Jaami'at StackExchange al-Islamyya

Al Ummat

5:07 PM

@Ali

Asalam Alaikum

Ali

@AlUmmat Wa alaykum Asslam :)

@ashes999 What makes you disagree reopening the islam.stackexchange.com/questions/5466/…

Al Ummat

@AlUmmat Also prophet is not walking among us, but he is alive - as Quran says - to reply our Salam (because it's Wajib) and to hear what we are asking him to ask Allah, and that's enough. We don't need him to do something by his earth life. — Ali 15 mins ago

What Ayah are you referring to?

Ali

Do you accept prophet is alive?

وَلَا تَحْسَبَنَّ الَّذِينَ قُتِلُوا فِي سَبِيلِ اللَّهِ أَمْوَاتًا

Al Ummat

@Ali Yes, but not physically, as Abu Bakr (may Allah be pleased with Him) made quite clear

Ali

For sure he is not physically alive. But we are not talking about the physical works.

Do you accept prophet has connection to this world? to us?

ashes999

5:18 PM

@Ali my reasoning is pretty well documented in chat, just scroll up.

Al Ummat

Other than dreams and wake visions no, for there is nothing in the sunnah saying otherwise

to my knowledge

Ali

و يَسْتَبْشِرُونَ بِالَّذِينَ لَمْ يَلْحَقُواْ بِهِم مِّنْ خَلْفِهِمْ أَلاَّ خَوْفٌ عَلَيْهِمْ وَ لاَ هُمْ يَحْزَنُونَ

Al Ummat

of course

Ali

Who do Bisharah? martyrs. To whom? The people who are not joint them: The alive people.

When Allah says they are alive, and they are connected to the alive people, what is our reason to don't believe and say they can not do anything to us?

Al Ummat

can you provide surah and number for that Ayah?

Ali

5:21 PM

It follows just after
وَلَا تَحْسَبَنَّ الَّذِينَ قُتِلُوا فِي سَبِيلِ اللَّهِ أَمْوَاتًا

آل عمران - 170

Al Ummat

@Ali I am not denying that when a person physically dies he is also spiritually dead no

ashes999

I think this is one of the differences in sunni vs. shi'a theology. As sunnis, we believe that rasulullah is dead -- "wa maa muhammadun illa rasool, ... a fa in maata aw qutila, ..." plus the statement of Abu Bakr: "As for the death of this life, it's over" -- vs. shi'as and or groups who believe that rasulullah still lives, and can hear things, appear at gatherings in spirit, etc.

Ali

@ashes999 Dear brother, we are not talking about Sunni or Shia. we are just talking Quran that is accepted by all muslims around the world. No matter Sunni or Shia

as @AlUmmat said I also believe he is physically passed away. His body is no more between us. But Allah trains us not to think all the people whom bodies are not between us are "dead". They are "alive"

@ashes999 and also many brothers do the same greetings in front of the grave of prophet Muhammad, and among them there are many Sunni and many Shia.

Al Ummat

I wonder if the first three generations did this, make dua to the Prophet?

does anyone know?

Ali

@AlUmmat The answer is simple: Even Fatima (bin Al Rasul) did it

Al Ummat

5:34 PM

@Ali proof?

Ali

لما رمس رسول الله(صلى الله عليه وآله) جاءت فاطمة فوقفت على قبره(صلى الله عليه وآله)وأخذت قبضة من تراب القبر ووضعت على عينها وبكت وأنشأت تقول:
ماذا على من شمَّ تربة أحمد أن لا يشُمَّ مدى الزمان غواليا
صُبَّتْ عليَّ مصائبٌ لو أنّها صُبَّت على الأيّام صِرنَ لياليا

المواهب اللَّدنية ج 3 ص 400

مطالب أولي النهى ج1 ص926 باب في احکام المصاب

سلوة الكئيب بوفاة الحبيب ابن ناصر الدين دمشقي ص162 باب رثاء السيدة فاطمة و ص190 باب اول من زار قبره

المغني ابن قدامه ج 2 ص 411 باب الندب و النياحة چاپ دار الکتب العربي بيروت و ج2 ص213 چاپ اول دار الفکر بيروت 1405
الشرح الکبير ابن قدامة ج2 ص 430 باب الندب و النياحة
نظم درر السمطين زرندي حنفي ص 181 باب محلها من ابيها...

ashes999

You guys can argue all you want. I'm just saying it out for you. It's not as simple as "Qur'an says" because the Qur'an says "follow the messenger," which means follow the sunnah. But, out of all the groups of Muslims, only sunni Muslims really do it (as part of their theology) and take it seriously.

You can argue, but you're just arguing over something scholars already discussed :)

Al Ummat

are there any others, it is good to note that because one does it it doesn't mean it is right, for instance Ibn Umar (may Allah be pleased of them both) once was teaching something and the students said that Abu Bakr and Ummar said otherwise, and Ibn Ummar became angry and said, are you telling me what they said while I am telling you what the prophet said

I think this is in the Muwatta' I will find one moment

Ali

@ashes999 فَبَشِّرْ عِبَادِ الَّذِينَ يَسْتَمِعُونَ الْقَوْلَ فَيَتَّبِعُونَ أَحْسَنَهُ أُوْلَئِكَ الَّذِينَ هَدَاهُمُ اللَّهُ وَأُولَئِكَ هُمْ أُوْلُوا الأَلْبَابِ

Al Ummat

ok @ashes999 :) @Ali please, i do not want to argue any more

for all I am concerned it is shirk

ashes999

5:43 PM

This is also a good time to remind you guys, and everybody who reads this later, that this is not a site to debate sunni vs. shi'a views. It is a place to state those views, sure, and defend them if that is what the question asks for specifically; it's not a place to argue and debate about which is "right" and which is "wrong," or which is "authentic" and which is "baseless," or which is "true" and which is "your interpretation."

3

In fact, mods routinely (at least myself) delete overly argumentative comment threads like this; questions like this alhamdulilah get quickly shut down (closed and DVed)

Ali

@ashes999 Extremely for this purpose I didn't say anything about Sunni or Shia, nor used any Shia hadith, I talked only from the holy Quran

ashes999

@Ali I'm not going to argue with you either. You can try to say it however you want to say it; we are very much on the watch for the kinds of inappropriate content I outlined in my epic speech above.

I suggest you browse the questions on the site; it's quite common that people of every sect and group, of every type of Muslim, will bring Qur'an, and interpret it a different way. Understand what we're trying to do here and what you can and can't, should and shouldn't, say on the site.

@AlUmmat you've been around for a while so I assume this is mostly a reminder for you anyway

"Remind, for indeed reminders benefit the believers" (Ayah)

Al Ummat

yes @ashes999 :)

Ali

@ashes999 Thanks, but I don't think what we did was argument in a negative case

If you think talking in a very polite manner about Quran is wrong

or trying for better understanding of Islam can be done without thinking about the other possibilities

OK, so there is no need for this site or any other site

Everybody can follow what his parents have done

There is a far difference between a constructive discussion

that the people are polite to each other

and kindly share their ideas

and talk on the base of what is in common between all muslims

with a destructive argument

that people insult each other and say: You are wrong because the scholar I am following is the only person right in the world!

It is a problem of all of us: What is Shirk and what is not

and I will be very happy if some brother like you or @AlUmmat or anybody else would provide me some new ideas

Finally I think all the moments we put in this site is worship of Allah

@AlUmmat It was a very nice time with you :)

Thanks for your attention

pray me brother

Al Ummat

6:02 PM

@Ali Pray for me as well and don't forget the others :)

Ali

@AlUmmat For sure brother. Please remind your last sentence: Saying (Pray for me) to the someone like me is for sure not Shirk. How it can be Shirk if we say it to the prophet Muhammad :)

@AlUmmat في امان الله

@ashes999 في امان الله اخي الکريم

goldPseudo

relevant meta post on christianity.SE:

33

Q: Brothers, we are not Christians‼

I am a Christian. You say you are. But we are not. It seems that a lot of folks are having a hard time wrapping their heads around the scope of this site. While I respect the SE staff* and have been impressed with the effort they have taken (and judgement they have shown) in nurturing this site ...

(feel free to swap out the word "Christians" for "Muslims")

goldPseudo

6:21 PM

one particular quote i like from that post:

If you are more inclined to resent rather than celebrate the differences between us, then this may not be the site for you.

Al Ummat

7:35 PM

@Ali who is Prophet Danyal? what is the Arabic name?

goldPseudo

دانيال

Al Ummat

I am not familiar with this one, is he in the Quran?

I never came across him

Ali

@AlUmmat There have been thousands of prophets, the name of less than 30 is in Quran

goldPseudo

not in the qur'an. not sure if he's in the hadiths.

Ali

So it's not strange that his name is not in Quran

goldPseudo

7:41 PM

probably plenty in the israiliyyat

old testament of the bible contains the Book of Daniel.

Al Ummat

ok

Ali

Yes, he is a famous prophet of Bani-Israil

See this: qwled.com/vb/t170144.html

Al Ummat

ok, well I for myself rather not take names for Prophet's that are not in Quran or Shaih or Hasan Hadith

strong Ahadith

Ali

Or this: afaqattaiseer.com/vb/showthread.php?p=36662

There are strong Ahadith about him in the last site

دانيال

النبي دانيال كان ممن تم أسرهم ونقلهم إلى بابل إبان السبي البابلي لبيت المقدس وتدميرها على زمن نبوخذ نصر. دانيال نبي من أنبياء بني إسرائيل ممن لا يُعلم وقته على اليقين، إلا أنه كان في الزمن الذي بعد داود ، وقبل زكريا و يحيى عليهم السلام، وكان في الوقت الذي قدم فيه بختنصر إلى بيت المقدس وخربه، وقتل فيه من قتل من بني إسرائيل وسبى من سبى وأحرق التوراة. وقيل: إنه أسر دانيال الأصغر، وقيل: بل وجدوه ميتاً عندما دخل بختنصر بيت المقدس، والظاهر أنه كان في بني إسرائيل دانيال الأكبر و دانيال الأصغر. والله أعلم. وقد أورد ابن أبي الدنيا بإسناده إلى عبد الله بن أبي الهذيل أن بختنصر سلط أسدين على دانيال...

Al Ummat

I thought it was Ilyas that was thrown into a hole and have lions

Ali

7:47 PM

No

Ilyas is different

rafed.net/booklib/…

There is a full chapter of Ahadith about him in Qisas-Al-Anbia (Prophet's stories) book

I provided the link to you

So you may add all of these and update your answer

@goldPseudo My question about Quranic dictionary is still closed

How to modify it to matches this site?

Al Ummat

@Ali it still is a list question

Ali

I added that just after @ThecurcudileHunter asked me

in his question to provide him

@AlUmmat Always there are a list of different answers for EVERY question, aren't there?

The unique property of this SE sites is the ability of people to up/down vote what they like/dislike among the LIST of answers

goldPseudo

real questions have answers, not lists of items.

Al Ummat

@Ali That is not what I mean :) What I mean is you will receive different answers about different dictionaries according to the answerer feelings, which may not be the same for another person. Hence it is not constructive for this site.

goldPseudo

list-style questions have historically not worked well with the SE model across any number of sites.

Ali

7:54 PM

@goldPseudo I have seen you are also in Stackoverflow

The are really great list questions with great answers there, aren't them?

goldPseudo

stack overflow is a whole beast in and of itself.

Ali

Yes, but it's a good experience

Don't you agree for EVERY question there would be a list of answers?

Specially in this site that people have really different views and everything is not so simply technical zero/one

goldPseudo

have you read good subjective bad subjective yet? highly recommended.

Ali

@goldPseudo I strongly agree the page you provided

But we are talking about a different issue

I don't want to focus on my own question only

I fully agreed you for the question last night, and I updated it

But I think more freedom is needed here to attract more collaboration of the other people

I have found this great site a few days ago

goldPseudo

we as a site are still trying to hammer out our policy as to how to deal with the inherent subjectivity of everything.

which is a major reason we're still in beta.

Ali

8:00 PM

Exactly!

We are in Beta unless we gather a good activity of the other people

How we can increase the activity?

One answer is to provide more freedom for broader range of questions

goldPseudo

it's not just activity, it's the right activity that needs to go up.

Ali

I don't mean to remove the red-lines

Yes

and put the red lines to define the right activity

goldPseudo

if we're not attracting the type of users that Stack Exchange (the business entity) wants associated with their brand, we're no better off.

Ali

@goldPseudo There should be a very clear list of red lines

I think some judgements about closing questions is made up of "FEELINGS"

Please think about it: Subjective closing questions not Objective closing questions

goldPseudo

agreed.

but without a set policy in place, moderators pretty much have nothing to go on but "feelings".

"I don't know how to define a bad post, but I'll know it when I see it."

Ali

8:05 PM

@goldPseudo Just look at the above of this page

there is another question of me, about ما هی الارجی آیه closed

The question is exactly what prophet Muhammad (PBUH) asked

goldPseudo

the moderators don't set policy, nor does the SE team; that needs to be set by the community (i.e. via consensus in meta)

Ali

The answer is unique and objective

But the question is still closed, because of feelings

There are a few posts just in this page, some lines upper:

Al Ummat

@Ali like he said the policy needs to be set by the community in the meta

Ali

It does not show me anymore, but one of the users said: I don't see anything bad in the question, but I FEEL it should be still closed!

@AlUmmat Today we are making a road

If we have errors

Al Ummat

@Ali I believe that was me

Ali

8:08 PM

if we make decisions based on our feelings, not the evidences that can be provided to Allah

the road can go to nowhere!

and this great potential can collapse!

I extremely agree that we should keep red-lines

Hard red lines

Insulting the other people

Sectionarism

And anything breaking this site to be useful for All muslism

Should NOT be tolerated at all

But normal questions that do not cross these redlines

we can at least be more democratic

Let them to exist open

and see what the other people judge about it

goldPseudo

the whole system is already democratic; any user with enough rep can vote to reopen a question.

Ali

@goldPseudo Why to close and then make the opportunity for reopening?

goldPseudo

it only takes 500 rep

why open and then make the opportunity for closing?

Ali

Do you know how destructive is closing somebodie's question?

A good question: Why open and then make opportunity for closing

Because democracy has been always in open societies

If we close many things that we FEEL are not good

there there would be no space for different ideas to appear

for the other people to talk

there would be nothing to vote!

and there would be no interested user to open or close

I saw some post in Meta that some user asked how to remove my account?

It's not good at all

goldPseudo

the stack exchange model is not for everyone.

Ali

8:16 PM

Yes

goldPseudo

nor is it trying to be.

Ali

But is this really the model of stackexchange?

@goldPseudo I am fully respecting you and all people who spend time here

goldPseudo

if we attract everybody, we end up being useful to nobody.

Ali

I think all of the minutes you are spending here is worship to Allah

But I think the atmosphere is closer here than other Stack Exchange sites

In Stackoverflow for example

goldPseudo

there are plenty of extant forums that sacrifice quality for quantity. we are not one of them.

Ali

8:18 PM

how many questions are put every day and among them what percent of them are closed?

Quality is exactly what I target

How quality is made?

One easy solution:

If you have many interested people

goldPseudo

we are not stackoverflow. the comparison is hardly fair.

Ali

that up and downvote

goldPseudo

stack overflow is significantly more objective in scope than we are.

Ali

it brings Quality in nature

I agree

But here

we have a broader differences of views among the users

so we should be much more tolerate rather than Stackoverflow

Otherwise we will miss most of the future people

goldPseudo

stack overflow also tends to attract a far different crowd who better "get" the SE model, just due to it's programmer target.

Ali

8:21 PM

@goldPseudo Do you agree we need more users here?

Do you agree more users will bring the quality you are looking

?

Just think about this sentence, nothing more:

Al Ummat

@Ali it depends, alot of users or some have the forum mentality

goldPseudo

it depends on the users.'

Ali

Closing is the EASIEST method of moderation, but not the BEST

@AlUmmat When I joined Stackoverflow I also had forum mentality

But I learned!

goldPseudo

we need enough of an active core of users who not only "get" the Stack Exchange model, but also actively work to improve the site.

Ali

100% Agreed

IMPROVEMENT != CLOSING

IMPROVEMENT == REFINEMENT

goldPseudo

8:24 PM

closing is a part of refinement.

Ali

Just try to REFINE bad questions, not to simply CLOSE them

goldPseudo

if a bad question is open, then it will attract bad answers.

Ali

When the question is refined, the answers would be refined also

because they would be no longer pointing the refined question

@goldPseudo We are defining the ETHICS of this site

goldPseudo

why would you ever want answers that no longer even answer the question?

Ali

They would be modified

and if not

they would be downvoted and just ignored

goldPseudo

8:27 PM

why would you want any user to spend time writing an answer, if that post is just going to become irrelevant?

why would you want any user who posted an answer in good faith to be downvoted because the question was changed?

is that any way to attract people to post high-quality answers?

Ali

We are not the only people who know what question is good and what is bad

After a while most of users will learn

and they don't put their times anymore on bad questions

Al Ummat

@Ali What if they go before they learn

Ali

they just put comments or try to modify the answer

@AlUmmat What user is more likely to go? A user whom all posts are closed

or a user whom posts are kindly refined?

we can be more kind to eachother

we can teach the new people how to post good questions

Al Ummat

agreed

Ali

I think kindness is something we should learn from prophet Muhammad

Al Ummat

8:30 PM

but isn't it a good way for others to learn

Ali

Being tolerate is something we should learn from him

Al Ummat

by having good questions on the front page?

Ali

@AlUmmat How prophet trained the other people?

Of irrelevant actions, irrelevant questions?

Ignored them?

Cut relation to them?

Al Ummat

no he took care of them

he fixed the error

Ali

Or just was tolerate to them?

Al Ummat

8:31 PM

isn't that what closing does

Ali

Exactly

Al Ummat

we encourage people to comment

so that a post can be modified

and since closed question can still be edited

it can be fixed while it is closed

and then reopened

Ali

@AlUmmat we encourage people to comment is VERY GOOD

Closing question just after it is added is most of the times bad (If the question has not passed the red lines)

If a question is insulting the others

REMOVE IT

no problem

But if a question is not crossing the red lines

Al Ummat

ok perhaps then closing a question should be as you say, after giving a comment

Ali

All I say is:

Al Ummat

8:34 PM

now if the question isn't edited soon enogh

Ali

If you want to close

Al Ummat

than it would be closed

Ali

OK, no problem

Al Ummat

if not than it would be distructive

Ali

BUT for Allah be more PATIENT

Let the asker himself modify it while the question is still open

Closing a question is sometimes like slapping the face of the askeer

asker

Be a bit more patient

Let the asker modify

Just put a comment

For the sake of Allah go and see how broad are questions in judaism.stackexchange.com

See how many of them are closed?

See from what diverse topics they are asking

-1

Q: When to go out to fight the enemy?

I'm sure everyone knows what's going on right now in Eretz Yisrael with the rockets being fired at the Israeli population from Gaza and the response of the IDF. I have heard many people say (charedim) that there is no need for the "Iron Dome" system that is in place to help shoot down in coming...

sources-mekorot army-military-war

2

Q: What is the appropriate response of someone outside Israel during a war?

During a war or large scale military operation what are some of the best things for a person living in chutz l'arertz to do? Is saying tehillim and doing extra chesed enough? Should a person run to Israel and join the effort? Is there a middle ground? Sourced answers only, please.

eretz-yisrael chutz-laaretz current-events army-military-war

I am sure "WHAT IS THE APPROPRIATE RESPONSE OF SOME MUSLIM OUTSIDE GAZA DURING A WAR" it would be immediately closed

Of: list question,

Subjective

Non-Constructive

Or some reason like this

Wouldn't it?

goldPseudo

8:41 PM

again, hardly a fair comparison; Israel has a strong religious significance, Gaza does not.

Ali

So you closed this question, right?

goldPseudo

it would probably be closed as off-topic, but if you feel that the site scope should include such questions, then you could just bring it up on meta.

make your case, let the community decide.

Ali

I am just talking how BROAD is the atmosphere there

How OPEN are them

Let people to ask

and community to decide

goldPseudo

what you don't seem to grasp is that we hardly even have a "community" yet.

Ali

:)

goldPseudo

8:43 PM

we have a small handful of active core users. hardly a community.

Ali

Yes

You are absolutely right

And just figure a new user

who posted three questions

goldPseudo

as a moderator, i so want that i could just leave the closures and deletions to the community.

Ali

2 of them are closed immediately

goldPseudo

but the fact remains, there are not enough active users with enough reputation (and enough willingness) to actually do such with any regularity.

so it falls on the moderators to keep order until the community builds to the point that it can self-moderate.

Ali

I appreciate your responsibility

goldPseudo

8:45 PM

you want to expand the scope of the site, feel free. bring it up on meta.

Ali

I respect you so much

goldPseudo

meta is where the community is built. not in comments, not in chat.

Ali

I have already posted in meta about more tolerance

goldPseudo

and you see how much activity that post has received so far.

that is the community.

Ali

:-)

goldPseudo

8:46 PM

if meta is not active, the community is not active.

Ali

The community would be always small if we would act in a closing manner

Please believe me

Open society

is the need

is the principle

of democracy

of progress

you want to moderate the best?

Ok, put comments

If you have more time

provide a better forming of the question

But don't close a question unless it crosses the red lines

goldPseudo

there are no red lines.

like i said, look on meta.

THAT is where the red lines are defined.

Ali

By red lines I mean insulting, sectionarism

You are now in Canada, yes?

goldPseudo

at best, i have a vague sense of general guidelines as to how the Stack Exchange model works, by which i judge accordingly.

i am.

Ali

and earlier?

goldPseudo

8:52 PM

what earlier?

Ali

before canada?

Have you lived in a country of closed atmosphere?

Have you FEELED the difference of open and closed society?

Al Ummat

@Ali :) brother, we get the point your making :)

Ali

@AlUmmat Al-Hamdu Lillah

Al Ummat

but it would seem you aren't

if you see a problem

you post it on the meta

the meta is where the community is built

Ali

I told: I already posted

My post is there

Al Ummat

8:55 PM

hence if you want to build, you must go there not here

Ali

right now

goldPseudo

i was born in Canada.

Ali

@goldPseudo So you have no feeling of what is a closed society

Because you have always been in an open society

who permits a muslim to be muslim

and someone else to be someone else

but the case is different in many coutries

@goldPseudo Freedom is a very big gift from Allah

We can make borders

and close everybody who cross the borders

every post who cuts the borders

But if the borders are very limited

there would be no people but a handful

Specially when the borders are based on the feelings

goldPseudo

freedom is not the same as anarchy.

Ali

I talked about anarchy?

I argues let everybody do everything?

What I say is:

define the borders

goldPseudo

8:59 PM

you're arguing that we should not enforce the rules if it hurts someone's feelings. that's anarchy.

Ali

and try the people to respect the borders

NO!!!

What I say

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