The Reading Room

user61230

12:08 AM

@Catija I think I figured it out. Posting an answer now.

Catija

@Emrakul Interesting...

BESW

@Emrakul Seems reasonable. I've seen similar distinctions from other authors.

user61230

I managed to find another reference that notes the same pattern. I'm still digging, I'll update if I find anything.

Rand al'Thor

Hello!

Catija

@Randal'Thor I asked a question! :D

:P

Helmar

12:19 AM

@Randal'Thor Hi

Rand al'Thor

@Catija Yay! Linky?

user61230

Hello, @Randal'Thor!

Catija

@Helmar You stole my line.

Helmar

@Catija It was never there

Napoleon Wilson

@Randal'Thor It's at the top of the frontpage.

Helmar

12:20 AM

xD

Rand al'Thor

Oh, it's that one!

I hadn't looked at it yet, just seen Emrakul answering it.

Napoleon Wilson

@Catija When you ask another one I'll be really sad. ;-)

Rand al'Thor

Interesting question, @Catija. I've read other books like that too. It usually annoys me, but I'm pretty sure it is a genuine literary device - they're deliberately trying to do something by writing that way. (What that something is, I'm not quite sure.)

Wolf Hall has a lot of inconsistent usage of quotes, IIRC.

Incidentally that's a godawfully written book, Man Booker Prize or no Man Booker Prize.

Helmar

@Randal'Thor If it's a literary device it's not inconsistent ;)

Napoleon Wilson

I saw it done in The Castle of Otranto and always thought it contributed to how more close the text and its story and structure are to Shakespearan tragedy than to traditional prose.

Catija

12:26 AM

@NapoleonWilson Har har... because then I'll have asked more questions here than on M&TV?

Rand al'Thor

@Helmar Well, you know what I mean ;-)

Napoleon Wilson

@Catija I'm just kidding, though.

Catija

@NapoleonWilson I will endeavor to only answer questions from now on :D

user61230

I found a more authoritative source, which I edited in. I'm going to clean up the answer a bit, still, so that it sounds less guess-y, now that I'm more confident in it.

Rand al'Thor

I've just started the thomas-hardy tag.

Riker

12:29 AM

@Randal'Thor in regards to your wessex question - does a map drawn by a friend of the author based on letters back and forth count?

Rand al'Thor

@Riker If it's the closest there is, then yes. Some quotes from those letters would help to support such an answer though, if possible.

Riker

cool, thanks

Riker

12:50 AM

@Randal'Thor done, coulnd't find a quote from the letters but found a online version of the book the map is from and quoted it regarding Hardy's input

@Catija oh god that is many questions about the wheelbarrow

Napoleon Wilson

1:05 AM

Heh, right. Our very first question was from Literature.SE.

Rand al'Thor

@NapoleonWilson Seriously? :-o

Napoleon Wilson

@Randal'Thor Half.

HDE 226868

@NapoleonWilson Now, that makes the Literature-Movies link much more interesting.

This could get amusing.

Napoleon Wilson

@Randal'Thor It's two months older than the site, but was migrated much later (presumably when Literature was killed, or before the 60 days limit was put in place).

Rand al'Thor

@NapoleonWilson Oh. That's ... another interesting edge case.

HDE 226868

1:15 AM

Huh. It also affects old chat oneboxing.

Let's see what else it breaks.

Napoleon Wilson

I could imagine this might not that easy to fix, though.

Rand al'Thor

@HDE226868 Yep, I'd already noticed that.

user61230

At least timestamp is a clear differentiator.

HDE 226868

@NapoleonWilson It may end up just not being worth it.

user61230

It's not like a human could get them mixed up. It'll be possible to fix.

Napoleon Wilson

1:16 AM

Someone would have to eliminate all those links.

Rand al'Thor

Aug 9 '11 at 21:39, by Shog9

1

Q: I have read Dan Ariely's - "Predictably Irrational". What other authors/books should I be going after, next?

I really liked this book - "Predictably irrational" by Dan Ariely. I have also read "More sex is safer sex" and "freakonomics" which are kind of cousins as far as the genre is concerned. What other similar books should I be reading based on similar author/content. Please mention one suggestion p...

HDE 226868

@Randal'Thor That was what I first noticed.

user61230

Okay, first of all, that's an interesting question and I now want to know what that said.

Rand al'Thor

@NapoleonWilson Indeed.

HDE 226868

Reading the old transcript is terrible. It's like you get a tiny window into the past, and darn it, the window's smudged.

Rand al'Thor

1:18 AM

@Emrakul grabs cross and holy water It's a recommendation question!

Napoleon Wilson

@Emrakul That recommendation thing?

@HDE226868 ...to the future. ;-P

user61230

I mean, it's not a great fit for Stack Exchange, but I'm still curious what the answers said.

HDE 226868

@NapoleonWilson Okay, Doc. I'll let you step into the DeLorean first.

Riker

2

Q: Who said that Allingham "polished her prose until it shone over-bright," and where?

Somebody read to me from a book about Allingham long ago that she would "polish her prose until it shone over-bright" and then dictate it to her husband to reduce it to a more readable vernacular. I think it was a line from a biography describing an interview with surviving relatives. I've repeat...

authors margery-allingham quote-id

is that on-topic?

asking for source of a quote

not a quote from a book, a quote about a author

Rand al'Thor

@Riker I'd vote yes.

Riker

1:25 AM

I don't think so

haven't VTCed yet though

Rand al'Thor

Now @BESW has reminded me that I still want to know the meaning of some of the foreign phrases in some of Poe's stories.

But I guess that wouldn't be on-topic here. It's a translation request, not a literary question.

Unless I spin it to say "what does X mean and how does it fit into the story", but that feels like cheating.

BESW

And it'd get downvoted into oblivion because you can Google it, and apparently we don't want to replace other sites as the place Google links to.

Rand al'Thor

1:47 AM

@Napoleon Woo, you got an answer from Nevermore!

Riker

lol

Napoleon Wilson

@Randal'Thor Indeed.

Rand al'Thor

Hmm, that's a little disappointing though, tbh. I was expecting a little more detailed analysis from someone who's literally published essays about that poem ;-)

Napoleon Wilson

2:00 AM

@Randal'Thor I'm talking with her about it. She didn't want to overwhelm me and adressed only the specific question I asked about.

Rand al'Thor

Napoleon is talking with Nevermore?

STEELER, WHERE DID YOU PUT THE POPCORN?

:-P

Riker

Careful. I'm showing this to my sister later tonight. She won't be able to help herself but to answer this also ;) — steelersquirrel 22 hours ago

hahaha

Rand al'Thor

... I only just now realised how similar "The Screening Room" and "The Reading Room" are. Not sure if this is a good thing or a bad thing.

Poor Napoleon and Ankit will end up getting confused about which room they're in ;-)

in The Screening Room, 6 mins ago, by Nevermore

like my sister, for example! Can you kick her off of here?

Riker

lol

omg she even talks like steeler

in The Screening Room, 10 mins ago, by Nevermore

You have the power to kick her off of here!! This is great!

in The Screening Room, 4 mins ago, by Nevermore

You seem too intelligent to willingly put yourself through this!

Napoleon Wilson

Are you dissecting the conversations from other rooms here? ;-)

Riker

2:12 AM

sorta lol

user61230

The use of exclamation points by user "Nevermore" seems to indicate a sarcastic tone, which in the context of the conversation, makes some manner of sense. It's a particular paradigm that's emphasized by the chat environment where these quotes were found. The double exclamation point serves to reiterate this point.

Riker

o_O

Rand al'Thor

Well, it is the room for literary analysis!

0

A: Moral of the Hunger Games Trilogy

You've misunderstood a few minor aspects and one whopping big major aspect of the ending and moral of the Hunger Games series. I'll get the most important point out of the way first. The 76th Hunger Games with Capitol children almost certainly never happened. To understand this, we have to con...

There.

If that ain't a thorough analysis, I don't know what is.

user61230

2:27 AM

-1 not thorough enough ;)

user61230

That's actually a very nice answer.

Rand al'Thor

Thanks!

I've established myself as the resident HG expert over on SFF, so I was eager to bring some of that knowledge here.

Shopping question?

BESW

Availability question.

I've considered a few of those myself, like "I saw Peter Onedera's Liheng Abusu performed at the University of Guam; is the script published anywhere I could get it?"

user61230

@Randal'Thor Shopping questions are usually "which do I buy?" In this case, it's more, "where do I find it?" That's a valuable lasting resource, particularly when there's a lot of literature that can be hard to impossible to find.

Rand al'Thor

@Emrakul I know some SE sites (Travel?) allow this kind of question, but to me they feel a bit iffy for Literature.

BESW

2:37 AM

34

A: Why are "shopping list" questions bad?

Irritatingly, the terms "shopping list question" (or "shopping question") and "recommendation question" are often thrown around without regard to what they originally meant. They're different, but since there is some overlap and very little care paid to how they're used, I'll attempt to define bo...

Rand al'Thor

reads

BESW

Read the associated material too. There's blog posts.

This is what I mean about betas seeming to reset everybody's basic understanding of Stack concepts.

We've got a whole meta thread about shopping that doesn't seem to refer to any previous learning about the topic.

Rand al'Thor

@BESW Sometimes it's hard to tell what's a basic Stack concept and what's a site-specific policy. I know where to find SFF's meta thread about shopping questions; I didn't know where to find all these blog posts and stuff until now.

BESW

@Randal'Thor SFF's meta should also have led back to the source material. Those omissions are how this ignorance spreads.

I hope you're considering adding that context to SFF's meta now you know it exists.

I've just taken to searching Meta Stack Exchange for anything that comes up, because it's usually been faced and dealt with already by another Stack and we can learn from them even if we reach different conclusions.

One of the greatest values the Stack network can offer is that each new site doesn't have to reinvent the wheel... but we tend to not take advantage of that.

Rand al'Thor

@BESW Actually, looks like it already does.

BESW

2:45 AM

Well then.

Rand al'Thor

I said I knew where to find the SFF meta thread, not that I've read it in detail ;-)

@BESW If only it were possible to search every per-site meta all in one go ...

BESW

@Randal'Thor Google your term, followed by site:meta.*.stackexchange.com/

Rand al'Thor

Sometimes it's possible to find good per-site meta posts using Google if you know the right buzzword. E.g. "a close vote is not a super-downvote" led me to something good on Arqade (?) meta.

@BESW That works? Well, TIL.

On an unrelated note, this is amusingly meta.

user61230

I really miss this about Meta Stack Overflow. When MSO split off into MSE, it isolated the general Stack meta from any specific site's recurring problems, and we lost a great repository of exposure to shared knowledge. I realize it wasn't perfect, but it was... better than nothing.

doppelgreener

@Emrakul we don't have nothing now either though

BESW

2:49 AM

In theory I agree with you, but I couldn't follow MSO because it was just a firehose of irrelephant concerns that had no relation to my Stack experience.

2

MSE lets me actually find the general stuff. At the cost of specific stuff I wouldn't have been exposed to, yes, but that was such a deluge I wound up not being exposed to anything at all.

user61230

Yeah. I agree with the change, for that reason. But we did lose something.

doppelgreener

what did we lose?

BESW

@doppelgreener Cosmopolitan exposure to other Stacks' specific concerns.

doppelgreener

we lost a lot that was specific to SO, but things that work for SO are not necessarily what works for the network

BESW

Basically forced awareness of the diversity of the network.

user61230

2:52 AM

That's true, but SO is what Stack's design is based around.

doppelgreener

@BESW It was just one stack though, and then it was just SO users being exposed to the broader community, but they can get that anyway.

user61230

Understanding how and why Stack is designed to work for Stack Overflow specifically carries its own value.

BESW

Yeah. I think the current situation has a better cost/benefit ratio, but that's not saying the cost is nil.

Napoleon Wilson

@BESW How? Per-site metas already exited back then. What you had was just Meta Stack Exchange with one specific per-site meta tacked onto it.

BESW

And now I never have to see another site's meta ever again if I don't want to.

MSO is the way I learned the Stack Exchange is widely considered a computer sciences network.

My memberships were in rpg.se, writing.se, scifi.se, etc.

(etc.se had a lot of trouble defining its scope.)

2

Napoleon Wilson

3:03 AM

@BESW Well, of course.

Riker

why is this being downvoted? I'd like to know

Napoleon Wilson

@Riker Because of this?

@Randal'Thor Mine has a fun custom logo in the tab.

Rand al'Thor

I wonder if I may have to self-answer this one.

I have a whole range of reasonable arguments supporting one possibility over the other.

And the only answer I've got so far is ... well, terrible :-/

user61230

3:29 AM

If I had my copy of 1984... alas.

Rand al'Thor

@Emrakul ebooks.adelaide.edu.au/o/orwell/george/o79n/contents.html

That's what I've been using for 1984 quotes.

Bookworm

3

Q: Old Literature Stack Exchange migration links no longer work properly

I've been browsing elsewhere on Stack Exchange, and I noticed that a few questions that have been migrated redirect to Literature via their post numbers - as they should. An example is What order should the Chronicles of Narnia books be read in?, on Science Fiction & Fantasy Stack Exchange. There...

bug migration hyperlinks

user61230

I may or may not answer. I've got some old answers people have asked me to update that are a slightly higher priority.

Rand al'Thor

@Emrakul Sure, no worries! In the worst case I can always do a self-answer instead.

Riker

4:04 AM

@Randal'Thor you'll probably pass me in rep, I'm gone all of tomorrow I think

user61230

6:44 AM

@Randal'Thor I finally got around to posting it ;)

kristan

7:09 AM

Bother; I joined the Literature site because I really like books... but afterward realized that I generally don't have specific questions about them, or any useful answers to others' questions :-/. Now I'm starting to despair of being able to fulfill my commitment :-(. I lurk and read with interest, but don't really have anything to say.

2

So now I'm left trying to figure out what to do about that...

SQB

8:06 AM

@kristan that makes two of us.

Mick

@SQB Three of us. I think that a useful first step is to re-read your favourite books. I'm putting together a rather quirky question about The Wind in the Willows, but I need to re-read it first.

Gallifreyan

Does anyone have an idea on how to improve this?

user61230

I think it's just getting downvotes because it's a common question on Stack Exchange, and readers are assuming everyone knows the answer already.

user61230

If you wanted to improve it, you could... maybe, hm. More directly address the concerns in the Meta.SE post about shopping questions?

Gallifreyan

8:22 AM

Yeah, but what do we mean by shopping questions? The question that started it was looking for a specific edition, not shopping recommendations

Himarm

i feel like the meta post is 2 seperate questions

i dont equate shopping questions, with book editions

user61230

Well, "where do I get this book?" is different than "what book should I buy?"

user61230

It's usually the latter that's problematic. The former could be a really helpful resource, especially when it comes to books that are hard to obtain.

Himarm

i know someone else in chat was discussing looking for the particular version of a book that had the story in it

Gallifreyan

Ok, I'll edit in a moment

Hmm. I think I'll leave this one for kinda shopping and ask another one for book editions

user61230

8:26 AM

That works, too.

Gallifreyan

Then how do I word this one?

user61230

Which one?

Gallifreyan

The shopping one

Not technically shopping though

Basically, we need to decide something about this:

user61230

Do you mean, the "where do I get this book?" question, or the "what book should I buy?" question?

Gallifreyan

-3

Q: Could I have purchased this Mongolian phrasebook while I was in Australia?

While in Mongolia, I was able to purchase the book Mongolian Phrasebook (Mongolian-English) by J. Bat-Ireedui & B. Nomunzul, ISBN 978-99973-42-80-5 at the State Department Store in Ulaanbaatar. I wasn't able to find any retailers on the internet who had it in stock, and the Kinokuniya in Sydney ...

resources non-fiction

user61230

8:35 AM

Oh, that's a question about availability of books. So I might go with something like, "should questions about how to track down difficult-to-find books be on-topic?"

Himarm

hrm

that question is especially bad

because its asking about somethign in the past

"could i have bought X book in 95" seems a bad precedent

can i currently buy a book is a different matter

user61230

I agree

user61230

But that doesn't seem to be why people closed it

Gallifreyan

Damn. It's easier if I just delete this question and start two new ones

Mick

Guys and gals. Could you link your posts, please, so that we can follow conversations?

user61230

8:40 AM

@Mick Currently, we're talking about this meta question, which references this on-site question (and previously, this one).

SQB

@Gallifreyan edit the current question to be about shopping, because that's how people seem to have read it.

user61230

And that there seem to be two types of questions: those asking where/how to find a specific book, and those asking what book to buy (the latter being the more traditional "shopping question").

SQB

Then ask a new one, asking the question @b_jonas has answered.

Himarm

and maybe toss something in about "current availability" vs "availability X years ago"

SQB

Make clear it's not about shopping recommendation. In fact, avoid the word shopping altogether.

Himarm

8:43 AM

because i def dont think we should be asking about book availability X years ago

SQB

Instead, focus on how to locate specific editions of a book. That should be squarely on topic.

But do that in a new question; the current one is unsalvageable.

Gallifreyan

9:12 AM

Edited, but still not sure

Gallifreyan

9:23 AM

I raised a flag for mods to delete it - I think it's better to start fresh, especially since it has answers that seem to misinterpret the question, due to bad wording

I guess someone other should ask the question about the things you wrote above

I'm out

user61230

9:39 AM

@Gallifreyan Alright, that works! You're right, it got a little confusing.

user61230

And, goodnight!

Gallifreyan

10:04 AM

@Emrakul It's currently 13:04 here

I meant I wont post questions on meta for now

user61230

10:26 AM

Oh, that's fair!

Benjamin

10:58 AM

@NapoleonWilson It is

@BESW I wish the political satire had been published.

SQB

12:37 PM

@Gallifreyan I might give it a go later on.

Rand al'Thor

12:59 PM

@Emrakul The latter is essentially a recommendation question, which we already have a meta post about. IIRC, people on SFF usually treat the former as a 'shopping question' too ... hmm ...

user61230

@Randal'Thor It might be worth raising on SFF meta, honestly. But I'm not too familiar with the situation there.

user61230

It's definitely not a black-and-white division. I might be in the minority in seeing them as distinct.

user61230

(Side note: I really need to learn to talk more concisely on meta, I think. I gave another 700-word answer.)

Rand al'Thor

@Emrakul Nah, long meta answers are really good. If you have that much to say, then you're probably making good arguments to support your case.

user61230

I appreciate the answer mention! ;) (Though DVK is right - I do need to add more references...)

user61230

1:10 PM

And, I suppose. It can limit who wants to take the time to read it, though...

Rand al'Thor

I'm coming back to this question again, and I still don't get how it's off-topic. Do you think it would be better if I rephrased it as "how many of the words in Shakespeare's plays had never been used before", to put the emphasis on the works themselves rather than their impact on the language?

user61230

[thinks]

user61230

I personally think it's on topic as is, because understanding the words Shakespeare uses is imperative to understanding the work as a whole, but I'm clearly in the minority on that.

user61230

I think it's closed, though, because on the surface level a number of coined words isn't strictly literature. So I think that kind of edit, even if superficial, might help.

Rand al'Thor

1:28 PM

Edited and ~~VTROed~~ not VTROed, because I already did last time.

@Emrakul Relevant meta discussion, in case you missed it.

user61230

...I did miss this, actually.

DVK-in-Florida

Possible drama ahead.

user61230

@Randal'Thor I think BESW might be right. I stand by my VTRO on principle, though.

Helmar

1:44 PM

@Randal'Thor that seems still awfully broad

One would have to analyse more or less every word he wrote

I also think the meta question should be [closed-questions] not [scope]

Rand al'Thor

@DVK-in-Florida I didn't think that was such a bad question. Posted an answer (I'm not completely happy with it, but ...)

user61230

Gotta sleep. 'Night!

Rand al'Thor

@Helmar I tried to make it a more general question about site scope with reference to one particular question, rather than just "why was my question closed".

Night @Emrakul!

Helmar

@Randal'Thor I get that, but I think the scope you are describing is not presented favorably by your question.

Rand al'Thor

@Helmar I did post a second question along similar lines, which hasn't been closed. Maybe worth adding that to my meta question as well?

Helmar

1:59 PM

Yeah and maybe focus the meta a bit more on that sort of language impact

DVK-in-Florida

2:26 PM

Wow. People really don't like my Tolkien question. Is that because it's objectively bad, or is that the SFF-ish "we don't do analysis of history of literature" kind of reaction?

Rand al'Thor

@Helmar Edited the meta question.

@DVK-in-Florida Analysis of history of literature seems to be doing pretty well on here in general. Linky?

DVK-in-Florida

@Randal'Thor I don't think it's bad (heck, i almost upvoted it). I simply expect at least some controversy over scope on various angles.

-2

Q: Was J.R.R. Tolkien building on a past tradition when relying heavily on languages he made up?

The uncontested fact set is the well known "Tolkien was a linguist", "Tolkien wrote Middle-Earth as a setting for his languages". However, what interests me is whether the approach he took was out of the blue, or was he building on existing literary tradition as far as the author making up a new...

j-r-r-tolkien constructed-language history-of

Rand al'Thor

Hmm, who's around to approve my tag wiki edits? Emrak went to bed, Riker is away today, Mith probably is too ... that leaves CHEESE and fi12, unless HDE gets a bit more rep.

@DVK-in-Florida Are you asking whether there was an existing tradition of inventing new languages for a literary work? I mean, if there was, Tolkien would presumably have known about it before starting on his own LotR. (And if there wasn't, obviously it couldn't have inspired him!)

DVK-in-Florida

@Randal'Thor Yep, pretty much.

Rand al'Thor

If so, maybe reword the question as "was Tolkien the first" instead of "was he building on an existing tradition"?

Just makes it a bit clearer and simpler.

Also:

47

Q: Was Tolkien the first to invent languages purely for fictional works?

Imaginary languages are now par for the course in fantasy literature: sometimes called something like 'the old tongue' or 'the ancient language', sometimes the languages of different types of being or of people living in different places. In many cases these languages aren't developed beyond a fe...

tolkien history-of languages tolkien-languages

HDE 226868

3:03 PM

@Randal'Thor I'm an upvote away. I might get one or two more after revising my The Call of the Wild answer.

Rand al'Thor

@HDE226868 I've already upvoted it, but I'd double-upvote if I could after the latest edit.

Gallifreyan

@HDE226868 there you go

HDE 226868

@Randal'Thor No problem; I just got one.

@Gallifreyan Thanks.

Okay, I'm a little shaky on the tag wiki edits. I approved @Randal'Thor's George Martin ones, but I realized that most of the suggestions - those included - don't really do much more than identify the author and the relevant works.

Rand al'Thor

@HDE226868 Trouble is, what more is there to say really?

HDE 226868

@Randal'Thor I really don't know.

Rand al'Thor

3:09 PM

I've made sure to say "for questions about the author and their works" in each case, since the consensus on meta seems to be that using both author tags and work tags is fine.

Gallifreyan

We could have a [marvel-comics] tag, and use it only for their properties in general

ducks thrown rotten vegetables and eggs

@HDE226868 nice answers on Physics, by the way.

HDE 226868

@Gallifreyan Ah! Don't vote on them! But thank you.

Gallifreyan

If you don't mind me asking, in which country are you an astrophysics major?

HDE 226868

@Gallifreyan United States.

I'm also a freshman.

Gallifreyan

Cool, nice to see a fellow physicist around. 'Tis sad not many universities have astrophysics

HDE 226868

3:19 PM

@Gallifreyan I spoke to a physics professor at Bowdoin when I was looking at colleges. He told me that one of the best ways to go into astrophysics is to major in just physics, then do astrophysics in grad school.

Gallifreyan

@HDE226868 so did my head of department

One girl asked at our introductory meeting: "Is there a faculty member dealing with astrophysics?" and the head of department said "Nope, go to university X". Literally.

You know what the girl did? She transfered to university X. As if there were too many girls with blue hair studying physics at our university.

Rand al'Thor

3:41 PM

@HDE @Riker Don't forget to check the review queues on meta too (maybe you already have - I don't get the "+2" notification when those edits are approved - but it's easy to forget about meta.)

HDE 226868

@Randal'Thor Been there, done that.

Rand al'Thor

OK :-)

Gallifreyan

3:55 PM

My life goal is to launch a barge into the air and have it land on one of Elon Musk's rockets.

Yay, xkcd oneboxes here as well

Riker

it's chat wide

M.A.R.

@Gallifreyan They onebox everywhere

Well, every SE chatroom

And one of the few sets of large oneboxes that I like

Have you seen Amazon oneboxes? Shivers

Gallifreyan

This one has the hover text and everything

user15026

I kinda want to ask a couple questions about the book I am reading but I'm not done it, so I am going to feel silly if the things get explained

Rand al'Thor

@Ash Which book?

If someone else here has finished it, they can tell you if the questions are silly.

user15026

4:01 PM

Wool by Hugh Howey

user15026

I don't think they explain the stuff I am going to ask about, at least they've not so far (25% done the book)

user15026

Basically, I am curious about the significance of the title, and also why the heck there are no elevators.

Helmar

Everyone who reads that wonders about elevators :D

Rand al'Thor

@Ash The significance of the title is an interesting and answerable question, but it does involve spoilers.

user15026

I'm okay with spoilers, I just wanted to make sure that those things weren't like displayed in the book in neon as it were at some point I've just not reached yet

Helmar

4:12 PM

@Randal'Thor Especially since it is layered :)

@HDE226868 please edit your meta post, IoT does not have a pubic beta :D

Rand al'Thor

Yes, there are several different meanings to the title. Could make for quite an interesting Q&A.

HDE 226868

@Helmar Ack. Thank you.

Riker

Can't not home @Randal'Thor

Will do later

Rand al'Thor

I'm not sure what that's in response to, but OK.

Riker

Meta reviewa

user15026

4:26 PM

Alright, I will ask the title one for now :)

Rand al'Thor

@Ash How did you manage to downvote before making any posts?

... oh, private beta rep thresholds.

Never mind.

user15026

I was going to say magic but yeah, that

Mithrandir

Rand, I approved your meta edits

Now I'm off to where there's no Internet

Rand al'Thor

Dammit @HDE, you ninja'd me on that WitW question.

Well, I'm still going to finish my answer. I've picked up on some things which aren't in yours.

HDE 226868

@Randal'Thor That's fine. There's no problem with a few answers.

Rand al'Thor

4:38 PM

Quite the opposite! Multiple answers is even one of the Area 51 stats which are supposed to make a site successful.

What's the word for a character who's new to everything in the story, to whom exposition can be addressed so as to inform the reader as well as the character?

Helmar

@Randal'Thor cabbagehead

Rand al'Thor

I think "audience surrogate" may be the term I was looking for.

user15026

4:54 PM

Wow, I didn't expect that the author had said anything about the title, that's kinda great

Rand al'Thor

@Ash Happy to oblige! :-)

user15026

I do feel like this might be like Arqade, where my questions vastly outnumber my answers. :/

user15026

I like books, I read a LOT (and quickly), but I am bad at the analysis bit (English degree and all - mind you I did do more of a technical writing bent.)

Mick

@Ash I wish that I could think of more questions to ask. :-(

user15026

I figure with how much I read, stuff will just percolate and pop up :)

Rand al'Thor

5:05 PM

@Mick I just answered your WitW question. That was fun.

@HDE I also considered using your first quote, but decided it probably didn't mean all that much. A middle-class gentleman in Edwardian England would be unlikely to view his servant as 'company' even if he had one.

Mick

@Randal'Thor Actually, I agree with you, but it seemed like a fun question to ask about a book that I have read many, many times.

HDE 226868

@Randal'Thor I'll acknowledge that possibility, but I think that and the second one are strong together. The first one, alone, isn't very convincing.

At least we came to the same conclusion, in different ways.

You get an upvote from me for doing what I think is an excellent analysis of all four characters.

Rand al'Thor

Thanks :-)

This is where being a fast reader comes in useful.

I literally skim-read several chapters of tWitW while constructing that answer.

Mick

@Randal'Thor You Philistine! I like to savour every word. However, if I want to ask questions about more weighty tomes, I going to have to take a critical eye to them (as well as read fast).

Helmar

5:23 PM

Added a spoilery answer to the elevator question

Also added the in-universe answer to the title question.

Benjamin

How about The Angel's Game for a group read?

Mick

@Benjamin A group read sounds like a good idea -- gets my vote.

Rand al'Thor

5:44 PM

@Helmar I wonder if this would be a good case for using spoilertags ...

Since even the OP may not want to see those spoilers.

Helmar

Can do, one moment

How?

It's essentially all spoiler

Rand al'Thor

@Helmar Put >! at the start of a paragraph.

Helmar

Yeah, I know that, I mean what do I spoiler paragraph

Rand al'Thor

@Helmar You could spoilerblock the whole thing, but some kind of unspoilery statement in between each paragraph and the next might be nicer.

Let me have a look ...

Helmar

Feel free

I don't come from Spoiler-SEs

Rand al'Thor

5:48 PM

In this answer, how about spoilering just the first two quote blocks?

Or could the very fact that "World Order Operation Fifty" is a thing be spoilery?

Helmar

I added the tags

Rand al'Thor

The beauty of this is that now people can still appreciate the main point of the answer even without reading the spoilers.

I'm not so sure about the other one.

Helmar

Yeah, that's kinda a book three thing

Rand al'Thor

You'd probably have to split paragraphs, e.g. "The reason is that the Silos Two to Silo Fifty <linebreak> <spoilertag> can be terminated remotely by releasing some airborne killer, the white smoke."

Helmar

Well actually the existance of several silos is a reveal too

Rand al'Thor

5:54 PM

Or you could just spoilerblock the whole thing, but some people might get up in arms about that.

Helmar

Well, then we can have a meta discussion :P

Not a bad thing in early beta

Rand al'Thor

(+1, btw)

@Helmar I think there's already a meta discussion about spoilers.

25

A: Should we assume that questions about a book spoil that book, or should we use spoiler markup?

Honestly, I'm a big fan of M&TV's policy: No Spoilers in Titles Most answers will contain spoilers to someone. There's no way to draw a line that will make everyone happy. If the OP is asking for advice about a book they have not read, answers should be considerate of this and consider putting...

> If the OP is asking for advice about a book they have not read, answers should be considerate of this and consider putting major plot points in spoiler markup.

Helmar

my multiparagraph spoiler is broken :(

Rand al'Thor

@Helmar Put a double space at the end of each line (including the blank one between paragraphs).

Helmar

And replace > with <blockquote> apparently

Rand al'Thor

6:05 PM

Oh, I didn't know that worked!

Formatting within spoiler blocks is a bit of a beast.

HDE 226868

6:26 PM

@Randal'Thor I got through the first three before answering, but I might finish it up tonight. It brings back a lot of memories.

Rand al'Thor

6:55 PM

One thing I love about SE: even by answering a question, with the research involved, you can learn more about a topic than you ever realised there was to know.

6

Researching Edith Hamilton's life for this question about Greek myths has taught me about religious and gender issues in German universities at the end of the 19th century. Who would've thought it?

kristan

I had a comment about the question of why Arthur Conan Doyle tried to kill off Sherlock Holmes, but the comment button wasn't working in my phone browser (I could type them out, but not save), and now I can't find the question.

HDE 226868

12

Q: Why did Sir Arthur Conan Doyle decide to kill Holmes?

In The Final Problem, Sir Arthur Conan Doyle made the decision to kill off Sherlock Holmes. This was met with great disapproval from the fans, who didn't want to see their favorite detective dead. Why did he decide to kill off his most famous character?

sherlock-holmes arthur-conan-doyle

kristan

Still doesn't work; "Add Comment" just flickers and does nothing. I'll try my other browser...

rats. same result. If only I could access my phone's clipboard from my computer!

Mick

@Riker Because he's bigger than you. :P

kristan

" There is also a difference in the stories after Sherlock's return. At least as I perceive them, the earlier ones had more personality and story development, but the later ones seem more isolated and have more of a focus on the mystery itself, like brain puzzles in novel form. This probably has to do with the fact that Arthur Conan Doyle was tired of writing them." it was very profound.

Rand al'Thor

7:10 PM

Posting test comment ... — Rand al'Thor 8 secs ago

Works for me.

@kristan That's what HDE said here too. I never noticed a change, honestly. Perhaps it's time for me to reread a few SH stories ...

HDE 226868

@Randal'Thor I found another bizarre connection between some of Poe's works - not strictly stories, but odd enough that I thought it deserved some recognition.

@kristan I totally agree.

Rand al'Thor

@HDE226868 Interesting. Maybe Poe identified himself with Tamerlane while he was writing that poem?

> He also confesses early on that he knows little about the historical Tamerlane, "and with that little, I have taken the full liberty of a poet."

HDE 226868

Hold on. I found another one.

Rand al'Thor

So he might have based it more on his own experiences than anything else.

> Poe may have written the poem based on his own loss of his early love, Sarah Elmira Royster, his birth mother Eliza Poe, or his foster-mother Frances Allan. The poem may also mirror Poe's relationship with his foster-father John Allan; similar to Poe, Tamerlane is of uncertain parentage, with a "feigned name."

kristan

@HDE226868 Glad to see I'm not the only one who's observed that :-D

(referring to the Sherlock Holmes thing; reply linking isn't working on my phone)

Benjamin

7:26 PM

@Mick But, how do you feel about that book?

Rand al'Thor

@Benjamin @Mick What are you imagining this group read to involve? A bunch of people in a chatroom reading the same book at the same time and chatting about it?

It sounds like a great idea, if we can get enough people interested in the same book.

Mick

@Benjamin I have never read it, but I'll happily do so if others want to discuss it.

Rand al'Thor

Group movie nights have worked well in various chatrooms in the past.

One advantage of books over films is that it's much easier to read (e.g. on-screen) while doing other things - people could even do it at work.

Benjamin

@Mick Nether have I, but it is has many mentions of books, so I was interested.

Rand al'Thor

One disadvantage might be that different people read at different speeds, but that "doing other things at the same time", or just stopping to wait every so often, could resolve that.

Mick

7:31 PM

@Randal'Thor One problem that we have while in beta is that with a limited number of members, there is probably little overlap in our reading. I have certainly not read widely and cannot venture answers on most of the questions raised.

HDE 226868

@Randal'Thor I think that was the case with quite a few of Poe's works - mainly his poetry, from what I've seen over the years.

Also, I now have a fourth set of examples for your Poe question - one which I think is what you were looking for.

Rand al'Thor

@Mick But if it's a chat event, we don't have to restrict it to site members. We can advertise it across the network, and then use it to draw more people in to this site!

Mick

@Randal'Thor I was thinking that it would allow more of us to ask questions and give answers about the same work, especially while the site is in beta. I wasn't primarily thinking about discussions in chat.

Rand al'Thor

@HDE226868 That sounds really interesting. I don't think I've read either of those stories yet, but I'll definitely check them out.

Mick

@Randal'Thor It could be both, but sufficient time would need to be allowed for participants to read through a work. Obviously, this would be easier for a poem or short book than it would be for something like War and Peace.

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