TRPG General Chat

doppelgreener

12:16 AM

@BESW I'm wondering if buying a tag shows up for everyone, or just me.

BESW

I dunno.

doppelgreener

class?

I bought that one >:D

BESW

Nope.

doppelgreener

BESW

Best Wacky Reference of the Day and it's not even 10:30a yet.

"This woman gives up more often than Bizarre-O World Ricky Astley."

doppelgreener

12:45 AM

@BESW ... clever

Roll20 announces QuantumRoll, to make sure your random dice rolls are even more random.

BESW

1:05 AM

Hey, guys, do you think this could benefit from a bounty?

doppelgreener

1:44 AM

@BESW Not sure... a bounty could draw more attention to it, but i generally find here that if a question requiring knowledge or research doesn't have an answer, it's because nobody knows about that stuff

but, at your rep, you could just try it! :D

BESW

yeah, at this point I have no actual reason to keep the rep I'm getting.

doppelgreener

@BESW Did you run into @mcv yet about your builds?

I'm ashamed to admit I got the reference right away. By the way, do you have a link to that build by @BESW and @trogdor? — mcv 16 hours ago

BESW

No, I didn't get that ping.

doppelgreener

Well, naturally, but I replied saying he should look for you in chat and ask you himself.

BESW

Yeah, haven't seen him.

doppelgreener

1:46 AM

Okay.

@BESW THEY DO.

doppelgreener

2:58 AM

Someone created an autominer script.

in the spirit of useless digital currency i am using it

MC_Hambone

3:29 AM

GERONIMO!

@JonathanHobbs what is this autominer script you spake of?

doppelgreener

3:48 AM

12

A: What are Stack Overflow unicoins?

Here there's an autominer function UniMine() { $.getJSON('/unicoin/rock',function(data) { setTimeout(function(){ $.post('/unicoin/mine?rock='+data.rock,{fkey:StackExchange.options.user.fkey}); },10000); }); setTimeout(UniMine,11000); } UniMine();

Come 2015, I think I might celebrate April Fools Day on Fate Looms by changing all the fonts to Comic Sans.

BESW

@JonathanHobbs Or, for a more obscure joke, Futura Serie BQ-Book.

doppelgreener

@BESW That is very obscure!

The audience for that one would be American typography enthusiasts who enjoy Fate and play it online

xD

i'm not confident about that one

MC_Hambone

I am still confused as to what an autominer is... as I don't speak "programmer" XD

doppelgreener

@MC_Hambone what's the date there? and the time?

MC_Hambone

I put all my skill points into bard skill:guitar and fine art:illustration

1 min to midnight

march 31st

doppelgreener

3:59 AM

@MC_Hambone 1 minute until you understand what i mean

MC_Hambone

I guess the prank just went over my head then...

;)

doppelgreener

@MC_Hambone no, really, check the main site now ;)

MC_Hambone

no matter, I get the unicoin joke tho

...ok

@JonathanHobbs still looks the same?

anywaaaayyyy

what's everyone upto on this festival of trickery?

doppelgreener

@MC_Hambone check the sidebar?

MC_Hambone

oh that side bar

i have 75

I am richer than that screen cap!

BESW

4:07 AM

Spsh. I paid 50 imaginary moneys to get answers to all my questions, and nobody's telling me where I mislaid my glasses.

MC_Hambone

are they on your head?

BESW

...nope.

doppelgreener

@BESW I bought reputation with mine

MC_Hambone

BESW

Magician

4:10 AM

I'm waiting 'till I get home, where I have autoclicking macro on my mouse. Then we'll talk.

Alex P

Am I very important to everyone, or just myself?

Magician

@AlexP Considering the site looks the same to me, probably just to yourself.

Alex P

Alex P, Ashburn, VA

7.1k 1 21 52

MC_Hambone

all i notice is a discrepancy in your rep points

under your name in chat it says 23.6 K but on that link it says &.1K (tho that might be RPG.se specific and the higher for combine rep from the entire stack network)

BESW

Alex P, Ashburn, VA

15.6k 1 42 101

magic-the-gathering deck-building mtg-commander mtg-drafting mtg-manabase settlers-of-catan tournament

Board Games SE is his jam.

MC_Hambone

4:17 AM

i see

Alex P

@BESW It is so my jam.

MC_Hambone

I am lame and know nothing about anything, and most of my answers on here have only come from rigorous research

I used to know stuff about things and junk... but I am out of practice so I forogt everything I knew

Alex P

I'm reading the Circle of Hands draft document and it's not quite my bag, but it's very close to being my bag at times. Ron does a really good job explaining "Dark Ages" in places.

BESW

@MC_Hambone A lot of my rep comes from remembering things I, in hindsight, wish I'd never had to learn in the first place.

MC_Hambone

@BESW for RPG or other SE's?

BESW

4:23 AM

RPG.

Seven-ish years in D&D 3.5 leaves soul-deep scars.

Alex P

3.5 Anonymous time.

My name is Alex.

I dared to run a campaign that went above level 12.

BESW

Also intimate understanding of the system's astonishing variety of pitfalls disguised as clever subsystems.

@AlexP Ha! The second time I ever joined a game as a player instead of a GM, we started at level 30.

Magician

@AlexP Hi Alex. I ran a campaign that started at 15, and was supposed to go into epic. We didn't make it past 18. That's when I hit rock bottom.

Alex P

When you're selling your furniture for more point-buy points.

Circle of Hands has a few bits that make me roll my eyes so far, but this blurb captures something important about dark-ages historicity:

Magician

There are only so many times a man can make a save-or-die roll, before he looks at himself and admits: "I should be dead by now".

Alex P

4:28 AM

> The result is not a "rape is OK" culture, far from it. It's a constant fear, not an accepted norm – most people hate it at a knowledgeable, visceral level. That means that "unaccountable," above, can be overcome... Group action may well ensue, and as described above, not even gentry status helps against that. Even the most powerful person, who counters group retaliation with group action of his or her own, can expect a knife in the dark sooner or later.

BESW

My name is BESW. I hit rock bottom trying to devise encounters to accommodate a mailman hellfire warlock and a monk/initiate of the draconic mysteries on the same team.

MC_Hambone

Hi my name is Hambone and I hit rock bottom while reading the 3.5 core rules...

BESW

You're probably better off for it.

doppelgreener

Hi, my name is Jonathan. I've never managed to play more than about 4 sessions of D&D 3.5e and that was as a level 3 Barbarian. I have no regrets.

MC_Hambone

it's not a definite, but since I am desperate to actually play in rpgs and not always GM, i might play a short 3.5 campaign over summer break

doppelgreener

4:34 AM

actually I did kinda want my Barbarian to be given a third and/or fourth arm so he could dual wield greatswords, but he would've been going obsolete by the time we found people who could do that, in hindsight.

MC_Hambone

what are your guys' thoughts on having back stories for dungeons? I always get the feeling that these places needed to be built for a purpose, then I blank on what that purpose would be. I know some of these places would be abandoned and just being used as a home for bandits or something when players explore, but how much time should I spend writing info about the "birth" of a dungeon?

BESW

@MC_Hambone Seriously depends on the kind of game you're playing.

What's the purpose of the dungeon and why are the PCs in it?

MC_Hambone

open world sand boxy custom setting with 4e D&D rules for characters

BESW

If the dungeon has no purpose beyond being a justification for killing things and taking their stuff without getting arrested for murder and theft, the dungeon just needs enough substance to hold together.

[face/palm] sf&f.se meta is blowing up again on the topic of whether "just a dream" stories are on topic.

This is kinda cool. A brand-new user asks a question which gets answered by another brand-new user.

MC_Hambone

4:50 AM

@BESW so if my players just want to "go kill stuff" i shouldnt worry about backstory for the dungeon?

BESW

@MC_Hambone If it were me, I'd put together just enough that the dungeon makes sense.

But if there's no story reason to have a dungeon, you don't need a dungeon with a story.

MC_Hambone

this is a big reason i try to steer the players away from "dungeons"... i just have no idea what they are supposed to be used for. Though maybe I am getting hung on names. I have no problems back storying things like a minotaur labyrinth or crypts

BESW

"Dungeon" in the "Dungeons & Dragons" sense is a very broad term.

Mechanically, any moderately closed system of clear choices, where each choice leads to combat or trap encounters which provide material reward upon being defeated, is a dungeon.

Whether it's an orc-werecrocodile-infested sewer or a crashed spaceship or a supercompany industrial complex.

It's not a dungeon if the choices are unclear or seemingly limitless, or if the encounters the choices lead to are not mostly combat/traps.

So if you're wandering through a forest and you can go in any direction you want, then even if every direction leads to angry bears or fields of landmines, it's not really a dungeon.

MC_Hambone

so if you were to separate out the "dungeon" from all the other options in the catch-all term of dungeon in D&D... would we be talking about a prison specifically?

perhaps with torture rooms?

BESW

And if you're wandering through a sewer where the only choices are which direction you take at a crossroads, but instead of fighting werecrocodiles you're negotiating with the uplifted silverfish who want you to buy their hand-crafted furniture, that's not a dungeon either.

@MC_Hambone Well, this is where we crash into the difference between real life medieval stuff and fantasy medieval stuff.

To define "dungeon" outside of a D&D context, we have to figure out what context we do mean.

In 19th-century Persia, they had siyah-chals:

Síyáh-Chál

Síyáh-Chál ( literally "black pit") is the common word in Persian language for "dungeon". Historically, siyah-chals were used as a harsher form of incarceration. Typically, such dungeons had no windows or outlets, other than the entrance, consisting of a short stairway into the ground. In Bahá'í history the "Síyáh-Chál" refers to the dungeon south east of the palace of the Sháh and near the Sabzih-Maydán in Tehran where Bahá'u'lláh, founder of the Bahá'í Faith, was in captivity in 1852, together with about 30 other Bábí's if not more. He described his experiences in the Epistle to the So...

MC_Hambone

5:04 AM

so that wouldnt be a dungeon in D&D terms then right because it's just an open pit with no clear choices inside?

BESW

Right.

The famous Tower of London was, among other things, a prison for high-ranking inmates.

But you could easily bribe your way out of it; it was notoriously insecure for most of its time as a prison.

(Its reputation for torture was seriously over-exaggerated by enemies of the state, and later by novel-writers.)

MC_Hambone

is it possible that a massive complex filled with dead ends and traps would be built specifically to protect 1 magical artifact?

or maybe not possible, but likely?

BESW

Combine the Cretan Labyrinth and the Egyptian pyramid, and you get something like that.

Thing is, in a D&D setting it becomes increasingly silly and useless.

When people can fly and teleport and walk through walls, physical obstacles become more and more meaningless.

(This is that thing where D&D, in all its iterations and editions, is not meant to make sense. Don't stare at it too hard or it falls apart.)

MC_Hambone

if physical obstacles are so trivial why even have them?

@BESW just another thing where my campaign differs. I always stare at things too hard, and everything needs to make sense to me

BESW

@MC_Hambone Because they're fun, and because the GM tailors them to make sense as obstacles for the party, rather than for the world.

MC_Hambone

5:13 AM

it's like a compulsion that is a mild obsession of mine

BESW

D&D is a very close-up, stare-at-your-own-nose world where so long as you just think about what's happening right now it might make sense, but Luna Preserve You if you step back to look at the bigger picture.

@MC_Hambone Then you really need to find something other than D&D. Honestly.

MC_Hambone

@BESW is that just built into the system, or more built into the campaign settings?

BESW

D&D doesn't work that way. It wishes it could.

@MC_Hambone It's built into the system at a pretty fundamental level.

MC_Hambone

hmmmmmm maybe since the party is only level5 I just havent felt restricted by mechanics yet

BESW

The abilities and items that exist in the world should have drastic universe-spanning implications about very fundamental ways people live their lives.

My favourite example is the very low-level spells/rituals for preserving food to keep it from spoiling.

Like all features in D&D, these are designed with adventuring in mind, and nobody thought "What does this mean for Average Joe Farmer?"

GMNoob

5:17 AM

Oh, I love the Unicoins

if only I had faith that they would last past today..

MC_Hambone

i guess I also have the advantage that my players only stick to the class spells and skills, and rarely use rituals or cantrips etc

BESW

Because it means famine is a thing of the past. It means food preservatives, like salt and spices --which in our world caused the rise and fall of empires, the expansion of civilisation and the exchange of culture across continents-- don't matter in the D&D worlds.

The discovery of America came about because people wanted their rotting meat to taste better.

The ability to conjure substances with rituals destroys any normal kind of supply/demand economy as we know it.

GMNoob

You know, in our world, there are people who take private planes, and own their own islands. Does that mean that apartment complexes, and cars are not needed?

MC_Hambone

@GMNoob that's a good point, not everyone could have acess to these things in all parts of the world

GMNoob

Just because the super powerful can do something, doesn't mean it's out there for the world to make use of.

BESW

5:21 AM

@GMNoob That'd be a more reasonable comparison if the most fundamental world-altering features of D&D weren't available at such low levels.

MC_Hambone

not that i think it matters too much, but not everyone in my world is a "hero" most people don't have magic

BESW

Purify food and drink is a level 0 spell in 3.5. Every hamlet has a witch doctor who can cast it multiple times per day.

GMNoob

A low level adventurer is equivilent to a trillionaire's child, no?

MC_Hambone

@BESW not that I think you are refering to my dilemma specifically, but I am playing 4e, not 3.5

BESW

D&D 4e does a slightly better job at making these things less available to the common man.

@GMNoob That's another issue, and one which 4e does less to resolve: the economy itself is based on adventuring.

Objects and services are priced on how useful they are to adventurers.

GMNoob

5:24 AM

If warlords and important people in Africa are any indication, then just because somebody can do something easily, dosen't mean they are going to make it available to the masses.

MC_Hambone

to me if I had to make common townsfolk any level at all it would be level 1 with severre restrictions... like the clerics in the church would only have access to the general skills and maybe 1 or 2 healing spells

GMNoob

afair, in D&D townsfolk do not have any level.

BESW

@GMNoob Which edition? Because 3.5 dedicates entire sections to randomly generating the exact levels and classes of everyone everywhere.

MC_Hambone

exactly, hence in my world there is like 1 or 2 people in an entire town that can provide services that the party cant do on it's own, and it's usually brewing potions or enchanting gear, not that my players ever ask for such things while exploring towns

BESW

@MC_Hambone And here we run into another issue with examining D&D: does everyone have levels? In what? How?

GMNoob

5:26 AM

I don't think that's true.

MC_Hambone

isnt level 1 supposed to be slightly above average?

BESW

Because D&D is about fighting stuff, the king has to be a high level to justify why he hadn't been killed yet (Yes, this can be defied by an individual GM, but it is the norm in published materials) whether it makes sense for the fiction of the world or not.

MC_Hambone

like you might have some training. hence the emphasis in my sentences, I was implying that no one would have a level. most people would be level 0 minions

Alex P

To me, a D&D dungeon is primarily a tomb or somebody's ruined basement.

A purpose-built structure that may have lost its purpose a long time ago.

Think, like, Diablo.

MC_Hambone

@AlexP god i hated those games...

but i see your point ;)

BESW

5:29 AM

@MC_Hambone There is no such thing as "level 0" in D&D 4e, unless you look at one very unusual PC-specific set of rules in one of the magazines.

Alex P

Alternatively, you can think "donjon."

Which is a keep.

BESW

Not in D&D 3.5 either; they invented fractional levels!

GMNoob

13

Q: Why use NPC classes for NPCs?

I am a fairly novice game master, but something I've never really understood NPC classes. As far as I understand them, they are noticeably weaker versions of PC classes (e.g. the NPC warrior in 3.5 does not get the bonus feats of a fighter). As a GM, I want to put the PC's up against powerful, ex...

dnd-3.5e pathfinder dnd-3e

originally, kings were between levels 1-3

BESW

The closest to "level 0" you can get is "I didn't give him stats because I didn't expect him to get into fights."

MC_Hambone

@BESW thats my point. if the PCs are supposed to be adventuring heroes, then commoners wouldnt be as tough or as trained, hence being "level 0"... which might be a confusing term since they would never have the chance to advance to levl 1

BESW

5:30 AM

@GMNoob In editions where the level discrepancy was much less significant.

@MC_Hambone Here's the thing; in 4e you don't stat up non-combatants.

When you do stat up NPCs, it's because you want them to be in combat (as 4e is a tactical combat simulator first and foremost and almost only), and NPCs are inherently inferior to PCs already.

NPCs only get one healing surge per tier, for example.

MC_Hambone

@BESW not officially but everyone would technically have a AC of 10... since that is the Base AC for someone wearing cloth armor (which is usually described as normal clothes)

GMNoob

sorry, wrong link: rpg.stackexchange.com/a/8346/2064

BESW

In 4e, there are very major differences between PCs and NPCs, mechanically, which are all about making combat fun and not at all about realistic anything. But they do serve to highlight the difference between the main characters and everyone else.

MC_Hambone

@BESW bahh! not every NPC even deserves that! Farmer John out in the feilds isnt going to have a healing surge in order to heal himself from a random wild boar attack

BESW

@MC_Hambone Don't forget that healing surges aren't just about mending actual wounds. HP is a weird arbitrary abstraction of injury, exhaustion, demoralisation...

Once per day Farmer John can rally himself and push forward.

MC_Hambone

5:35 AM

hmmm i always thought it (hp) was a measure of physical wounds

GMNoob

bloodied is "first blood"

MC_Hambone

even psychic attacks, i assumed just ruptured blood vessles in the brain

BESW

> Hit points (hp) measure your ability to stand up to punishment, turn deadly strikes into glancing blows, and stay on your feet throughout a battle. Hit points represent more than physical endurance. They represent your character’s skill, luck, and resolve—all the factors that combine to help you stay alive in a combat situation. (4e PHB1 293)

MC_Hambone

learn something new every day

:D

BESW

That's why it makes sense for a warlord to let you spend a healing surge by shouting at you.

(And why everyone can use Second Wind once per combat; though because NPCs only have one healing surge, they can only use it once per day.)

MC_Hambone

5:37 AM

@BESW again i just assumed it was magic

BESW

D&D 4e is pretty wuxia about their "martial" power source.

MC_Hambone

at any rate, I know now moving forward that HP is more than physical damage... though its odd they chose to roll all that into one number, imo

GMNoob

if you want your hp to be physical it will be. If you don't want it to be, it won't be.

one game, a single arrow will puncture a person and they will fight on, and then remove their arrows from the body. At another game, those arrows will wizz by, causing fear, and a loss of moral, and it takes hours to find them.

BESW

@MC_Hambone RPGs are all about abstraction and choosing where to wave your hands.

GMNoob

both the same roll, and amount of damage done.

MC_Hambone

5:40 AM

but I have a question leading back to something we touched on earlier... should I be encouraging the players to use rituals, get their equipment enchanted, or just generally go shopping in towns for magic items and potions?

BESW

HP is a legacy from the war games that D&D grew out of, where you were following the actions of entire regiments instead of individuals.

At that level, hp made a lot of sense as an abstraction of "the endurance of our troops."

Since then, RPGs have been exploring lots of alternatives but D&D is pretty much happy to stick with its HP structure, trading simplicity for some detail and consistency.

MC_Hambone

i figure, those that have rituals at char. gen. know they have them and should use them if they want, I also assume those that don't notices that the Ritual Caster feat is available to them (if they qualify) and when I introduce a town or villiage i always describe interesting shops they (or at least I as a player) might like to explore

GMNoob

encourage both :) let them decide which they like better

BESW

@MC_Hambone If presented as a "will this throw off the game balance" question, that'd probably be a good one for the site.

Generally you only need one person with Ritual Casting in a group, but it's a good idea to have at least one.

But if they don't want to, scrolls can substitute just fine.

MC_Hambone

@BESW not really directed toward balance issues, no... just more like "they never seem to explore the towns" should I remind them that there is more to the game than just dungeon crawling, or exploring plot devices i set in front of them? I am not thinking it would take a long time, but say they have 10,000 gold and want a specific magic item, my players might tell me they want a sword of [description] and then expect me to throw it in a dungeon.

BESW

5:46 AM

Talk with them about what they want.

MC_Hambone

I would rather have them search for that in a shop or someting since it might not always be relevant to find that item in a dungeon or on an adventure

BESW

They might think that buying things means spending three hours of RPG haggling with shopkeepers, and so avoid it.

MC_Hambone

@BESW scroll would be useless, since they wouldnt use them anyway

@BESW perhaps, but I honestly think that they just dont realize that those are real options open to them... I guess I could work in a "carnival barker" npc that tries to attract them to stores, maybe?

BESW

That could be fun.

MC_Hambone

I mean they dont even use the potions I gave them. They have had 3 health potions since like level 2, some players have come with in 3 HP of needing to roll death saving throws, and potions have not been used... I just dont think these guys are going to use the options that arent spelled out on their sheets as class options. so I guess that could be a question about balance issues

I just vaguely remember something in the DMG about how you are to "give" them X amount of magic items every 5 levels and that the gold is intended for things like enchanting things, buying potions, scrolls, magic items, etc

BESW

5:52 AM

"Hey, guys, I've noticed that you're not using consumables and cash the way the system expects. That's fine, but it means I should be dropping loot in ways that match how you want to use it. Before I stop dropping consumables and cash in preference of only permanent magic items, though, I'd like to ask a favour: you'll get asked to visit a shop today, and I'd like you to play along for a while to see if maybe there's something you like that you're missing out on."

MC_Hambone

and after the conversation yesterday about not "punishing" players I am a bit timid to with hold magic items from them if they neglect spending their loot

BESW

Put it out on the table: you give them gold because the game expects them to spend it. If they aren't spending the gold, then you aren't giving them what they need. Either they spend the gold, or you drop other stuff instead of gold.

MC_Hambone

and that goes back to the original question about background for the dungeon, if they dont find magic item X on a dead villian, and it is hidden in the dungeon, why is it here? was the dungeon built to house this item? did somebody hide it there after a few hundred years?

BESW

If the dungeon is just an excuse for the combat, it needs no real reason.

MC_Hambone

Sometimes I wish I could just accept things on faith, or just not need to explain everything with logic :P

BESW

5:57 AM

Here's why: because the PCs needed it.

MC_Hambone

@BESW for my group it seems like everything is just an excuse for combat

GMNoob

In all my games, "shopping" has always been done "away from the table"

BESW

The needs of the PCs are the logic for everything when you get down to it.

GMNoob

In my experience, games are more fun when the players can see reasons for things, even if they don't interact with those reasons.

BESW

That's been my general experience too, but I know some who don't like getting reason in their hack and slash.

MC_Hambone

6:00 AM

@GMNoob true, and I could try mentioning this. I just dont feel like my players are as involved as I'd like them to be... Like i use the D&D Insider character generator to make their character sheets, and to speed things along I asked the new players what they wanted to be, what they wanted to focus on combat wise, and then i made the characters

GMNoob

Ah! That's a different issue!

MC_Hambone

then i gave them the options to one by one after the games over the course of a few weeks (or on a seperate day) to review the other options available to them

BESW

And even the most logix-loving players are willing to turn a blind eye in the name of "it's more fun this way."

MC_Hambone

the response i got from most people was "you can just continue to choose spells for me"

GMNoob

It's a fact of life, that people appreciate things more, if they worked for them than if they get them for free

How long have you been playing with these charachters?

MC_Hambone

6:02 AM

so to me I dont think shopping during the week will work

since about january

BESW

That makes me feel even more like D&D of any edition is a poor fit for you and your group.

GMNoob

once a week?

MC_Hambone

so with breaks and what not maybe 8 sessions

BESW

The character creation/advancement minigame is a major part of the system.

GMNoob

I would suggest saying that "practice is over". And now it's time they all make their own characters.
If not, switch to a levelless system.

MC_Hambone

6:04 AM

I think I should force them to at least, moving forward, choose their new moves. I gave them the option to re work their character if wanted, that they can refuse to do if i got the feel right... but I dont feel comfortable picking ALL the moves for all but 3 people (in a 7-9 player game)

BESW

That's an unfair amount of work for you no matter what way it's sliced.

GMNoob

You should force them to make their own charachters, so they can feel real ownership and attachment to them.

maybe spend of session of just making charachters.

And only be willing to answer questions about what they read, but not give them advice.

MC_Hambone

that would require too much time investment for everyone involved. as most people dont even have the basic PHB

GMNoob

Are they having fun?

MC_Hambone

since I dont live near everyone, enough for them to walk to my house, and we play game on campus, it would be too much of a time sink to get everyon to make characters... with only one DDI account we can only make 1 character at a time, and since it compiles all the possibilities ever released, it can get time consuming to make a character

BESW

6:08 AM

And are you having fun?

MC_Hambone

yes and yes

the problesm i see, are not un fixable, and it's not a real hang up, I am just trying to optimize the playing of the game so they players know they have more resources available to them than just what is on their sheet

[sigh] I guess I need to man up and be confrontational with them, sit them down and have a calm discussion about what they are missing and what the game inteneds them to be doing with all that gold

BESW

4e is resource-intensive. It takes non-trivial time and energy and focus to learn and master it, to create and advance characters, and to become familiar enough with the rules and characters to make at-table decisions quickly and intelligently.

MC_Hambone

interestingly enough the part that sucks the fun out of playing for me, is just that, having to be a "parent"

BESW

And if anyone at the table doesn't want to put in the resources to do that, someone else is going to have to pick up the slack.

Rather than deal with that, since it sounds like there's a general consensus most of the participants can't do it whether they want to or not, you might suggest a less resource-intensive system.

GMNoob

I had to stop playing 4e cause 2 of the 3 players, were asking me to tell them which attacks to use :P

MC_Hambone

6:12 AM

I dont mind picking moves for them, by @GMNoob has a point, I dont feel like if i do that, that the characters are truely their characters

BESW

"Hey, we've accidentally chosen a system that needs more energy than all of us are able to put into it. How about we try <other system> and see if it lets us feel more attached to what we're doing?"

GMNoob

I wish I could suggest WFRP :P

Alex P

Dungeon World is a much better system for "Just tell me what I need to roll" type play, as long as the players aren't afraid to, like, say stuff.

MC_Hambone

@BESW i really dont like that idea, so far D&D is the game that most closely resembles the kind of game we all want to play, there are just a few hiccups... mostly players brand new to RPGs (and 1 specifically that is the girlfriend of a player who i suspect is there for him and not the game)

GMNoob

because my wife hates making charachters, but likes the WFRP advancement for some reason.

MC_Hambone

6:14 AM

@AlexP say stuff how, like in character?

BESW

@MC_Hambone You can easily play D&D-like games without using an actual D&D system.

GMNoob

But, we play wfrp with out of print, books/modules. So I don't know what the modern stuff is like

Alex P

@MC_Hambone The basic mechanics are "You narrate a thing happening, and then sometimes it triggers a roll." So if I say "I duck behind the rocks to get out of the dragon's breath," that's a roll.

Or if I say "If I'm a wizard, do I know stuff about these ruins?" that's a roll.

It's fairly lightweight from the player's perspective.

The catch is that it's not very, erm, straight-up mechanical.

MC_Hambone

thats pretty much all they do now

Alex P

Fictional stuff really matters.

BESW

6:16 AM

@MC_Hambone The player says, "I grab the chandelier and swing across the ball room, dropping burning candles on the evil duke." And the GM does the mechanics and asks for rolls as needed.

MC_Hambone

from what i have seen they do not think that far outside the box

Alex P

It's pretty light from the GM's perspective, too, really.

BESW

Or you could play Roll For Shoes, which demands that everyone invent their PCs as they go.

GMNoob

Sounds to me like they want options, but not to decide what those options are.

Maybe you can switch to DnD Next, because I feel it has that style of play as a nice built in system

Where you make everything a "check"

MC_Hambone

atthink i need to stay with 4e at least until the end of the semester, then half of the group will go away for the summer and then I can force the new group to try out different systems that might prove better for the game moving forward

GMNoob

6:19 AM

And then you won't feel bad about not doing DnD :P and you can use the same basic charachters

MC_Hambone

@GMNoob almost, not all of our characters are available in the most recent (and final) play test packet

namely the psion

or maybe even the sorcerer... tho that i'd have to double check

GMNoob

Cheat, and port it over :P

doppelgreener

@MC_Hambone this was linked in chat just the other week: Dungeons of Fate

It's up to you if you want to use Fate or something else, but, kapow, a thing explicitly about dungeon crawling and fighting that is not D&D

oh and Alex has mentioned Dungeon World. Woo!

Basically when it comes down to it: there are games that do D&D's thing better than D&D does its thing.

And which one you pick depends on what part of D&D's thing you'd like to do.

GMNoob

" In Dungeon World NPCs and monsters don't even get a turn."
Ok, that just blew my mind...

Alex P

Nobody gets a turn. It's just a conversation. :D

MC_Hambone

6:25 AM

I already don't like Dungeons of Fate as it says it is for 1 shots and short campaigns

doppelgreener

@GMNoob Yeah that had a similar effect on me, haha.

But it looks like it'd work well and I would really like to play it.

MC_Hambone

I have my players by the balls and wont let them go for the next four years! Muahahahaha

welll, the freshmen anyway.... lol

GMNoob

Actually MC, chances are the full version of Next will be out in August :P

MC_Hambone

but even the premier release of the system wont have all the class and junk... there are like 3 PHBs for 4e, and even then they dont contain all the classes available

BESW

Speaking of D&D Next, I think someone found a bit of dried-on copypasta.

GMNoob

6:28 AM

@JonathanHobbs I read the pdf, I don't get how players get hurt by monsters...

@MC_Hambone My understanding is that Next will not be released that way.

MC_Hambone

we can only hope

BESW

Incremental splat is kinda the centrepiece of Wizards' economic model, so I'd be interested in seeing what they come up with instead.

GMNoob

They have made a big deal out of Next being fully formed with the first book. The additional books adding settings and campaign material

And those additional books, will be DnD version agnostic, so it will work with any version of DnD you like to play.

BESW

"Fully formed." 3.5 and 4e were "fully formed" too; adding new options later doesn't mean it wasn't a fully formed and functional game to begin with.

GMNoob

Though they did talk about new setting books, also providing new "subclass" options for the existing classes

BESW

6:33 AM

Poorly play-tested in many cases, but on current evidence that's not a trend Next will be bucking either.

doppelgreener

voting unicorn approves

BESW

@JonathanHobbs I love thumbs-up unicorn.

doppelgreener

@BESW I like him and kiss unicorn

and I like how there is a unicorn that shakes its head when I downvote, but I don't know if it's shaking its head at the answer for being bad, or shaking its head at me for downvoting!

GMNoob

The example given, is that they might release a book about "pirate adventures". And in that book they will give information about a "water ranger", or a "swashbuckler fighter". But the original list of classes will not be added to.

doppelgreener

WHO IS IT JUDGING!?

BESW

6:36 AM

@JonathanHobbs Kiss unicorn can't be hygienic. I'm afraid he'll catch something from a bad question.

(Also, unicorn slobber everywhere.)

GMNoob

did anyone buy "guaranteed answer"?

doppelgreener

@BESW Did the Dungeons of Fate PDF change for you? It's only 4 pages for me suddenly!!

The other 8 are gone. D:

GMNoob

Oh, I only see 4 pages also

BESW

@JonathanHobbs Yes.

Except my saved pdf has 11, not 12.

doppelgreener

Close enough!

@GMNoob The players get hurt by the GM saying: "Orcus is going to attack you for 8."

And the player defends.

Or the players.

That's a challenge; alternately a challenge might open up in which the player has an opportunity to attack.

BESW

6:40 AM

It looks like they carved out all the "How FAE Works" bits and just assume you know that already.

doppelgreener

But all the pages talking about that seem to be gone.

BESW

So now it's just the "How Dungeons of Fate is different from FAE."

GMNoob

well thats less fun

BESW

[shrug] I may start using it myself in my regular Fate games.

Metool

hmmm, what tag am I good with?

MC_Hambone

6:45 AM

i am sad, I tried buying unicoins with twitter followers but thats not available yet

GMNoob

can't buy it with stack overflow rep either

where is my bobblhead?

BESW

@GMNoob Scroll down on a page with avatars.

doppelgreener

@GMNoob I honestly don't find it less fun than having to slow down the game every time I want a monster to fight something.

GMNoob

oh, I thought it was the judging unicorn... oh well

doppelgreener

Never rolling for monsters and having the monsters' actions be all about the players keeps the focus of attention on the players and what they're doing, which for me would be more fun.

GMNoob

6:53 AM

@JonathanHobbs I meant the fact that they removed the FAE content makes the pdf less fun, since I don't know FAE at all.

doppelgreener

@GMNoob Oh! Well, you could get the FAE PDF for free.

BESW

Or read it on the srd.

doppelgreener

That too!

GMNoob

is it less than 10 pages? :P

If the GM says "Orcus attacks with a challenge of 8" how is that "the monsters don't have a turn"?

doppelgreener

@GMNoob In PDF form? No, it's probably at least a couple of dozen pages padded with a lot of examples and illustrations.

(pretty dang helpful examples too)

BESW

6:55 AM

@GMNoob I think you may be confusing things people said about Dungeon World with what they said about Dungeons of Fate.

MC_Hambone

i'm off for a stretch, gonna work on a few projects, cya guys later

GMNoob

@BESW Very possible!

doppelgreener

Oh right. Yeah:

GMNoob

@BESW Dungeon world is not FAE based?

doppelgreener

> Why do GMs Not Roll for NPCs? I actually got the idea of total passive opposition from Numenera and Dungeon World. In these systems, the GM doesn't roll for NPC checks. In Dungeon World NPCs and monsters don't even get a turn. Total passive opposition moves all of the excitement and interest into the roll performed by the player.

BESW

6:57 AM

@GMNoob Dungeon World is a different system entirely.

Metool

[yawn]

BESW

Dungeons of Fate is a Dungeon-World-inspired FAE hack.

Metool

That was a fun session of Bunkers & Badasses.

I think I'll be headed to sleep now.

Inbar Rose

Good Morning.

Metool

Huh, 28 days consecutive visits.

GMNoob

7:06 AM

@JonathanHobbs Ok just read some examples. So monsters get reactions but not full turns, not bad.

lisardggY

7:19 AM

Guten morgen.

doppelgreener

@GMNoob In Dungeons of Fate or Dungeon World?

BESW

7:31 AM

@JonathanHobbs Dungeon World, as I understand it.

GMNoob

@JonathanHobbs dungeon world

doppelgreener

aha ok

GMNoob

7:50 AM

Thanks to this question, I can now buy all the unicoin upgrades :)
http://stackoverflow.com/questions/22778033/how-to-earn-more-unicorn-coins-all-methods-are-refused-april-fool-p?rq=1

lisardggY

8:10 AM

@GMNoob I can't decide if this is serious or not meta.history.stackexchange.com/questions/886/…

The Oracle

0

Q: What answer does the gauranteed answer provide?

For april 1st and the Unicoin. What answer is guaranteed? I purchased it and I am curious.

discussion

GMNoob

@lisardggY Somebody needs to give him a response of "Maybe it's not as bad as you think. Sleep on it for 24 hours, and then let us know what you think after that time."

or something similar

Magician

8:32 AM

"New unicoin item: Because unicorns - "Closed because unicorns" is the only valid close reason."

3

BESW

9:18 AM

Since that person's highest voted meta Q is "Should I resign from this site?"....

Magician

"put on hold because unicorns by Phil, wax eagle, BESW, Brian Ballsun-Stanton♦ 8 hours ago"

Unicoins well spent

doppelgreener