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12:02 AM
@fi12 Thanks! It actually was from online! I cropped it a lil', though. There's attribution in my profile.
12:13 AM
Seriously? The question has been posted for four minutes, asks for related work or scientific research and it has two down votes and 2 close as "primarily opinion-based"? — James Jenkins 10 mins ago
The title seems opinion based, but the question itself seems somewhat reasonable, doesn't it?
Crappy titles like that hurt good questions.
can't argue with that
1:05 AM
@Mithrandir Don't we all.
1:23 AM
PSA: Please don't star messages that absolutely don't make any sense without context. I don't care how right/wise/funny Napoleon was about denying whatever it was he denied, but there's absolutely zero benefit to people viewing the starboard of seeing "No" with nothing else on there.
Wait. What was starred?
@DVK-in-Florida I've learned not to post messages in Mos consisting only of a single question mark. They always get starred, for some reason.
7 hours ago, by Napoleon Wilson
"No". And yes, I know I can click on it and find out the context. but that's NOT what the starboard is supposed to be for, imho
@Randal'Thor At least, here we haven't had enough time to get into Mos habit of starring absolutely any comment that has the word "crap" in it. Which in retrospect was rather dumb as far as memes go, even if I am guilty of doing that once or twice.
Oh, okay. I don't know. I'm rarely in this room, so I don't know.
@DVK-in-Florida Well, there is a "crap" on the starboard right now ... :-P
@steelersquirrel You can still see it over there now, if you have a big enough screen.
1:29 AM
I'm rarely in mos these days, either. I am out of the starring loop it seems ;)
Sigh ... now it's hard to tell whether those comments were starred just for containing the C-word, or for being genuinely sensible (in DVK's case) or funny (in my case).
I honestly only come in here or mos if I am pinged. Ping! Ping! Ping!
@Randal'Thor I starred nothing. I promise. I am now afraid to ;)
@steelersquirrel Ping too much and you'll end up sounding like this fellow.
@steelersquirrel You can always star "cant argue with that" comment. It is nearly guaranteed to be universally correct.
1:35 AM
@Randal'Thor Seeing what that fellow is called, I don't really want to sound like him :P
@DVK-in-Florida Good point :)
@Randal'Thor Does that fall into "me and my big mouth" type of situations?
@DVK-in-Florida Yes, you've really done a Hagrid there.
@DVK-in-Florida i feel so special
1:51 AM
@BESW that sounds like a great paper. Thanks! It's going on my reading list. (I pretty much agree with everything you say about the monomyth. I think that it reinforces some problematic ideas about race and gender.)
He talks about pre-modern criticism as commentary on knowledge, while modern criticism is curation of taste.
How supposedly natural categories are ideological statements, that literary canon is presented as a form of insight into universal human truth, so the self-perpetuation of literary canon is a way to define what is and is not human.
@BESW any other recommendations of sources that critique Campbell?
oh, Wood isn't specifically criticising Campbell. More the whole Euro-American concept of literary canon and universal literary truth.
Most criticisms of Campbell are still buying into the underlying problems of which his monomyth is a symptom.
I know Wood because I work with Pasifika literary spaces as part of my professional niche.
2:07 AM
Where could I find a copy of Miss Emily and the Bibliographer?
If you're interested in cogent challenges to the Euro-American nature of literature and story, I think it's best to seek out indigenous scholars like Albert Wendt who are pushing at what it means for a post-colonial culture to discover its own literature rather than adopting the forms of the conqueror.
If you're interested in criticism of Campbell's monomyth from within his own paradigms, check out the Wikipedia sources for its criticism section.
@Benjamin Do you have JSTOR access? jstor.org/stable/41204494
@Randal'Thor I think I might.
@Randal'Thor No, I don't, but I know people who can get it for me.
Q: How did T.S. Elliot's literary criticism affect his poetry?

BenjaminT.S. Elliot wrote influential essays in New Criticism, a literary theory movement that if I understand correctly tried to revive formalism and focus on close reading and the text itself, as a response to the literary criticism of the early 20th century, which had a greater focus on external resou...

@BESW What do you think of that question?
I think I have to go teach a client.
@BESW What do you do?
2:24 AM
Answered my own question:
A: Did Winston and Julia oversleep?

Rand al'ThorAlmost certainly yes. First of all, let's look at a few quotes from the previous chapter, just to set the scene: Winston was gelatinous with fatigue. [...] He had worked more than ninety hours in five days. Before he starts to read Goldstein's book together with Julia: The clock’s han...

I wasn't satisfied by the existing answer, and nobody else produced one.
I was pretty sure I knew what the answer was already, but it was quite satisfying to write it all up and see it deduced so clearly.
2:39 AM
I'm not sure at what point bounties should be considered. I'm tempted to put one on my Bullet the Blue Sky question to get more attention to the tag, but part of me also wants that tag to just die a quiet death from not being used, as Shog predicted.
@HDE226868 Maybe bounties should wait until we reach public beta? At this stage, most of us who are here probably see most new questions posted anyway.
If I post a bounty at this point, my main motivation will probably be just to get rid of excess rep and maybe get someone else more site privileges, which ... doesn't seem like the best reason.
@Randal'Thor Maybe they should wait. I was viewing it from a motivational point of view, rather than an attention point of view. People are generally more likely to answer if they've got a shot at more rep.
3:04 AM
@Benjamin I'm a freelance graphic designer with a specialty in print media and an intersectionality niche, and I also teach computer programs through a local learning centre.
3:52 AM
@Randal'Thor congrats on the second proofreader
2 hours later…
5:46 AM
we seriously need a new main posts feed
somebody wanna make a meta for it?
@BESW ok that's a cool job
how did you get that? what (if any) degrees did you get to go into that field?
I have a degree in art studio with an emphasis in graphic design, an amateur background in composition and copy-editing, and an awareness of cultural contact zones and the existence/significance of navigating them carefully which most of my peers in the field lack.
After that it's just a matter of getting a reputation for stuff like caring about indigenous orthography, thinking taro can be beautiful, and helping clients work out their goals.
oh cool
@BESW ah, that makes a lot of sense
smart people can be pretty tactless or ignorant in fields that don't interest them
I've done theatre posters, multilingual lit magazine design, logos, book design--my specialty isn't what I do, but how I approach it.
seems like a really fun job
It's rewarding and frustrating, as most worthwhile jobs are.
5:53 AM
lol nice
The software instruction is mostly a side job, but I'm the only instructor on island who's willing to even try teaching the visually impaired how to use standard software through a screen reader interface, and that's also very rewarding work.
'on island'? what island do you live on?
oh cool
Hence why my willingness to have the client teach me about their reality is so valued.
Guam is a cultural nexus for a great deal of the Western Pacific and Eastern Asia.
2 hours later…
8:20 AM
Anyone alive here?
8:41 AM
let me pinch myself to confirm
9:01 AM
So that is a no.
it's complicated
9:24 AM
@Randal'Thor - want to take a look at this? You were interested in resolving this issue, if I remember correctly.
YES. +1. This is the same point I was trying to make here and in other places. Thanks for writing this up - it will hopefully make our life much easier in the future when it comes to tags on this site. — Rand al'Thor yesterday
10:26 AM
@Mithrandir thanks, I didn't see that. That answer does have a low number of votes though.
@BESW Cool!
11:03 AM
@Gallifreyan I think Robert has already said more or less what i would have.
@Randal'Thor Were you the one who had read The Library of Babel?
@Benjamin Yes, among others. Wait, let me fish out my Borges ...
@Randal'Thor I deleted my answer to my question. Thank you for pointing that out to me, I had forgotten that it was translated. I now feel really stupid about all the time I worked on that without ever looking at the Spanish. I can read parts of it in Spanish, but my Spanish is definitely not good enough to capture all of the nuance that exists in such a philosophical work.
@Benjamin My translation says "approximately eighty black letters", which actually supports your argument better.
Do we have any native Spanish speakers here?
@Randal'Thor Okay, well, if I could get a native Spanish speaker to write an answer like mine using the original Spanish that would be great.
Let me check on Spanish.SE
Unfortunately, I could not find an active chat room to ask in.
11:17 AM
Thing is, the only evidence we have to go on in the whole story is that one paragraph you quoted.
And we won't be able to draw a conclusive answer from that.
Which is OK, of course - just a bit disappointing.
Morning @Emrakul!
'evening, @Randal'Thor! :]
We've already had over 1000 posts: literature.stackexchange.com/a/1000/17
I happen to speak enough Spanish to answer this question, actually.
And found the relevant part of the book.
I wonder if there's an easy way to compare our statistics with those of other betas in their early days.
@Emrakul Oh, great!
11:23 AM
@Emrakul Were our English translations right?
They're right, but they take some liberty. They introduce unnecessary confusion.
The original Spanish goes to mild linguistic lengths to highlight the fact that, yes, the books are identical.
@Emrakul Ah, but what about the letters vs characters and the some/approximately.
I wouldn't go so far as to call it a mistranslation, but it misses the mark a little.
I'll post an answer, gimme a sec
11:26 AM
@Emrakul Even better! That means Benjamin's question has, quite by accident, highlighted an interesting fact in the original text which is missed in our translations. I always like it when an SE question turns out to have a much more interesting answer than one might expect.
Also, OMG, that "Library of Babel" website of yours is worse than TV Tropes.
It's very easy to get lost in the Library ;)
@Randal'Thor It is God, and we can become analogous to god, if we can find the perfect book.
...gimme a sec. I might actually be wrong about this. This has never happened, I'm never wrong about anything.
@Emrakul But, libraryofbabel.info believes in near empty pages: libraryofbabel.info/bookmark.cgi?hsov,f279
I think the way we're supposed to read it is that the books are in 80-column blocks. That can include whitespace.
11:30 AM
Hey @Napoleon, you might appreciate this too: libraryofbabel.info
@Randal'Thor I have a question coming about this.
@Emrakul So, would a better translation be "characters" as opposed to "letters"?
@Benjamin I was thinking of posting one too, but if you're going to spare me the effort ... :-P
It's definitely "letters" in the original.
I actually think we can't know based on the original. I take it back. I guess I'm just rusty on my Spanish, but it's coming back.
@Emrakul Well, you have a better shot than any of us at the answer.
11:34 AM
I read The Name of the Rose beforehand and only realized later that the library there took an obvious inspiration from it (maintained by noone else than the ominious "Jorge de Burgos").
@Emrakul I looked at the Spanish and I see what you mean by "mild linguistic lengths to highlight the fact that, yes, the books are identical.", I would agree with that.
@Emrakul Thanks for the answer. I have four more questions coming.
No problem! And, oh man. I get that, though.
I'm in the same position on a couple books, honestly.
There are so many good books! And so many good questions which can be asked about them!
Now that the spate of 1984 questions has died down a bit, perhaps I'll post the one I've been saving for a while.
@Randal'Thor I have some books about to come in, that I am looking forward to asking about.
11:49 AM
Actually, it occurs to me that Borges might just have stuck "unas" in there because it sounds better. "de unas ochentas letras de color negro" sounds a little better than "de ochentas letras de color negro." But that gets a little speculative, and to really answer it from that perspective, I'd have to be able to read fluently in Spanish.
@Benjamin Ooooh, which books?
@Emrakul The Shadow of the Wind and The Angel's Game
Oooooh. Those have been on my list for a whiiile.
Will anyone mind if I set up a feed in here to post new questions from the main site?
It's been requested several times to no protest.
12:01 PM
I think the ratio between our question volume and chat volume justifies it at this point.
Stack Exchange, please
19 messages moved to Trashcan
@Emrakul Just beat me to it :-)
12:07 PM
@Randal'Thor Ninja'd again! ;)
Anyway, goodnight!
Woo, Trusted User. Finally I can "Improve Edit" on tag wikis.
Night @Emrakul!
12:23 PM
@Randal'Thor So, is it copying questions from the main site now?
@Benjamin The bot? Yes, it should be.
So you don't have to post your questions in here as you submit them any more ;-)
The main bot should probably be the Bookworm rather.
If that was just called Stack Exchange that would be a pity.
@NapoleonWilson I'm ahead of you :-) Already changed the main bot to Bookworm and the meta one to Librarian.
Good ideas.
I would have gone for Meta Bookworm, but...I'm lame.
Q: Do we know whether Hamilton's Federalist papers were ever edited or vetted?

EmrakulAfter reading through The Federalist Papers, I've come to the general conclusion that Hamilton's essays are, by and large, a stream of consciousness. I don't know if I'd be able to say exactly why, but after running the Papers through a word counter, it turns out that the average sentence length ...

Q: What is the significance/symbolism of the hexagon in "The Library of Babel"?

BenjaminIn The Library of Babel by Jorge Luis Borges, the speaker describes the Library, as the universe, as The universe (which others call the Library) is composed of an indefinite and perhaps infinite number of hexagonal galleries, with vast air shafts between, surrounded by very low railings. T...

12:28 PM
@Randal'Thor Change Meta to "Babble." Er, "Babel."
Er, kidding! But actually it's time to sleep. I'm serious. I'm going to sleep, now. Watch me.
A hexagon has certain nice geometric properties, especially a regular one. But if anything, that site linked in chat previously elaborates on it, too.
@NapoleonWilson My follow-up question that will soon be posted points out a flaw I see in their interpretation.
Was there an option to inegrate that into your question somehow as part of prior research? Or are you just biting your lips and waiting for a specific answer now? ;-)
@NapoleonWilson They are independent questions, so I decided to leave them separate to avoid a close as too broad.
12:33 PM
It's not a bad question anyway.
Nested cubes would be a much better layout anyway. ;-)
12:48 PM
Do not bother cubes during nesting season, as they will fight to defend their young.
Coincidentally one of my former colleagues' PhD thesis was in part about the advantage of hexagonal grids over classic cuboidal ones with respect to representing and analysing volumetric objects.
33 mins ago, by Rand al'Thor
So you don't have to post your questions in here as you submit them any more ;-)
Why is it not actually posting on time? Or do I not understand its mechanism?
It can take a little. Sometimes upto 10 minutes even.
Did we ever decide how to handle posts about symbolism as a movement?
1:11 PM
Q: Are hexagons directly connected to each other?

BenjaminIn The Library of Babel by Jorge Luis Borges, the speaker describes hallways in between the hexagonal rooms as, One of the free sides leads to a narrow hallway which opens onto another gallery, identical to the first and to all the rest. So, he describes them as being narrow, but he does n...

Q: Does the original publication of The Library of Babel include a passage from The Anatomy of Melancholy?

BenjaminIn the English translation of The Library of Babel by Jorge Luis Borges that I have in my possession. It includes at the beginning a quote from The Anatomy of Melancholy, which reads, By this art you may contemplate the variations of the 23 letters... Was this included in the original Spani...

Q: What is the significance/symbolism of the Cyclical book being cyclical in "The Library of Babel"?

BenjaminIn The Library of Babel by Jorge Luis Borges, the speaker describes the cyclical book as (The mystics claim that their ecstasy reveals to them a circular chamber containing a great circular book, whose spine is continuous and which follows the complete circle of the walls; but their testimony...

2:14 PM
I think activity's finally slacking off a little.
2:29 PM
@HDE226868 yup
it started yesterday a bit
this chat's dieing down a bit as well because the hype is slowing down
2:49 PM
I'm here
just silent
@Bookworm on a new note: does benjamin have like 50% of the questions on the site by now o-o
@Riker lol, maybe
@HDE226868 working on getting rhun sources, don't have LOTR book right now though (friend borrowed it) but I'll probably be finished today
@Riker I actually have fellowship in my work cube
ah nice
started reading it on my lunch breaks
but hit a snag and kind lost interest
2:58 PM
wait you haven't read it before?
or just rereading
I never finished the trilogy
i read al of fellowship and half of two towers
but that was 15 years ago at least
you should finish it
because it's helpful when reading the simarillion
and everybody must read that
@Riker heh
I'm currently reading the legend of drizzt series at home
anybody happen to have a copy on hand of "The Atlas of Middle-earth"? my copy is also with that friend
he wanted to check them both out
@Riker nope
3:07 PM
:/ I'll have to wait if I can't find another copy
also story-id answers get many votes
mine is at 5 + accepted right now and the Q is only at 2
@Riker i just dv that q ;-)
well then
that makes more sense now
it's at +4/-3 now so
my main reason was that it's a very short id question
makes sense though, answers normally have more votes overall, and that one just had downvotes
BUT, it was also narrowed very quickly, so...
3:10 PM
@DForck42 you know how I got that? google. it was literally the first result
on the wikipedia page for "Hercule Poirot".
@Riker lol
@DForck42 yeah, I'm not all together sure if quote-id should be on-topic
@Riker as long as they're few, far between, and of high quality, that's fine
they're beginning to swamp movies tbh
3:14 PM
I don't even think the other QID question is answerable
@DForck42 yeah I check the front page there every so often
@Riker the allingham one?
I looked it up and found something referring to anotehr author with that
hold on let me find it again
Hi !
@S.C. HAI!
@S.C. hello
3:19 PM
Does anyone here like Harry Potter ?
@mith is the resident expert but many people here do
DVK also iirc
Bye !
@S.C. i do, but my fiancée is WAY more an expert than me, but feel free to ask questions
@DForck42 and people dont like pictures
@Riker I see at least 3 HP experts in here
i don't know who is and who isn't
3:28 PM
@Skooba huh?
@DForck42 the common man is attracted to bright shiny things... but those seem to be scoffed at here
@Skooba ahh
it's cause we're pale and don't like sunlight
that looks like ron burgundy
@DForck42 speak for yourself
@Skooba and they'll also probably make up fake quotes
3:32 PM
@DForck42 you have force my hand
user image
@Skooba lol
3:59 PM
Q: How are works decided for "Required Reading" lists?

SkoobaThroughout my days in school it seemed children all the across the country were reading the same things : The Adventures of Tom Sawyer and Huckleberry Finn, To Kill a Mockingbird, The Chocolate War, Lord of the Flies, etc., etc. Now I am sure all these works were popular or at least critically ...

38 minutes slow
get with the times bookworm
you're not any faster on main
@Riker I'm kinda thinking they might still be having some technical issues
no it's just normal stupid feed bots
new main posts on PPCG is often late by an hour
oh my
not always but about 30% of the time in my estimation
4:04 PM
That...seems odd, though. I've rarely seen it be later than a few minutes.
@NapoleonWilson it's lagging on movies today as well
4:18 PM
Q: Chat feed bots are unusually slow recently

doppelgreenerIn my experience, chat feed bots — the ones that post feed messages into the chat directly — are usually pretty fast. Our bot on RPG Stack Exchange reliably has posted new Meta posts to the chat after about 10 minutes. Recently however they seem pretty slow: We're noticing board game's Metagam...

i've decided to bring it up on meta
Wait. You guys keep saying "bookworm" That's the name of the chat bot or chat feed or whatever?
@steelersquirrel yup
And it's the same for meta?
the Lit Stack's version of OBie
@steelersquirrel That one's Librarian.
4:24 PM
@doppelgreener what's interesting is that, as far as i can tell, the one in movies is working just fine
Ahhhh...gotcha ;)
Any ideas as to how we should deal with questions about Hamilton? We currently have an tag for the man himself, and there could be some confusion.
@HDE226868 might work
or its full name Hamilton: An American Musical, but seems a little long
4:29 PM
Are there even question about the musical thing anyway?
@NapoleonWilson I have one coming.
Oh. :'(
I'm still confused on the whole music thing over here...
so we decided musicals were ontopic?
Who isn't?
4:31 PM
Whomever starred Napoleon's sad face will be getting scolded by DVK!! :P
Stars are chat upvotes, get over it. ;-P
@NapoleonWilson For what it's worth, it's about the use of the line "Tomorrow and Tomorrow and Tomorrow" and the tie-in to Macbeth.
@HDE226868 Okay, that postpones the tedious meta discussion, fortunately.
@NapoleonWilson It does.
Although, people are already using incoherent example questions for the opera cause. There was another one that wasn't actually about an opera but interpreted to be.
4:33 PM
@Himarm plays would be on topic, right? like Shakespeare? and scripts have been determined to be on-topic... soooo
<confused squirrel>
@Skooba have they? i havent' seen an example
@NapoleonWilson linky?
Q: Are operas considered literature on this site?

Matrim CauthonI am asking specifically about the plots or stories of the works (rather than the music). Example question about an opera: Had people related the work of Gogol before "The Nose"?

next question
I don't understand what is so difficult about this. If it's a movie, it should be asked on M&TV, if it's a song, it should be asked on the music appreciation site or whatever. If it's a book, it should be asked over here. Am I just too naive or is this too simple?
4:36 PM
is lala land ontopic
because its a musical
@DForck42 I was thinking about the comments here: meta.literature.stackexchange.com/questions/74/…
@steelersquirrel what about plays
they are neither books, movies, or tv
@steelersquirrel I think that movies will stay on M&TV and songs will not survive here, simply for a lack of interest.
@Skooba Sure. Plays should be included on literature. Like Shakespeare is included...I just don't want to see this site die again because of nobody knowing where to draw the line, here.
Because there's a big difference between those who analyze books and poems and those who analyze poems and songs. I have yet to see any of the latter here.
@steelersquirrel yeah i think its more How you ask the question
you have to format to asknig about the literary components of it
4:39 PM
@steelersquirrel honestly, i think most of it is people playing at defining the boundary than having ACTUAL questions
If you ask why they used a violin instead of a cello, thats off topic
@Skooba Yeah. True :)
as @NapoleonWilson said, no one's going to look at literature.se and think "movies!", they just aren't
if you ask about why the characters did something, thats on topic
can you ask about actors in a play
4:40 PM
@Himarm imho no
@steelersquirrel Well, it's certainly understandable that people who analyse books want to analyse other stuff, too. And they want to stick it all into a site dedicated to analyzing stuff. But well, that's just not what this site was proposed for and they want to turn a site for a specific thing into a site for a specific question kind, which is controversial...
...And out of sheer personal investment it bothers me. So if someone wants a literary analysis of Kubrick's films, Imma say "dude, you could have that for the last 5 years already!"
@Himarm id say no too. the actors are not part of the written work
you might get away with that on movies if it was televised/released on a screen
@Himarm Probably about the characters, but personal lives of actors aren't on topic on M&TV either, as far as I know.
@steelersquirrel have to take it to SFF then! Fandom is ontopic there! but only for SFF works!
4:42 PM
@steelersquirrel depends on the question. if it's, say how they went through the process to play that character, i could see that as on topic for movies
@DForck42 Yeah. Agreed.
And of course it bothers people when others say "books are literature but indigenous pottery isn't", as it might come off as Western-culture snobbism, which is understandable to some degree. But noone said this site's definition is supposed to be a statement about what the world is supposed to consider literature either.
@Skooba Really? You guys can ask about personal lives of actors if they are in a SFF movie or something?
@NapoleonWilson Duh...what? How is that western-culture snobbism? Isn't that just common sense?
@steelersquirrel sure
Q: What is JK Rowling "bad" at?

SkoobaWe all have come to know that J.K. Rowling considers herself bad at maths. She has even admitted it freely; ES: How many wizards are there? JKR: In the world? Oh, Emerson, my maths is so bad. Has Jo ever confessed to be being "bad" at anything else? To possibly limit the "broadness"...

@NapoleonWilson while i would like it to be on-topic, that subject matter would probably get a better treatment on history, but i don't know tha tsite
4:45 PM
@steelersquirrel The "pottery" might have been exaggeration from my side (or not?), but that argumentation has been thrown around here.
@Skooba WOOOOW, that's a terrible question
@DForck42 Ha! Tell us how you really feel ;)
@NapoleonWilson every dictionary says literature is written works, but i guess those are western too. I would argue that the medium doesn't matter as long as it is written down. if you have saga written on a piece of clay, go an ask about it
@DForck42 we have many questions like that
@steelersquirrel it literally has nothing to do with scifi OR fantasy, just about an author
@Skooba O_O
that'd be like someone asking biographical questions about steven Spielberg on movies... just... no...
@DForck42 a SFF Author
4:47 PM
@NapoleonWilson Gheez, Napoleon. There you go being all over-privilaged again :P
@steelersquirrel Hehe. ;-)
@Skooba doesn't make it better, imho
that sort of stuff is what reddit's for, not stack exchange
@DForck42 SFF has different guidelines that M&TV does.
@steelersquirrel apparently
4:48 PM
@DForck42 as part of our tour is says " Behind-the-scenes and fandom information: is on-topic
@Skooba I'm just... lost for words
@steelersquirrel definitely
brb, afk
@steelersquirrel different better :P
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