@AlUmmatمجاهد Do you know about arabic sources which mention rambam as Muslim?

@goldPseudo Do you know of such?

@Ali I am still not sure who rambam is, I recall once I was told but I forgot. Either no I do not know of such

Mosheh ben Maimon, called Moses Maimonides and also known as Mūsā ibn Maymūn, or RaMBaM, was a preeminent medieval Spanish, Sephardic "Jewish" philosopher.

abbreviated as Rabbi Moshhe b maimon=Rambam

@Daniel Hi

@MoriDoweedhYaAgob Hi

May I know what happened to the grand sons of Rambam?

@Ali Hi

I have no idea

His son was a great scholar like he was

I don't know about his grandsons

RaMbaM's son Rabbeinu Avrohom hahHaseed became nagid of the Egyptian jewish community after his father died. He was 18/19 and ppl didn't like him because he was young n because he wasn't from Egypt he was from Spain. His son Rabbeinu Doweedh I think his name was and he was not liked even more. They took him out of nagid office but he got his position back. Them his son I forgot his name, when he got into nagid office they kicked him out n I think he moved to Syria or morocco.

Assalaamalikum

ref: to above how can one say after the tanachic era that prphecy is ended, when there is a "that" prophet that has come and the masih, .. @Daniel ?

@Ali Rambam was undoubtedly influenced by Islam (whatever @MoriDoweedhYaAgob would have you believe)

But there is no credible evidence that he ever was a Muslim himself

@Ali I don't know what you mean by "that" prophet

Also, it is not that prophecy has ended

It could be that when the Messiah comes, prophecy will return

but for now, we do not have prophecy

@Ali Ah, going back and looking at this comment in context, I better understand what you are asking

But I don't understand why you think that the Talmud shouldn't be able to tell us things that aren't in the Torah?

Especially since the scope of the book of prophets is the prophetic era

and doesn't continue

The Torah gives no indication that prophecy will continue, so it's not like the Talmud is contradicting the Torah. It is telling us a fact that the Torah doesn't address in either direction.

It is pretty much natural in the history of Allah's religion to send prophets for guidqance of mankind , so until a prophet himself declares an end of the prophecy , the prophecy cant end , as its so obvious from the torah that prophecy will continue.

More over if the torah is silent that does not mean a later source can put an end to it, silence is not approval

in case of silence we refer to past history

@Ali mechon-mamre.org/p/pt/pt0530.htm#12

so the crux is that only a divinely appointed figure can claim an end to the prophecy

The Torah says "It is not in heaven." meaning that it is now up to man to interpret

like Muhammad pbuh ,

and we will no longer hear directly from God

@Daniel there is a story on that too

@Ali What do you mean there is a story on that?

@Daniel here it is :judaismtoislam.blogspot.in/2013/02/…

This verse was controversial even among rabbis

@Ali Yes, this is how the Talmud works

but in the end, we hold that it means that God no longer directly influences our interpretation of Torah

Again R. Eliezer then said to the Sages, "If the Halakhah agrees with me, let it be proved from heaven." Sure enough, a divine voice cried out, "Why do you dispute with R. Eliezer, with whom the Halakhah always agrees?" R. Joshua stood up and protested: "The Torah is not in heaven!" (Deut. 30:12). We pay no attention to a divine voice because long ago at Mount Sinai You wrote in your Torah at Mount Sinai, `After the majority must one incline'. (Ex. 23:2)"

Furthermore, in the end of that story in the Talmud, not quoted in the link you sent me, the heavenly voice agrees with Rabbi Joshua

@Daniel So you cant be sure at all that prophecy has ended?

@Ali What do you mean "can't be sure"? All of religion involves some element of faith

But if we follow the axioms that Judaism accepts

then prophecy has ended

@Daniel Your interpretation of torah or the supposed "axioms" are fallible

@Ali So are yours

That's how religion works

The point is that the past history of prophets and the core of the purpose of prophecy all point out pretty much obviously that the prophecy has not ended , it would only end if a Prophet would explicity declare its end. Like Prophet Muhammad pbuh

@Ali Yeah, I get your point. That's the Muslim view, and that's fine. But that's not how Jews interpret those verses in the Torah

e.g: a fundamental of religion cant be changed , eg: some person later cant claim that now idolatry is allowed

or that monothiesm now has ended

christians would claim that

@Ali Says who? That wouldn't be allowed in Islam (nor would it be allowed in Judaism), but who says that some generic religion couldn't change?

that is not a part of the definition of religion

trinity , it was an alien concept to islam , but the later generations of Christianity accepted it even if it was not found in the gospel

see how fallible mans \ rabbis\preiest make so much corruption in religion

@Ali According to Islam it is corruption. According to Judaism/Christianity, it is continued revelation

So you can say that the rabbis made stuff up, but the fact of the matter is that they are far more knowledgeable about Torah than you or I, so I trust them

@Daniel Dont you see this flawed understanding led the christians to become like pagans

and rejected Islamic monothiesm of all the past prophets

"but the fact of the matter is that they are far more knowledgeable about Torah than you or I, so I trust them"

?

Do you trust your rabbis for your own salavation

I too dont trust my scholars for salavation

@Ali Yes, that is how Judaism works. We respect and trust those who are more knowledgeable than we are

Allah has given you intellect to discern the wrong from right

@Ali And he has given them more than he has given me

But in any case, I don't think that your arguments follow

unless you accept Islamic axioms

which I don't

@Daniel Being more knowledgable does not mean that they are guided , even the christian monks spend their entire lives in monasteries etc , yet they may die in the belief in trinity and loose their salavation inshallah

@Ali That's why I don't follow them

In religion there are actually no axioms, as axioms are something which is obvious and acceptable by all

2.A statement or proposition on which an abstractly defined structure is based.

I am using the word in that sense

See at the time of Abraham pbuh there were many people who disbelieved in him and rather believed the pagan priests whom they considered to be more knowledgeble , so they became blinded and did not even reason and tested the arguments of Abraham pbuh.

@Daniel even in that case who will decide what statements or propositions define the structure?, A complete 100% consensus is binding for an axiom to be called as axiom.

And there were many Jewish rabbis themselves who recognized Muhammad pbuh as a prophet

@Ali That is not true

There are none

Did they become less knowledgeble because they accepted Muhammad pbuh

@Ali And you are right about that, but we hold that the teachings of the rabbis do come from God through an oral tradition that was given over to Moses at Mount Sinai

@Ali If they did, they were already not knowledgeable. But I do not know of any such rabbis who we hold as authoritative, nor do I believe that there are any

en.islamway.net/article/8690

@Ali When I say "rabbis" I am not talking about rabbis in the sense that we have them today

I am talking about Talmudic rabbis

I am sure that there have been rabbis who have converted to Islam since

but we do not hold them as authoritative

Also there is an example of tabatai tzevi, he was a very reputed rabbi , who even claimed to be a messiah , but later reverted to Islam with hundreds of his followers

like now a chabad rabbi claimed to be a messiah and yet a Jew

@Ali First of all, Shabtai Tzevi was a false Messiah and is totally rejected by Jews

he is considered to have been very evil for the Jews

@Ali With respect to the Lubavitcher Rebbe, that is a very controversial subject among Jews

Ofcourse because of his acceptance of Islam , all rejected him

But it should be clear that he never claimed to be the messiah

It was only some of his followers afterwards who claimed that he is the messiah

@Ali No, they rejected him because he claimed to be the Messiah

and clearly was not

@Daniel He was so learned that thousands of Jews actually believed him to be messiah

@Ali Yes, but then he was proved not to be

Ofcourse he was not, but see the fact how the Jews of the time followed him in large numbers

@Ali What is the point you are trying to make?

@Daniel One should not blindly trust the rabbis and think that they are guided, their knowledge alone does not even matter

@Ali We do not blindly trust them. Their rulings have withstood 2000 years of scrutiny

How can you scrutinize the rabbis who did not accept Muhammad pbuh as the final prophet ? Its very clear that once the 'people of knowledge ' ae grounded in knowledge it is very hard for them to accept the facts which contradict their knowldefe

Do read this article

en.islamway.net/article/8690

Need to go now

@Ali It's very simple. Some people accept Mohammad as the final prophet. Those people are Muslims. Some people do not accept him as the final prophet. Those people are Jews

@Daniel in what way are you saying RaMbaM was influenced by islam? Which Islamic philosophy did he go by? As a matter of fact Muslims read Morah navuchim because it was a book of great intellect n it was all truth. Also Ibn cenna was a Muslim by religion but not so by philosophy. Him Ibn Azra RaMbaM and another Arab Christian philosophers all learned from each other under the branch of Aristotle.

RaMbaM was indeed influenced by islam by making books and writing letters do combat Islamic propaganda and theology on Jews. And his main targets was a jew apostate to islam from Yaman. He was aiding muslims in con strewing jewish texts and messages to fit Islamic ones in order to prove islam is real

and then came the fake messiah in Yaman at the same time which caused the jewish c

cmunity to go into panic. Some were being forced into islam and were being told by uneducated rabbis that they are no longer jewish and all their misSwoth were a waste n all their prayers were a waste

That is how RaMbaM was influenced by islam. He was combatting it so that Jews would have less troubles in their lives especially in Yaman

← 12 messages moved from Islam

@MoriDoweedhYaAgob you are right that Rambam opposed Jews becoming Muslim

but his thought was also influenced by Muslim thought

Yes that influence is called reading Islamic sources and writing against them although he couldn't do it so vividly because he would be killed especially as he was the main Doctor physician of Egypt and worked in the sultans house

However, he added nothing new to jewish thought or religion

@MoriDoweedhYaAgob I'm not suggesting that he added anything new

Then what was the influence?

I'm suggesting that his interpretation of Torah was influenced by an Islamic version of Aristotelianism

outside influence does not invalidate thought

Because Ashkenazim were influenced by the Christian empire in Italy n Constantinople and indeed added new things because they lost ther mesorah

Rather, it provides another angle from which to look at it

@MoriDoweedhYaAgob I'm not talking about Ashkenazim, and I prefer that you not needlessly slander them

Not true because muslims believe in shaitans and dibuk while rambam doesn't

he says its not true n they don't exist

@MoriDoweedhYaAgob Did I ever say that Rambam is a Muslim or that Rambam believes everything that Muslims believe?

It's not an attack on Rambam to say that he was influenced by the culture around him. That's something praiseworthy

So I'm waiting for proof on him being influenced by muslims. Because there is nothing there

@MoriDoweedhYaAgob I've already sent you this link which is an entire research paper dedicated to answering that

I can give a research paper saying holocauast fake

there are many claims bout rambam because he is famous throughout the witls

@MoriDoweedhYaAgob Ok, so why don't you read the paper?

for. Arabs n Jews

@MoriDoweedhYaAgob Well if you will just reject any proof that I give, I cannot argue with you

I know the claims already. They are coming from an Ashkenazi way of thinking because they are assuming Ashkenazi is real deal

You are not giving good proof

@MoriDoweedhYaAgob That is a secular research paper

Has nothing to do with ashkenazi/sephardi

@MoriDoweedhYaAgob What would be an example of good proof?

i can give you hHachom faur's papers and you compare the. To what is in your paper

iys day m night

Thas the point it's secular n looking at "mainstream" judaism which is predinently Ashkenazi based m comparing it to rbam

@MoriDoweedhYaAgob Ok here's the problem. You reject secular papers. You will reject Ashkenazi opinions because you think they are corrupted. The only opinions you will accept are the ones that already agree with you

Good proof is seforim from that time period showing rambam used Muslim philosophy or was influenced by it

Mill a

Ill accept Ashkenazi proof as long as its good

@MoriDoweedhYaAgob What is good?

Just something that agrees with you

I can't argue with you

Good research from that time period

It is common sense to say that he was influenced by Islam because he lived among Muslims. The burden of proof that he wasn't is on you

accepting doesn't mean agreeing

The burden of proof is on me when you give me good sources for a claim

You need to define in what way he was influenced by islam

if it was changing holochoth then bring proof. If it was commentaries on torah then bring proof also he didn't write commentaries on torah

if it was learning the gamoro then bring proof because he obviously learned like the Jaonim since they agree with what he says in most places

@MoriDoweedhYaAgob I'm not saying that he changed halacha. I'm saying that his philosophy was influenced by Islam

Which likely had an effect on his interpretation of halacha

No it was influenced only by Aristotle just like Aristotle influenced the Arab Muslim n Christians of that era

and he only took Aristotle to a certain point everything else he dropped

midla

@MoriDoweedhYaAgob Why is the idea that Rambam was affected by Islam so troubling for you, but the idea that he was affected by Aristotle is not?

philosophers in Egypt no matters of religion were going on philosophy n less bout religion

only rambam incorporated the ideas he learned from Aristotle the rest were saying religion didn't matter

It's not bothering being proof then I will see

mad for now he n the rest of the religious scholars in those areas were influenced by Aristotle. Rbam rejected Aristotle idea about HaShem and called him n apikorus but islam accepted it

same with Christian

room topic changed to Islam and Judaism dialogue: (no tags)