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12:15 AM
@silvermaple Is it something you can look up, to see if it's right?
 
7人!
眠い・・・
寝る
じゃね
ノシ
 
12:31 AM
おやすみ〜
 
 
1 hour later…
ssb
1:32 AM
Wow, in looking up 悲しむ for the questin hat was just posted I found it can also be 愛しむ
strange homophones in japanese.
 
1:51 AM
Hehe. That reminds me of how 愛 and 哀 both have the on'yomi アイ
 
ssb
and 哀しむ also exists
 
2:09 AM
Ok, so in this Wikipedia article... ja.wikipedia.org/wiki/…
It says: 日本語以外でも日本語の長音に当たる表記を波ダッシュを用いて用いる。
Is that grammatical?
 
ssb
seems redundant to me
oh wait
 
Well, there's two things I don't get.
 
ssb
yeah that's wrong
 
When you say redundant, you mean 用いて用いる?
The two をs in a row seem weird to me.
 
ssb
yes, and then i noticed the double を
ok looking at it closer and thinking very carefully it might actually be ok
if you take out the strange part you get just 本語以外でも日本語の長音に当たる表記を用いる。
 
2:15 AM
I was thinking it might be nested
 
ssb
i have no idea what the grammatical term for it is but
波ダッシュを用いて
yeah, would that be called a nested clause or?
 
Since there's two verbs, each verb assigns one を role
Is what you're saying
 
ssb
whatever, anyway if you think of it like that then it does make sense
 
Hmm
 
ssb
日本語以外でも日本語の長音に当たる表記を、波ダッシュを用いて、用いる。
so it'd be like
絵をペンを使って描く
so while i guess it's grammatically acceptable I would say it's an example of poor writing.
 
2:19 AM
I might want to turn that into a question
I'm worried I'm flooding JLU with questions :-)
I started bracketing the sentence
I want to find software to render parse trees
At the risk of repeating myself...
I like phpSyntaxTree, but it doesn't support Japanese :-(
 
ssb
ask as many questions as you want
no problem with that
 
・・・表記を [ 波ダッシュを用いて ] 用いる。
 
ssb
yeah that makes sense, i was thrown off initially by the double 用いる
 
Me too.
I'm not used to parsing sentences like this
 
ssb
grammar questions make me realize how much I need to get a proper Japanese linguistics textbook
 
2:28 AM
I was thinking about that too
I'm still missing some basics, I think, so I'm trying to concentrate on filling in those gaps when I can...
But I really like when I understand everything at a deep level
Which sometimes I do, in Japanese, but often I don't
 
ssb
Exactly, I feel so useless when I can't think of Japanese at the same conceptual level that I can think of English
 
3:03 AM
I'm reading about sentences with two をs
Apart from the nested/embedded clause
There is apparently also XをAに、YをBに保存する
 
ssb
ah yeah I've seen that pattern before
 
So now I have two double を patterns to put in my notes.
I know that conceptually the key is that there's one verb for each を
and I assume in that other example it can be considered "there", but omitted
 
ssb
yes, the second example is just letting two を share one verb
 
XをAに[保存する] + YをBに保存する
 
ssb
it's like saying save 1 to jpg and 2 to png
 
3:10 AM
Yeah, I think the technical term is gapping
(English permits forward gapping, while Japanese permits backward gapping)
(intuitively obvious, I guess?)
 
 
1 hour later…
4:19 AM
I guess if I see two をs in a row without a verb, I can take it as a signal that it's an embedded clause
...unless it seems like gapping
 
ssb
4:47 AM
maybe I should start using lang 8
 
Lang-8 is run by Japanese people? I never knew that.
 
Yeah, there's a bit of a focus on J-E user pairings, I think
 
ssb
up to now I've just been talking to random people on other sites
not anything diary focused
 
I like the site, but I don't use it enough. I'm learning in lots of other ways, though
 
It's a nice site.
 
4:48 AM
People post all sorts of things as 日記
 
I don't use it regularly but when I want to get my composition torn up I post stuff there.
Though actually no one really does much composition stuff, usually it's just fixing my broken grammar.
But in the cases my grammar is somehow correct, it's nice to get the 'style' corrections.
(This is me on there if you want to friend me, btw: lang-8.com/199095 )
(Not like I'll be correcting any of your entries though :P )
Hah. You use it way more than I do!
I usually only get one or two corrections on my posts. Usually because they are friggin' confusing.
 
I haven't posted lately, though
Hehe, I just got 言いよう and 言おう confused.
Stupid brain
 
ssb
5:06 AM
言おうとしても言いようがない
 
5:26 AM
When I read my own sentences, I can tell they don't sound right
 
ssb
how often do you speak to native speakers?
 
Lately, not very much.
I type to native speakers sometimes :-)
Does that count?
 
ssb
typing counts!
communication in general
communicate and read as much as possible
that's my motto
 
I do read a lot.
I've been getting a lot better at understanding stuff. :-)
And my vocabulary's been getting better
 
 
1 hour later…
6:53 AM
When I say あいにく or 残念ながら I feel like I'm apologizing to the listener
If I want to say "unfortunately" without being apologetic, like
If it was unfortunate for me but not for the listener
Is either word appropriate, or is there something better to say?
Maybe I'll make that a question.
運が悪い maybe...
Well, I'm going with 残念ながら for now
 
 
1 hour later…
8:02 AM
What websites do you use to look up stock phrases? Currently, I've been given some stock phrases, and I'm trying to look them up.
For example, I'm trying to see whether 担当者様 is 担当者 plus 様, or an actual phrase.
 
8:16 AM
(Well, not given some stock phrases, but a text that includes what I suspect are stock phrases)
 
 
1 hour later…
9:29 AM
@AndrewGrimm you can try alc.co.jp
I think it works quite well for searching for phrases
 
 
3 hours later…
12:05 PM
I saw 米国 used on a certain CD
Is the usage of that common?
 
12:37 PM
Just heard about the Swedish word (or un-word) ogooglebar.
 
ssb
1:27 PM
@小太郎 that's the way you see it used in formal situations so yes it's pretty common. 米 is America's designated kanji.
 
What about other words usually written in kana? Would they also get changed to a word with kanji instead for formal situations?
 
ssb
well 米国 isn't アメリカ written in kanji
米国 is べいこく
but
that's not really the point i realize
 
yea I know
I'm currently thinking of two cases
1. Where the word is usually written in hirigana
such as 成る
and 2. When the word is usually written in katakana
 
ssb
to me I get more of a feeling of old writing rather than formal writing when I see changes like that
katakana might be avoided in formal writing though..
 
Would they use ateji for usually katakana words when there is no alternative kanji?
Or would they do something like use the chinese character instead?
I think an example I've seen was 頁
 
ssb
1:38 PM
when writing out the full country I think it may be appropriate to use katakana
or
like if there's a katakana word they want to use
i don't think they will go to extreme lengths to avoid it
if there's a more formal alternative to a word written in katakana they might be more inclined to use it
 
What about my example with 頁? and 米 as well I think
 
ssb
i'm not an expert on this but i've never seen 頁 in kanji like that before
 
I remember seeing it on a fairly large japanese shopping website, but I can't remember where
Anyways, thanks for you help :)
 
2:22 PM
@Chocolate さん. こんにちは
 
ちは
@snailplane 用いて用いる?ww
@snailplane Why is it only in English and Japanese?
Oh! I can't correct the Japanese
 
2:51 PM
@小太郎 I think we often see「米国」「英国」「日米」etc. in newspapers
and TV news headlines
(I don't remember if NHK announcers say アメリカ or 米国... Probably アメリカ)
米国>>2 characters アメリカ>>4 characters
日米>>2 日本とアメリカ>>7
Maybe 字数を少なくするため?
 
3:21 PM
@Chocolate I don't know, I think the people who run Lang-8 are Japanese and learning English
@Chocolate I read 用いて用いる and I got confused! :-)
@小太郎 Some kanji just aren't used anymore... or aren't used for some words
No one writes 虞, I think
Unless they want to seem old-fashioned
Or like... writing かわす as 躱す seems unusual to me
I don't know :-)
Trying to think of a good example
Oh, how about アメリカ
People don't usually write 亜米利加 anymore!
 
 
1 hour later…
4:50 PM
heh... twitter seems to tend towards kanji density... "本因坊戦:高尾紳路九段が4年ぶりに挑戦権"
 
Yikes!
That looks like headlinese to me
 
It is... also helps if you play go, so that you'll recognize the technical terms
 
I don't play go, but I did learn some go vocab as a side-effect of learning kanji
It comes in handy sometimes because people use terms from shogi/go metaphorically
like 駒
 
5:12 PM
I get the ビイドロ part and the エビ part, but I'm curious about the カクレ part
隠れ seems to show up in a bunch of shrimp names, ◯◯カクレエビ
in Periclemenes and Ancylomenes at least
a-ha
It's an 亜科
I just noticed it said that :-)
Wikipedia doesn't list that 亜科
It's Pontoniinae
 

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