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12:00 AM
@Shalvenay But, for the Stack, it's still the same thing.
 
@doppelgreener most Stacks aren't as topically diverse as ours even.
 
@Shalvenay Like what?
 
A C# question is looking for answers from people who would know if Java reasoning can be applied to the situation.
 
@BESW if you don't know a system, how are you supposed to know what spaces it fills? (granted, on the touchscreen question, I was able to make a good guess knowing a little about the way fluff in WW stuff works and based on the wording of the question)
 
@Shalvenay Frankly, you just got lucky.
 
12:03 AM
@Shalvenay our topic happens to be a diverse one with many questions that are stack-worthy, so that's just how it works out.
 
@Shalvenay Seriously, I'm wracking my brain trying to come up with a C# question that can be legitimately answered from Java experience, and I've got nothing.
 
@Miniman "How do pointers work?" "What is pass by reference vs pass by value?" "What's 'void' mean?" (but all of these suggest you should also know C# enough to know that your Java experience is relevant... which means you can only answer it insofaras you have relevant C# experience... which means you're answering from C# experience, not Java experience)
 
@Miniman FP comes to mind immediately, blame IEEE 754 -- there are JS questions on SO I can answer without knowing a whit of JS
 
@doppelgreener You can take a guess, but the way pointers work in both languages isn't identical, and you're likely to get some bits wrong.
 
@Shalvenay English Language Learners recently split off from English Language & Usage because their subject matter was too diverse for one Stack to handle. Science Fiction & Fantasy regularly argues about whether it should include children's stories, fairy tales, allegories, etc. Coffee could theoretically be contained entirely within Seasoned Advice, and there's still hurt feelings about the idea that it's not, but there's sufficient sense that it's complex enough to be its own Stack that it's in beta--but it's not including tea.
Writers tries to accommodate novels, short stories, poetry, academic, and technical writing. Graphic Design contains web layout, digital art, 3d/CGI effects, and physical media.
 
12:08 AM
@BESW are you saying that you should never bother to answer questions unless you know the system like the back of your own hand, even if general logic or your simulationist instincts are guiding you strongly towards a particular answer? (I'm not at that level of mastery with 5e even)
 
@Shalvenay He never said or implied that; just that you should have some experience.
 
also, I'm a little scared that the only way you could find out that we had potential SoF experts was through pawing through comments @BESW...
@Miniman because you saw how far awry my sim-sense led me on that force cube question
(and that's in a system I have significant experience with)
 
@Shalvenay I'm saying that if we're not somehow familiar with the system, our answers are very likely to be non-useful. Personal experience is usually best, but not the only kind of familiarity.
 
@Shalvenay I'm not sure that's what happened there. None of the stuff in your answer looks wrong exactly, so I'm guessing the downvotes come from people who think it's, unnecessary, maybe?
 
@Shalvenay [shrug] The presence or absence of people familiar with the system doesn't change whether I should answer a question on something I know nothing about.
Un-answered questions are not bad for the site, if the alternative is answers based on wild speculation.
 
12:14 AM
@Miniman well -- what happened there is my sim-sense (based on the way combustion works IRL -- it's a vapor-phase reaction) led me to a somewhat odd ruling on the way an effect that blocks gases or vapors interacts with fire breath
 
If that means we don't retain some users--sobeit. User retention is never a reason to lower the quality bar for site content, because lowered quality will cause even MORE people to leave.
 
@BESW well, I pinged Tritium21 here and we'll see if he turns up to give us a solid answer
(and downvoted the other answer on that question -- based on Greener and SSD's comments)
@Miniman and basically, SSD objected saying I was trying to inappropriately science my way around the fantasy-trope interpretation of fire breath
 
@Shalvenay In a setting that's explicitly rejected basic scientific principles already, that seems like a legit protest.
 
I think the more interesting case with regards to the force cube is if I put a propane torch to that side of it :P
 
And there's nothing wrong with idle speculation about the implications of such things.
But in nine out of ten cases such speculation isn't gonna make for useful answers because it starts with an assumption that the game system itself defies.
 
12:27 AM
now, as to that blasted Spiritjaws question...
 
Yeah, answering that one using simulationism seems like an incredibly bad idea.
 
@Miniman yeah, I was actually debating slapping on it
 
12:43 AM
@BESW If we're fearful of people leaving because they don't get answers, and instead give them poor answers, things will be worse. Our community will regularly supply answer which don't work or make things worse. We will attract users who are fine with this or don't have the skill to recognise what's going on, and repulse users who are dissatisfied with poor quality content. So we begin gathering poorer quality users, and repulsing experts.
... which is a beautiful sort of vicious cycle.
Just like we're repulsed from the Fate Reddit because they're so often uncannily mistaken about the game's own rules and give poor advice accordingly, and like how we were repulsed from the G+ Fate community because they were obsessed with Aspects being the be-all end-all solution to everything.
We already have this on a very small scale, because there's some answers which fly under the radar, or the voters lack the expertise to recognise a problem, or so on. We don't need to just drop our quality bar and accept this happening on a wide scale.
@Shalvenay That would be inappropriate. They are asking about the rules, but they aren't asking about strict RAW, and it is not an invitation to bring up simulationism to the exclusion of having a clue about the rules.
 
1:00 AM
@doppelgreener alrighty then
 
1:39 AM
@doppelgreener another thing is that I don't seem to be getting rewarded (much) for my attempts at interpreting the rules, even in the systems I know well (5e and to some extent 3.x)
@doppelgreener is there something wrong with the lens I'm interpreting the rules through?
 
@Shalvenay If you choose simulation over the rules, such as if you assert fire is based on vapor in a system mostly inspired by Aristotlean physics, there's going to be a problem. Our askers are trying to figure out how the game works, not how the universe works, and the universe is only relevant insofar as the game cares about it.
And as our old conversations about chemistry have covered to death - D&D doesn't really care what chemistry has to say about anything at all.
 
D&D uses chemistry words to describe events which are only superficially similar to chemistry.
Mistaking that for actual chemistry is, yes, a poor lens.
 
@Shalvenay That could be up to a lot of factors. Good answers are correct (where possible), well written and presented, insightful, well-founded in the game's rules or any other relevant bases, and so on. Some of your answers don't pass all these bars. It takes practice and picking your battles. If I can't answer a question well and confidently, I don't, and leave it to someone else to do it. What remains is the questions I can answer very well, and I make sure I do so.
Other people have other strategies which also work well for them, so this is not necessarily the best approach, but it works for me and gives me what I want: I get to provide great answers about great stuff I enjoy, help people and build my own knowledge as a result of having to do research, articulation and the other things that come with teaching, and I don't really faff around with anything else.
 
Also, voting really is impossible to predict. I have 5 score answers and 20 score answers that are functionally identical.
 
Voting quantity is tied pretty directly to the question topic.
 
2:02 AM
Accessibility to a general audience is also a factor in voting quantity. Is the topic one many care about? Is the question and answer one people can generally understand and know how to judge? When a question is low on relevance to others or it or the answer are impenetrable to most people, there's going to be less voting.
 
2:26 AM
Howdy guys.
 
So, I'm thinking I'm going to end up GMing my first Pathfinder game.
 
Yawp.
ooer.
 
I've played a bunch, but never GMd before.
So, exciting stuff is afoot.
 
 
2:32 AM
Are you proud of yourself?
 
I'm not sorry.
 
As long as you own it.
 
@misterducky heheh. what sort of campaign do you have in mind, or is this going to be a "one-shot" affair?
 
Ben
2:51 AM
Afternoon
[checks watch]
..Afternoon
 
hey there @Ben
 
Ben
@Shalvenay You were doing some planning with your game/game system recently weren't you? How's that going?
 
@Ben alright -- need a bit o' critter-naming help atm though. one of the critters in my universe is a domesticated ROUS species (think "capybara with a rat snout" for the appearance), but I can't come up with a good name for such a thing
 
Who's naming it?
 
@BESW I'm actually rather not caring about "who" atm -- the Orcs-naming-it thing was a half-joke that kind of took off unintentionally
 
3:02 AM
See, names need namers.
 
aaah, part of the problem on my front is one of the things I am blessed with is a fantasy RNameG
 
Stuff doesn't get magically named by nobody, and who does the naming is crucial to what the name winds up being.
 
(but one that's only good for character names :o )
 
An elf name might mean Gentle friend with the bristled back while an ork name means Bacon that doesn't run away and a halfling name means Bet you can't stay on for ten seconds.
2
 
:P
 
3:14 AM
(this is legit advice)
 
It seems like you want it to be a fitting name since you've been deliberating on it so much, so that means there's something it has to fit to. That would be the namer.
 
@Pixie yeah. orcish or kobold would be nice, but unfortunately I don't have a dictionary for either :P
 
Holy crap! I would never have thought this day would come...
 
@Miniman what?
 
@Shalvenay And neither do we. They're your orcs and your kobolds. If you want them to have a specific feel in terms of language and names, you have to invent it. You don't need to go Tolkien on it, though. You just need to figure out, in broad swaths, how they name things, which @BESW has been giving examples of.
 
3:24 AM
@Pixie yeah. come to think of it, did the languages of the Forgotten Realms ever get a dictionary? (I'd be willing to reuse the "stock" Elvish/Orcish/Draconic from the FR setting, or even Greyhawk for that matter -- it'd also help me when it comes time to define verbal components for spells, because my 2e DM wants me to get more into spell components, and my char casts in elvish, uniformly)
 
@Shalvenay an "orcish dictionary" must be a very rare and patiently compiled artifact...
 
D&D 3.5's race handbooks have basic glossaries for the primary races.
 
@Shalvenay So far as I know, no, but my knowledge here is limited.
 
@Shalvenay I've overtaken waxeagle on the D&D 5e top users page.
 
@BESW that's good to know :)
@Miniman wow
that's even bigger than me making 3k rep
 
3:29 AM
@Shalvenay Not really, it doesn't actually make a difference to anything. 3k rep is a big change in your site powers, this is just a slight ego-boost.
 
@Shalvenay, at the moment I'm deciding whether I should run Rise of the Runelords, or if I'm going to run a campaign made up of PFS scenarios. I have a ton of ideas for self-written campaigns in the Golarion setting, but I'm no where near ready to run that.
 
I played Rise of the Runelords for quite a while. It was fun, but then anything probably would have been with my group.
 
I really want to run a campaign that culminates in the PCs venturing into the Vaults of Orv.
 
@misterducky I'd say that PFS scenarios are likely to be more limiting -- they probably aren't playtested against parties that fall outside the PFS rules
 
I mean, to be fair, they also aren't playtested against most new material.
 
3:34 AM
I have been summoned?
 
@misterducky yeah, I suspect Unchained stuff would cause them trouble for instance
 
Apparently the Psychic is more OP than the Arcainist.
*Arcanist
 
@Tritium21 oh hey there! We could use a expert @Tritium21
2
Q: How do you judge the difficulty of an encounter in Strands of Fate?

Epsilon RoseI recently found Strands of Fate and it looks like a really fun system; so, naturally, I want to run a short campaign in it to try it out. Unfortunately, the book doesn't seem to give any tips for how to set up encounters in terms of number and quality of NPCs so they're an appropriate challenge ...

is ze question
 
Uh, I have played exactly one game of SOF (a 6 session campaign) where we didnt exorcise the system almost at all.
 
so, time to find an @sillyputty then?
because right now, it's between you and him
 
3:37 AM
actually, let me see if i have my GM's ex husband on facebook
 
"Hey, you know your ex? Can you ask them about a game we used to play?"
 
Nope, I was blocked in the break-up friend exchange
 
Those are the worst.
 
not really. I was friends with him through is wife
 
@Tritium21 awww man. I assume that you can't reach any of the other players from that campaign either?
 
3:41 AM
[invents Rune of the Riselords, a campaign module about searching for ancient recipes left behind by legendary bread-bakers]
7
 
I can reach my GM, but she is not the strongest on SOF. the other player i lost in the friend exchange could have also helped
 
@BESW [invents Raise of the Runelords, a campaign module about enormously powerful and careful gamblers playing for high stakes that are all encompassing and.... wait that's just Rise of the Runelords isn't it]
 
@BESW, I'd play that
 
@doppelgreener ...now I have this scene of someone DMing Rise of the Runelords in the middle of a casino in Deadwood stuck in my head
(it's a shame that one-armed bandits drive me insane, otherwise I'd go for it in a heartbeat)
 
@doppelgreener [invents Lord of the Riserunes, a campaign module about an eccentric genius whose evil magics force all who come in contact with them to float about like balloons]
4
 
3:49 AM
@Pixie [invents Rise of the Lordrunes, a campaign module about runes coming to life - or perhaps they were always alive! - and exerting their power on the mortal world to seize dominion, through nefarious schemes and making dissenters float about like balloons]
3
 
@doppelgreener The sequel, clearly. The Lord of the Riserunes has played god and now he cannot control his creations.
 
@Shalvenay his timeline is optimistic at best, flat out wrong at worst.
its a matter of a week or two - but the main point still stands, its not months or years
 
@Tritium21 well, if he wanted to stand in line instead of paying out the nose for a rush order, sure :) but yeah -- even a week would be impressive for arming an entire adventuring party, although I'm not sure if that'd be more or less amazing than the idea that a forge that big exists to begin with
 
heres the kicker... I (a hypothetical blacksmith in a fully modern shop) can make you 6 swords in a week... but if you give me 3 weeks, I can make a million of them
scales of production
love em
 
4:03 AM
that is great.
a friend of mine works at a screen printing shop and puts it like this: "I can make you one t-shirt in an hour, or a hundred t-shirts in two hours."
 
@Tritium21 ya. if someone put a dwarven smith into a modern forge in full production swing, they'd be awed
 
can i just point out, that I love the person who answered the question, to which that link was a comment on? I am SOO tired of katana fanboys touting the layers and folding in their swords making them super awesome. It doesn't. folding modern steel, or even medieval European steel makes it weaker. the japanese had to because the iron ore available to them was utter crap.
 
if you're feeling particularly frisky/knowledgeable on forging...
2
Q: Is it feasible to forge multiple, smaller parts in the same forging operation?

ThreePhaseEelLet us assume you have a large forging press or drophammer, and drawings for a set of smaller parts that all need to be forged from the same material. Would it be feasible to construct a forging die so that all the parts could be forged from a single billet and then separated as a machining step...

 
I am not an expert enough to answer that.
I just read a lot
 
aaah
 
4:09 AM
possible, of course. practical? I dont know
 
yeah.
it wouldn't surprise me if it's been done somewhere
 
I wish i could remember episodes of How Its Made better than I do, because I seam to recall one of the tools made on the show was forged on a spru
 
Ben
Ok... D&D 5e... I want to play a bard but I'm just not quite sold on how they work... I'm imagining Cacofonix
 
@Ben Have you played any of the Zelda games?
 
Ben
Although lately I have been imagining Miguel a bit more...
@Miniman OoT, MM, Oracle of Seasons/Ages were the main ones
 
user15026
4:18 AM
@Ben I loved the Oracle games.
 
@Ben Awesome! So think about OoT. The Song of Storms can control the weather, because it's the song that controls the weather, being played on a magical instrument. Being a Bard is like that, except the musician is magical instead of the instrument.
 
Ben
@AshleyNunn Me too :) Though I preferred Seasons over Ages :)
@Miniman Ooooo....
You have my attention...
 
user15026
@Ben Hahaha, I am the opposite of you
 
@Ben There are book series that implement this concept better, but I'm having trouble coming up with one off the top of my head, and this seemed like a more accessible example.
@AshleyNunn I liked them both! Seasons has much more difficult boss fights, but Ages has much more difficult puzzles.
 
Ben
@Miniman Ok, well that's definitely changed my perception :)
 
user15026
4:22 AM
@Miniman That reminds me. I have Ages on my 3DS, I should play it :) (I finished a replay of Seasons relatively recently)
 
Ben
@AshleyNunn @Miniman yeah I agree, the puzzles were harder in Ages, and being a 9 yr old at the time I got lost easily haha
 
fidgits game was canceled this weekend cause of work... really wanted to get my superhero on.
 
@Ben Glad I could help!
@AshleyNunn Linked game ftw!
 
user15026
@Miniman When I played the original games, I had ages and a friend had seasons, and we traded and I remember thinknig it was SO COOL that you could link the games
 
(I was stuck on Twinrova for years before I realised you had to sword her after you seed her.)
@AshleyNunn I've only ever done it with passwords - I don't think I've ever even heard of a reliable link cable :)
 
Ben
4:24 AM
 
user15026
@Miniman Yeah, I played them before I knew about walkthroughs and things so stuff like that was tricky
 
user15026
@Miniman I had one that worked well for a little bit til my cat chewed it
 
@Tritium21 yeah, I'm actually rather glad that a couple of my normal games got canceled anyway (the 2e game I'm in got a double-shot of "busy DM", and the same happened to wax's 5e game this last week -- unfortunately, I was the cause for a cancellation on the other 5e game I'm in since my character is the focal point of a quest there, and I'm missing 2x sessions of the 3.5e game I'm in)
 
@AshleyNunn I had one that worked based on whether the number of days since it was made was a multiple of the corresponding digit of pi.
(This may or may not actually be true.)
 
you know you like your game when you are tempted to be that guy and talk about your character
 
4:27 AM
@Tritium21 heheh.
 
@Ben I'm totally going to have to make Link the Valour Bard now, btw.
 
Ben
You're welcome :P
@Miniman I'm actually thinking of making Miguel my Bard haha
"Miguel and Tulio"
"Only one Miguel!"
"Mighty and powerful Gods!"
 
 
1 hour later…
user61230
6:01 AM
 
6:33 AM
I love logging in to random rep from answers I posted months ago lol
 
@eimyr I had an idea years ago, of a new martial arts style for Shadowrun or similar. Combat dancing. Combining the more showy martial arts moves and the more physical dance moves, into something that can be used on the dancefloor or the field of combat. You get a bonus to your attacks if you do it in time to music.
 
Morning
 
user61230
G'morning!
 
Morning :)
 
@Adeptus D&D 3.5 has that in at least 2 different ways :P
@SPArchaeologist @Emrakul @Nyoze Afternoon!
 
user61230
6:47 AM
How goes it!
 
Good! You?
 
@Miniman 3.5 has everything in at least 2 different ways. If it doesn't, there's homebrew for that :P
 
user61230
Things go decently!
 
user61230
Getting involved in a couple RPGs. Made a couple posts on RPG.SE and on reddit.
 
@Emrakul Nice to see you a bit more active here! Does that mean things have settled down over at puzzling.se?
 
user61230
6:51 AM
It does indeed! And yeah, even when I want to it can be hard to find things to answer here.
 
user61230
Usually with my settings, I only see about 20% of the current questions.
 
Not a D&D fan, I take it.
 
user61230
Yeah, not really.
 
user61230
It's a system I'll play in for the sake of social gameplay, but I don't like it enough to learn the gritty details.
 
I'm with you there Emrakul. I like the whole idea of D&D, but... Actually doing it scares me.
 
user61230
6:55 AM
Yeah, I know what you mean. 5e got better, though, to be honest.
 
user61230
It's no longer "wait, really, you're doing that!?" and is much more "eh, that's sort of mediocre, but I guess."
 
I don't know... I mean, from what I can see it looks better, but without actually buying the books I can't tell. And I try not to spend money on games anymore.
 
@Emrakul Yeah, the optimization gap has gotten hugely smaller.
 
user61230
Mm, yeah. Numbers are a lot more meaningful in 5e. Probably because there are fewer of them.
 
I would like to give 5e a shot sometime, just to see, and I want to buy the books at some point because they are full of beautiful art. It's rare that I buy anything but a PDF, but these I want. I just have yet to prioritize that over, well, things I'll actually use.
 
user61230
7:02 AM
You might be able to find a PDF copy online, @Nyoze.
 
user61230
Yay, my first upvote on RPG.SE in forever!
 
@Emrakul The one that really keeps freaking me out is AC. It's gone from an absolute minimum of 30 in 3.5 to an absolute maximum of 24.
 
@Emrakul The basic rules are online, and I've read them, but I feel like I'm missing out on everything else with the PHB and DMG. And I hate downloading things like that :(
 
The basic PDFs are free online. (Legally, I mean. Pretty much anything is available online if you look hard enough and don't care about copyright)
 
user61230
Huh. Someone sent me a copy for a game. Only now I wonder if it's a legal online...
 
7:03 AM
@Miniman Oh man... Screw that for a joke. I stress out whenever I have a PF character with less then 20.
 
@Nyoze Personally I own all the books, but my favourite by far is the Monster Manual. It's a beautiful book in so many ways.
 
user61230
@Miniman AC has a minimum of 30? I'm confused...
 
@Emrakul If it's the PHB, then nope.
 
> If you have less than 30 AC, you are going to die. Often.
 
@Emrakul Just a figure of speech with numbers for 3.5
 
user61230
7:05 AM
@Adeptus Dernit. I wanted that to be legal. Ah well, I just won't use it.
 
user61230
@Miniman @Nyoze Got it. Yeah, things have been shifted quite a bit.
 
I'll try one day. Maybe if they ever release a bit more content. I mean, they've done some great job with classes, but I want something out of the standard base classes :(
(Says the guy who 9 times out of 10 ends up playing a fighter who focuses on making sure no one moves. Ever.)
 
@Nyoze (Picking noses also forbidden?)
 
Well... You can do it. Maybe. But only if you want to end up on the floor impaled with a large polearm of some description.
 
@Nyoze It probably doesn't need to be said, but you can do that with what's available.
Wait - not really.
 
7:10 AM
What, really?
There's no reliable way to try and trip-lock people?
Now I'm actually curious to see what I could do...
 
Sorry, that was my bad. You could do it far more simply and easily than you could in 3.5, except that you can only make one AoO per round, so you can only do it to one person.
 
@Emrakul They've finally released legal PDFs of core books for previous versions (not 4e yet, as far as I could see), so they may eventually have legal 5e PDFs
 
@Nyoze Tripping is garbage, but there's a feat that means your AoOs reduce speed to 0 for a round.
 
user61230
Wait, if they haven't released PDFs, how do I even have a PDF copy at all? o_O
 
@Miniman No combat reflexes feat? Damn.
 
7:12 AM
@Nyoze There are 2 monsters that have something along those lines, but nothing for players as it stands.
 
@Emrakul Scanner. OCR. Patient person. Or, company leak - I think I remember that a draft PHB PDF was on the net before the printed one was released
 
user61230
Huh. It looks like an official copy.
 
user61230
This definitely isn't a scan; it's properly typeset and everything.
 
Fallout Shelter is getting fun. Raiders are running into my first defense room, getting shot a whole lot... then one survives, runs into the next defense room to take up position, then falls down dead immediately before taking a swing. And then the people in that room open fire a few times. Then they pause for a moment, and then celebrate victory, as if they're so stunned they didn't even comprehend what happened.
 
user61230
What game is this?
 
7:20 AM
@Emrakul Fallout Shelter, I'm guessing.
 
user61230
Oh. >_>
 
It happens to us all sometimes :P
 
No, it only happens to Emrakul.
(I am joking, it is not just you Emrakul)
 
user61230
offended glare Well, I'll be!
 
user61230
(just need to pay more attention to what I'm reading >_>)
 
7:25 AM
Hello folks
 
@MarcDingena Hi!
 
user61230
[wave] Hello, @MarcD!
 
Howdy!
 
So, I had my first ever Fate session last Friday.
 
user61230
7:26 AM
Congratulations! How'd it go?
 
In my honest opinion? Complete. Disaster.
 
Sounds like my first time!
 
user61230
Heh! What went wrong?
 
Long story short, they agreed to do a do-over, but one player already said they wouldn't attend to that one.
There is a multitude of stuff that didn't go right... You sure you wanna hear about all that? :P
 
Absoballylutely. [chin in hands, elbows on table]
 
7:31 AM
So, the point of the session was to introduce my Pathfinder group to a new system. 3 out of 4 canceled last minute, although one of them was due to public transportation messing up. She did attend the session a little later, but more on that in a minute...
So that was a kick in the nuts already, since the main reason we're even switching systems would be lost on that session, but hey, I really wanted to play Fate and so did the people who did attend.
So my group was 2/4th of the original PF group, plus my wife and one of my player's girlfriends.
My wife, let's call her W, has zero RP experience.
The girlfriend, let's call her G, has played a lot of D&D before.
 
user61230
(Sorry to interrupt; were you playing Core or Accelerated?)
 
There was also a confusion on that. I prepared Core, the guy who wanted to try GMing prepared Accelerated. I didn't think it would be a big issue, I'd use Core knowledge as a backup for him if he'd get stuck.
Though I did start out with reading about Fate through Accelerated, but stopped halfway through because of a couple of references to Core and I though, oh what the heck let's read that.
So we've got W and G, then from my original group we have T and K, and story-teller dude will be S.
So there we are, quite a big group. We have dinner first, and as dessert we start talking about a setting. We go around the table to see where people's interests lie.
Since it's just a "lets get a feeling for Fate" kind of session, we didn't want to put too much effort into the setting, but we still talked about it for a good hour or so...
We settled on Harry Potter meets Lost.
We'd be shipwrecked and on the run for 'Voldemort', a cultist organisation trying to resurrect him and we'd have to stop the ritual.
But our immediate issue was, "survive on this island".
Then we get to character creation, and it starts going a little bit downhill.
For some reason, G really loves playing level 0 characters.
She loves the mundane and incompetence, but I tried to explain to her that Fate is about competence and drama.
She insisted that she'd be useful in social conflicts, and the group was alright with that.
So I rolled with it.
Then there was W, playing an agent from the Ministry of Magic (or whatever it's called in English Harry Potter, we play in Dutch). So that's quite a competent character there.
T played an archaeologist with butter fingers (think like a slapstick Indiana Jones).
I played a character as well, since S read the rules and he wanted to give storytelling / GMing a go. So I was playing a tomb raider, and I thought it would be nice to connect my background to the archaeologist.
Then K walked in, after being delayed in traffic for an hour. She sat at the table, got like a 2 minute summary of everything we talked about so far, and she made a character: a 14 year old Syrian boat fugitive who barely speaks English but knows a bit of magic.
>_>
Then we get to the Phase Trio part of character creation, but since another hour or so passed, a few were getting slightly impatient. So they suggested that we skip the backstory part, just so we can 'play a bit of Fate' and see what's it all about.
At this point, I didn't even get to explain anything about the 4 actions, 4 outcomes, the dice or even Aspects...
So, to not be the stick in the mud, looking at the clock, I decided to roll with that too... I would introduce the rules as they'd come up. BUT, I wasn't the GM....
So, there I was, interrupting the story teller at various points in the story to explain to the group, "this is where you break out the dice, because there is an interesting outcome to either succeeding or failing", or, "you don't have to attack this bear, you could try to change up the situation to create an advantage for you or the group".
Most often, I'd do this through my character, so when we were fighting a bear, I'd show that instead of attacking it, I'd kick sand in its eyes to create Sand In Eyes, write it on a piece of paper and put it on the table.
But the way we were introduced to the rules was very messy and stop-n-go. It made for a very confusing session, for them.
I think "going back" on resolving things differently confused the group to the point where one of them even said outright "I think I'd enjoy it more if we just sat on the couch and told a story together". I responded that that'd be okay, and it'd be completely free-form, but then we're not playing Fate.
Because we started out completely free-form, and when I felt that the storyteller wasn't applying the rules (in situations where he could have, and he knows because he read the FAE rules), I'd explain to the group that if we'd encounter a similar situation, we'd resolve it differently.
And that'd be okay too, but I didn't want the night to continue like this, and then at the end we could pretend we had played Fate while in fact it was just rules-less freeform...
If we play a session to get to know a system, I said we should at least try to follow the systems rules to discover if it's a good system for us...
So by the end of that, we decided to do a do-over soon, I'd take the GM role, and I'd go over the system rules first, before even touching anything like the setting or characters. We might even use the already-established setting and characters to speed things up.
I just felt that it'd be nice to establish the setting and characters first, and then questions like "how do you do stuff" would come up naturally...
So yeah, I think it was a disaster, and they are going to enter the next session not with a clear head, but a sour taste in their mouth... so I wonder if Fate will ever take off in my group.
:(
 
user61230
7:56 AM
It's not a lost cause, but it'll probably take a fair bit of work to bring them back.
 
user61230
Having players with different competency levels is going to make things tricky.
 
user61230
But, truth be told, it just sounds like things were disorganized from the start.
 
@Emrakul I agree, and that's entirely my fault. I believe I had good reasons to leave it very open-ended, because of some people's prejudice (for lack of a better English word). I wanted to keep conversation light, and kind of accidentally roll into rules and such through questions like "okay but how do I do stuff?" naturally occurring. But it didn't go as planned.
 
user61230
That makes sense.
 
user61230
Part of the difficulty with that lies in that Fate can be very foreign to people, though, and its philosophies don't necessarily come naturally.
 
user61230
8:01 AM
Or, at least, aren't immediately obvious.
 
Another reason it didn't "take off" was because we didn't do any character backstory. And we were just a bunch of characters who would normally be unlikely to work together. We did establish that we didn't know each other beforehand. So that combined with zero interlinked backstory made for a very rubbish start.
 
user61230
You might want to go back on that, honestly.
 
Obviously. We'll be restarting the story at the beginning, and I will have changed their character sheets slightly to be more competent and have linked backstories.
 
user61230
I would suggest letting them do it themselves, honestly.
 
user61230
I think you'll see better results that way.
 
8:06 AM
G, who played the incompetent "infamous politician's daughter" just stood there, panicking on the beach as the other characters washed up on the shore.
@Emrakul Any group I have played with has some serious problems with "homework"...
 
user61230
Maybe do it at the table with them?
 
That was the plan...
Look how that went :P
 
user61230
But part of that was that a) someone wasn't there, and b) people didn't want to dedicate time to it
 
"No, let's not do the whole backstory thing, we just wanna dive into the game now"
- "Okay, but you realize you won't have any relation to the other characters, and also miss out on 3 character aspects, right? I don't think it's a good idea."
"Yeah, but let's just play Fate so we can see if we like it..."
 
hrm. Given all that, I suggest partially-filled-in pre-made characters.
Something in the style of Aeon Wave or my Doctor Who characters.
 
8:11 AM
@BESW Just so I understand, did you use alternate rules for the approaches? I thought all but one approach gets a bonus?
 
@MarcDingena They're not all filled in yet! Just like the empty approach and stunt slots, they're left for the players to fill in during the session.
The first time the Doctor's player wants to be Careful, he'll decide which of the remaining +1, +2, or +0 ranks he wants Careful to have.
 
@BESW Gotcha
 
Personally I find the strict "phase trio" character creation stuff to be a bit... stifling.
 
user61230
I did it once, and even among some of the most experienced roleplayers I know, it was very difficult to execute.
 
@BESW I think I need it to handle their interlinking... or at least gloss over "why do you guys know each other" and then come up with a couple of aspects.
 
8:15 AM
I suggest looking at Aeon Wave for that.
 
But now, since I'll edit their sheets, I can come up with a logical explanation why they know each other. They're just gonna have to roll with it so that we can get to the important part (for them): playing the game.
 
 
I like the semi-premade sheets. I think I'll take their current high aspect, and semi-prefill their new sheets, and give them some room to add things as they play.
 
I used the pre-made sheets for Doctor Who to give players the ability to play existing franchise characters they may not have actually seen in the show themselves, while giving them the freedom to make the characters their own.
It worked quite well, I think
For non-franchise characters, I'd probably only give three aspects and one stunt.
You absolutely don't need everything filled in on the sheet to play.
One of my current players took months to fill in his fifth aspect.
 
I was fine with the fact they had missing Aspects, since they at least had the High Concept and Trouble. The thing that bothered me was that they had no backstory. And not even that, it's that without anything worked out about their history together, they were just a bunch of people who - from the outside - looked like people who'd never cooperate. So why were they cooperating? We didn't even go over this...
 
8:27 AM
Yeah.
That's... troublesome, but pretty typical for people used to D&D-style "you meet in a bar" storytelling or TV shows that bring disparate folks together through the sheer force of plot.
RPGs like White Wolf's Mage and Vampire often make it the responsibility of the Storyteller (GM) to keep the PCs from killing each other--usually by having an exceptionally powerful NPC threaten to kill them all if they don't work together.
(I'm not too fond of this approach.)
 
user61230
This is a benefit of the FC character creation process.
 
@BESW Me neither.
 
user61230
It forces the players to come up with reasons they are together.
 
I think I'm going to drop the whole Harry Potter setting, to be honest. I'm personally not very up-to-date on it (I've never read the books and only saw the movies once, long ago).
And if I want these characters to work together or have some sort of synergy, I'm going to go the archaeology / Indiana Jones-esque route.
 
user61230
I've found that using prebuilt settings in Fate doesn't work as well as I'd hope it does.
 
8:33 AM
'struth.
 
user61230
Using settings as an inspiration definitely works, but using the raw settings themselves...
 
We can still be chased by an organisation, or still try to stop a cult, but I can personally avoid the magic involved with Harry Potter because I don't know anything about it.
 
My strongest campaign setting thus far has been "ALL the franchises where there's Weird Stuff going on in the modern world but the public doesn't know? Warehouse 13, X-files, Hellboy, Atomic Robo, Haven, Eureka, Indiana Jones? They're ALL probably true here. Go wild."
 
I guess the archaeologists have stumbled upon a powerful magical artifact?
 
user61230
Hmm. I also think that the magic from Harry Potter feels like a poor aesthetic fit for what the campaign is going for.
 
8:37 AM
Well, the campaign is going for "do we like Fate as a system or not?" :P
 
That may be the problem... From what I understand, fate as a system doesn't operate on the assumption that it is a system. Without a setting, it just falls apart.
 
Fate's a freeform roleplay support.
 
user61230
 
@Nyoze I know, we did work together on establishing the setting. But then we glossed over character creation to "just start playing", which is where everything fell apart.
 
It's a specialised implementation of FUDGE which has as much stated right in the name.
 
user61230
8:41 AM
Like everything in Fate, you need to declare what you're trying to do first, then figure out if it's the right (set of) mechanics to do the job.
 
@Emrakul That's one part I think we got right. But then they felt suddenly overwhelmed by "oh my god, RULES!"
 
^ which means you can't just play Fate, you need to have a story to tell that Fate would be a good support for.
 
user61230
@MarcDingena What I mean is, the intent "play a game in Fate" isn't one the game will respond well to.
 
8:54 AM
I can attest to that, having approached Fate in multiple different instances.
The games that went well were ones where we had some idea of a story that we wanted to tell together.
 
user61230
(This is why I'm a huge fan of the Microscope + Fate combination.)
 
The games where we had no story, or where we couldn't actually tell it together (such as a pair who liked sci-fi and fantasy respectively but disliked the other) didn't go so well.
 
@Emrakul I have pondered this combo, but I seem to have consistent problems with players who refuse to put their own time in it. Because they "don't know if they'll like it so reading up on rules and such can be wasted time".
 
Reading rules is more fun then playing though!
... Or is that just me? :(
 
I guess I just need to find players with a different mindset... I guess I'll never play RPGs :P seriously.... nobody in this area plays this stuff...
@Nyoze I agree!
 
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