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Hamlet
Hamlet
12:05 AM
@Randal'Thor no, it wasn't that.
@Randal'Thor I don't really know.
IDK. It's just frustrating that when I suggest that we need to do more research and learn new skills, I get accused of being elitist.
In my mind, being elitist is thinking you can walk in on complicated issues and become an expert/write expert level content without doing reading or thinking.
Obviously, not everyone needs to do research. But if no one does research, then this site has a problem.
IDK. I feel like between BESW and I, there's an undergraduate degree in lit worth of material in this chat room alone.
Don't get me wrong: unlike at the private beta, this site is at a point where it is making the internet a better place. But... you can go backwards or forwards from here.
This has nothing to do with why I left. I left because I had less time for the site but I wasn't able to make myself reduce the time I spent on the site.
But if you want to give me a sending off... I don't want or need a meta post. I doubt I would appreciate a meta post. I want and would appreciate leadership.
I'm starting to think Yannis has a point about all the meta posts. People think the issues facing this site are about policy. But most of the issues this site faces--a lack of a clear scope being a perfect example of this--stem from a lack of research/understanding of our subject matter.
 
doppelgreener
doppelgreener
12:32 AM
Speaking of which I did actually think of a question to ask about aboriginal storytelling and might have others.
 
Shog9
Shog9
@Hamlet that's the same issue that faces nearly every site: folks think they can make it good by making enough rules about not tolerating crap. But even if enforced (which they aren't) that doesn't make a place good - it just limits how quickly it can become intolerably bad.
You need folks being... well, useful.
Not necessarily writing masterbatory essays to demonstrate their own knowledge... But definitely using that knowledge to ask and answer questions in a way that improves the sum of knowledge accessible to the world, and ideally doing the research necessary to increase their knowledge when it is insufficient to achieve the former.
The difference between being elitist and simply having standards is whether you base your criteria on what is useful to others or what is novel - entertaining - to you.
 
 
2 hours later…
Bookworm
Bookworm
2:33 AM
0
Q: What does it mean when we say that a poem is 'effective'?

A. BrownAre we talking about the tone, mood, ideas or argument conveyed in the poem?

poetry
 
 
1 hour later…
Hamlet
Hamlet
3:48 AM
@Shog9 one problem is that when it comes to most questions here, the kind of research required is very different than for other topics.
Lit as a field involves more than facts; it involves a lot of questions about methods and how to make an argument
Close reading being one obvious example of this.
 
 
4 hours later…
BESW
BESW
7:34 AM
The Stack's basic "Back it up!" principle should, in theory, be sufficient for lit.se as well.
Unfortunately, in my experience a significant number of Stack users are members of that part of the wider population which has not been trained in the difference between assertion and support.
This means most attempts to ask that support be added to an answer are interpreted as a challenge to the user's expertise, and that creates a defensive attitude which opposes the support-based culture underlying the best Stack content.
I've seen it on multiple Stacks, where opinion-based subjects are considered either free-for-all open game for unsupported speculation, or are considered impossible to answer within the Stack structure.
Literature can't succumb to that false dichotomy or it will crash and burn where some other Stacks can still survive with limited function.
But we don't actually need to invent extra policies for answering questions here, at least not yet. The simple notion that claims need explicit support--ANY kind of support--should be enough to get us off the ground, with multiple answers providing multiple critical lenses.
2
This attitude (that claims need support, but not specifying the kind of support) creates a space for responses ranging from reader response (experience-based support is a major part of several Stacks already! see rpg.se, parenting.se, gardening.se, etc) to authorial intent.
 
Bookworm
Bookworm
8:09 AM
1
Q: How did Sato get the file?

WoJIn Dan Brown's The Lost Symbol, Sato convinces Bellamy and Langdon to help her by How did she get that file?

dan-brown the-lost-symbol
 
Rand al'Thor
Rand al'Thor
@Hamlet Isn't that ... like, the exact opposite of elitism?
Being elitist is thinking that only 'experts' can produce any worthwhile content. It's precisely the belief that random nobodies off the street can't write expert-level content.
Of course, they need training (not necessarily formal training like a degree in lit, but some form of learning about what they're talking about) in order to do so. The attitude you're describing is also silly; it's just at the opposite end of the scale from elitism.
@BESW The trouble with experience-based support is that many people have trouble distinguishing it from no support at all. It's easy to see how authorial-intent answers are supported, but not always so easy to tell the difference between an experience-based answer and an unsupported opinion.
(I wonder if a good meta post could be made about that ...)
 
 
2 hours later…
BESW
BESW
10:10 AM
@Randal'Thor ...Isn't that pretty much what I said?
> ...a significant number of Stack users... [have] not been trained in the difference between assertion and support.
 
Mithrandir
Mithrandir
10:24 AM
The rule of Stack Exchange chat: anything worth saying, BESW has already said better.
 
BESW
BESW
@Mithrandir These days, I've usually said it better two years ago than I can say it now.
 
 
2 hours later…
BESW
BESW
12:28 PM
An Important Message from Peter S. Beagle: http://supportpeterbeagle.com/wordpress2/2017/10/26/an-important-message-from-peter-s-beagle/
Tweeted by KurtBusiek on October 27, 2017 at 1:00 AM
I love our library’s 404 error page. #404error #dragons #nerd @FalveyLibrary
Tweeted by SgWingo on October 24, 2017 at 1:38 PM
 
Bookworm
Bookworm
12:56 PM
0
Q: Where is this Greek extract from?

Aravind Suresh [Eurip. frag. 754.] [sic] ['He sat in the meadow and plucked with glad heart the spoil of the flowers, gathering them one by one.'] What is this Eurip. mentioned in the text? The Greek is a mere approximation I typed up, it may be full of typos.

meaning
 
 
1 hour later…
Bookworm
Bookworm
2:25 PM
0
Q: suggestions for psychological horror novels

KikonenI was wondering if anyone here has some suggestion about good psychological horror novels. You know, that kind of stories where scary/disturbing stuff is not shown directly. Those stories where everything looks normal...except for some small details that make you realise there's something totally...

style
 
 
3 hours later…
Gallifreyan
Gallifreyan
5:41 PM
^ I saw this a few times, but only now learned who the artist is myjetpack.tumblr.com/post/166841754185/…
 
Hamlet
Hamlet
@Randal'Thor could we agree that it's bad and stop doing it?
(I think it's weird that you don't consider that attitude elitist, but whatever).
 
 
5 hours later…
BESW
BESW
10:44 PM
> I hear it a lot of times from writers of privilege: ‘Oh well I’m damned if I do and damned if I don’t.’ Well, if you feel this way then just don’t. That’s how I feel about people writing my experience. If you feel that way then pick the damned where I get to tell my story. –Nic Stone
 

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