The Reading Room

user61230

9:00 PM

People get such a bad view of what Puzzling is from HNQ, to the point where people have actively complained about the site's existence on Meta.SE multiple times. So, trust me, I totally get that.

Mithrandir

That's why the sandbox was started.

b_jonas

@Shog9 As for what we want to promote, on Sci Fi, Jack B Nimble collects the opinion of people about that every three month and posts on the blog.

doppelgreener

@Emrakul from HNQ i just get puzzles that are somewhat infuriatingly obtuse and i'm sure that's not what the site's all about

like, they are versions of puzzles that would be edited significantly before they made it to publication in a book.

or rejected entirely.

Napoleon Wilson

@Emrakul Heh! That sounds like Movies & TV and Science Fiction & Fantasy during Star Wars or Game of Thrones season.

Eᴀsᴛᴇʀʟʏ Iʀᴋ

@Emrakul PPCG has ahd that also

51

Q: Trolls in our Halls

In Stack Exchange portal, it says: Stack Exchange is a fast-growing network of 112 question and answer sites on diverse topics from software programming to cooking to photography and gaming. We build libraries of high-quality questions and answers, focused on the most important topics in each...

Mithrandir

9:03 PM

Well, things like this never got on HNQ because people don't read them, because they're not easy.

DForck42

@NapoleonWilson lol

user61230

Hmn, I might post on Meta.SE about this.

Mithrandir

(self promotion alert)

Eᴀsᴛᴇʀʟʏ Iʀᴋ

@Mithrandir </shameless self-promotion>

ninj'aed lol

Mithrandir

Like seriously, this is a long answer (that didn't get enough votes).

Eᴀsᴛᴇʀʟʏ Iʀᴋ

9:05 PM

</shameless rand promotion>

Beastly Gerbil

self promotion :P

doppelgreener

Random Promotion would make a good James Bond villain name

b_jonas

Puzzle stuff. I made an easy one once. It must have worked because someone solved it and got the same solution as I intended.

Eᴀsᴛᴇʀʟʏ Iʀᴋ

well then

@b_jonas related fail puzzle

Beastly Gerbil

@b_jonas thats the point of the site I guess?

Eᴀsᴛᴇʀʟʏ Iʀᴋ

9:07 PM

the puzzle was stupidly complicated but I guessed the answer after about 30 seconds. I didn't even solve anything just made a guess

DForck42

@EᴀsᴛᴇʀʟʏIʀᴋ i dont' go to that site, but I'm confused as to how that question type was ever on-topic

Eᴀsᴛᴇʀʟʏ Iʀᴋ

meta.se? or PPCG

TL;DR: it wasn't. it was a brief fad that all the experienced users were against, but HNQ fed it

the tag is banned now

Napoleon Wilson

@b_jonas Is your profile picture supposed to be the bridge of Discovery One?

Eᴀsᴛᴇʀʟʏ Iʀᴋ

and the existing ones are either deleted or locked

b_jonas

@EᴀsᴛᴇʀʟʏIʀᴋ No thanks. I don't try to do English word puzzles, for the same reason as I don't try to make English puns and don't try to read English poetry.

doppelgreener

9:09 PM

@EᴀsᴛᴇʀʟʏIʀᴋ what was banned? O_O

b_jonas

@NapoleonWilson No, but that's one I haven't heard yet.

DForck42

@EᴀsᴛᴇʀʟʏIʀᴋ ahh

Eᴀsᴛᴇʀʟʏ Iʀᴋ

@doppelgreener code trolling

read the meta post

for obviosu reasons

doppelgreener

oh now i see

i thought this was still about puzzling

Eᴀsᴛᴇʀʟʏ Iʀᴋ

ah no

BESW

9:11 PM

@doppelgreener It is! That's why you're confused, see.

Mithrandir

Where's my Enlightened badge...?

Beastly Gerbil

@Mithrandir its gone dark...

Eᴀsᴛᴇʀʟʏ Iʀᴋ

TIL private betas show up on flair

Mithrandir

@EᴀsᴛᴇʀʟʏIʀᴋ I see it there

@BeastlyGerbil What has?

doppelgreener

@BESW I see. [doesn't see]

Beastly Gerbil

9:12 PM

the badge enlightenment (it was a bad pun)

Mithrandir

ohh

I really don't like the repcap

b_jonas

Easy word puzzle I made => komal.hu/forum/… (solution also in that thread)

Beastly Gerbil

Yeah me neither

Even though I haven't hit it yet

Napoleon Wilson

They should make that "IT" non-cap as fast a possible.

Eᴀsᴛᴇʀʟʏ Iʀᴋ

@Mithrandir yeah, I know

just noting that is shows up even if you aren't part of the private beta

Napoleon Wilson

9:14 PM

Oh, it seems in the big icon it is.

Eᴀsᴛᴇʀʟʏ Iʀᴋ

@Mithrandir yeah, I've lost 2 hundred or so to it

Napoleon Wilson

But there even the "L" is small. Hmpf. :'(

Eᴀsᴛᴇʀʟʏ Iʀᴋ

yeah

user61230

Shameless self-promotion

Eᴀsᴛᴇʀʟʏ Iʀᴋ

though you're right, I don't get why it's all caps on flair but all lowercase on the site topbar

Shog9

9:17 PM

back... for a few minutes, until the next set up updates finish installing.

@DVK-in-Florida I'm not saying this to denigrate anyone's efforts. But... Very few sites can muster the sort of volume as an automated system.

Mithrandir

O_o 283 rep not gained from the cap today... Ouch...

DVK-in-Florida

@Shog9 Can't disagree.

@Mithrandir The system is telling you to log out and go to real world </jeffA>

Mithrandir

@DVK-in-Florida It's mostly on stuff I posted yesterday.

Eᴀsᴛᴇʀʟʏ Iʀᴋ

@Mithrandir did you count manually? or is there a SEDE query for that

Mithrandir

manually

DVK-in-Florida

9:21 PM

@NapoleonWilson Were you around for Futurama? That was epic

Eᴀsᴛᴇʀʟʏ Iʀᴋ

ah okay

Napoleon Wilson

@DVK-in-Florida No, I don't think I even considered making a SciFi acount back then. But I've heard the stories.

Eᴀsᴛᴇʀʟʏ Iʀᴋ

@Mithrandir about 350 for me :/

jeff is telling us something methinks

Napoleon Wilson

Now people complain, though, that SE doesn't make cool events with freebies anymore. ;-)

b_jonas

@DVK-in-Florida Oh, that spike is legendary. I wasn't here for that, I only remember the Game of Thrones final, the SW Force Awakens, Fantastic Beasts, and SW Rogue One.

Eᴀsᴛᴇʀʟʏ Iʀᴋ

9:23 PM

what was futurama?

like, I know the series

but what happened?

b_jonas

(I also remember the release of the later Harry Potter books, namely Order, Prince, Hallows, and the translation of Hallows, but those were before the Sci Fi SE site.)

Napoleon Wilson

I was more referring to the "get this site off the HNQ, spoilers dude!" Meta.SE cries.

Eᴀsᴛᴇʀʟʏ Iʀᴋ

?

Napoleon Wilson

I don't think HNQ was around during Futurama, though.

b_jonas

17

Q: Possible Futurama Flood Warning, July 2nd

First I want to thank all of our awesome users who stepped up to the plate and helped out on a day that will live on in infamy, Answerama Day. The Facebook post got us a lot more eyes on the site, and it did result in a lot of interesting questions, but it also resulted in some solid stuff that i...

discussion futurama

@EᴀsᴛᴇʀʟʏIʀᴋ ^

Benjamin

9:25 PM

Can public beta questions hit HNQ?

Eᴀsᴛᴇʀʟʏ Iʀᴋ

@fi12 also, next time you're here, mind accepting my animal farm and 1984 answers to your questions?

@Benjamin yes

DVK-in-Florida

@NapoleonWilson Brett will forever be my hero.

Eᴀsᴛᴇʀʟʏ Iʀᴋ

that's what caused the code trolling angry meta post

DVK-in-Florida

@NapoleonWilson I don't even wanna think about what would have happened if THOSE two streams crossed.

@EᴀsᴛᴇʀʟʏIʀᴋ Rule of thumb: if it's called "trolling", it may not necessarily be a net positive.

Eᴀsᴛᴇʀʟʏ Iʀᴋ

giant marshmallow benders?

Mithrandir

9:27 PM

Yay, Enlightened... Noo, it came at the expense of a lot of rep from the cap... >.<

I like complaining :P

DVK-in-Florida

@Mithrandir That's what chat's for. Complaining and memes. And hopefully everyone's all out of memes.

Eᴀsᴛᴇʀʟʏ Iʀᴋ

what's the badge for?

Mithrandir

First to answer, accepted, score of 10

Eᴀsᴛᴇʀʟʏ Iʀᴋ

ah okay

Mithrandir

I'm the 5th user and 6th time

Eᴀsᴛᴇʀʟʏ Iʀᴋ

9:28 PM

then I'm waiting on an accept on that comic relief trope question

and then I get it

BESW

It says something about my exposures that "Comic Relief" makes me think of the charity first.

Mithrandir

@EᴀsᴛᴇʀʟʏIʀᴋ edit in 'so Poe must have made a mistake' in and i'll accept

Eᴀsᴛᴇʀʟʏ Iʀᴋ

sure

DForck42

@EᴀsᴛᴇʀʟʏIʀᴋ how do you see your own flair?

Eᴀsᴛᴇʀʟʏ Iʀᴋ

I was refraining from that but with OPs okay then

@DForck42 edit profile -> flair

> TL;DR: Not really feasible, she had to have some water. Either Poe made a mistake, this is a different universe, or Madeline became some sort of zombie who didn't need water.

@Mithrandir better?

DForck42

9:31 PM

@EᴀsᴛᴇʀʟʏIʀᴋ ahh. lit hasn't replaced any of mine, yet

Eᴀsᴛᴇʀʟʏ Iʀᴋ

ah, okay

you need over 200 rep for it to show up tho, idk your rep on this site

thanks @Mithrandir!

user61230

I've posted sort of a devils-advocate answer to the question of whether non-book/not-strictly-textual media should be on topic here. I'm curious to know what your guys' thoughts are - I'm not 100% sure I believe my own argument yet.

Mithrandir

I'm inching closer to be ably to edit on A51. After Lit goes Public, I think I'll get another 75, so...

@EᴀsᴛᴇʀʟʏIʀᴋ welcome

Eᴀsᴛᴇʀʟʏ Iʀᴋ

@Mithrandir wait where's the 65 from?

Mithrandir

75. Typo.

Eᴀsᴛᴇʀʟʏ Iʀᴋ

9:33 PM

where's that from?

for fulfilling a committment?

Mithrandir

>Follow through on your commitment +50
Referred user with a confirmed email address follows through on their commitment +25

Eᴀsᴛᴇʀʟʏ Iʀᴋ

oh cool

b_jonas

@Emrakul Ah... I was hoping for radio play soap operas, but nope

Mithrandir

I'd like to get another accept today, but that would probably involve voting, plus the annoying fact that there's nothing to answer... :P

So... someone ask harry-potter?

:P

Napoleon Wilson

@Emrakul Did you intentionally link to Fight Club the film and not the book?

Oh, it seems you did. Ouch, well that's where it stops.

Mithrandir

9:41 PM

Just merge Literature, SFF, M&TV and Anime and Manga into one site and name it 'Entertainement'.

b_jonas

@Mithrandir You'd have to merge it with Arqade too. There have been some questions about the back story of Pokémon in the games that are overlap between SFF and Arqade.

DVK-in-Florida

sigh and more bikeshedding. 6 upvotes for a "cool" answer that has zero shown research or citations of material or explanation of why it's even correct

DForck42

@Mithrandir please no

2

DVK-in-Florida

@b_jonas Backstories iirc are explicitly discouraged on Gaming site.

@Mithrandir Call it "Creative works". And frankly, I'm not that convinced that it's a bad idea. It has possible downsides, but also upsides.

user15026

@DVK-in-Florida Not entirely, no

user15026

9:46 PM

Stuff that has canon reasoning, yes. Stuff that's just "why did the devs do this thing" less so.

user15026

We take lore and story questions. They're not universally loved, but they're not OT.

Eᴀsᴛᴇʀʟʏ Iʀᴋ

@Mithrandir that's not magic realism, that's just magic

b_jonas

@DVK-in-Florida Hmm. Possible.

@Ash I see.

user61230

@NapoleonWilson Yeah. I'm talking about cultural discourse and literary value as presented in not-strictly-textual, or alternative-textual works.

b_jonas

Pokémon is funny because there's some of it that's on topic on each of Sci Fi, Movies&TV, Anime, Arquade, and Board Games (though no question is on topic on all of those at once).

DForck42

9:50 PM

am i being thick, but this edit seems a bit pointless: literature.stackexchange.com/review/suggested-edits/263

b_jonas

But then, I could say something similar about other large franchises: you could ask Star Wars questions on Sci Fi, Movies&TV, Arquade, Board Games, Role Playing Games, and now Literature too. (Not on Anime though I believe.)

user61230

@DForck42 It's not super high value, but it adds a little bit.

Napoleon Wilson

@Emrakul Yeah, and that's exactly what I have another site for. And that site certainly won't shove the engaging analysis here to be left with trivia and ID.

Eᴀsᴛᴇʀʟʏ Iʀᴋ

@DForck42 IMO anti-wall of text edits are always welcome

doppelgreener

@b_jonas And roleplaying games! There's at least three fan-made pokemon tabletop RPGs: pokemon tabletop adventures, pokerole, pokemon tabletop united.

Eᴀsᴛᴇʀʟʏ Iʀᴋ

9:52 PM

hey I hit max suggested edit reviews

DForck42

@EᴀsᴛᴇʀʟʏIʀᴋ it's 4 lines tall... hardly a wall of text

user61230

@NapoleonWilson Does M&TV handle meta-analysis and cultural analysis questions? I'm actually curious, I don't think I've ever been on the site.

Eᴀsᴛᴇʀʟʏ Iʀᴋ

cool

user61230

But also, consider that "How does Oxenfree construct its horror elements?" wouldn't be an appropriate question on Arqade.

b_jonas

@DForck42 I'm fine when people clear up my language in posts, at least the first few times in a question. (I might roll back half of it, and obviously I don't like if they edit war on it.) I'm not perfect in writing questions very readable, so there is often something to fix.

Eᴀsᴛᴇʀʟʏ Iʀᴋ

9:52 PM

@DForck42 yeah, thus "always". every little bit counts

Mithrandir

there, I just overhauled my magical realism ansewr

DForck42

@Emrakul i don't think it'd inherently be off-topic

Napoleon Wilson

@Emrakul Indeed it does, or as much as Literature is supposed to do.

b_jonas

@doppelgreener I see

Napoleon Wilson

(Disregarding the HNQ, to close the circle to an earlier discussion.)

@Emrakul That is indeed a lack in Arqade's scope, I agree.

DForck42

9:54 PM

typically on m&tv, if there's a non-movie source that's considered cannon, it's ok to post it as an answer to a question. asking questions about that piece of cannon, if it's not in relation to th emovie itself, gets dicier

doppelgreener

That's not really official parts of Pokemon, though.

user61230

@NapoleonWilson So, I think the question of scope goes beyond site overlap. Questions on video game literary analysis can't reasonably be appropriate here while questions on movie literary analysis aren't.

Napoleon Wilson

@DForck42 Well, he is actually talking about Fight Club the film, not the book, anyway. That's why I asked him if it was intentional.

b_jonas

@DForck42 Makes sense. Otherwise we could make a Porn SE, but rather than asking about porn, we'd just ask about anything else, because there's porn versions of anything.

Mithrandir

@EᴀsᴛᴇʀʟʏIʀᴋ better?

Eᴀsᴛᴇʀʟʏ Iʀᴋ

9:56 PM

a bit

the first bit is still irrelavent though

those stories aren't realistic really, just magic

Napoleon Wilson

@Emrakul Agreed, that's why we don't discuss video games here. ;-)

b_jonas

@NapoleonWilson Not even good ones?

Mithrandir

poof

user61230

@NapoleonWilson But the devil's advocate says that we should, because it counts as literature and has literary value ;)

Napoleon Wilson

@b_jonas Quality isn't of matter.

@Emrakul Indeed, and I've downvoted with extreme prejudice.

Eᴀsᴛᴇʀʟʏ Iʀᴋ

9:57 PM

@Mithrandir cool, thanks

Napoleon Wilson

Of course that's only my own opinion, but I'll defend it to death.

Eᴀsᴛᴇʀʟʏ Iʀᴋ

wasn't my downvote btw

Mithrandir

But you can reverse that -2 that I got and bring me back up to over the max :P

DForck42

@Emrakul so, I'm working on an internal definition of literature for myself that's a bit clearer. basically, if it's a type of media that can't be consumed via words in a print fasion (a la printed or on an e-reader), then it's probably off-topic

b_jonas

@NapoleonWilson That's the principle. But recently there was an on topic story ID question closed on Sci Fi just because it was asking for a Harry Potter fanfic, and everyone knows that most Harry Potter fanfics suck, and we hate them.

user61230

9:58 PM

I think, when I get some time later in the day, I'm going to post a couple detailed self-answered questions about video game analysis and literary theory, just to test the waters. I'd be okay with them being off-topic, but we need a couple good questions to look at and say, "that was an interesting question and interesting answer, and it's still inappropriate for Literature."

b_jonas

(Yes, there was some other excuse given for why to close.)

user61230

@DForck42 I don't think we should try to define "Literature." We're not going to make much progress doing that. What we can define are the types of questions we want to field here.

DForck42

@b_jonas linky?

Napoleon Wilson

yesterday, by Napoleon Wilson

@DForck42 The only reason I supported this proposal was the fact that it's no competition to the sites I love. ;-)

^ I know that's highly personal, but so be it.

b_jonas

@DForck42 Hmm. So radio plays are off topic?

DVK-in-Florida

9:59 PM

@b_jonas I am guessing that proposal won't have any trouble finding followers on Area51

DForck42

@Emrakul that's why i said it's my own personal definition, i don't intend of enforcing it other than via downvotes on questions that i perceive to be off-topic

@b_jonas if there's a script or novelization, a la hitch hiker's or ward of the worlds, then THOSE are on-topic, imho

user61230

That's fair, then!

Mithrandir

Poof, irrelevant answer gone, deleted, and better answer up. I like doing that if I messed up at the beginning :P

DVK-in-Florida

@b_jonas :( And that's partly why I chose Florida (and earlier, exile). Too much hate, not enough acceptance and willingness to live and let live.

Catija

I'm guessing this is what you're discussing but I feel like we're trying to be too inclusive... I can understand poetry but I really don't get song lyrics... same with plots of video games etc....

2

b_jonas

10:02 PM

@DForck42 (deleted) scifi.stackexchange.com/q/149162/4918

BESW

@Catija I think the issue is we're making decisions too fast.

DForck42

@b_jonas i can't see it, not enough rep

BESW

I've seen this on other sites.

HDE 226868

@Catija I agree with this. A lot.

user61230

I think BESW is right, actually. Why are we trying to preclude these questions before we've seen examples of good ones?

BESW

10:03 PM

Our first attempts to define scope are all over the place, because we're imagining questions.

DForck42

@Emrakul yup

BESW

And sometimes there's a lot of debate and heated exchanges.

DVK-in-Florida

@Catija Why? There are some video game stories that are (sub/o)bjectively higher quality than some "pure" literary work. Ditto for screenplays.

BESW

But usually when an actual question comes down the tubes, it's pretty clear what we need to do with it.

DForck42

i think part of the issue is we've got a lot of cooks in the kitchen (aka experienced users)

Mithrandir

10:03 PM

@b_jonas give me 3k and I'll be able to see it

BESW

And often that means reversing whatever theoretical policy we'd already made.

DVK-in-Florida

@Catija And song lyrics are poetry. With added music.

Mithrandir

Oh cool, I'm on this list...

Catija

@DVK-in-Florida Because to me, literature is in a BOOK... that stuff isn't in a book... half of it isn't even actually written down.

BESW

2 hours ago, by Helmar

Let our definition of literature grow meta decision by meta decision and not force it into one giant post about what constitutes literature.

b_jonas

10:04 PM

So, should I ask bad questions that you close, in order to help define what's on topic for the site, by examples?

DForck42

@BESW yeah, I'm think we might close some of those and say "it's too early"

BESW

@b_jonas Artificially bad questions, no.

That'd give false data.

DForck42

@b_jonas no, but ask good (or at least ok) questions that challenge the scope of the site, a la my obscurus question

Catija

@DVK-in-Florida I get the argument... but I reject it.

DVK-in-Florida

@Catija So, you're OK with song lyrics that were published? (btw, "book" for this site currently includes online and e-books)?

HDE 226868

10:06 PM

@DVK-in-Florida Biiiiiiiiig difference.

Benjamin

@DVK-in-Florida Would screenplays that are read legitimate content here?

DVK-in-Florida

@b_jonas Yep. Precisoin through trollery

HDE 226868

How many songs tell a narrative? There are plenty of ballads, yes, but i'd go back to something like "Call Me Maybe".

user61230

There are a lot of people who consider song lyrics literature. Bob Dylan received the Nobel Prize in it.

BESW

Rock lyrics were a significant part of high school literature classes in the 70s. [grin]

HDE 226868

10:07 PM

@Emrakul That's been brought up.

Napoleon Wilson

I knew someone would come with Dylan. ;-)

user61230

It's sort of the quintessential example ;)

b_jonas

@BESW Um, in what country?

DVK-in-Florida

@Catija You haven't explained why. What objectively makes Vysotsky's song lyrics different from poetry book?

BESW

@b_jonas Parts of America, for sure.

Napoleon Wilson

10:08 PM

@b_jonas I think he's joking. ;-)

Mithrandir

@Mithrandir "I know what that means, maybe just add it to the question" — Easterly Irk 19 mins ago

@EᴀsᴛᴇʀʟʏIʀᴋ obsolete

DVK-in-Florida

@HDE226868 Elaborate please. What IS the difference?

HDE 226868

@DVK-in-Florida My objection is that most songs don't tell narratives.

There's no plot.

It's just a bunch of complex sounds that we humans enjoy.

DForck42

@HDE226868 not all poems have a plot

DVK-in-Florida

@Benjamin I'd say yes. I can POSSIBLY accept the argument that the screenplay format is so special it makes it not literature (I disagree, but that argument at least has objective merit)

b_jonas

10:09 PM

@HDE226868 That's not a requirement for literature. Like DFr says.

user61230

@HDE226868 There are a lot of songs that tell stories, and not all poems have plot.

BESW

Here's the thing: defining "literature" is an age-old way to separate the haves from the have-nots. Like "standard English," literature is historically a self-confirming concept that people who go to the good schools learn the good things, QED, and whatever isn't taught in the good schools isn't good.

Benjamin

@DVK-in-Florida Well, what distinguishes that from Shakespeare's plays?

user61230

Folk music, especially modern folk music. Hamilton. Hadestown. Anaïs Mitchell's XOA album. Many black rappers tell stories.

BESW

If this site is going to buy into that malarky, I'm out.

DVK-in-Florida

10:10 PM

@HDE226868 The fact that a large number for a certain format is crap isn't a good reason to make the format offtopic. Fanfics were deemed ontopic.

Benjamin

@BESW Are you serious?

HDE 226868

@DForck42 I did not say "all".

b_jonas

@Benjamin That's easy. Shakespeare plays are in poem form, not prose.

DVK-in-Florida

@HDE226868 90% of everything is crap.

HDE 226868

@b_jonas According to what definition?

Catija

10:11 PM

@BESW There is a huge difference between saying "only good books can be discussed" and saying "song lyrics aren't literature".

2

BESW

@Benjamin I'm absolutely serious. If this site uses literature as a cultural cudgel, I want no part of it. I'm saying this as a print designer who works in a confluence of oral and written tradition.

HDE 226868

If someone enters the site and thinks, "Ah, Literature Stack Exchange", are they going to think of songs?

DVK-in-Florida

@HDE226868 And many many song lyrics tell a narrative as much as, or more so, than most poems. My question isn't "how are song lyrics different from novels". It's "How are song lyrics different from poetry"

user61230

@HDE226868 If they don't, that wouldn't make songs off topic.

HDE 226868

@Emrakul Because?

BESW

10:12 PM

So here's the thing: the medium is separate from the message.

user61230

@HDE226868 Because topicality isn't a matter of what someone who has no experience with the site thinks.

Mithrandir

Someone suggest 5 edits

BESW

A question about storytelling in songs is on topic, a question about sampling probably isn't.

DForck42

@HDE226868 your argument would seem to indicate for something, at least a poem, to be on-topic it should include a narrative. poems are a piece of literature but don't always have a narrative

DVK-in-Florida

@Benjamin That's why I disagree with that argument :)

HDE 226868

10:13 PM

@DVK-in-Florida I'm not trying to make an argument from quality here. Looking at the lyrics to Call Me Maybe, is there anything remotely like, say, The Grapes of Wrath?

Benjamin

@BESW Okay, I think I am slightly more liberal in my definition of literature than you, but I think I can agree with you that I want to limit it to things that are read.

HDE 226868

@DForck42 That is, pretty much, my argument.

DVK-in-Florida

@Emrakul Virtually entire universe of Russian/Soviet bard music. Most ballads.

BESW

@Benjamin Then you're not listening to me, I guess. I think oral tradition would be a valid addition to this site.

HDE 226868

@Emrakul I know that, but I'm saying that I think that would apply to most people.

DForck42

10:13 PM

@HDE226868 so you also think poems are off-topic, or only ones that have a narrative are on-topic?

Benjamin

@BESW Oh, I definitely agree, otherwise The Iliad and The Odyssey would be off-topic.

user61230

@HDE226868 That doesn't make it correct.

HDE 226868

@DForck42 I think the latter, but I'll fully admit that I can't justify why.

BESW

It's not about what the subject looks like. It's about whether the subject can be dealt with through literary lenses.

HDE 226868

@Emrakul I don't want to be annoying - and I apologize if this comes off that way - but: Why?

BESW

10:15 PM

If you can ask a literary question about a thing, then literary questions about the thing are on topic. That doesn't make non-literary questions about the thing on topic too.

DForck42

@HDE226868 lol, ok

Shog9

Why are we trying to preemptively decide what's on topic here again?

2 hours ago, by Helmar

Let our definition of literature grow meta decision by meta decision and not force it into one giant post about what constitutes literature.

DVK-in-Florida

@BESW Um. I'm confused now. Is your argument that songs are not literature, or merely that songs lyrics are (and ontopic) BUT that non-lyrics questions are offtopic? I'm fully onboard with the latter.

Shog9

If you find a post problematic, bring it up on meta and make a reasoned argument.

DForck42

@Shog9 I'm mostly having fun picking apart hde's opinion

Benjamin

10:16 PM

@DVK-in-Florida As am I.

DVK-in-Florida

@Mithrandir Change all instances of "a" to "the".

BESW

@DVK-in-Florida The latter. It's not a hard concept to wrap one's head around when we stop trying to be "all-or-nothing" about entire categories of how a thing is presented.

DVK-in-Florida

@HDE226868 Bohemian Rhapsody.

DForck42

@Shog9 i think at this point it's gotten more into the philosophical side of what makes something literature, we haven't posted any new questions one way or the other

b_jonas

@HDE226868 Arany János translated two of them in poetic form. He might not be perfect, but he's not so stupid as to make such a huge mistake as thinking those are poetry when they aren't. He could actually read English decently.

HDE 226868

10:17 PM

@DVK-in-Florida Hold on a sec. I'm working on a question and I hope it demonstrates that I'm wrong.

user61230

@HDE226868 Because what is or isn't a question we should accept shouldn't be subject to what the body of people unfamiliar with the site would think. It should be subject to what we think.

user61230

We, as a site, get to decide. And limiting "literature" to just one type of medium is harmfully limiting, both in the scope of culture that the site can talk about, and the people to which it can appeal.

b_jonas

@DForck42 I'm working on it.

DVK-in-Florida

@BESW OK, so looks like there seems to be a consnsus? Everyone here seems to agree that song lyrics are OK, and song OTHER stuff is offtopic? Why were we arguing again? :)

DForck42

@b_jonas please don't

we don't need it at the moment

instead, find a good question that relates to that and ASK it

BESW

10:20 PM

@DVK-in-Florida Because we're victims of a cultural need to reduce discussions to false dichotomies and logical extremes.

Benjamin

@BESW That is unfortunately, the society we live in.

BESW

Speak for yourself. [wry] It's a society I live in.

DForck42

@Benjamin just reminded me of a rise against song, lol

Shog9

mmm... rye

BESW

I'm coming at this whole site from the perspective of a print designer whose specialty is navigating contact zones between Western and Pasifika cultures.

That includes having one foot outside the Western literary ouroboros and seeing how very limited its concept of itself is.

b_jonas

10:23 PM

@BESW Western in the broad sense?

BESW

Yes.

Mithrandir

uh oh

It's 12:30 AM and I have to get up in 6 hours

night peeps

BESW

I work with cultures where entire stories are told through single-panel sequential art (yes, that's a thing).

Eᴀsᴛᴇʀʟʏ Iʀᴋ

@Mithrandir night!

DForck42

@BESW how's this different than, say, how a manga or comic are constructed?

or is that what you're talking about?

BESW

10:26 PM

@DForck42 The entire story is told in what we'd call a single panel.

DForck42

@BESW oh ok

do you have an example?

BESW

Trying to dig up a good one. Pasifika art is not always easy to find well-represented online.

DForck42

@BESW :-D

BESW

They share some epistemological ground with Renaissance church art.

HDE 226868

Test song lyrics question:

0

Q: In "Bullet the Blue Sky", what is the symbolism of Jacob and the Angel?

U2's song "Bullet the Blue Sky" was inspired by Bono's trip to EL Salvadore in 1986, and America's role on the Salvadorean Civil War. As he said in an interview, And it upset me as a person who read the Scriptures, to think that Christians in America were supporting this kind of thing, this k...

song-lyrics u2

And I've changed my mind about song lyrics, for the record. I think that they can work, and I can definitely see lyric symbolism questions becoming interesting.

DJMcMayhem

10:31 PM

@HDE226868 regardless of how people feel about lyrics questions, that is a fantastic question.

HDE 226868

@DJMcMayhem I appreciate that.

BESW

@DForck42 This isn't a bad presentation.

DForck42

@BESW neat

Eᴀsᴛᴇʀʟʏ Iʀᴋ

@DJMcMayhem hey, are you going to accept my enders game answer?

DJMcMayhem

That's one of my favorite songs of all time, I'd love to answer it if I can

BESW

10:33 PM

A storyboard contains all the significant literal and symbolic elements of the story in a single space. You know how manga sometimes spends many panels showing lots of different ways of considering a single moment? Storyboards do the opposite.

They use a single visual space to contain the entire story.

It's not sequential art, it's simultaneous art.

doppelgreener

@EᴀsᴛᴇʀʟʏIʀᴋ no need to rush it, it's been only a day

Shog9

@HDE226868 nicely done

Eᴀsᴛᴇʀʟʏ Iʀᴋ

wait wat I'm stuck on mobile view for the main site

I can view meta normally though

Shog9

@EᴀsᴛᴇʀʟʏIʀᴋ click mobile link in footer?

BESW

Note also that they were originally architectural elements, and only became portable as something to sell to tourists. This history of that shift is complex and fascinating.

Eᴀsᴛᴇʀʟʏ Iʀᴋ

10:35 PM

@Shog9 epic, taht worked

thanks!

DForck42

@BESW interesting

BESW

@doppelgreener I got someone leaving a comment reminding me to accept an answer after half an hour and only one answer.

doppelgreener

@BESW that's too hasty

BESW

I flagged it and it went away.

DForck42

@HDE226868 i disagree with your song-lyrics tag...

HDE 226868

10:36 PM

@Shog9 I went for a run and listened to some U2. The question followed all on its own.

@DForck42 What would you suggest?

Shog9

bullet-the-blue-sky?

DForck42

@HDE226868 i think u2 and symbolism work well enough

Shog9

bullet-the-blue-sky the-joshua-tree u2

BESW

@DForck42 A Japanese artist who fled Japan prior to WWII immersed himself in the Palauan culture and got permission to respectfully commoditise what had previously been secret knowledge, so the local people would be better able to adapt to a tourist-based economy without being unduly exploited.

DForck42

@Shog9 that also works

HDE 226868

10:38 PM

@Shog9 Suggestion taken, though I'm keeping symbolism.

DForck42

@BESW heh, that's interesting

Shog9

It would be kind of amusing if this site ended up with an extensive catalog of song lyric exegesis

one might even call that a... genius idea

Eᴀsᴛᴇʀʟʏ Iʀᴋ

bad pun detected