some experience with d&d 4 and 5, and cut my teeth on 3.5; I've also played games like Fate and Paranoia)

"I want to dash all the way up, attack, run away, hide, and get advantage o nthe attack--can I move in feinting so that I'll get advantage?" "You might provoke an opportunity attack when you move out..." "Oh, then maybe I'll... [strings together five more actions]"

2:59 AM

to clarify, you've got a player from 5e who is trying to do all this in DW?

I'm not familiar with the other *world games, and I don't think you've specified which one you are using

Sorry, no: a player in 5e who wants to do all this in 5e. So, obviously, I have to say 'no' to him a lot. Which I hate doing. ("Find your way to 'yes' is a dictum of mine.)

@JoelHarmon I think he's playing 5e now and is going to ask if *world will be better for this player.

Exactly.

@nitsua60 Ah, so he's trying to use one action in one turn to do something narratively that D&D prefers to separate into multiple actions across multiple turns.

Would one of the *World's make a better system fit?

3:01 AM

ah

@nitsua60 Yes, or any other game where mechanics don't map so strictly to narrative units.

He gets really into scenes, likes to think outside the box, and I hate quashing it so much.

well, in terms of game flow it seems like a yes; you keep the scene focused on him until some dramatic moment then refocus on someone else, instead of "oh, it's the fighter's turn again; he swings and misses. Who is next?"

in exchange, you lose things like simulationism and the ability to crunch numbers, which are both also very valid ways to have fun

So let's talk about the other players for a moment: one is a through-and-through roleplayer, and doesn't care much about mechanics (or "effectiveness"). He just likes playing a character true to its core. He doesn't really even know a lot about the 5e rules, because they don't interest him very much.

another is a pretty-crunchy one, who's got all the 5e rules under his belt, but also puts RP/character first. (He just actually pays attention to the rules while doing so, so does so in the most "effective" way of the three.) Would the various *worlds support enough complexity/gamesmanship for someone like that?

@nitsua60 Even Dungeon World puts some natural limits on long strings of actions. A typical response to that string of actions might be “Okay, so you can dash up and attack, but what happens after depends on how well that goes. Do you want to try it anyway?”

3:06 AM

@SevenSidedDie but it sounds like there's a more-fluid approach... like "you dash up and attack, and [result] so you skip away out of sight"--sound right?

@nitsua60 Sounds good. The crunchy guy may feel a loss, but otherwise it sounds pretty good.

@nitsua60 Yes to the first player, very much so. Less, but possibly still for the second player—the rules aren't crunchy, and don't tell you what actions you can do. Instead they tell you who gets to move the fictional reality forward and when.

is it just the three players, @nitsua60

?

@JoelHarmon for now. (#4 is away for the summer.)

@nitsua60 Yeah, it's very fluid. With your zeroeth player (I should have numbered teh others differently!) you'll still have to keep a strong hand on the tiller, but DW gives you firm tools (the GM moves) for managing it. It might still be a struggle though, with a lot of “Okay, so you can do (the starting stuff), but the rest will have to wait…” every time.

3:08 AM

@SevenSidedDie can you describe how the rules tell who moves the fiction forward? I've read most of DW, but don't really feel like I have my head around it.

remember that no one is allowed to say "I hack and slash the guy!"; you are required, by the rules, to describe what you're attempting

(or anyone)

@JoelHarmon all three of them will be perfectly happy with that

the DM then decides what, if any, moves are triggered

and me, for that matter =)

@nitsua60 When a player narrates an action, it either happens, or it triggers a "move."

3:10 AM

'kay

Triggers for character moves are things like "trying to manipulate someone" or "trying to attack" or "looking for trouble."

When that happens, usually the dice come out against a flat universal DC, and the result is graded on something similar to a Fate-like curve of outcomes, but with more customisation and a prompt for the player or the GM to narrate something interesting.

Yeah. So there are two major “modes” that you keep moving between: the players saying stuff, and the GM saying stuff. The default is that the GM doesn't get to talk. This switches when the players do one of two things: they look at the GM to find out what happens, or they make a move and roll a miss.

@SevenSidedDie that sounds like it suits our temperaments quite a bit better.

However, there are also triggers for GM moves--these are still triggered by player narration (mechanically, enemies don't get to take much initiative but instead respond to the players), but they don't ever involve dice and are generally much broader.

@BESW is it as simple as "players narrate successes, GM narrates failures"?

3:13 AM

I'd recommend reading the top answer to this question:

41

Q: What do you do in Dungeon World when someone wants to perform an action they don't have a move for?

So in Dungeon World, everything breaks down to 'moves'. What about situations where a move is not available, but a check of some sort is called for, such as in the case of a non-fighter who wants to kick down the door? What mechanism do you use to resolve that situation? Is there the equivalent...

@nitsua60 The thing that I like about DW is that it's very firmly rooted in the fiction, and does that by telling you to stay just talkin' about what's going on. You only touch the rules when you say something specific that “triggers” a move, either a player or GM move. Otherwise, you're all just sitting around saying “what if?” in present tense.

A trigger for a GM move is usually something like "the character does something that invites disaster" or "the player fails a roll" or "the players look to you to see what happens next," and GM moves are usually bad/dramatic/complicated: separate the party, take away their stuff, inflict damage, foreshadow something, etc.

@nitsua60 It's not that distinct a division. The division is when people get to talk, and when they do it can be success or failure, depending on what they're doing with their turn to talk. That goes for the GM or players.

And does it naturally lend itself to characters that are fantastically heroic, Errol Flynning their ways to success no matter the odds? 'Cause that's what it seems like these guys are into, and it just feels like 5e's causing friction where there need not be so much.

@JoelHarmon [reads]

@BESW But not all of them. There are a few GM moves that just add foreshadowing, or add positive opportunities. And there's no rule about how frequently to use which moves.

3:15 AM

@nitsua60 that can happen, depending on how the DM calls things

@nitsua60 Put it this way: anything worth punching is equally difficult to punch, though you may take/inflict more or less damage depending on what you're punching.

@nitsua60 You can be more generous with your GM moves, yes. Default is that the PCs get into trouble a lot, but are awesome getting out of it. It's entirely up to the GM what that trouble is, so you can tune that pretty heavily.

you could walk up to the ogre and try to stab him (hack and slash), or you might have to look for a hole in his defenses (discern reality), then duck through his swing (defy danger), then maybe try to stab him, if nothing else went wrong

@BESW And some things can't be punched (effectively, at least) at all. So don't try punching dragons.

@JoelHarmon this is really interesting and helpful

3:17 AM

Well, yes. If you try to punch a dragon, then instead of triggering your "Hack and Slash" move, you probably triggered the GM's "player did something really stupid" move.

I enjoy this DW dragon story: latorra.org/2012/05/15/a-16-hp-dragon

@BESW Yep. That's where the game avoids becoming “players get to achieve anything they can say”.

*world puts almost all the mechanical pressure on the GM.

@SevenSidedDie "players get in trouble a lot, but are awesome getting out of it" sounds pretty perfect for this group. Do the rest of you agree it's a decent characterization of DW?

it's also where the DM can show that he's a "fan of the characters". No one likes a story where the protagonist just wins at everything

3:19 AM

@nitsua60 Sounds about right based on what I played.

@JoelHarmon Yes! Being a fan does in part means putting them in situations where that character has a chance to do interesting things.

I ran a Web of Fear-inspired game of Monster of the Week, in which fighting robot yetis triggered "that was stupid" moves until the party got enchanted weapons to fight them with.

also, if you take a look again, you'll notice that the rules for players are actually very simple. Most of the rules are for the DM.

Once they had enchanted weapons, they could trigger their Kick Some Ass moves and take out the yetis.

@BESW what is Monster of the Week?

3:22 AM

Buffy-themed *world

(is my understanding)

iirc, the original was ApocalypseWorld, a post-apocalyptic game

@nitsua60 It's a *world hack for playing high-powered monster-fighting stories like, yes, Buffy. Or Supernatural.

@nitsua60 do they really want to just succeed at everything all the time? cause that seems crushingly boring to me

Anything about a small team of elite monster-fighters who get to use silver buckshot on werewolves.

@trogdor No, but they really want to do more (in-fiction) than 5e makes easy.

fair enough

3:25 AM

@JoelHarmon nice

I suppose my summary is it sounds like you already have access to a rule book, and I'd advise you to try a one-shot

@nitsua60 the game I had was the one BESW GMed, and I felt like my character fulfilled her job without being too broken, and I personally had fun with it

@nitsua60 Our constant refrain for the last DW campaign I ran was “holy cow a lot happened this session.”

and we had plenty of being competent but also failing just enough, I think

@JoelHarmon yeah, I picked it up (DW) a few months back on a lark. I'd heard enough good things....

3:26 AM

it's maybe 20 minutes to explain the rules to experienced D&D players; heck, there are only 15 numbers on a DW character sheet; six are the d&d stats, and 6 more are the d&d modifiers...

@JoelHarmon What are the last 3?

HP, armor, and experience, I think

@JoelHarmon alright if the players don't have the book? Should I just photocopy a page or two of each of their class' descriptions?

level was in there, too..

@JoelHarmon Ah, so they're all numbers a D&D player is familiar with anyway.

3:28 AM

I'd have to grab an actual char sheet to be sure

@Miniman certainly yes

Does DW have playbooks?

@nitsua60 Totally, yes. They only need a set of class sheets to pick from and a Player Moves sheet per player.

'cause in MotW, every player only needed a character sheet and a list of their moves.

@BESW (They do, just calls them Classes.)

Okay, cool.

3:28 AM

your attacks for a given class always use the class's damage dice, because a fighter with a dagger is scarier than a wizard with a greatsword

@nitsua60 in that exact version, you pick a character archetype, say the guy who likes to use guns with silver or other monster weakness type coated on them, or the mentor to the group who isn't as good at fighting but can figure out what needs to happen easier, or even the person who has weird powers of one kind or another

Like I said, *world puts most of the mechanical pressure on the GM.

@trogdor cool

@nitsua60 There's not so much "class descriptions" as "pick a character sheet corresponding to your class and in each section mark X options you want to have."

yeah, as a player it wasn't too complicated, though for me it was right on the really low end of mechanical depth that I like

3:30 AM

The character sheet is the class description.

but for your players that might mostly be a good thing, maybe

so is it the case that (basically) all the *World and "powered by" share the same mechanics/style, but the exact content is differently-flavored?

@trogdor Speaking of which, Bubblegumshoe is super complex, though more in the play than the chargen.

@nitsua60 Pretty much, yeah.

here's the level up process: pick a stat that's less than 18 and increase it (and possibly its modifier, when applicable). Pick a new move. If you're a wizard, pick a new spell. Get another beverage and go back to playing.

@nitsua60 obviously there are several variations of all of those things, but that is the gist of it player/character wise

3:31 AM

By changing the kinds of moves and what trigger them, you get a totally different experience.

@BESW complex play works just fine to replace complex char gen

@trogdor Then I will give you the book and lean on you for backup expertise during play.

@BESW so you can have real distinctiveness even within, say, the Fighter class because of the chosen moves?

@nitsua60 Absolutely.

@nitsua60 DW is a bit more mechanically different than other *World games, but it's still pretty close.

3:32 AM

what came first?

Like, in MotW, there was one "class" for "I'm a monster!" whether that's werewolf or vampire or ghost or whatever.

@nitsua60 Apocalypse World is the one that started the explosion.

You pick different features to define the sort of monster you are.

Did AW authors do DW also, or is it a third-party thing?

@nitsua60 Different authors.

3:34 AM

also note that some crunchier players may be surprised at the powers you can get; level 1 druids can wild shape into anything from their preferred terrain type, any time they want to

@nitsua60 yeah, I had the "mentor" type character, and I could have gone for like, a mix between being good at fighting, making everyone else better at fighting, being better at getting certain kinds of info, I went pretty much full info gathering and getting magic items I could give to other people because the rest of my group just wanted to bash yeti face in XD

@trogdor so, like Al from Quantum Leap?

@nitsua60 I guess,... that is actually a relatively fair comparison XD

at least in a mechanical sense

@nitsua60 Vincent Baker (of Dogs in the Vineyard) wrote Apocalypse World, and encouraged people to play, tinker, and release their own hacks. A year later some people played a hack of D&D and AW run by Tony Dowler called “Apocalypse D&D” at GoPlay NW, and it was so fun that one of the players asked to borrow his notes and run it later that con. That was Sage LaTorra, 1/2 of the DW authors.

(You gotta like a crowd where a Quantum Leap reference flies...)

3:36 AM

@nitsua60 I saw some episodes of it, so I at least got what you were talking about

@nitsua60 Example: when we realised normal weapons wouldn't work against yetis, Troggy's character said, "Hey, my secret lab is near here! Let's go magic up some machine guns."

it was on during that time in my life when I was watching a LOOOOT of reruns of slightly old shows, and it had a sci fi element to it so it worked just fine (on top of being semi historically inclined) XD

And when we arrived at the lab: "Hmm. I've never met robot yetis before, so this won't be elegant. [casts a buttload of general enchantments] One of those ought to work!"

@nitsua60 I need to head out; hope I was helpful.

@JoelHarmon very much, thank you!

3:39 AM

@BESW yeah I felt like that was the only thing I could do to contribute at the time, because we were having trouble even getting past them to get somewhere I could sleuth it up, and my party obviously felt like combat sooooo

ttfn

@nitsua60 Also well worth reading the (yet another third-party) Dungeon World Guide. It has helped the game click for a lot of people who didn't quite get DW on a straight read-through.

I am so glad the "class" I chose had two separate lists with separate points in them so I could sort of specialize in two things

@SevenSidedDie [reads] thanks--sounds like it's perfect for me! ("psyched to try Dungeon World but the rules haven't clicked yet.")

one was being the person with the magnifying glass, and the other was being the person with the cool base that had stuff the other characters could pilfer to satiate their mad bloodlust for yeti's

3:42 AM

Also, DW benefits from playing it and running it. Every time I've run a new game of DW (or AW), I feel like I've levelled up in my skill/understanding.

@nitsua60 I agree with @SevenSidedDie that playing/running *world is a LOT different from reading, or listening to podcasts, or anything else.

I wouldn't worry about it "clicking" until the second or third session.

Yes. Just take the GM's section to heart — that is where bulk of the game engine lies, and it's almost entirely invisible to the players. I've seen new GMs skim it, assuming it's just the standard “how to GM” advice, and then wonder why the game didn't really work. When in doubt, look at your Agenda, Principles, and pick a Move!

I've also discovered that I'm really good (in life) at reading something big and complex and getting all the details on a first go, but completely missing out on the big picture/organizing principles. I can have a module practically memorized on first read, but fail to get the "oh, it's a heist caper" insight. So a guide to those things will be helpful =)

Would "Heist Caper" be a good name for a band?

yeah I couldn't personally comment on how hard it must be to GM without having had experience in it already

3:46 AM

@nitsua60 Ah! Can we trade half a brain? I do the opposite—I can't hold the details worth anything, but I get the big picture really well.

I was personally surprised to learn how much the GM could do that the PC reading just didn't tell me

@BESW If it's an indie band, “It's A Heist Caper” would be a good name.

> Never tell me the odds. Your fate points give you +3 instead of the usual +2, as long as you don't know what the difficulty is.

@Magician [blink]

As non-sequiturs go, it's a pretty great one though.

3:48 AM

I came up with it, and wanted to share :P

@Magician I like the idea...

> Never tell me the odds. You can spend fate points for bonuses before you roll the dice instead of after. If you do, each one gives you +3 instead of +2 to the roll.

(Easier to adjudicate.)

@SevenSidedDie perhaps we can work some sort of time-share? I'm not using mine 90% of the time anyway, so perhaps I can farm it out to a few clients =)

@BESW yeah I was just thinking that the prior wording could technically mean either that the bonus goes away once you are told to difficulty to succeed, (sometimes not-so-hilariously turning victory into failure) or take away your bonus on prior uses of FP if you spend any more

I know a lot of that is knit picking, but lets be honest, some of us RPG people can't help ourselves in that area, at least some of the time

[tries to figure out if "knit picking" is a play on words, or if the internet would collapse under the irony if knit->nit were pointed out... aaaaaaahhhhh!?]

thanks, everyone--gave me a lot to go on

night, all

ttfn

Today's "he must have been a PC" is George Antheil. Best known as a composer, he also wrote a murder mystery novel, an advice column, a gossip column, and as an amateur endochrinologist he published a series of articles like "The Glandbook for the Questing Male" and a book on "glandular criminology."

In 1940 a famous actress sought his advice on glandular treatments for "enlarging her upper torso," and their friendship produced the concept of frequency-hopping spread-spectrum torpedoes (her first husband taught her about torpedoes, and Antheil used his experience with player pianos to design the frequency-hopping mechanism).

4:02 AM

....that was quite a leap.

He also sponsored art exhibits for works banned in Nazi Germany.

"Her torpedoes are frequency-hopping, if you know what I mean."

@Magician I know, right?

Seriously though "glandular criminology" is just begging for an Atomic Robo treatment.

@nitsua60 I was not trying to use a play on words,.. I sort of do stuff like that by accident all the time XD

...oh my. He's like the anti-Babbage:

4:06 AM

they range from simple accidental misspellings to literally just saying a thing that happens to have more than one meaning

> Antheil described his "first major work" as "scored for countless numbers of player pianos. All percussive. Like machines. All efficiency. No LOVE. Written without sympathy. Written cold as an army operates. Revolutionary as nothing has been revolutionary." Antheil's original conception was scored for 16 specially synchronized player pianos, two grand pianos, electronic bells, xylophones, bass drums, a siren and three airplane propellers.

> The work enraged some of the concert-goers, whose objections were drowned out by the cacophonous music, while others vocally supported the work, and the concert ended with a riot in the streets.

@BESW I thought Babbage only hated STREET musicians?

did he just not like music at all?

@trogdor In particular, he hated mechanised musical devices, which street musicians used.

ooooooooh

ok then

anti-Babbage it is XD

(Although I suspect there was more than a little bit of racism/nationalism involved, alas.)

4:08 AM

mm

well he had to have some flaws, even if some of them were incredibly regrettable for our current moral culture

> The concert started well, but according to the concert's promoter and producer when the wind machine was turned on "all hell, in a minor way, broke loose." During the gale, audience members clutched their programs and their hats, one "tied a handkerchief to his cane and waved it wildly in the air in a sign of surrender."

sounds both horrific and hilarious

4:23 AM

morning

4:38 AM

good morning

@Sejanus Hi!

5:34 AM

afternoon

@Asteria Hi also!

afternoon is about right here too

also, hi

5:49 AM

That awkward moment when you know the answer, you start typing, and then you realise that you're feeling way too lazy to type out a proper answer.

answers are hard, generally I feel like I have to add several paragraphs to it to make it worth my attention

6:36 AM

The Tower of Down, by Lukc - a deep, narrow dungeon someone made for fun & for others.

7:02 AM

Lukc also does a bunch of other dungeons, like Deep in the Purple Worm.

7:43 AM

I can see my house from here.

8:15 AM

@BESW I am genuinely sad I cannot see the Milky Way from where I live and travel.

8:25 AM

ecommerce lesson: there are two affordable pizza places near me. Both order pizzas I like. I will almost always order from the first because the second's online ordering system is more troublesome to use. Similar principles apply to why I order an uber some mornings instead of booking a taxi, except the taxi apps are absolutely awful on a totally other level (of torment).

9:03 AM

rpg.stackexchange.com/questions/83423/…

vtc please

9:22 AM

@Wibbs Voted and commented.

10:19 AM

Jupiter has auroras!

2 hours later…

12:27 PM

I just put a not-an-answer flag into the queues that on second glance is probably an error on my part. It's an answer.

4 hours later…

4:22 PM

Welp. Ever since I started lurking the chats I regularly get upset with how it goes. I seem to come when it's already the night for everybody else and I get to read a conversation regarding the topic I dig (DW) and it's all over.

Maybe changing the username could help with that. Like, change the name - change the fortunes.

@Nox Couldn't hurt to try. (I mean, logically, there's no way that would work, but we gamers are superstitious by nature... ;) )

@nitsua60 , All right, one thing I wanted to add regarding DW and doing a lot in it is that it seems that GM and players can change the look and the feel of the game by agreeing on "what is the move". The move itself always has equal chances of succeeding and failing, but you can get two vastly different genres of fantasy by tuning the "trigger". You can go dark and gritty and require the character to "defy danger" even to get near the simple goblin.

Or you can go Exalted-scale epic with "I dash, I soar above the skeleton army and slam them from above with a warhammer" - "Okay, roll for hack-and-slash"

But in a couple of games I ran, I have to admit, it was hard to keep that dial on the same value consistently over time and for different players.

@SirTechSpec

Nyah, chatting is hard.

@SirTechSpec, I meant hello. How are you doing?

4:40 PM

@Nox Doin' all right, thanks!

My normally 9-to-6 job is going until 8 this evening, so that will be an adventure. But it's a fun thing (staffing a welcome center for arriving students) so I don't really mind.

Question for the room: if I were to create a room to talk about what I'm doing to customize HotDQ for my gaming group and hopefully get some feedback, would there be any interest?

@SirTechSpec There actually was a HotDQ room a while back; it's long since frozen over, but it saw some use.

I'd certainly be interested to discuss with you, although I lent the books to a friend once I finished running the campaign, so I'd be working from memory.

I ask mostly because I've never GMed DND before (though I've run other games) and could use advice on some points, but also partly because I want people to appreciate all the ingenious ways (INGENIOUS, I TELL YOU) I'm tying their backstories to new or existing plot points which my players, not knowing the original text, can't fully appreciate (and I don't want to brag directly to them, that'd be gauche/spoilers.) :P

@SirTechSpec That's totally understandable! I also did some stuff in that direction, and finding people to boast to about it was quite tricky :)

@SevenSidedDie @ToshinouKyouko Would a friendly mod mind giving the HotDQ chat a quick thaw?

@SirTechSpec I should point out that while I'm keen to chat in general, it's 3am here, so I won't be talking tonight.

@Miniman Yeah, my lunch break's almost over :)

Anyway thanks, I'll give it a go

If nothing else it'll be good to collet my thoughts somewhere other than pencil notes in the margins (though don't get me wrong, I'm enjoying doing that over having to refer to notes on my computer at every turn)

5:02 PM

@Miniman @SirTechSpec Done and done!

@SevenSidedDie Thanks!

3 hours later…

7:39 PM

Have you ever tried writing a question, and getting lost in examples every time you try it?

1 hour later…

9:00 PM

@Zachiel Yup. Oh so yup.

It's basically: what hit chance should I expect from a D&D 4e game?

I'm around 95 for the players (especially melee) 10% for the enemies.

Despite you already telling me it's not supposed to be a fair game... I don't think this is how the game is supposed to play.

That does sound kinda boring.

How's their damage and utility?

Ok, so we are four. The wizard is doing mostly minion clear and some damage. Useful, but not that great. Also, most of her attacks are against defenses other than AC and she hits less than the other guys as a result. Damage is mediocre but AoE, she generates on opportuinty attacks and basically as long as she's not in melee all is good.

Wait, what? Mage vs non-AC is standard, and non-AC defenses are generally a point or three lower than AC--which is why weapons give proficiency bonuses, to bump ACward attacks up to AC numbers.

The dual-wielding fighter has a decent damage, but the problem is that he has a +23 to hit at level 12. Most enemies he hits on a 2 or less. Some he hits on a 4, provided they are not debuffed. Some of his attacks, especially Come and Get It, are weapon attacks that target not-AC defenses. People he can hit with his reach2 weapon risks damage and not being able to move if they shift or attack someone else. Which means he's the only target of anyone he marks, see Come and get It

9:10 PM

How does the fighter have a +23?

@BESW that's probably because she has no +1 to hit implement

...no enchanted implement? That's a problem.

@BESW No, I mean, it's not one of those wands that give an additional +1 and require a feat to be used.

I think at level 12 everyone should have a +2 enchant and be looking forward to a +3.

Let's see, fighter. [dredges up years-old stats] +6 level, +2 enchant, +1 fighter, +3 proficiency, +2 feat, +2 flanking advantage...

even if I got all those numbers low by 1, that's not +23 yet.

afk a while

@BESW +6 Str, +6 half level, +3 proficiency, +3 enchant, +2 combat advantage when no other character is nearer than him to the target (he is melee), +1 for being in the party with a leader that took the appropriate feat, +2 feat, +1 fighter. +24

I mean, 24 is feasible, but he's not using swords so it's just a +23

9:18 PM

Oh, right, Str. heh. It's been a loong time.

The Twin Strike ranger has similar figuras, and can make an interruption that imposes a -7 penalty to an enemy hit against one of his allies.

Both the wizard and the runepriest debuff both armor and to hit.

So for the fighter is very easy to be stopping things in their tracks, even now that the player is basically doiing whatever looks cool ("I push him into the house!") Instead of what would be most effective.

It is no help that most monsters are melee and all of the players have a really high AC

And initiative.

Okay, so it sounds like they've got good group synergy and that's something 4e does VERY well.

And they're 4 against encounters made for 5. They're on a siege now and after the third wave of assailants they have used like five surges in total.

I have no idea of what might happen when the charging barbarian player comes back in, now that enemies are usually prevented from attacking her character.

And if someone risks dying, it is the fighter that Come-and-Get-It-s 7 or 8 enemies all around him.

Even if, to be true, the only time he died it was the wizard trying to fry three trolls with her last fire attack for the encounter.

Now they bought the fighter a fire weapon and the problem is solved.

9:36 PM

I know that when I was running 4e, I designed encounters with the party setup in mind.

Generally I didn't have to fiddle with numbers, but I'd invent actions and synergies that challenged the PCs and took advantage of their tactics.

eg, my players had a lot of extra attack gimmicks, so I'd give them enemies who preferred to be attacked many times: on-hit triggered actions, a very small amount of damage reduction, etc.

As you might remember from past conversations, I'm more interested in creating a game that works (a 4e hack) than in changing the adventure. I think it's a "fix it once, never worry again" mentality

On the other hand, I have found it hard to revoke privileges I have already given to them, like using the Dark Sun rules for native enchantment bonuses. I thought it would have been cool to remove the bonuses from weapons, armors and necklaces in order to have them diversify, but as it always is, more variety means better optimization.

Ugh. I just saw a black spot on the wall that I identified with a spider (there was a similarly-sized black spider scuttering on the wall near the sink this morning). As I passed by the wall with the black spot, the fly took flight and I recognized it. A moment later, I realized it could have been a flying spider. Imagine THE HORROR!

10:11 PM

@Zachiel, are you using a pre-fab adventure here?

@Nox interesting point; thanks.

hi, @nitsua60

@Nox Alas, you logged on at 2:22am my time.

any more thoughts on DW (now that @Nox doesn't seem to be active :P )?

@JoelHarmon me?

10:19 PM

@nitsua60 yes

or anyone, really

@JoelHarmon no; I've been doing RL-interesting things all day--hadn't even thought of it until I returned to my hotel and saw the message from @Nox

hey there @nitsua60

I thought you were on vacation?

@Shalvenay hiya

The Stack is a harsh mistress.

am--I have one last assignment due for my current class--due tonight. So I had to bring the laptop =(
But I get to check in with y'all's =)

10:22 PM

@nitsua60 Yey!

@Zachiel This link is not for the spider-averse.

@Shalvenay brought the Traveler book with me--I think we'd bee good to start up next week if we can figure out a time.

@JoelHarmon A pre-fab plus some work someone already did on it to make the monsters on par with the post MMIII design philosophies (and to make the story run more smoothly)

ah

I think the easiest way to make the fights more interesting (yes, I know you only asked about hit chances) would be to change terrain

@nitsua60 hrm. what do you think will work well for you?

@JoelHarmon Oh, man. Setpieces were my bag in 4e.

10:25 PM

@JoelHarmon I have had my fair deal of this solution when one encounter had fires going all around, or icy terrain, or traps. I've also had rooms with lots of hampering terrain where the combat never went.

...well, that and stripping needlessly complex monsters down to their barest mechanics to showcase what was actually interesting about fighting them.

@BESW I'm always slightly disappointed when fighting in yet another open field with a few random scrub bushes

@Zachiel I suppose there could be too much of that, if overdone

@JoelHarmon I'm especially fond of the time we stampeded sacred elephants through a forest in the middle of a fight with rebels who wanted to make one of the PCs their new king.

@JoelHarmon yeah -- terrain is a huge variable

Now I have had some encounters with city walls (to defend, or to climb, and some trees to provide cover. Our fighter dragged one troll over the roof of one house, only to throw it down next turn, turning a tree into some debris in the process.)

10:30 PM

the terrain + elephant combo reminded me of a fun thing that happened in one of my games. The PCs were going to ambush a caravan going through <new city>, so I decided to let them pick "where along the road", aka, draw in buildings. During the ambush, the halfling decides to roll under a cart and start stabbing up at it, trying to get inside. The wizard sees this, and casts polymorph (elephant).

my only regret is it was my first 5e dm foray, and I forgot to award inspiration

11:08 PM

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11:35 PM

reminds me loosely of playing Mage as Technocracy

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