TRPG General Chat

wax eagle

8:00 PM

@Problematic yes. but it's been a bit over a year

Phil

new elections coming up?

wax eagle

@Phil meta first, then email the community team

SevenSidedDie

@Phil I think elections only add moderators, not replace them.

wax eagle

@Phil not sure. They've moved from an annual thing to a "mods have to say halp!" thing

Phil

@SevenSidedDie what email address?

wax eagle

8:01 PM

@SevenSidedDie this is correct

SevenSidedDie

@Lord_Gareth I didn't see the comments in question, but I can imagine.

Phil

so if a moderator deletes comments, there is no record of them at all? That seems odd

SevenSidedDie

@Phil Sorry? Email address?

Lord_Gareth

But the trouble I've run into is that reporting mods is difficult or impossible unless I have the time (I don't) and the commitment (I don't) to engage in near-pathological stalking of the mod in question and record every infraction.

So despite the bit where Myx is an open problem, nothing gets done because nothing gets proven.

wax eagle

@Phil not correct. mods have access to them.

Lord_Gareth

8:02 PM

And in the meantime he's snarky and aggressive in comments and downright insulting and inflammatory in chat.

Phil

@SevenSidedDie Sorry, that was supposed to be directed to Wax Eagle

SevenSidedDie

@Phil Comments are deliberately second-class citizens. Their impermanence has downsides, but there is the upside that it means people sorta avoid feeling protective about them, or putting valuable stuff in them.

Phil

@waxeagle What email address is that?

wax eagle

@Phil use the contact us link on the bottom of any page. Specifically the "other" item. The community team reads that.

Phil

@waxeagle Heh, never even noticed that was there

SevenSidedDie

8:04 PM

@Lord_Gareth The two defences I have for mxyzplk is: 1) it takes a variety of people of different persuasions to have an effective mod team; his acerbic approach goes hand-in-hand with why he's such a diligent janitor. 2) He's only human. I don't want a mod diamond because I'm too belligerent to be a good one, and he's better'n me at it.

Better at reigning in the belligerence, I mean. I'm not surprised when he slips sometimes.

Lord_Gareth

I don't accept that second one. This behavior happens constantly. If he can't hack it the power should be set down. The Stack is a very specific kind of community that emphasizes courtesy and politeness.

SevenSidedDie

@Lord_Gareth It's true, but self-moderation is beyond what anyone expects. On his own question, you're engaging with the user, not the mod. If there is an error here, it was using mod-powers to deal with the resulting comments. That should be left to a fellow mod, much like a councillor has to recuse themselves when a city council vote touches on their property.

wax eagle

@SevenSidedDie and tbh you don't know who cleaned up the comments. That's not public information cc @Lord_Gareth

Lord_Gareth

On the one hand, that's true. On the other hand, the pattern of selective deletion is a little hard to deny.

wax eagle

most mods don't touch stuff like that on their own posts or when they are involved. Conflict of interest an all that.

SevenSidedDie

8:09 PM

@waxeagle That's true. But my bet is on mxyzplk, because he's kinda the self-appointed comments mod. It's easy to mix up your role as answerer and role as comment-moderator, and I wouldn't be surprised if he did.

wax eagle

@Lord_Gareth if you feel like it exists, take it to meta and let him respond long form. Or if you're not comfortable with that then contact hte community team. If he is deleting argumentative comments on his own post I'd be concerned about that.

Phil

^ what I was about to say

SevenSidedDie

Hell, I'm a high-rep user, and mxyzplk has been the strongest hand slapping me down when I misbehave. If only for people like me, we need a mod like him. ;)

That said, yeah, wax eagle's got the right of it.

wax eagle

@SevenSidedDie we definitely need someone willing to stand up to those of us with a lot of rep here, but at the same time, judgement is required and a lack of that is concerning (and again, we can't tell who acted here).

Lord_Gareth

Is there a way to bring this to meta that doesn't make it look like I'm petulantly starting a fight?

SevenSidedDie

8:12 PM

@waxeagle Yes. I don't think (if it happened that way) it's a hanging offense, but even small abuses of mod power need to be addressed.

wax eagle

@Lord_Gareth I think if you check your tone, be nice and try to make sure you're taking the high path you should be OK. This kind of meta discussion can be constructive, but it does take work.

SevenSidedDie

@Lord_Gareth Point to us here who advised you to take it there, as the most appropriate forum. And be unfailingly inoffensive in the text. The second is optional, but is good for not looking like you're picking a fight. :)

High road, yeah. That's the phrasing I was looking for.

Just don't take the high road with the idea that it means he must take the low, because that comes through between the lines. Start charitably, assuming he's acting in good faith. It's very hard to accept blame when the accusation is broader than what one feels one is actually guilty of.

wax eagle

@SevenSidedDie too true. And if you're nice and polite and he is not, then you have something to take to the community team.

SevenSidedDie

@waxeagle True. Again, just so long as it's not a result of badger baiting. That won't get sympathy from the oversight team – just like I got none this morning when I was belligerent and offensive, though I was right in the facts.

wax eagle

@SevenSidedDie yes. To be honest this morning was one botch after another. A bunch of people rolled 1s.

SevenSidedDie

8:19 PM

@waxeagle I aced my perception check and botched my willpower check hard.

Phil

lol

couldn't have put it better :o)

SevenSidedDie

I probably would have lost it entirely if I kept reminding myself that the mod tools would show the truth, whatever it was. It sucks feeling like one of the few shields against a malevolent invader.

wax eagle

@SevenSidedDie just gotta know when to walk away next time. flag it and move on. The mods can sort through the bodies.

SevenSidedDie

So there's some advice, @Lord_Gareth: trust in the oversight team, and state your case as simply as you can. Embellishments and emotional appeals will just get in the way and lay a foundation for argument over things that aren't the core facts.

wax eagle

(and it's a lot easier when they don't have us getting up to our ears in it :))

SevenSidedDie

8:23 PM

@waxeagle I know. It's really hard to turn off reflexes that made sense elsewhere though, since this was the first I've seen a practiced puppeter on SE. Next time I'll have this to remember.

wax eagle

remember that as moderators we're responsible both to our communities and the community team (SE staff members charged with overseeing the sites). Generally the community team has our backs (as they should), but they'll slap us down when we're wrong too.

@SevenSidedDie yeah if you know they're a puppet, just flag an account pointing at the other. Mods have the right tools to get pretty darn sure.

SevenSidedDie

@waxeagle Yeah. On Wikipedia there's a whole trial process before devs are allowed to do a sock check, so it's also important to fight them directly in the articles. Here it's much easier, yeah.

(There's a reason I don't mod there anymore. Exhausting.)

Phil

I find the new user experience meta question and discussion interesting. My natural tendency when I see a question that is poorly worded is to vote it down whatever the current tally is, but that discussion is making me wonder whether that's the right approach.

SevenSidedDie

@Phil That's part of my motive for editing so much. There are some good answers buried in poor articulations.

wax eagle

@Phil it is. That discussion is at best misguided

I've been thinking on a fuller answer instead of just linking, but downvoting is an important part of the ecosystem here.

Phil

8:29 PM

@SevenSidedDie trouble is, there are numerous times where I can tell a question is really poor, but don't know enough about the system/background/whatever the question is about to be able to accurately edit it. In those circumstances I can't see any option but to mark it down and leave a comment

SevenSidedDie

@Phil I end up running into that situation a lot in the 4e tag. It's ultimately a personal decision how to handle votes; personally, I just let the ones I know are bad but don't quite know why pass by. Letting a question languish with no upvotes is sometimes good enough.

wax eagle

might be time to link: blog.stackoverflow.com/2011/06/optimizing-for-pearls-not-sand

Phil

@SevenSidedDie but then again and again I see users who really should know better answer such poorly thought through questions. It really is incredibly frustrating.

SevenSidedDie

@waxeagle I sympathise with Randall, but at the same time I think it's a big misguided. I respect him, what with all he's written online and in print about productive communication, but I think this is a point where there can be no compromise for user experience.

wax eagle

@SevenSidedDie yup

Phil

8:35 PM

@SevenSidedDie I do get the sense he's coming at it from the wrong angle

SevenSidedDie

@Phil I think he's coming at it from an angle he is very good at using, but it's an angle that there is no room for when it comes to SE voting.

Phil

@SevenSidedDie that's exactly what I mean

SevenSidedDie

Right, I see what you mean.

Oh wow, our puppettroll weighed in on that meta discussion.

wax eagle

oh by the way. This week, look for kinder, gentler, close reasons should be popping up any day now.

first five days of closure will now indicate a question is "on hold"

and we're going to be able to choose some custom Off Topic reasons.

Phil

interesting

wax eagle

8:38 PM

157

Q: Closing changes: [on hold], unclear, too broad, opinion-based, off-topic reasons, bye-bye to Too Localized

After a ton of discussion, work and input from the community, we're rolling out the remainder of major closing changes that you've helped us design, as discussed in these prior posts. They're live on Meta today, and will likely roll out to the rest of the network sometime next week. The clos...

Phil

veeeeeeeery interesting

wax eagle

@Phil really and truly, the mechanical side of that discussion belongs on MSO (where it will be summarily executed). Having it here to change anything but community behavior is irrelephant.

Phil

so shouldn't the question be closed by a mod with an appropriate comment then?

SevenSidedDie

@waxeagle I'm looking forward to that. I'm surprised the meta I posted about it got no response.

wax eagle

@SevenSidedDie where?

SevenSidedDie

8:43 PM

@Phil It does no harm to leave it open, since meta is a different animal than the main site. If we had a huge volume of meta activity like MSO, maybe, but we don't.

@waxeagle It's seventh down the active list right now.

4

Q: What custom off-topic close reasons should we have?

Custom "off topic" close votes are coming to RPG.SE soon: Closing changes: [on hold], unclear, too broad, opinion-based, off-topic reasons, bye-bye to Too Localized As part of these changes we will be able to enter freeform comments when voting to close as "off topic". For convenience, we wi...

discussion close-reasons

Phil

@SevenSidedDie fair enough. I'm not really up to speed enough with meta and the parent site type stuff to really understand all the differentiation etc.

wax eagle

@SevenSidedDie well mxy's misguided comment didn't help

Phil

@SevenSidedDie That's odd. I regularly look at meta but didn't even see that question until you just pointed it out

SevenSidedDie

@Phil I know! I posted it and it was like a ghost. I was starting to wonder if there was a glitch and only I could see it. :)

@waxeagle Odd. I didn't get notice of his comment. Or I just missed it.

wax eagle

9:13 PM

@SevenSidedDie notifications are finicky sometimes. I can usually attribute it to being logged in in multiple places.

SevenSidedDie

@waxeagle That's probably what did it. I was SEing on more than one computer last weekend.

That is a great Stack blog article, by the way. I was certain I'd already read it, but apparently now.

wax eagle

@SevenSidedDie yeah. That's one of the classics. Jeff has written a lot of great stuff (some of it I don't agree with).

it's one of the best explanations of the "we want good questions, everything else be damned" mentality that makes SE what it is.

Lord_Gareth

9:41 PM

Ahem

I GOT ZE JOB

Oblivious Sage

congrats!

Problematic

10:03 PM

@Lord_Gareth Ooh! Which job?

wraith808

10:27 PM

@Lord_Gareth Maybe I'm missing it, but what is the flamebaiting in the response? And do you have any instances of him abusing the mod powers? I haven't ever noticed that. He's a bit blunt at times, but I don't find anything wrong with that- possibly because I find myself the same way at times.

@Lord_Gareth I'd also disagree that the mod emphasizes courtesy and politeness in all situations. It's a nice thing to have... but I've seen several example answers from the meta for the whole of SE that directly contradicts this.