I won't be able to make it to the Town Hall Chat, but I'll add my answers to the digest on Meta afterwards.

I also won't be able to make the chat, but I'll be around a lot of today and tomorrow...

(turns on lights)...

(whistles in empty room)...

(Testing, testing) ...

OK, works.

Ah, I see people are turning on the lights and heat in here. (:

Hi Rebecca, thanks for organizing this

(:

Uhh, are there any complementary snacks?

I did the snacks, but it is BYOB. (:

rings a bell

Hi (:

Welcome to the TeX Town Hall Chat

We're just here to get to know the candidates and ask questions regarding the candidates views on moderation that may help in voting.

A few notes about the format:

The format is open, feel free to ask your question(s) unprompted, however please be mindful of whether or not candidates have answered the previous questions so that they don't get behind and start missing questions. Other than that, feel free to jump in.

Candidates, please use the reply feature so that questions and their answers are linked together. (Hover your mouse over the left of the message, click the down arrow, click reply)

When a question is asked, I'll star it - please star it yourself also to help. Please save stars for the questions so that candidates can refer to the star list to make sure they haven't missed a question.

@Josh will be creating a digest version of the town hall chat after it is completed. This digest will take the form of a question on meta, containing all the questions asked as well as their answers for easier reading.

There's a system message up on the site, so we may get some stragglers joining us.

The candidates I see here are: @MartinScharrer, @MatthewLeingang, @JosephWright, and @lockstep. @Seamus and @Caramdir will be responding later I believe.

With that, I think I've got all my initial messages, so I open the floor to y'all. Who has a question to start us off? (:

How much time do you anticipate spending on the site? How much of that would be "moderating"?

Ok, I'll go. (:

@RebeccaChernoff TOO LATE

Foiled by Mrozek. Dammit!

@MichaelMrozek I tend to check in regularly through the day, but very little is 'moderating' as there is actually not that much to do, at the moment

(As I am a pro tem moderator I guess I have a feel for how much work there currently is

@MichaelMrozek I spend about an hour to an hour-and-a-half per day checking in, answering questions, and voting. I don't think that would change as a mod. I would probably reduce the number of answers I gave if moderating took too much time.

@MichaelMrozek I'm checking the site several times a day (actually too often). I will do the moderating as it comes. I don't think it will be so much, at least not to much more as I do a lot of editing and flagging messages already.

Is there a feature of TeX-SE that you are unhappy with, and would like to develop, change or promote?

@MartinTapankov One issue I guess is that new users can't comment and can't post to meta so tend to post 'answers' to get noticed

@MartinTapankov This is rather SO general, but I don't like zero-score accepted answers. Accepting an answer should also mean upvoting it, even for low-rep users.

:571086

@lockstep You mean that accepting should automatically upvote the answer?

@JosephWright Exactly.

@lockstep Sounds entirely reasonable to me

@MartinTapankov I really like the SE engine; it's so much different than other support systems (mailing lists, wikis, etc, so it's hard to say. I think there can be some growth on article-type pages for reference. CW questions are good but they don't always develop into informative, cohesive articles.

Where do you stand on the populism vs elitism scale?

(I guess my issue is also SO in general, not tex.sx specifically)

@MartinTapankov I would like to have some more javascript based features, like a Select code button I suggested on meta. A automatic LaTeX preview would be cool, but I don't think it will be implemented.

@JosephWright And the "Tenacious" and "Unsung Hero" badges would become badges for lots of score-one answers.

@MartinScharrer Certainly Select code would be very handy when testing out a problem

@LevBishop Both should be allowed side-by-side and are important. On the other hand I see a lot of beginner issues which could be addressed with some good CW.

@MartinScharrer I think that experience suggests that newer users will always miss the existing information and ask their own question

@LevBishop I wouldn't want to be elitist even if I complied with the requirements. :-)

(Not just on {TeX})

@JosephWright I already made a proof-of-concept script: meta.tex.stackexchange.com/questions/821/…

@LevBishop I wonder exactly what you mean: a good answer is a good answer, I'd hope

@JosephWright Yes, true, but it might reduce the number and the CWs would make create link targets.

@JosephWright For example if someone asks a question that is perfectly answered in the UK-tex-faq. Should we reproduce that answer here and try to hope that the stackexchange model will lead to it improving over time? Or should we just point to the FAQ (with a summary) to teach the new user where to look in the future.

@JosephWright I agree which is why you need humans with brains to point out the similarities. SE works well here with the vote-to-close-duplicate feature.

@LevBishop I'd favour a complete answer (taking the point that {TeX} is intended to 'stand alone' in that sense) but also a link to the FAQ when appropriate

@LevBishop The FAQ should be definite linked too, but tex.sx should stay on its own feet, so summarizing as much as possible is important

(I should point out I know Robin Fairbairns, who writes the FAQ)

@LevBishop There should be two answers: the first one a quick link to the UK TeX entry, the second a more complete one with sample code. Both are useful.

@LevBishop IIRC, I have written quite a few "pointer-plus-summary" answers. But my main area of expertise is biblatex, and the FAQ doesn't tell much about this package (and still refers to it as beta version).

How would you handle a situation where another mod closed/deleted/etc a question that you feel shouldn't have been?

@RebeccaChernoff This community is very friendly so I think a simple meta question could resolve it. If not, I guess that's why there's an odd number of moderators. :-)

@RebeccaChernoff Discuss it with him and/or on meta. This isn't a big problem here on tex.sx so far I see it. Only few questions are getting closed and these are always duplicates.

@RebeccaChernoff It's not happened to date, partly because the existing team has been very much responsive to the community. I hope that the incoming moderators will take the same approach.

I'd also go with the meta approach if the need arises

How would you deal with a user who produced a steady stream of valuable answers, but tends to generate a large number of arguments/flags from comments?

@RebeccaChernoff If our difference of opinion would be about a duplicate-or-not close call, I would discuss it on meta. But as far as I know from skimming meta, this problem is a rather abstract one on tex.sx.

@MichaelMrozek Another abstract one at present. I guess I'd talk to the other moderators about a strategy, then probably make contact with the user directly using the messaging system available to mods

@MichaelMrozek I would ask him via mod channels to be more civil towards fellow site-users.

@MichaelMrozek Tough one. Again, we are lucky in this community that we don't have such users. This might be a good application of gallery chat (Do we still have that?). I didn't know about the messaging system @JosephWright mentioned

@MatthewLeingang Mods can send something to the 'inbox' that you get for comments, etc., from the moderator tools on a user's page

@MatthewLeingang I was just assuming it had to exist.

@lockstep It was added relatively recently, and I think CCs the other mods (it's not been used at all on {TeX} yet)

@JosephWright It does, and the community coordinators

@MichaelMrozek As I see that there wasn't a case like that so far here. People which are very knowledgeable in TeX are normally quite grown-up. If it happens the user should be contacted to stop/reduce the behavior.

@lockstep Mods can also see the e-mail addresses people have registered, if necessary

@MatthewLeingang they're not private, anyone can still read, just not everyone can write.

@MatthewLeingang What is 'gallery chat'?

@MatthewLeingang Gallery is visible to everyone (mods can make private rooms though, which are hidden), and there's no way to force the other person to join; you'd need to contact them to tell them to join, so the problem is recursive :)

What do you plan to do to assist the site outside of responding to flags and standard close/delete maintenance?

@JosephWright tex.stackexchange.com/privileges/gallery-chat-rooms

@MatthewLeingang Ah I see: thanks

@RebeccaChernoff I'm a fanboy for the site by promoting it to my colleagues and mentees. I will continue to do such, mod or no

@RebeccaChernoff I like to encourage the creation of some key material as CWs, like best practice, common errors and a sitemap. As well as some javascript based extra functionality (which I might program by myself).

@RebeccaChernoff Like @MatthewLeingang, promotion seems like a good idea (I link handy questions from my blog when appropriate)

@RebeccaChernoff I guess also the occasional sweep through the unanswered questions is a good idea

Has being a candidate for moderator changed how you think about the site? (follow-up: if yes, would that go back to how it was before if you don't get to be a moderator)

@RebeccaChernoff Refining the system of tags -- especially thinking hard about where one tag area ends and another one starts.

@RebeccaChernoff and yes, more & better tag wikis!

@MartinScharrer I take it that you feel the tags do work for the 'average' user (there was some early discussion on meta about the value or otherwise of tags)

@AndrewStacey Err, no :-)

@JosephWright I'm not sure about the "average user", but I think the tag system has a great potential if used correctly. And for that the tag wiki should be written so that everyone has a chance to know what the tags are for exactly.

@AndrewStacey I don't think so. I mean, I hang out here because I like it, not because I want to change it. And to be honest, I have lots of other commitments that I should be spending my most creative energies on. So I think the same about it as I did before, and will after the election.

@AndrewStacey No, I still think the site is awesome!

@AndrewStacey I'm more aware of the "maintenance part" and how valuable the work done on meta is. If I'm not elected, my interest in meta will stay about the same (rather than mount further).

Hi together! Sorry that I'm joining late, my WLAN connection is really low.

@StefanKottwitz The questions have all been starred, so you should just be able to poke through the star list to find/answer them

@StefanKottwitz Are you at sea now?

A diamond will be attached to everything you say and have said in the past, including questions, answers and comments. Everything you will do will be seen under a different light. How do you feel about that?

@MatthewLeingang Not any more, I'm in a new town in a temporary apartment without Internet but some WLAN from the next cafe

Hmm, I don't wish to call you all liars but I think that I've seen an increase in certain activities from the candidates such as editing tag wikis and comments on meta and going about the place being pleasant. I wondered how much of that was due to being a candidate.

@MichaelMrozek I guess it might be more helpful in the long term if the diamonds were 'static', as if we look really long term then the moderators will change over time

@AndrewStacey You asked if it changed how they think about the site, not their activity on the site :). I think that effect happens on all the sites during elections, people want to show they're capable

@MichaelMrozek That said, if you are a polite person then there should be no issue

Okay, next question: What ideas do you have to ensure that the majority of running the site remains with the community? (as opposed to people thinking, "We have new moderators, let them do it all")

@MichaelMrozek I will feel somewhat awkward about it.

@MichaelMrozek (Also, if you end up as a mod you can go back and edit comments !)

@AndrewStacey Caught. It's true that I renewed interest and activity here, but I haven't changed my outlook on the site.

@MichaelMrozek Remember this is a 'reverse election': the aim is to not accidentally get elected :-)

@MichaelMrozek I can only think of a few times when I said something I've regretted. So I don't have a problem standing behind the majority of my acitivity

@Michael: I was trying to find out if that change in activity stemmed from a change in attitude. Maybe I didn't phrase it so well, but it seems as though the candidates are taking an interest in aspects of the site that hadn't previously been a big concern to them. I like this, and I would like it to continue whoever is elected.

@MichaelMrozek I don't think the attitude of other users will change toward us. Here mostly shown knowledge and effort is important. New moderators just have to be careful to adept to their new power (so that a single close vote closes a question, isn't it?)

@AndrewStacey One interesting part to this is 'what exactly is the community'. If you look through the user list, there is a long tail

@AndrewStacey To a certain extent yes, but my "retagging spree" regarding the {figures} tag had nothing to do with being a candidate.

@MartinScharrer Yes, moderator votes are binding (hence the moderators tend only to vote if they are really sure or if there are already 4 votes cast)

@MichaelMrozek The diamond reminds me that my messages might seem as somehow official. I will remember that and mark very subjective messages accordingly. However, past questions, answers and comments and those in the future I see in the same meaning as of a member of the community, if moderator or not, not yet or not any more.

@AndrewStacey One idea would be to capture the energy in users who arrive and quickly shine. Train them on good tagging and be an example for good question/answer coaching. Then your replacements are in wait.

@AndrewStacey As more people gain enough rep. to vote to close, 'proding' them to use these powers may be necessary

@AndrewStacey The number of 2k users which can edit posts etc. is not that high and people which got used to edit and flags thing will, I think, keep doing so. If this is not so and starts to be a problem a simple meta thread should be enough for this community to get things rolling again.

@JosephWright Which prompts the question: how do we get the tail more involved? (But I don't feel that that's particularly a question that a moderator has to answer.)

@MatthewLeingang I'll see your TeX and raise you one Lilypond.

@AndrewStacey I'm not in the least afraid that the other users would leave the community mods high and dry. Also, the number of high (say, 3000+) reputation users who are particularly able to assist the mods has been steadily rising.

@AndrewStacey There are a lot of people 'passing by' to use (almost always) LaTeX to write a thesis - we can give them good, accurate advice and hope they stick with TeX

@AndrewStacey One thing is to make sure that anything at all controversial always gets a meta thread before action

Do you think that competitions are a Good Thing, Bad Thing, or Other?

@AndrewStacey I like it to post a constructive comment instead of just taking action. Such as "hey, doesn't this look like a duplicate to this or that? Do the answers there help?" This still allows meaningful answers which might add more to the other answers and it points people to vote to close if they agree.

Mods need patience with new users do you guys have it?

@AndrewStacey Could you elaborate a bit?

We've got just a couple minutes left, so if you've got a final question, get it in now or forever hold your peace!

@AndrewStacey If competitions are fun and belong to the TeX subject, I like it.

@YiannisLazarides I like to think so - the pro tem team have taken a 'slowly, slowly' attitude to closing, merging, etc. and I think that's worked well

There was some talk in the early days of having competitions, maybe best design of some graphic, or best solution of some complicated codey thing.

@AndrewStacey You mean competing answers? Yes, that's normally a good thing.

@YiannisLazarides Mods do not need patience as much as they need a text file (or starred meta page) with a standard list of canned comments that sound patient.

@Martin: No, specific questions set up as competitions.

@YiannisLazarides (There was some comment on this on the "teacher's' lounge" chat site - I suspect other sites expect a much more 'rapid' moderating approach

Do you notice any trend for certain attitudes, or types of questions [answers] here that you feel should be discouraged from this site? I don't mean obviously offensive or unreadable or wrong stuff that can be closed (and maybe deleted), rather stuff that takes the site into a direction that will potentially make it "worse" in the future.

@Rebecca: Spoilsport, it was just getting interesting ...

LOL

@Mathew sound patient is ok with me.

@AndrewStacey Provided they are on-topic I think it's fine

If the candidates can stay and are willing, and there are more questions...well, that's up to y'all. (:

But I did ask for an hour of y'alls time.

@YiannisLazarides My reply to the first person who wanted to prod me to nominate myself was "I'm not patient". But I'll try to improve, I promise. ;-)

@YiannisLazarides I think so, at least the PC interface allows me to overcome my anger before I answer :-)

@LevBishop No, I think we've been pretty lucky in this respect

@lockstep I for one I am very happy you nominated yourself.

@RebeccaChernoff Besides janitors work mods should assist with helpful comments, that's what I like to do and what I see as responsibility--being a guide to the site.

@AndrewStacey They could be very enlightening, but should not be overused or to aggressive.

@YiannisLazarides Thank you. I'm looking forward to at least one "3rd choice" vote. :-)

@lockstep: You would do better than that, I'm sure

@LevBishop Some question go a little in the direction of "how to do X (minor thing) with the (TeX related) software Y". I do not like that direction. This questions should be asked in the forum of that software.

@MatthewLeingang This was not a question, but I starred it nevertheless.

Yes, let's get final thoughts, trail off is ok, but we need an official closing too.

@LevBishop I don't like the attitude of posting just a solution without any explanation. That should be discouraged, in my opinion.

@MatthewLeingang You still have exactly 1 rep more than me

@StefanKottwitz Yes, I have to second that. It's not very helpful or polite.

@LevBishop I don't like that some users, who contribute a lot of useful answers, don't even upvote the well written interesting questions they answered.

@MartinScharrer Presumably only because you hit the limit for today. ;-)

@StefanKottwitz I'd also agree - just a solution with no explanation is not a good long-term aid

@lockstep exactly

@StefanKottwitz Ah, but what to do about it

@LevBishop We should encourage people who answer but never vote, also use their experience in valuating other answers and questions by votes.

@MartinScharrer Downvote him to tie it up :)

@JosephWright Tell them friendly to vote more?

@JosephWright I think Stefan is doing something about it right now :) (I am guilty at least of posting solutions without explanations).

@MichaelMrozek I shouldn't have upvoted him today :-)

@LevBishop That's because votes built community power and abilities (beside marking quality in short term)

@MartinScharrer Possibly - I'm as yet undecided on the best form of contact (we are sternly warned that the mod messaging system is for 'serious' issues only)

@LevBishop I was thinking more of the 'answering but not voting' question

@MichaelMrozek Downvoting is not a good solution. Use the comments to elicit response. I see a lot of new power users that program eloquently but write poorly.

@JosephWright Perhaps commenting and asking for a short explanation. Maybe the person is receptive to flattery.

@YiannisLazarides I've seen that all candidates are patient and friendly like most of our fellow members.

@Stefan True, it is a pity we cannot vote all of them.

@YiannisLazarides Very good! Comments are better than downvoting. Downvoting should be reserved for false or bad content. I would not use it for bad form or bad behavior.

@YiannisLazarides No, you got that wrong, @MichaelMrozek just made a joke about MatthewLeingang having 1rep more then me.

@Martin Oops! can we edit chat?:)

Okay, a bit too late, but still: We have the usual "long tail" of users, i.e. the vast majority of registered users have low reputation, indicative of low contribution to the site. What do you think can be done to increase the number of people giving back and helping around?

@StefanKottwitz @YiannisLazarides: But you are right of course about down-voting isn't for bad explained code

@YiannisLazarides Yet another thing only mods can do. ;-)

@YiannisLazarides Only your last post and that only for a short while.

@MartinTapankov Related to what @AndrewStacey asked earlier

@MartinTapankov As I said there, I think we can give good answers and hope that people get engaged

@MartinTapankov We also need to 'prod' higher-rep users who don't regularly vote (on questions, to close, etc.)

@MartinTapankov Vote up well written clear questions! Say "thank you", if they post their own found solution. Encourage their progress with comments and votes.

@MartinTapankov I think it will be difficult to bring the I-need-help-with-my-thesis-First-time-latex-user to participate more in the site. We should make sure that everyone known about existing and potential privileges, like voting and the existence of meta.

@JosephWright right - good answers let people return to us. The more they get involved, the more they will contribute.

@MartinScharrer Quite - you see that in other places too

@MartinTapankov I don't see a contradiction. Low-rep users will always constitute a high percentage rate, but at the same time the absolute number of high-rep users will rise (or at least I hope so).

Let's remember some questions and ideas of this chat to return to these thoughts later on meta.

Time for the final thoughts? (;

@RebeccaChernoff All of the candidates offer great skills for the position of moderator, but please do vote - the community is the key to the site

I hope the activity will continue at this high level also after the election, in chat as well as on the meta site.

Hi I wasn't here for the chat (another meeting). But I'd just like to thank everyone of the candidates for nominating themselves; any one of you would make a fine mod and as others have mentioned, all of you will continue your participation anyway whether you're a mod or not.

I wish for a record-breaking voter turnout as a sign that this is a healthy community.

Thanks for participating everyone! (:

@lockstep I'm already convinced that this is a healthy community Especially the lot of helpful comments show that to me, even more as answers and questions and votes.

@lockstep However, just as you I hope there's a great involvement.

@StefanKottwitz To be more precise: As a sign for the distant SO owners.

@lockstep Good point!

@lockstep In that vein, I hope that those of you who have not yet voted will look at the answers here plus those yet-to-come from the candidates who will have to answer on the meta thread, and will then vote!

After-party at room 41 ;-) chat.stackexchange.com/rooms/41

@Lev Thanks for the 1 paragraph bibliography solution. Where were you when I asked this on c.t.t. :-)

@AlanMunn I don't follow c.t.t.

And, you're welcome.